Scam - or NOT a Scam ?

[ECOCKS]

I really don't get a lot of what's written here.

Most of you are only viewing the end result while my understanding was that Dan's proposal involved documenting the process. What do the "chat girls" really offer to set the hook while you use up your free credits? What exact types of gals are initiating responses  with regard to offers and apparent view of things like age range, location, intent to visit, etc.? Are the letters personal or seem to be coming from a translator who is only saying what you want to hear? Will the girls move off the communications system upon request after professing their "affection" for the guy? How does the making visit arrangement phase progress? Are they insisting on their own interpreters, apartments, drivers, cash stipends, first-class tickets? These things seem definitive and easily documented for later discussion and understanding.

A single, honest guy, logging onto the web site, using the 20 free chat credits and maybe another 30 or so, critically considering his emails received as first contact and responses to his queries based upon his contact choices, watching for suspicious requests (money, situations, etc.), trying to move any of real interest to him off the agency communications system and progressing on to setting up visits seems to have value if done like a responsible project by someone who is experienced at spotting scams and still looking for their match.

[Faux Pas]

Lazarus

The "moral threshold" is as varied as there are participants. One man's innocence is another's decadence. The scenario you describe I do not see as a scam. IMHO. it is not a scam until as long as you receive what you believed you were buying. That scenario is deceitful but not all deceit is a scam

[Lazarus]

Yes, BUT she continues to do her "job" at the agency while waiting to meet the AM.
Her job being: separating men from their money.  :evil:


Laz

[Jumper]

Laz-
if pointing moral or ethical compasses ,then your scenario can be  more complex than that..

lets interject that while she decided she might like this man ,  she hopes it works out but it might not ,maybe she feels if it doesn't .then she still wants to search.. *while working*

(that is pretty minor stuff in the scheme of agency ethics)

on his end he decided he likes her.. 
hopes it will work out ,
but if it ultimately doesn't, he will keep looking ..it is life.

does he quit his day job?
does he pull his profile?

why should she?

shades of grey,
at what point is it scam? commited relationship or  engagement?


and you are only speculating the *waiting to meet stage* for her!
he hasn't boarded the plane yet , and you have no idea how many times she has already heard this story from a thousand keyboard romeos , every day in fact.
(is that scam? it would be if she quit her job? rented  aflat for him?
 just curious where that ethics compass swings)

Frankly she certainly SHOULD at that point keep her profile and work going ,, if she is interested
 in meeting a foreign man ,she owes this man nothing.

plenty of men get *sick grandmothers* too!!
 we just had one on the board.. ?
whether his excuse was legit or not legit ,doesn't matter,  the point remains he din't travel.
hey it happens.
in your scenario she should have ended her profile, and/or quit her job?

Reality and ethics may collide ,, a bit.


 

[Jumper]

Ed-
fair enough ..
and already done ,
what's exactly to document?

the percentages?

I probably had 7 or 8,000 responses in about 3 or 4 months..
but yes many of the women write multiple times.. this could be sincere,
 or an agency worker right? I know of both cases , how to do statistics on it?
anyway despite the fact these would be wacked out percentages ,
it just wasn't that hard to find sincere women there.

also there would be some guesswork?
some that seemed sincere in every way might fall off the radar , this could be agency *bs*,
or simply they met someone special. It would be me making an educated guess at best,
or anyone else doing the experiment

Hey , lets make up statistics , as it's the nature of the 'net! lol

consider the shear number of profiles,,  if 10% are "working" and writing..
any mans in-box would be flooded.
(you'd need to do the women's profiles to men's profiles ratio? )

it wouldn't negate the 90% of sincere profiles ,but it would make wading through the reams of "spam" difficult and use a mans credits..

isn't this the basis for the oft touted advice "use agencies with a good  business model for you"?


i'm feeling fiesty today, so will throw a monkey wrench out there.
of the thousands of men's profiles ..there.
how many are actually sincere and completely genuine in their intent  to fly, meet ,go through the visa process and marry a RW?

No this doesnt absolve any agency of deceitful practices..
we are speaking of the businesses themselves ,
and not the particpants.

but in a field of grey , it seems relevant in the discussion that if an agency is 'scaming' said customer..
by deceit of "genuine intent" on the women's part.

 how many male customers are genuine to begin with? 
I can tell you quite planly many many men on such sites are not serious , simply enjoy the ego boost of chatting ,and certainly many are MARRIED.
Also many openly confide these things to the girls.

So in this instance  anastasia is providing a service ?
in the case of the innocent man with geniune intent, they are  scamming him..?

Since at best we could only hope to  document percentages ..
The number of insincere men profiles against the overall site content would be relevant as well?


How well the guy can read the responces and the profiles,
is going to have everything to do with whether he spends his 20 credits wisely or not .
to me ,it's  that simple.


This is true of any fsu marriage agency.
The difference is the level of the agencies percentage of involvement in it all?

The ones with this business model are exactly what you stated.
They are designed to fleece the non-serious keyboard romeo ,as that is a huge percentage of men are. Any business will go after the marketplace ,and sadly that is the market!!

 We hold them up to the flame ,because indeed that business model is not ethical or good for a
the more rare serious man, and because the promote the same fantasy to both.

[Faux Pas]

Yes, BUT she continues to do her "job" at the agency while waiting to meet the AM.
Her job being: separating men from their money.  :evil:


Laz

A fool and his money, soon part.  Eventually even the most foolish begin to (or should begin to) question just "what hell is going on here". If they are paying for the lady to chat on cam, or write them letters and thats what they get, again, where's the scam? Deceit isn't necessarily scam. A complete guess on my part is, "most" of these guys are paying for attention from a young hardbody and they're getting it. 

[Sculpto]

AJ.. your post confirms to me that the MOB is a waste of time and money.  There are many other ways to find FSUW that simply do not have any of the scam concerns.

[ECOCKS]

Ed-
fair enough ..
and already done ,
what's exactly to document?

the percentages?

I probably had 7 or 8,000 responses in about 3 or 4 months..
but yes many of the women write multiple times.. this could be sincere,
 or an agency worker right? I know of both cases , how to do statistics on it?
anyway despite the fact these would be wacked out percentages ,
it just wasn't that hard to find sincere women there.

also there would be some guesswork?
some that seemed sincere in every way might fall off the radar , this could be agency *bs*,
or simply they met someone special. It would be me making an educated guess at best,
or anyone else doing the experiment

Hey , lets make up statistics , as it's the nature of the 'net! lol

consider the shear number of profiles,,  if 10% are "working" and writing..
any mans in-box would be flooded.
(you'd need to do the women's profiles to men's profiles ratio? )

it wouldn't negate the 90% of sincere profiles ,but it would make wading through the reams of "spam" difficult and use a mans credits..

isn't this the basis for the oft touted advice "use agencies with a good  business model for you"?


i'm feeling fiesty today, so will throw a monkey wrench out there.
of the thousands of men's profiles ..there.
how many are actually sincere and completely genuine in their intent  to fly, meet ,go through the visa process and marry a RW?

No this doesnt absolve any agency of deceitful practices..
we are speaking of the businesses themselves ,
and not the particpants.

but in a field of grey , it seems relevant in the discussion that if an agency is 'scaming' said customer..
by deceit of "genuine intent" on the women's part.

 how many male customers are genuine to begin with? 
I can tell you quite planly many many men on such sites are not serious , simply enjoy the ego boost of chatting ,and certainly many are MARRIED.
Also many openly confide these things to the girls.

So in this instance  anastasia is providing a service ?
in the case of the innocent man with geniune intent, they are  scamming him..?

Since at best we could only hope to  document percentages ..
The number of insincere men profiles against the overall site content would be relevant as well?


How well the guy can read the responces and the profiles,
is going to have everything to do with whether he spends his 20 credits wisely or not .
to me ,it's  that simple.


This is true of any fsu marriage agency.
The difference is the level of the agencies percentage of involvement in it all?

The ones with this business model are exactly what you stated.
They are designed to fleece the non-serious keyboard romeo ,as that is a huge percentage of men are. Any business will go after the marketplace ,and sadly that is the market!!

 We hold them up to the flame ,because indeed that business model is not ethical or good for a
the more rare serious man, and because the promote the same fantasy to both.

OK, then don't do it if this has "been done".

Personally, I haven't seen a project which shows this  process from beginning to end with pics, thoughts and complete responses and rejoinders in one spot by someone who is known and generally trusted by their peers. All I have seen and heard of is guys complaining they were scammed and occasionally posting bits and pieces of odds and ends to prove their point. along with a couple of guys claiming that this is manageable and they married gals off of AWEB.

Dan, I think the project would have had merit if structured properly and well-documented.

[Gylden]

IMO as presented in the OP there is clearly no scam. Maybe intent to scam or to be polite and invitation to a scam, but the scam itself doesn't occur until one buys more credits.

 

[Gator]

I've just joined this site,and I've recently joined Anastasia,so I'm happy to post my experiences,so you can determine whether it's a scam or not.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ALL OF YOU IGNORED CHELSEABOY'S OFFER.

I am sure he has saved the correspondence for someone to review.  He can describe the AW representations and transactions.

Many men have reported in the RWD archives about such encounters with AW.  Each represents an example for a retrospective study.

Why are you doing all this mental masturbation about what could happen?  Much has already happened.  We only need to contact each man who has used AW and complete a standard form about the the transactions and results.  This is a retrospective study.

I am prepared to go and meet any of these girls,if things progress that far,and my intentions are sincere and honorable.

Thanks Chelseaboy.  I hope everything goes well.

My concern is whether these girls are actually involved in the letter writing process,or whether it's all done by local agency staff,which would make it a scam to my mind.

At best any letter to you was written by an interpreter after reading your letter over the phone to the RW.  The terp will take notes of the RW's reaction and then write a response to you.   In the worst case the RW never knows that you are writing her.  What is the percentage split between best and worst cases?  I don't know.

Sometimes men travel to meet RW who were in the worst case scenario.  The agency compels the RW to show up for one meeting.  The RW then learns he has been writing her for 6 months.  She may like him.  If not, her grandmother will suddenly become ill.

Remember the third of RWD's 10 commandments:  Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.  That is difficult to do at AW.  I suggest that you try.

[Gator]

Dan, I think the project would have had merit if structured properly and well-documented.

Agree.  But use the actual AW encounter experience of Chelseaboy and other RWD men.  Analyze each using a standard format.  Such is a retrospective study.

Then analyze the information for patterns, e. g. what did AW represent? 

[Shadow]

In order to get a valued opinion, we first need to establish what we want to know to label the process a scam. So what are the milestones ?

1. Are the expressions of itnerest real, or picked by a (manual or automated) system ?
2. Are the women appearing in chat really looking for a partner or paid to make the cash flow running ?
To expand on this point, knowing some software products, are the women actually real, or are they animated by the people who type the chat messages ?
3. Are the letters written or dictated by the women of the profile, or written by agencies to catch money?
4. Do the women in the profiles exist, and are they aware of all men who write them ?
5. Does AWeb play only a controlling part, or ar they actively promoting a certain business model ?

For this I have a rather weird suggestion, that may be hard to put in to working.
Instead of using a real person, which will only lead to a selection that can be labeled as non-representative, how about creating a questionnaire to send to the women who contact.
In the best case, there wil be various responses on how things work from different kind of women/translators/agencies. In the worst case the account will be banned.

[GQBlues]

Curious. How many amongst you think or believe 'Vegas' is a scam? Is it designed to separate you from your money? Are those heavily discounted, or even free, meals and rooms simply a bait to get you on board?

[SANDRO43]

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ALL OF YOU IGNORED CHELSEABOY'S OFFER.

I did not, see Reply #44 upthread .

[Faux Pas]

Curious. How many amongst you think or believe 'Vegas' is a scam? Is it designed to separate you from your money? Are those heavily discounted, or even free, meals and rooms simply a bait to get you on board?

IMHO, Vegas is not a scam. They deliver on what they say. You can get what is perceived as the free rooms and meals but, they ain't free.  The fantasy of becoming rich is borne in the mind of the gambler. Very closely related to this scenario.

[Sculpto]

IMHO, Vegas is not a scam. They deliver on what they say. You can get what is perceived as the free rooms and meals but, they ain't free.  The fantasy of becoming rich is borne in the mind of the gambler. Very closely related to this scenario.

The difference is they don't pretend to be something they aren't.  Few people have illusions that when they go to PLAY they are doing anything but PLAYING. 

I have cut and pasted the text from their front page.. so what are they selling?  Are there ANY illusions about what the pitch is? 

 

The Anastasia Experience is...

Thousands of beautiful ladies from Russia and the Ukraine
   You have the opportunity to communicate with beautiful ladies, who have been verified and selected out of tens of thousands of applicants and many of whom are looking for someone like you.
A continuing story of success
   Beautiful things happen here. The gentlemen and ladies make successful connections and elevate simple communication to a meaningful experience.
Your style and personality clearly expressed
   Your correspondence is translated by professional translators, guaranteeing that the ladies understand your views and intentions.
Our trademark personal approach
   Anastasia International has existed since 1993 and we are proud of the personal approach that we bring to this business.
A unique profile displaying your best qualities
   Your personal profile will be seen by thousands of Russian and Ukrainian brides to see and many will take the opportunity to write to you first.

[ECOCKS]

Curious. How many amongst you think or believe 'Vegas' is a scam? Is it designed to separate you from your money? Are those heavily discounted, or even free, meals and rooms simply a bait to get you on board?

That was my original response.

Vegas offers the allure of money to be won through gambling along with their various meal deals, shows and rooms for entertainment and relaxation.

This site offers the allure of meeting a lovely young woman on their site by building a relationship along with enjoying the selection amongst various bodies, faces, suggestive comments, exotic locations, etc.

I see marketing ploys in both. Vegas emphasizing riches and luxury versus sleazy sexual innuendo which some equate with a chance for romance. As mentioned, at least Vegas delivers on the meals and luxury. My estimation is that the site delivers very little sex and even less real romance excepting those who get a perverted thrill from paying for this sort of thing.

[Gator]

I did not, see Reply #44 upthread .

  

I stand corrected.

I read the first phrase of your first sentence at the same time I saw the photo.  I jumped to the conclusion that you were declining because you lost your teeth.  

[Sculpto]

well I think we better get a clear definition of what is a scam in the MOB or this experiment isn't going to be very useful.

[GQBlues]

IMHO, Vegas is not a scam. [...] The fantasy of becoming rich is borne in the mind of the gambler. Very closely related to this scenario.

So maybe the perception, and not necessarily the definition, of the word scam is where we differ. In my way of thinking, anything that gives the impression that there's a higher likelihood you will get 'more bang for your buck' (bundles of money in Vegas - hot, young and sexy dev with AW) than any other means and method is a scam to me. The state lottery is a scam to me. Publisher's Clearing House is a scam to me.

Vegas' free room and board gives the participant delusions of living the high life and a taste of the life of luxury just like AWs video chat using your complimentary credits as a glimpse of what may soon be knocking on your door; are acts of scamming to me.

No one in their rational mind would openly invest a tidy sum of money on a far less than an equitable chance of succeeding. Like Vegas, AW tweaks that reality a bit to make the fantasy seem more likely than it really is.

edit to add: It appears ECOCKS posted the same thoughts I did....
add II: a Ponzi Scheme (Bernard Madoff's acts) is a scam to me...he gave a payout for a while, but by and large he scammed a lot of people for a lot of money.

[Gator]

Vegas vs. AnastasiaDate

Both are packaging an opportunity.  One to play, the other to date.

The difference is that everyone knows what happens in Vegas.  Few know the RW agency experience.

Sculpto, the text you quoted from AnastasiaDate leaves a lot to the imagination.  It does not say that a man can put a collar and leash on a pretty RW and take her home.   Given the name AnastasiaDate, I say it is packaging an opportunity to date a pretty RW.  How many men who join Anastasia want to get married vs. date a young sexy girl?

Of all that AnasatasiaDate expressed, IMO the largest misrepresentation is the following:

Your correspondence is translated by professional translators, guaranteeing that the ladies understand your views and intentions.

My opinion based on hearsay (or should I say readwrite) is that some RW (the young popular women) are not informed of all letters.

How do you substantiate  if that is true?  Only if the RW admits to such.

[SANDRO43]

I read the first phrase of your first sentence at the same time I saw the photo.  I jumped to the conclusion that you were declining because you lost your teeth.  

I still have all my teeth - or titanium implants in lieu thereof - but you're losing attention, an unrepairable loss .

[Jooky]

clear definition of what is a scam in the MOB

For me the scam occurs when:

Women write to you with the sole purpose of spending your credits.
Women who have no interest in you are paid to converse with you.
You are communicating with an agency employee and not the woman in the profile.

The Vegas equivalent would be a row of slot machines with a multi million dollar payout advertised that are rigged to not pay out a single dime.

I took the steps Dan listed in the original post. So far, no hot chicks have messaged me.  

It's only been a few minutes though...

[SANDRO43]

I took the steps Dan listed in the original post. So far, no hot chicks have messaged me.   It's only been a few minutes though...

Duck !

[Gator]

I still have all my teeth - or titanium implants in lieu thereof - but you're losing attention, an unrepairable loss .

I can not lose something that I never had.