The End of Men

[vwrw]

But the article referenced is not about equality, it is about the shifting sands in labor that now favor the talents of women.  The point is that such a trend is not artificial, government programs may have opened some doors but if women could not sustain themselves in their new found roles then the whole thing would collapse eventually. 

Why would women be not able to sustain their newly founded roles? Do you have any suggestions?

[Blues Fairy]

Okay, let’s call those factors as common practices. In this case, the common practices placed women at a disadvantage and led to inequality between men and woman when it came to a use of the available business opportunities.

The fact of the matter is, these practices are no longer common.  Social expectations have changed and now more women than men graduate college and more women than men own small businesses.  What's the need for continuing privileges for women in an ostensibly equal-opportunity society?

[pitbull]

Interesting article. One of the reasons my husband gave for his preference for a daughter rather than a son two years ago (when we just found out that we'll become parents) was that the society consistently favors females now - she will simply have better chances in life.

Funny thing he pretty much quoted this Ericsson cowboy from the article: "Women live longer than men. They do better in this economy. More of ’em graduate from college. They go into space and do everything men do, and sometimes they do it a whole lot better. I mean, hell, get out of the way—these females are going to leave us males in the dust.”

Personally, I feel this is so much better to be a woman in the USA than in FSU. AND happy my daughter is born and will live here.

[vwrw]

The fact of the matter is, these practices are no longer common.  Social expectations have changed and now more women than men graduate college and more women than men own small businesses.  What's the need for continuing privileges for women in an ostensibly equal-opportunity society?

I agree with you BF that those practices are no longer common and the need for placing women in privileged position is eliminated. However, many people move through their lives by inertia, making little effort to reevaluate changed reality unless forced to do that. Therefore, my guess is that continuing privileges for women will exist until oppressed men get fed up and start to object.

[Blues Fairy]

Therefore, my guess is that continuing privileges for women will exist until oppressed men get fed up and start to object.

I am not an oppressed man but I still object.  

[vwrw]

I am not an oppressed man but I still object.  

I think I understand why you object. Existence of those privileges may suggest that women are impaired in some ways if they need privileges to compete with men, correct?

Personally, I feel this is so much better to be a woman in the USA than in FSU.

I have exactly the same feeling!

[OlgaH]

Personally, I feel this is so much better to be a woman in the USA than in FSU.

Yep.

Wednesday, July 14, 2010; 12:00 AM

July 14 (Bloomberg) -- Novartis AG's U.S. unit agreed to pay as much as $152.5 million to settle a gender-discrimination class action brought by female workers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/14/AR2010071405346.html

MONDAY, MARCH 29, 2010
Gov. Bill Ritter today signed House Bill 1008, sponsored by Reps. Sue Schafer and Beth McCann and Sens. Morgan Carroll and Gail Schwartz, to prevent insurance companies from discriminating against women when setting health insurance rates.
“Today’s legislation eliminates the type of gender discrimination practiced by insurance companies in setting rates for women – rates which can be up to 59 percent higher than rates for men,” Gov. Ritter said. “This bill ensures access to care and coverage for all at an equitable price and eliminates the financial burden that gender rating puts on women.”
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/GovRitter/GOVR/1251573499694

[Blues Fairy]

I think I understand why you object. Existence of those privileges may suggest that women are impaired in some ways if they need privileges to compete with men, correct?

Nope.  I simply think these programs and privileges run against the principles of this country and are now nothing more than a vehicle for the political agenda of certain interest groups.

[pitbull]

On a different but related note, there was a whole Time magazine issue earlier this year on "The State of the American Woman". There is an interesting observation from the article though it sort of makes sense: "Among the most confounding changes of all is the evidence, tracked by numerous surveys, that as women have gained more freedom, more education and more economic power, they have become less happy".

But I fully agree with the following conclusion: "It's no longer a man's world. Nor is it a woman's nation. It's a cooperative, with bylaws under constant negotiation and expectations that profits be equally shared".  Men who hold on to the old "1950-es family" model are the ones lagging far behind the objective reality. June Cleaver is gone

[I/O]

Can't just knock em up anymore and expect them to stay home.

Oh yeah? Coulda fooled me. 

[Daveman]

Hey, I'd be happy to sit at home and play Jooky's video games while the woman brings home the bacon... I'd even have time to brush up on my "business skills"' at the golf course...  :evil:

[vwrw]

"Among the most confounding changes of all is the evidence, tracked by numerous surveys, that as women have gained more freedom, more education and more economic power, they have become less happy".

Interestingly…why would that be? Maybe they feel less happy because they are more tired. Although many women undertake performance of new roles with ardor, many of them seem to be unwilling to delegate their traditional responsibilities to a third party.   As a result, they feel overstrained, overloaded, tired and are less capable of enjoying things, which might make them happy otherwise. Those who do  delegate their traditional responsibilities to a third party may feel guilty that they do that, and that may make them unhappy.   

[SMS60]

Interesting…why would that be?

They are trying to fill their soul with something that is not human. They dont need a man is the favorite saying.

[kievstar]

I hire women all the time as human resources tells me we need to have more women.  This happened when I was at GE, Rockwell, Delphi, etc.  I frequently will hire a double minority over a more qualified white male as you get two points.  Double minority is black female.  I hire as follows for white collar jobs:

1. Black female
2. White female
3. Mexican female
4. Asian female
5. White male
6. keep looking - bad experiences with black and Mexican males and no longer hire or promote unless there factory workers.  Not a big fan of Asian men either.  

[GQBlues]

Sorry, but I think the article is a lot of hype. 

I fully agree. Moreover, it's rather dated.

A woman's effort and perseverance to achieve her goals in this society has no correlation, or should not affect, on how a man create his own personal value and self worth for himself.

[Gator]

I have long known about the value of female professional staff in the workplace. 

The consulting company I co-founded grew from 3 to 3,000 employees in 10 years.  Most of these hires were professional engineers and scientists.  

Our organization was decentralized,  so the hiring was done from about 20 offices.  We had no quotas; we simply hired the best person available:  man or woman, WASP or Chinese. Based on our growth (and profit), it worked.  

In my neck of the woods, about 33% of the engineers working for me were women even though engineering had long been thought of as a man's profession.  All were superlative.  This was the early 1980s and some male project managers questioned my sanity and some clients rolled their eyes;  yet, when the project was completed, the clients queued up for more work.

A significant part of compensation consisted of performance based bonuses, and the women did well.

One of my brightest stars eventually left for Stanford after placing 11th in the nation on the GMAT - now the CFO with a Fortune 500 company.

A couple of women had children and could not do the long hours expected in consulting.  In our flexible company, they still were able to find a place.

In summary, the women engineers performed just as well as the men, worked just as hard, gave me less trouble, and tended to make the office more pleasant.  God bless them!
 

[GQBlues]

In summary, the women engineers performed just as well as the men, worked just as hard, gave me less trouble, and tended to make the office more pleasant.  God bless them!

On a more humble level, short of 3.5 years ago I started a partnership with a couple of my peers and established a small call center across the ocean.

They/we interviewed a whole slew of applicants that was equally represented by both sexes. We started fairly small and estimated we would need approximately 15-20 out of the nearly 500 applicants we received.

The schedule is based on 3 5-person crew, 8-hour shifts each, 24/7. We ended up hiring 25. 10 females, 15 males.

Today, our team comprises of 31 females, 5 males, with an obvious pressure to further expand.

From our POV, the men seem a bit more restless to stay in one place for the 8-hour shift and are prone to be less 'patient' when dealing with CS issues.

Our center is presently managed by a female who was hired with the very first group.

[OlgaH]

On a different but related note, there was a whole Time magazine issue earlier this year on "The State of the American Woman". There is an interesting observation from the article though it sort of makes sense: "Among the most confounding changes of all is the evidence, tracked by numerous surveys, that as women have gained more freedom, more education and more economic power, they have become less happy".

"No tidy theory explains the trend, notes University of Pennsylvania economist Justin Wolfers, a co-author of The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness. "We looked across all sectors — young vs. old, kids or no kids, married or not married, education, no education, working or not working — and it stayed the same," he says of the data. "But there are a few ways to look at it," he adds ...  It may be that women have become more honest about what ails them."

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1930277_1930145_1930309-2,00.html

Men who hold on to the old "1950-es family" model are the ones lagging far behind the objective reality. June Cleaver is gone

Unfortunately such men who think that a woman's soul should be filled only with  "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" are still exist, and "children and home" will be also on a working woman as "it is her primary job"

I tend to agree in article with: "Or that modern life in a global economy is simply more stressful for everyone but especially for women, who are working longer hours while playing quarterback at home"

[SMS60]

What happens when the day comes when the women in the world are no longer attractive to men? Like some AW have become.

Are we changing nature? Does this change involve making male and females unattractive to each other? Where does this lead?

[Shostakovich]

Why would women be not able to sustain their newly founded roles? Do you have any suggestions?

Failure scenarios are always easy to spin out.  If there is a failure, this question might be worth speculating over.  Otherwise, why bother?

[Shostakovich]

I hire women all the time as human resources tells me we need to have more women.  This happened when I was at GE, Rockwell, Delphi, etc.  I frequently will hire a double minority over a more qualified white male as you get two points.  Double minority is black female.  I hire as follows for white collar jobs:

1. Black female
2. White female
3. Mexican female
4. Asian female
5. White male
6. keep looking - bad experiences with black and Mexican males and no longer hire or promote unless there factory workers.  Not a big fan of Asian men either.  

Just curious, what positions did you hire?  Were you able to find qualified Black Females to fit all the positions open.  What problems in category 6.

[pitbull]

What happens when the day comes when the women in the world are no longer attractive to men? Like some AW have become.

And why would this ever happen SMS? I can see only one scenario - if all men magically became homosexual overnight... Highly unlikely.

Also, some AW are not attractive to SOME men. They are perfectly attractive to other men. Reverse is also true: there are SOME AM who are unattractive to SOME AW. And of course there is a group of AW, AM, RW, RM....W and M who are generally unattractive to the opposite sex. But this category is very small. There is generally "a lid for every pot".

What you are saying doesn't make sense in the real world.

[Jooky]

I'm still wondering what specific rights some of you think women shouldn't have.

Blues Fairy, as far as I know Affirmative Action programs were banned in California Universities about 10 years ago. That might have been overturned, but I haven't heard about it. From what I've seen there is a decline in these programs, which is good. I think they don't promote fairness or equality.

[brad5959]

I knew you were joking about the math, Brad, but Ukrainians have a saying which translates roughly to "in every joke there is the kernel of a joke and a large part of the truth" (meaning your particular perception).

I don't know any women who are picking up "support cheques" from boyfriends or husbands.  I do know women who stay at home raising children while their husbands work, and I know men who stay home to raise children while their wives work.  This is not a "quid pro quo", but the structure of a family.

I know plenty of women who pick up the cheque for lunch.  I regularly make our mortgage payment, and I know plenty of other women who do as well.   And you know what, Brad?  I worked while my husband stayed home with our kids.  I worked right up to my due date in each of my pregnancies, in fact, I was closing a deal when I went into labour with my third child.  I worked during my maternity leaves.  I have been the primary bread winner in our family since my husband emigrated so you are barking up the wrong tree when you yap about my personal situation.  After our second, my husband returned to work, he works evenings, I work days so one of us is always home with our kids.  I still outearn him, by a fairly wide margin.  But, it's not mine/his, it is ours.


Most women do put their families above their careers.  Most women work out of necessity, not desire, and your idealized view of the family unit is one that existed only for a very small layer of US society for a very small period of time.   US wages have been stagnant since the 1970's.  That is why most women work.  However, a smart woman knows that putting all her reliance on a man is a mistake.  Even a good man can lose a job, and there are plenty of men who decide to "trade up".  With the rise of the "feminazi" has also been a corresponding rise in Peter Pan men.

While women pick up the cheques for the next 5,000 years, perhaps you can raise the next 3,000 generations of children.

many or most American women who work do not help pay the mortgage or other household expenses, they work so they can buy makeup, clothes, and other unnecessary stuff.  they still expect their husbands to pay the mortgage, food, etc.  if you are the exception to the rule than I commend you.  I also do not know any women who pick up the check (other than my mother but that makes her happy), neither do I want to let them as that would incur their spiteful wrathful nature.

besides picking up checks for the next five thousand years, don't forget about going off to war while men stay at home.  yeah, that's going to happen...

once again, an American woman's concept of equality only pertains to her--when there is inequality against men, they are glib and happy about it.

[Jooky]

What state are you from, Brad?

Maybe you should move to California. All the married women I know that work help pay the bills (or they're the sole provider), and plenty of women will split or foot a dinner bill.