Re: Contacting Men on Dating Sites

[ECOCKS]

So, let's REALLY try to get off the personal pissing contest.

Do guys view an initial contact ON A SITE from a woman with any more or less scepticism than when they respond to the guy's initial request?

As I said, I view it with a more critical eye and evaluate it with some more scepticism than a response from a gal I approached first with an email or EOI.

Is that scepticism any different than that with which they would greet a Skype contact from the Delores in Ghana who starts out with, "Hello my lovely Dear? How are you today?"

It darn sure is for me. I get 5-8 of these dang things a day.

[Sculpto]

Ed.. when I was using MOB sites yes I was skeptical.. and after a time I knew those first letters were 99% of the time sent by terps at agencies trying to drum up business.

I didn't use EM long enough to form an opinion.

On Mamba ladies stop by to look.. that is a first contact.. it is rare they send a message.. if they do often it turns out they are marketing a porn site or something.. maybe 20% of the time.. the rest are legit.  However.. i will also mention that most of those are not ladies I would have written on my own and on more than a few occasions were aging cougars.  But scam attempts, at least on Mamba, are rare.

[ECOCKS]

Hm mm, as someone else mentioned, putting youself on Mamba invites response at least from those who you mention in you objectives and wish list description. so that means it's a "first contact" not and "unsolicited contact" unless you specifically said, "looking for a Ukrainian woman" and some stupid Russian gal doesn't quite get it and harasses you anyway.

Regardless, did you view the first comment from her in exactly the same way you did the first response from a Ukrainian woman (who fit your request) or someone who responded to your first contact?

[Sculpto]

Hm mm, as someone else mentioned, putting youself on Mamba invites response at least from those who you mention in you objectives and wish list description. so that means it's a "first contact" not and "unsolicited contact" unless you specifically said, "looking for a Ukrainian woman" and some stupid Russian gal doesn't quite get it and harasses you anyway.

Regardless, did you view the first comment from her in exactly the same way you did the first response from a Ukrainian woman (who fit your request) or someone who responded to your first contact?

OK.. here is one that might be relevant.. I used to put in my profiles.. "no ladies with children please".  Oddly that seemed to attract tons of ladies with children.  One would think that if a man is specific about something so serious that ladies would pay attention to it.. but.. it didn't stop them.  I always ignored those profiles. 

Honestly though.. if I get a nice first contact letter from a lady.. short.. and clearly sincere.. I am flattered and I would tend towards giving her MORE attention since she put her heart out there which is something a lot of ladies won't do.

[Faux Pas]

The sentence below that one you quoted explains why I find the term “unsolicited” to be inappropriate. I do not think I can explain my point any more clearly. Sorry.

Calling a women’s contact as unsolicited was inappropriate and became the reason for the misunderstanding.  Any male profile published on a dating site that is not explicitly specifying that its owner is interested only in women living within a given distance or a given country impliedly solicits contacts from women living everywhere in the world.   

I guess you are referring to this sentence? Unsolicited is uninvited. It isn't good or bad, it is indifferent. Unsolicited means it wasn't asked for. I wasn't only referring to dating sites but social sites and emails. All of which I did receive unsolicited and uninvited contact from RW. If I am on a local dating site, why would I mention I am not interested in an international relationship?

[ECOCKS]

OK.. here is one that might be relevant.. I used to put in my profiles.. "no ladies with children please".  Oddly that seemed to attract tons of ladies with children.  One would think that if a man is specific about something so serious that ladies would pay attention to it.. but.. it didn't stop them.  I always ignored those profiles.  

Yeah, that would be considered UNSOLICITED in my book.

Honestly though.. if I get a nice first contact letter from a lady.. short.. and clearly sincere.. I am flattered and I would tend towards giving her MORE attention since she put her heart out there which is something a lot of ladies won't do.

But the question was would you look at it any different than a response from one YOU contacted? For instance, you say "clearly sincere" so was your sincerity filter setting any higher on this gal's message than on one you would get from a gal you first contacted about opening up a dialogue?

[SANDRO43]

OK.. here is one that might be relevant.. I used to put in my profiles.. "no ladies with children please".  Oddly that seemed to attract tons of ladies with children.  One would think that if a man is specific about something so serious that ladies would pay attention to it.. but.. it didn't stop them.

I did that, too, and I'm always receiving letters/winks from women that do NOT satisfy that requirement.

My tentative conclusion is that, apart from website mass-mailing initiatives, such women may be given lists of plausibly eligible WM, and be urged to write to them, regardless .

[Sculpto]

But the question was would you look at it any different than a response from one YOU contacted? For instance, you say "clearly sincere" so was your sincerity filter setting any higher on this gal's message than on one you would get from a gal you first contacted about opening up a dialogue?

not really because I used and still use a very short intro.. my sincerity filter engages more often after i have reviewed their profile.. if the language in the letter is congruent with the kind of profile she has posted.. i will reply.. otherwise.. probably not.

frankly i don't think there are all that many FSUWs that are all that interested in chats and letter writing campaigns.  As of late I have had much better response rate once I get their kontakte and can play on their wall.  But even so.. Art Store Girl doesn't like the internet and has only reluctantly agreed to use her email account to communicate with me going forward and that only after I convinced her that airmail would be too slow.

Miss Sacto wrote me first on Mamba.

[vwrw]

If I am on a local dating site, why would I mention I am not interested in an international relationship?

You were on a local dating site when you tried to hook a woman in a bar, in a shopping center, or elsewhere where you were getting acquainted with women. When you publish your profile on internet dating site, you are not on a local dating site any more, you are on World Wide Web, and you have to mention you are not interested in an international relationship to consider a contact from a foreign woman as unsolicited. 

[GQBlues]

Do guys view an initial contact ON A SITE from a woman with any more or less scepticism than when they respond to the guy's initial request?

It is highly dependent on the man's experience and awareness. That's where the problem is... a typical newbie will likely be clueless and therefore would have no reason to be skeptical. At least not to the same extent as a person who's been victimized before. Those who just began the journey would simply be clueless.

I'm not sure why this subject is even being this intensely debated. The reality is unsolicited mailings, or spammed mailings is a proven functional tool scam artists use in the industry today.

Hence the original cautionary remark FP made.

[Faux Pas]

You were on a local dating site when you tried to hook a woman in a bar, in a shopping center, or elsewhere where you were getting acquainted with women. When you publish your profile on internet dating site, you are not on a local dating site any more, you are on World Wide Web, and you have to mention you are not interested in an international relationship to consider a contact from a foreign woman as unsolicited.  

vwrw, I find your logic faulty. The mere fact that I step outside my house everyday into the world and go to a bar or a shopping center does in essence project me into the world. It doesn't mean I am open to an international relationship with a woman from Russia. I am available to any woman from Russia just by the fact I am in public. Nothing changes. Perhaps not as easy to communicate but still available. Because I have a web presence on the WWW doesn't mean I invite anyone in the world to respond.

There's a bigger picture here your logic still doesn't address and that is uninvited, unsolicited. OM may be different and you may be different but when I receive an unwanted, uninvited, unsolicited offer from a FSUW, I am not interested, because my experience has taught me 9 of 10 or perhaps better is a scam or some other gamer. Did you contact any of the four men you mentioned on an American social, singles site or did you just directly send them an email with no site involved?

[Misha]

I agree with Faux Pas. Generally, women do not actively pursue men whether online or on the web. To have a women who goes against social conventions makes you wonder what is up. If I were an attractive young man living in Spain or France, I would more than likely  be wondering what was up and why a woman from Russia would be writing out of the blue.

[Jumper]

So, let's REALLY try to get off the personal pissing contest.

Do guys view an initial contact ON A SITE from a woman with any more or less scepticism than when they respond to the guy's initial request?

no,
i'm equally open to the  contact , if it on agency site..regardless if i had initiated it or they did .

Also knowing full well that most agencies, for a decade or longer ,
 have  sent a lot of contact letters to drum up business .
I expect those.It is just is the nature of these  situations.

 This doesnt mean  I don't read the letter and try to determine its sincerety ,
 or reply if interested and determine sincerity over time .

Even if the letter is originally a "auto send' by the agency,
 many times it can be the real owner of the profile replying.

For what its worth ,this is far different than being contacted on a non-international website though.On those sites , specifically ,yes i would be more skeptical,
  i would remain open minded , and reply if interested , but yes skeptical.
time generally tells all.

As I said, I view it with a more critical eye and evaluate it with some more scepticism than a response from a gal I approached first with an email or EOI.

personally i would not be any more critical..
but generally I simply wait for someone interested to contact me ,,
I seldom make first contact.
also I never send winks or EOI's, if i am interested in making contact , i write an  intro letter,
and try to  be specific about why i find her interesting ,and also tend to try to have a serious
introduction ,yet light or humorous enough that she might find it fun to reply.

Is that scepticism any different than that with which they would greet a Skype contact from the Delores in Ghana who starts out with, "Hello my lovely Dear? How are you today?"

hmm,,
you bring up a good point in that the *style * of someones contact , probably effects my level of skeptcism more than where it comes from!
and if they have a bubbly lovey dovey personality , prone to using terms of endearment easily at first contact,   i'd probably write it off as *scam* or insincere , just from their personal style , which is likely unfair , but just how it is.

It darn sure is for me. I get 5-8 of these dang things a day.

Here you may be referring to unsolicited ,verse the earlier mentioned 'initail contact"
if on a site like match .com it is viewed different than from somewhere like EMs..

There are  agency sites where you can get hundreds a day..
those are not really unsolicted though. but they are initial contacts..generated from the other person.

Most here should know which sites those are ,and how they function to stay profitable.
(i have serious doubts that  a stand alone legit agency ,based on correspondence, or membership dues,could be a business model that could sustain itself or make any money.
I tend to believe those legit ones, are often labours of love, and if they make something ,that is viewed as a bonus)

There are thousands of legit women listed on the well known shady agencies ,and you have
to become somewhat versed in reading how a typically sincere RW would phrase an intro letter vs  the agency terps , or "others"

 It might take more than just the intro letter..of course,
 but you have time to do so,,??
 
i just do not find it that hard to sort out over any lenght of time ,
so have never understood the concerns.

while  i might be skeptical depending on the situation or style of the letter..
, i just dont worry about it.  
if i really feel its not legit , easy and obvious enough to simply not reply.

if it seems sketchy ,but also seems someone  i might be quite interested in..
why not reply?
time will reveal things one way or the other..

[ECOCKS]

Miss Sacto wrote me first on Mamba.

Ummm, are you sure you want to use that saga as an example?   

[Shadow]

The funny thing is that from the perspective of Olga_Mouse you guys are all doing exactly why she does not want to use FSUW directed sites.
Remember that on the other side a woman who is reasonably attractive can get 10-20 letters a day, and has to go through all of them to weed out the sex tourists, losers, scammers and idiots. Men just ignore any unsollicited contact because of fear of scamming.

Now if you are Olga_Mouse and are already tired of aswering letters as they are usually from guys that do not iinterest you, how to let a guy know that you are interested  and actually attract his attention ?

[ECOCKS]

In my opinion she can put together an on the spot profile with real pictures of herself, set her goals and then try to achieve them.

Of course, if she sets fantasy goals, she'll go the same route as so many of the guys.

I was somewhat shocked when I realized how pervasive the snob attitude and fantasy objectives of the women were among FSUW. Makes me appreciate my wife even more.

[Sculpto]

Ummm, are you sure you want to use that saga as an example?   

She might be a little flaky but is by no means a scammer.

[Sculpto]

The funny thing is that from the perspective of Olga_Mouse you guys are all doing exactly why she does not want to use FSUW directed sites.
Remember that on the other side a woman who is reasonably attractive can get 10-20 letters a day, and has to go through all of them to weed out the sex tourists, losers, scammers and idiots. Men just ignore any unsollicited contact because of fear of scamming.

Now if you are Olga_Mouse and are already tired of aswering letters as they are usually from guys that do not iinterest you, how to let a guy know that you are interested  and actually attract his attention ?

Exactly Shadow.  Perfectly said.

[ECOCKS]

She might be a little flaky but is by no means a scammer.

Still not too sure the "flaky-ness" gives you a strong case there.

[Sculpto]

I was somewhat shocked when I realized how pervasive the snob attitude and fantasy objectives of the women were among FSUW. Makes me appreciate my wife even more.

Why should you be shocked Ed?  How many sites are there that tell us FSUW are the best women in the world?  Do you think they don't hear those words also?  Do you think they are not aware of their own beauty and intelligence?  Do you think all the attention they get doesn't have an impact on their standards?

On top of that.. I was once advised by a lady to read Russian fairy tales to garner a deeper understanding of the mentality of FSUWs.  Cinderella is just the tip of the iceberg.  In discussing that specific issue with practically every FSUW I have ever corresponded with I can tell you  I am convinced most would rather spend life unmarried and alone than settle for anything less than what they think they deserve.  They dream about marriage and happy family but that doesn't mean they are actually capable of having one.  The divorce rate in the FSU is just about as high as our own and there is something that was described to me as "hyper depression" that exists all over the FSU that complicates things even further.  Combine those things with a cultural ability to be deceptive cultivated during 70+ years of Soviet rule and.... why did you want to marry an FSUW?

And therein lies one of the fundamental conflicts that can be exceptionally off putting to a lot of guys.  We read the hype on sites and expect these incredibly beautiful ladies to also be humble Jane and when they turn out to in fact be quite self confident and far more emancipated than we were lead to believe suddenly the special luster we thought they had dissolves and they become mere "women" again.  

Someone recently said to me one of the problems with agency girls is that 5% of the hottest girls get 95% of the attention and it turns them into insufferable bitches.  Well, I would go one extreme comment further and say that they were insufferable bitches long before they joined any agency site.  I saw hundreds if not thousands of exactly this type of woman all over St. P and just with simple observation I determined that I (or any one reading this paragraph) would have to be insane to pursue any woman that fits into that category.  Yeah, I am "profiling" and the profile includes very high heals and very short skirts and perfectly done makeup and nails and hair and movie star sunglasses and an expensive car and an expensive flat and maybe a rich father and a few sponsors.  These kinds of girls are easy to spot, great to look at and believe with all their hearts they are in fact royalty and therefore deserve a prince with a ferarri and yacht to whisk them away to a life of carefree shopping jetsetting five star travel and non messy sex performed efficiently but without passion.

Dating within your own league is not only about physical appearance.  If you aren't a prince you best not chase after a princess.  If you live in a small rural town you probably shouldn't fall in love with a self reliant city girl from Moscow or St. P or Kiev.  

Final note.. I often detect on this forum an attitude towards women that I would define as "he man women haters club" or very close to it.  In some of these situations I am shocked at what kind of woman would even agree to marry some of the primary perpetrators of this attitude.  Then I compare those thoughts with the methodology that gets promoted and I begin to understand that some men on this forum are writing a recipe for finding a self effacing submissive who will be dependent and never rock the boat.  Personally I think men that search for a submissive barefoot wife would be a lot better off looking in the Phils than in the FSU... but then.. there is that little thing called race and how often is a racial bias passed off as a attraction preference?  yeah I see through that too.. some guys just don't want a little brown monkey no matter how submissive she is.

I am quite convinced todays argument exposed this mentality and just about any time an FSUW who is actually capable of thought and has a differing opinion or point of view comes to the forum and expresses her views the above described women haters club sets out on a search and destroy mission because such women are a threat to the little fantasy they have built up for themselves.

So.. I know my comments are getting to set off a firestorm so I will try and keep quiet for the next 24 hours or so.. at least in this thread.. and you all can prove why I am wrong.

[Sculpto]

Still not too sure the "flaky-ness" gives you a strong case there.

Why Ed?  Her circumstances are different than international dating.  Now its simply cross cultural dating with a woman who is trying to adapt to our country on her own.  She is a recent immigrant with no English skills and no job skills.  Do you really think finding a boyfriend is at the top of her priority list?  I know it isn't and she gets some leeway from me because of it.  She knew I was going to St. P and would meet some girls there.. she didn't try to stop me from going but she called me within hours of my return.. before I had gotten around to calling her.

Parameters are completely different... and she isn't a scammer of any sort.. flaky maybe.. uncertain of her future for sure.. good wife material?  I don't know yet but what I do know is she is very loyal to her immediate family and 100% dedicated to her child.  She may prove to NOT be the girl for me.. but she is a good girl.

[Shadow]

In my opinion she can put together an on the spot profile with real pictures of herself, set her goals and then try to achieve them.

Of course, if she sets fantasy goals, she'll go the same route as so many of the guys.

I was somewhat shocked when I realized how pervasive the snob attitude and fantasy objectives of the women were among FSUW. Makes me appreciate my wife even more.

Such a profile would get 20 letters a day, and perhaps one that is interesting in a month.
Would you have read 600 letters from women to find your wife ? If not, why would you require Olga_Mouse to ?

[ECOCKS]

Why should you be shocked Ed?  

Because I am such a simpleminded, cockeyed, optimist (Thank You G&S!). I thought they were more in touch with reality than the men and they are, but only by a slight margin.
On top of that...I am convinced most would rather spend life unmarried and alone than settle for anything less than what they think they deserve. They dream about marriage and happy family but that doesn't mean they are actually capable of having one.  

Insightful, how refreshing.

Why did you want to marry an FSUW?

I was hoping for an attractive, self-reliant, trustworthy woman who had her feet on the ground and that could do everything. So far, my parameters have all been exceeded and I am confident I found one and her rarity on any continent makes her all the more special.

We read the hype on sites and expect these incredibly beautiful ladies to also be humble Jane and when they turn out to in fact be quite self confident and far more emancipated than we were lead to believe suddenly the special luster we thought they had dissolves and they become mere "women" again.  

Other than Elena's I didn't read much of the hype and what I did read was so obviously marketing propaganda that it was easily dismissed. How sad to be some guy who bags a show pony that only lasts a few years and leaves him alone in the world again.

Someone recently said to me one of the problems with agency girls is that 5% of the hottest girls get 95% of the attention and it turns them into insufferable bitches.  

I have always believed that and also agree it has nothing to do with the girls only after joining agencies.

Dating within your own league is not only about physical appearance. If you aren't a prince you best not chase after a princess.  

Although there is the occasional princess who has that rare ability to see deeper than wallets and some Hollywood perception of life in America. However, I understand you're using the term "princess" a bit differently to include the entitlement attitude that so many of the whacked out women get, wherever they live.

If you live in a small rural town you probably shouldn't fall in love with a self reliant city girl from Moscow or St. P or Kiev.  

I don't agree with this particularly. True commonsense is no more common in rural areas than cities.

I often detect on this forum an attitude towards women that I would define as "he man women haters club" or very close to it.  

I don't see that "women haters" part but there are definitely some redneck wannabes on here who have a fantasy life that leaves me speechless that some poor girl will get hooked up with them for even a short while. It makes me hopeful that IMBRA,VAWA and the US divorce system will somehow work on making things right no matter how far it gets and the gals will be safe in the end.

In some of these situations I am shocked at what kind of woman would even agree to marry some of the primary perpetrators of this attitude.  

As above I definitely see that.

Personally I think men that search for a submissive barefoot wife would be a lot better off looking in the Phils than in the FSU...

I honestly think they just don't get that bringing the woman here will change her into at least a somewhat different person with changed goals, standards and ambitions. These guys in particular need to understand that it takes time and effort to build a relationship that can last.

[Sculpto]

Such a profile would get 20 letters a day, and perhaps one that is interesting in a month.
Would you have read 600 letters from women to find your wife ? If not, why would you require Olga_Mouse to ?

Again spot on Shadow..

So.. I am going to offer up one little clue.. there is one social network site with a very international membership that for whatever reason has evolved into pretty much of a dating site.  There are thousands of real FSUWs on that site.  Getting their attention on stated site is even harder than on Mamba and I will tell you why... on this site it is possible to see the friends list of anyone who has friended you.. and often the ladies do not make their profiles private and you can see their friends list before friending.. the average FSUW has HUNDREDS of men in her friends list from all around the world.  The very good looking ladies have thousands!  The Turkish guys are falling all over themselves to fill up the walls of these ladies with every photo of a rose ever created.  The guys from Dubai and Saudi Arabia can outspend every one of us on this forum in a blink of an eye. 

My point is.. this is a fairly obscure social network with about 80 million members.. if I do a search for single women in Russia between 23 and 40 I get over 100,000... more than on most agency sites.  However.. every single one of them has a massive friends list of almost all men.  These ladies all speak English and often other languages as well.  Simply do the math.. extrapolate the results to marriage oriented sites.. and there you have it.

Why should Olga-mouse, or any other lady who is doing a serious search, have to sift the so much human detritus?  And then.. why should us western men be so negatively judgmental when we get an intro letter from a lady that has chosen to take matters in her own hands?

And no, I will not say which social network it is.. there are already enough goobers on there messing it up. 

[ECOCKS]

Each person can dig for gold wherever and however they wish short of breaking the laws of the countries they are involved with.

Lots of luck (truly!) in their searching but those that try to dig in the ocean will encounter less luck than those on dirt and that lesser still than those who look in mountains and fast-running streams.

Particularly tiresome are those who dig and come up empty then complain and whine about how unfair and difficult the task is after rejecting, and especially sneering at, the attempts at help from others.

As I said earlier, there are those who will be standing at the airport complaining about flight delays when their ship ties up at the dock. Their loss.