Education in FSU vs USA

[ML]

It would be interesting to hear from those here WHO HAVE STUDIED OR TAUGHT IN BOTH FSU AND USA.  Lily, Blues Fairy, VWRW and others; what have you to say?

Yes, yes, I know this article is about Ukraine, but it refers to Soviet mentality.  So those of you with Russian experience, please don't dismiss it as not relevant.

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Poorly rated universities in Ukraine? No surprise  | Nataliya Horban

I have always found it hard to understand people who talk about their college years as the best time of their lives. My own university experience in Ukraine was a constant clash between reality and my ideas about what a proper education ought to be. I came to university for real knowledge, but my expectations were not met and that was hard for me to accept.

Maybe I wouldn’t have thought twice about the nature of Ukrainian higher education and would have gone through it fairly satisfied if hadn’t I spent a year in the United States on an exchange program. Having experienced a different approach to studying revealed to me the bumpy road of the Ukrainian-style pursuit of knowledge.

Before studying in a U.S. high school, I was a pretty typical Ukrainian school kid. If I was the first one to solve a problem during a math test, I would pass the solution on to my classmates; if there was a question I didn’t remember the answer to during an exam, I would cheat by peaking into a textbook or ask my fellow classmate to help out.

I wasn’t bothered by these ethical lapses while growing up in Ukraine. In fact, I saw no reason to do it differently.  That made the shock of my year at an American high school all the more jolting.

During a calculus test in my U.S. high school, our teacher stepped out and the students kept working as if nothing happened – no one cheated! Everyone remained quiet, not taking the opportunity to solve the problems collectively.

I enjoyed this honest way of studying. I loved being responsible for my own successes and failures. It was liberating not to be distracted by others to speed up with a solution, so that I could pass it on for others to copy down.

I came back to Ukraine believing that I would not be able to study at a place where, despite knowing the subject well, I would need to pay bribes to get good grades, as is often the case at Ukrainian universities.

I was terrified by the thought of typical Ukrainian professors – unapproachable, “all-powerful, all-knowing and all-wise.” Many of them have the attitude that I, a stupid hopeless student, should be grateful that they, with all their glory and supreme intelligence, are trying to put some sense into that useless head of mine.

So I didn’t choose my university based on what career I would like to pursue. The decision was made out of desperation, to avoid the “Ukrainian way” of education as much as possible. Rumor had it that the International Christian University, a private institution, gravitated towards an honest way. English was the language of instruction and a number of foreign professors worked there, so I entered it and chose international economics as my major.  It was indeed a bribe-free zone but far from a problem-free one.

My disappointment with Ukrainian education reflects both national problems and those specific to my university.

I conclude that Ukrainian students tend to see higher education as a burden, a formality that one can’t avoid and just needs to get over with. All Ukrainian students are interested in is korochka, or their diploma. Such an attitude is the underlying reason why skipping classes, cheating on exams and bribing are norms.

As a result, a diploma from a prestigious university no longer signals anything to potential employers. They are interested only in your work experience and skills, as they realize the diploma may or may not be a genuine reflection of your knowledge. Who knows how many times you actually showed up to classes?

I didn’t come out of university prepared to work as an economist. Strange as it may sound, I had great professors of literature, the Bible and sociology, but classes in economics were poorly taught. Soviet-trained professors struggled with delivering lectures in English as well as finding a balance between the old Soviet style of education and the Western standards my university required them to follow. The result of such an education is not hard to guess.

My happiest time started when I got out of the university. I am no longer obliged to waste my time on low-quality class hours. I didn’t give up on studying, though, since nowadays lectures from the world’s top universities can be found online in a video and audio form and accessed for free. In contrast to my experience, those lectures stand out, those professors stand out. No wonder Ukrainian universities are nowhere in the global rankings of top universities.

Kyiv Post staff writer Nataliya Horban can be reached at Horban@kyivpost.com.

Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/n...tail/79080/#ixzz0xIkSyUQA

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I have copied here posts from persons in the other thread who appear to have been either teachers or students in both systems.

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ECOCKS

Yep, pretty accurate.

The reaction to foreign teachers is that we prohibit students helping each other and are, therefore, "mean". The majority simply cannot believe that they are expected to do their own work so talking, passing of note and (my favorite) texting/emailing of answers with their cell phones is the norm.

A very few have some idea of this "own work" concept and struggle with the expected peer pressure to not participate but it's tough.

I remember fondly the multiple-choice mid-terms and finals I put together with 3 versions. The questions were the same but the answers were in different spots. Likewise the students who were successfully failed for not showing up until the last 4 weeks of the term. Two friends even bought notes from the same doctor citing the same sickness.

The concept of plagiarism and extreme overuse of quotes is like a habitual disease as they struggle with applying analysis and judgement to questions. They sit and look blankly at situation-based questions and then come up and ask what is the question here? You tell them something like,"Well, read it and say what you would do in this situation." The responses would often be along the lines of, "I would ask my chief what to do." or "There is not enough information here for me to know what to do." The lack of critical thinking skills and the application of analysis and individual initiative are glaring in subjective fields such as management, sociology, psychology and economics.

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facetrock

Ed that is one of the best posts you ever made. I have a little experience with the cheating that goes on in Ukraine universitys. Your right on the mark.

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Lily

Essentially, I agree with most points that Nataliya highlighted in her article about Soviet / Russian universities. I don't see any difference between Ukrainian and Russian ones, of note. I have been a student in a Ukrainian high school myself, and could not notice any meaningful differences, just even stricter requirements and even more discipline in Ukrainian schools. I have done pretty well in Russia, but really struggled in Ukraine in order to keep almost the same level of my school achievements. However, it may be attributed just to particular schools.

I cannot agree with the author on the bribes, nevertheless, it may well be just my personality. I am the person who adheres to the rules, and in case something is not in the rules, I will just disregard it. Therefore, if someone would try to mention bribes to me between the lines, I wouldn't get it. So I never came across any bribes in universities.

On the diploma value..I tend to believe that this is still true in the FSU, some employers still prefer people who graduated from certain universities only, at least in legal profession. Besides, personality plays a huge role. When an employer, or just anyone else, meets a graduate in person, he or she should be able to judge about a level of professionalism, or at least a potential to became a good pro, if we talk about recent graduates.

One big difference between the US and FSU universities is that the former offer a far more intensive extracurricular options, and that the involvement in them really counts. In the FSU such things were amazingly rare. Personal initiative of students was generally unwelcome. Just think of a number of fraternities, sororities, Alpha Kappa etc, all kinds of societies by interests or ethnicities with weekly or monthly meetings, invited speakers and guests, to tell just a few of them.

By contrast, as far as I could notice on my US classmates, they were not very determined to score their best in the law school. Some even told me that they don't care about how well do they do in classes  Undecided  while I really tried my best, and would go to great lengths in order to get my A's. This students position was not quite to my understanding.

As to the students cheating is concerned, the US classes were made the way that practically eliminates a need to cheat. Most of my classes were paper based, what kind of cheating would they suggest, I wonder? Especially if every foreign student was assigned a language counselor who 'd proofread your papers and advice on the proper English usage.

[vwrw]

I would classify all students into three groups: 1) those who came to university for real knowledge; 2) those who came to university to build social network; and those who were forced by parents to come. Members of the first group usually leave university disappointed: Members of the second group usually leave university extremely satisfied. It is them who talk about their college years as the best time of their lives, and the friends that they have made in university usually grow out to be the nearest and dearest friends of theirs; I do not know what feelings members of the third group have when they leave university because none of my acquaintances belonged to that group.
 
I myself came to university for knowledge; I was very disappointed with my Russian university when on the exams after the first semester 2 professors of 5 told students “those who would be happy to get C on exam can pass their grade books to me, those who want a better grade stay for exam”. What??? At that moment, I felt so discouraged.  I felt as the drive caused by the thought “study or you will fail” was disappearing. Ever since, I studied only what I considered important.
 
In America, educators do not offer you C without giving you the exam first; however, if an educator of a course sees that many students are on the verge between D and C, s/he offers much of bonus homework to give the students opportunity to pass the class. The D/C student turns to A students for “help”. So I cannot say that American student do not solve the problems collectively; nevertheless, I must admit that the extent of collectively problem solving in America is significantly less than in Russia. 

I agree with NH’s opinion about educators. Most of my professors in Russia seemed unapproachable.  Students’ incomprehension of material was an indicator that the students are morons, and the university is not the right place for them rather than an indicator that the professors need to enhance quality of their lectures. Most of my educators in America seem to really be interested in success of their students. They welcome questions and after class discussion even when you have already finished their course. 

I know many American students who, like Ukrainian and Russian students, see higher education as a burden, a formality that one can’t avoid and just needs to get over with. Many American students get their degrees only because it often opens doors to higher salaries, not for the pleasure of getting it.

[ML]

"much of bonce homework"

VWRW, what is this bonce?

[ML]

"As to the students cheating is concerned, the US classes were made the way that practically eliminates a need to cheat. Most of my classes were paper based, what kind of cheating would they suggest, I wonder? Especially if every foreign student was assigned a language counselor who 'd proofread your papers and advice on the proper English usage."

Lily, I don't understand anything in this paragraph  of yours.  Can you elaborate more?

[ML]

The D/C student turns to A students for “help”. So I cannot say that American student do not solve the problems collectively;

Are you talking about 'help' outside of the classroom in understanding the material and preparing for tests, or are you talking about 'help' during the actual exam?

[vwrw]

"much of bonce homework"

VWRW, what is this bonce?

Opps, I misspelled the word. I meant bonus homework. That is, an additional assignment that is given to students and accomplishment of which provides them with points necessary to get a better grade than they could get without the assignment. 

[vwrw]

Are you talking about 'help' outside of the classroom in understanding the material and preparing for tests, or are you talking about 'help' during the actual exam?

I was talking about students asking to compare results of an assignment a day before the the assignment was due.

[Lily]

"As to the students cheating is concerned, the US classes were made the way that practically eliminates a need to cheat. Most of my classes were paper based, what kind of cheating would they suggest, I wonder? Especially if every foreign student was assigned a language counselor who 'd proofread your papers and advice on the proper English usage."

Lily, I don't understand anything in this paragraph  of yours.  Can you elaborate more?

I was saying that the US teaching system is designed the way where student don't have to cheat in order to be able to show their best. For example, a paper based course would require you to write a paper. I cannot think of any cheating when writing a paper. If you do your best, you 'll get an A. Additionally, a language counselor can help you with that. That increases your chances for a good note, therefore no cheating would be needed here as well.

Multiple choice questions exam also don't need any cheating.

On the other hand, a number of classes in the FSU is built on bare memorization, although teachers may dispute this. Like a student may be given a ticket with a question for which he or she is supposed to provide an oral report in details, with no recourse on his own notes dome during the term. The latter approach may entice some students to cheat, and to sneak some notes with them to the exam, because they are not able to memorize that kind of information.

Does it make it more clear now?

[Boethius]

I cannot think of any cheating when writing a paper

Plagiarism, or hiring someone else to write a paper for you, are major problems in Western universities.

Plagiarism can be detected, if the internet was used.  Hiring someone to write a paper for you is almost impossible to detect.

[OlgaH]

On the other hand, a number of classes in the FSU is built on bare memorization, although teachers may dispute this. Like a student may be given a ticket with a question for which he or she is supposed to provide an oral report in details, with no recourse on his own notes dome during the term. The latter approach may entice some students to cheat, and to sneak some notes with them to the exam, because they are not able to memorize that kind of information.

Lily, I'm a little bit confused what kind of memorization you are talking about.

There are "things" in mathematics you should just memorize as for example the axioms, in the grammar you should also memorize some rules, and so on. Are the axioms in Western mathematics different from Russian mathematics? I don't think so. Most likely the Western students also memorize axioms and indisputable rules of grammar  

Regarding cheating and sneaking some notes there are many articles how the western universities use high-technology to fight cheating among the western students who also use high technology.    

[ML]

If you do your best, you 'll get an A.

I don't understand your logic here.  The best effort from many students will not deserve an A grade.

Multiple choice questions exam also don't need any cheating.

What do you mean by 'need.'  Do you mean MC exams are inherently very easy?  I can assure you that is not always true.

Does it make it more clear now?

It helped some; thanks.     But I still have questions as shown above in green.

[ML]

OlgaH, there is one aspect of the original writer that is a little subtle, but very important.

This concerns the degree to which cheating is accepted by both students and teachers, and actually thought of as being very normal.

Apparently in the FSU this is true.
But in the USA it is not true.

So it is not a question of whether cheating occurs (as it certainly does in every country), but rather is is tacitly condoned by most of the population.

Analogies can be made to the cases of business bribery, and graft by politicians.

Bribery (at least attempts) and graft occur in all countries of the world.
However, in some countries, detection of same will lead to prosecution, jail time, fines, etc.  In other countries, these actions are accepted as a normal way of life.

[OlgaH]

OlgaH, there is one aspect of the original writer that is a little subtle, but very important.

This concerns the degree to which cheating is accepted by both students and teachers, and actually thought of as being very normal.

Apparently in the FSU this is true.

Depends on the teachers. I was probably so unlucky with my teachers so I  did not even try  

[ML]

OlgaH, there is one aspect of the original writer that is a little subtle, but very important.

This concerns the degree to which cheating is accepted by both students and teachers, and actually thought of as being very normal.

Apparently in the FSU this is true.
But in the USA it is not true.

So it is not a question of whether cheating occurs (as it certainly does in every country), but rather is is tacitly condoned by most of the population.

I know I was shocked when a lady professor in FSU told me she earned money as a student by doing math homework for other students.  When I gave a startled look; she just brushed it off saying: 'It is normal.'

Analogies can be made to the cases of business bribery, and graft by politicians.

Bribery (at least attempts) and graft occur in all countries of the world.
However, in some countries, detection of same will lead to prosecution, jail time, fines, etc.  In other countries, these actions are accepted as a normal way of life.

[OlgaH]

Yes, ManLooking, bribery is the both-way process and in Russia it will be according to demand and supply relation.  

I know I was shocked when a lady professor in FSU told me she earned money as a student by doing math homework for other students.  When I gave a startled look; she just brushed it off saying: 'It is normal.'

the fools and their money?   or "coaching"?

Student of fortune  
http://studentoffortune.com/

Doing OUR homework!

At yourhomework.com, we are committed to doing A+ work for you - the parents, teachers and students who use our services.  http://www.yourhomework.com/


 

[ECOCKS]

Plagiarism, or hiring someone else to write a paper for you, are major problems in Western universities.

Plagiarism can be detected, if the internet was used.  Hiring someone to write a paper for you is almost impossible to detect.

I don't quite agree here about hiring a ghost writer B. Many teachers know when a student has done so by turning in work which is clearly not possible based upon their previous performance. The problem is their ability to challenge a student's product is limited by class load and timing concerns. Most professors in the US are hesitant to use "take-home" tests and even high-value "projects" which are carried out by teams have some sort of witnessed performance either through in-class presentations or surveying of team members as to contribution.

The most effective methods I am aware of in combating this possibility is to go with more team-based assignments/projects and use of in-class short (200-250 word, 1-3 paragraph, medium-length responses).

If you want to see real peer-review work, try allocating enough aggregated points for a high C if equally allocated and then telling the team to individually turn in their proposed distribution of the points by students based upon contribution to the project. Time-consuming and not always good for the students' relationships but interesting when you read their "reviews" of how each performed.

From the flip-side, having been a ghost writer a time or two, my method when working on student essay requirements, is to have the student develop their concepts and at least attempt to write the essay. Often they have to be pushed to produce the appropriate volume, then cleaning up grammar and making them sit through the re-work of logical reasoning, citations and development/justification of a position or viewpoint.

[BC]

It's up to the student whether or not they wish to learn or not.  Considering the wealth of knowledge available to most students in industrialized nations via the internet, the role of 'teacher' is turning more and more into the role of motivator with the primary goal of teaching kids how to learn and not what to learn.

[Lily]

I agree that the best efforts of some students don't deserve an A. However, by saying that I meant the students who followed their natural inclinations and talents when selecting their study path. Therefore my point was that if they try hard enough, they get the deserved.

You are right again, a 'need' for cheating would be a wrong word here.

The MC exams, in my opinion, are helpful because they offer some options, where you can use an obvious exclusion, a 'rather-this-than-that' approach, and to make an estimate on what would be more or less likely, in relative terms. That's why I like the MC exams better.

A month ago, I passed a 3,5 hours MC exam on anti-money laundering. Most questions were heavily practice-driven situations from day-to-day bank business, where I haven't worked for a single day in my life. My first though was, I am going to fail  but in an hour I finished all 120 MC questions, reviewed my exam, found a few helpful hints within the exam, changed some answers, and as I result I passed  There were a few questions which I couldn't answer, nevertheless, but anyway, this did not prevented me from passing and getting my professional certificate.

In Russian universities, an A student has no right for a single mistake during an exam, at least my experience. This makes the students learning efforts IMO unnecessary hard.

OlgaH, I can only say for linguistics, legal, historical and economical subjects. Sorry I am not able to say anything about math and other natural sciences.

[kievstar]

What is most important is what a student remembers 5 years after the test with no studying.  This is where many international and American students fail.  Great at taking tests and cramming for tests but poor at using it 5 years later.

You really want the information to stick and for the student to be able to apply what is learned rest of life.  I have yet to see any country do better than the USA on this when it comes to business related subjects, medical, engineering, law etc.

[OlgaH]

OlgaH, I can only say for linguistics, legal, historical and economical subjects. Sorry I am not able to say anything about math and other natural sciences.

Lily, sorry, I'm not talking about just math or natural sciences    but just about the process of memorization of information during studying that is the same, if  even we will take Western history classes and Russian history classes when students simply should remember dates and events in history. Regarding legal subject the lawyers memorize not only the the legal law but also some physics law, medical information and so on depending on their field of practice.   

[Dar]

Lily, sorry, I'm not talking about just math or natural sciences    but just about the process of memorization of information during studying that is the same, if  even we will take Western history classes and Russian history classes when students simply should remember dates and events in history. Regarding legal subject the lawyers memorize not only the the legal law but also some physics law, medical information and so on depending on their field of practice.   

I absolutely agree.

[Dar]

The MC exams, in my opinion, are helpful because they offer some options, where you can use an obvious exclusion, a 'rather-this-than-that' approach, and to make an estimate on what would be more or less likely, in relative terms. That's why I like the MC exams better.
I am sorry but I don't think so. This sort of exams make things too easy. For example, here, having read a 50 page chapter once, I easily get an A on a multiple choice scoring something like upper 90's or 100. The reason for that are easily available options. That is, in a situation where you are not sure what is the answer you can simply "be reminded", "get a hint" or merely recognize the familiar information from the text that you red yesterday. MC exams are specifically designed to asses recognition of familiar information unlike open ended questions or an essay questions that are designed to asses students' ability to remember and apply theoretical knowledge (for more detailed information about this, please, refer to any college text book on intellectual assessment).
I remember the way I prepared for my classes back home. I had to read the chapter twice, sometimes make notes. I was an A student there too. However, I believe that passing the exams there was somewhat a bigger challenge than it is here. I've never cheated. I haven't missed my classes either, unless there was a legitimate reason for that.

In Russian universities, an A student has no right for a single mistake during an exam, at least my experience. This makes the students learning efforts IMO unnecessary hard.

so what? Doesn't it make you a better specialist in your area? and why is that "unnecessary"?
I would not say that studying in Ukraine was necessarily hard. For example, I study the same amount of time here as I did over there. The difference is, that here I appear to be on a much higher level then the majority of my classmates. And the thought that my grades as well the the grades of my classmates are strictly based on merit makes me feel great about myself. On the contrary, in my Ukrainian top law school 25% of my classmates received perfect grades, but those grades were often granted inappropriately. Additionally, here although the number of classes is smaller per semester, the amount of homework is proportionally larger. I don't mind though because I like a challenge.

[Dar]

Regarding the topic of this discussion, I completely disagree with the journalist's main idea that the quality of education in Ukraine is unsatisfying and poor. She was able to pin point the issue but failed to identify the root of the problem and therefore, came to the wrong generalized conclusions.
The quality of knowledge offered and the assessment approach, in my opinion, is a potentially successful model. But, the problem is that the folks' mentality and some cultural views influence its final outcomes.
Secondly, no one is preventing students from studying hard and earning their grades on the basis of honesty and mutual respect. And some do exactly that. It is one's choice whether to cheat and bribe or not. The question here is if some people are so unhappy with the current situation why do they ignore the issue, why do they often encourage such behavior and why don't they try to do something about it? The author of the article although seems to be unhappy and disappointed, yet she admitted cheating herself. Did she try to report the issue or encourage her classmates to change their behavior? we don't have to answer this question since the answer is obviously clear.
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I have never cheated neither at my college nor my university. The reason for that is not only my desire to know the subject well and become an expert in my field but also my belief in honesty and justice. I wanted to become a lawyer so that I could change the situation in the country for the better one day or make some difference in the individual lives.
Here is the example of an action that could be taken. My fellow student in Ukraine, after his graduation from my University and obtaining a job in the district attorney's office, turned in the department chair of my school. The department chair took money from new students in the exchange of the school admission. Besides of that, he accepted the money as a payment for grades. Anyway, he was set up and brought up to justice. Unfortunately, he was let out on parole. Well, at least he's got a record now. I was a student of his during my freshman's year. I did not have to pay anything. He did not demand the money. He actually was an excellent instructor who knew the subject very well. I was one of the best students in that class. My point is that you don't have to pay if you prepare for your exams. Of course, when you are not satisfied with your final grade you can offer the money for a better one. Most likely, professor would accept it. However, I knew some instructors who would never-ever take bribes. Moreover, if you had tried to approach them you could get in trouble.  
Finally, no one is forcing you to share your work with your classmates or to strike a conversation as soon as your instructor steps out of the room either. There were students in my classes who continued to work on an assignment even without instructor's presence.
The problem is not in the educational system of Ukraine or Russia per se. The problem is in the social morality, ethics and cultural values. For example, sharing the work, helping the others. Don't you, guys, see the residue of socialism and communistic ideology here? or lets take bribing that is a consequence of being underpaid and, generally, poor economy. FSU countries are still on the collectivism side although they are trying hard "to westernize" themselves. Unfortunately, from my perspective, the first and the foremost thing that they need to adopt from the West is the western mentality, sense of responsibility and high ethical standards. Sadly, I don't believe it is going to happen any time soon.            

[mies]

It would be interesting to hear from those here WHO HAVE STUDIED OR TAUGHT IN BOTH FSU AND USA.  Lily, Blues Fairy, VWRW and others; what have you to say?

Yes, yes, I know this article is about Ukraine, but it refers to Soviet mentality.  So those of you with Russian experience, please don't dismiss it as not relevant.

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Poorly rated universities in Ukraine? No surprise  | Nataliya Horban

I strongly disagree with everything in the cited newspaper article, except for the academic integrity/plagiarism part.

the girl (Nataliya Horban) who has experienced:
1) ukrainian high-school teachers
2) american high-school teachers
3) professors in a new, private, and overall poorly rated college in Ukraine

is comparing the:
4) professors in conventional Ukrainian universities
and
5) professors in the U.S. colleges

both of whom she has never met through her studies, as well as draws conclusions about the Universities in these two countries while having 0 experience of either.
The common perception of the Christian university by the students and faculty of other schools in Kyiv used to be that CU students have very weak/undemanding program, it is easy to get into that school because it is private, and generally - anybody who can pay the tuition is admitted. That says something about students who "out of desperation" (meaning "desperation that they would not make it through admission exams") chosen that school.
Things might have changed, and maybe now they have better reputation.

Academic integrity is an issue in many FSU colleges, but there are professors who are very strict about academic rules, and students do not cheat in their classes. If you ask me from which classes I gained more knowledge - those where I cheated at exams, or those where I didn't cheat - there is really no correlation. I spent so much time and effort preparing cheat sheets that I knew everything needed for exam, and it still remains engraved in my memory. In a class where everybody cheats - it would be dumb to not do the same, putting myself in disadvantaged position.
 
Whether this fact says anything about FSU mentality - it would make more sense to speak about corruption on all levels of society. Academic (dis)integrity is just one facet of this complex societal problem.
Does it affect quality of education? No. Those who want to study - study. Those who don't want to study - do not. Nobody checks the GPA after graduation, and having "korochka" - diploma, is sufficient. But then employers weed out those fresh graduates who are incompetent.
I hope this answers your question
I have studied and taught both in Ukraine and in USA, college-level.