Scam - or NOT a Scam ?

[Faux Pas]

Unless they can prove he absent-mindedly went to the WRONG building, was looking at a loss in that location, and could not explain why he wanted to remodel drastically a cellar he had no title to .

One step further, he could have all his faculties, planned on being in the building two doors down and burrowing from there but, never scratched the surface. He has committed no crime. Unless of course he broke into the building in the first place which would have already been in commission of the crime 

[Daveman]

I think we're quibbling as to when the actual scam occurs, some maintaining only after a disbursement of money occurs, others in the intentions and/or preparations thereof.

Maybe we're influenced by our local laws. In our case, a group of citizens burrowing next to a bank vault will be arrested and convicted for ATTEMPTED BURGLARY - digging tools and implements for a break-in are considered sufficient evidence for that .

That's why I always carry a dead body with me whenever I burrow next to a bank... then the worst I'll get is something like "running a cemetery without a license" or something similar... Git 'er Done

[SANDRO43]

That's why I always carry a dead body with me whenever I burrow next to a bank...

Remember to give him/her a nice smile :

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxbAR5USc5E[/youtube]

[ECOCKS]

That's why I always carry a dead body with me whenever I burrow next to a bank... then the worst I'll get is something like "running a cemetery without a license" or something similar... Git 'er Done

Funny.

Almost as funny as the thought that 7 guys from one of the most destitute areas on the planet climbed into a small boat, went 200 miles out to sea, got lost and fired their guns at this big gray ship passing by just to ask for rescue.

And the hooker can pretend she really was ready and willing to paint the guy's house for $200 when she told him "For $200 I'll do ANYTHING you want me to do." (Thanks Rodney D.)

And the beggar can say she was sitting on the steps into the metro all morning hoping a fly would land on her palm and she has no clue why some people put money in it.

And we won't pay the cops since, of course, they're not cops until they arrest somebody.

And BTW Sandro even if the crime was attempted burglary, those guys would still be burglars and not attempted burglars.

And that gal is a scammer, not an attempted scammer, not a peasant girl, not a dishwasher.

[Jooky]

If RWD has $36.00 in petty cash, we can find out if fat yuri has improved his writing skills. 

Laz

I used up my 20 complementary credits and opened two letters.

I wouldn't even call these letters. They are cut and paste profile descriptions.

[Chelseaboy]

OK,I've now been on the site for 17 days,and I've received unsolicited letters from 105 "ladies" ( i use the word loosely,because who knows who wrote these letters)

As for it being a scam,well nothing concrete yet,but to my mind, if a company is advertising its services as introducing men to MARRIAGE-MINDED women in the FSU,and those women's only interest is not in finding a husband,but is in fact just to part a man from his money,because it's her job,well that is a scam .

One girl has already admitted to me that local agency girls in Ukraine are paid to communicate with foreign men,and we're not talking about interpreters here.

[Jooky]

If one party enters into an agreement with another to supply contact with women and then delivers on his promise, no scam has occurred.

But does the site simply promise 'contact with women' and nothing more?

On a international marriage site, it's implied that the women listed are actually interested in international marriage.

In real dating, when you are approached first, it's implied that the lady making the first move has at least some interest in getting to know more about you.

It's clear to me that the first contacts I received are not from real women with intentions of learning more about the man presented in my blank profile. Most likely these are not contacts from the women in the photos at all.

[Admin]

But does the site simply promise 'contact with women' and nothing more?

On a international marriage site, it's implied that the women listed are actually interested in international marriage.

In real dating, when you are approached first, it's implied that the lady making the first move has at least some interest in getting to know more about you.

It's clear to me that the first contacts I received are not from real women with intentions of learning more about the man presented in my blank profile. Most likely these are not contacts from the women in the photos at all.

That would be my guess - and was my suspicion when I first saw them.

My thought was to dismiss any unsolicited contacts and to pursue only those contacts I initiated.

Jooky and Chelseaboy - contact me in PM and lets see how we can arrange for RWD to pick up the costs for you to pursue this further if you care to continue on.

- Dan

[Faux Pas]

But does the site simply promise 'contact with women' and nothing more?

On a international marriage site, it's implied that the women listed are actually interested in international marriage.

In real dating, when you are approached first, it's implied that the lady making the first move has at least some interest in getting to know more about you.

It's clear to me that the first contacts I received are not from real women with intentions of learning more about the man presented in my blank profile. Most likely these are not contacts from the women in the photos at all.

Ah, at last! It would appear to me that here a scam has been perpetrated. This is MUCH better than tossing out imaginary redherrings to attack.  

When they took your money and promised contact with marriage minded women and none occurred, a scam has occurred IMO. That is if those emails are not from women at all. Or if the women are not marriage minded. This would constitute a scam. They took your money and failed to deliver the goods (intentionally)

[Admin]

Ah, at last! It would appear to me that here a scam has been perpetrated. This is MUCH better than tossing out imaginary redherrings to attack. 

When they took your money and promised contact with marriage minded women and none occurred, a scam has occurred IMO. That is if those emails are not from women at all. Or if the women are not marriage minded. This would constitute a scam. They took your money and failed to deliver the goods (intentionally)

My take on it is a little different - AND - my take may be totally wrong, but here it is:

* Any agency has the right (some would argue it is an obligation) to present its 'product'
* Any unsolicited contact, IMO, is suspect and failing some compelling reason to believe otherwise, my conclusion is that an unsolicited contact is just like the Nigerian-based email offers that used to deluge my in-box
* If ANY unsolicited offer comes to me, I have the option to ignore it - and I would. I simply would dismiss it as not credible
* That leaves ONLY those contacts resulting from MY initiation - but that is OK because I would never be so presumptuous to believe that smokinhotkovas (who also might be 'marriage material') are going to be jumping out of their knickers to make contact with me - or just about anyone else, for that matter.

We still have not begun the process to determine if there is a scam (or for those who have already declared such - MORE scam) in those instances where WE initiate contact.

This other - the receipt of unsolicited contacts - IMO, is nothing more than what Sandro once described as "window dressing" and is purely advertisement. AND - I will not spend a single nickel (or 'credit') if I do not click on the options presented.




So shoot me down now. I can take it.

Waiting . . . . .

- Dan

[Faux Pas]

Dan

If Aweb or any other agency proposes to offer "contact" with marriage minded FSUW and accept money for doing so, then fail to produce, that is a scam. Unsolicited, office or computer generated emails is not contact to women IMO. In my mind, marriage agencies are like anything else and it is "buyer beware". The relationship between agency and unsuspecting man is a 50/50 relationship. Unsuspecting man's half is providing payment, agency's is providing promised contact with women. Jooky suspects none are from women although purported to be, agency failed

[Admin]

Dan

If Aweb or any other agency proposes to offer "contact" with marriage minded FSUW and accept money for doing so, then fail to produce, that is a scam. Unsolicited, office or computer generated emails is not contact to women IMO. In my mind, marriage agencies are like anything else and it is "buyer beware". The relationship between agency and unsuspecting man is a 50/50 relationship. Unsuspecting man's half is providing payment, agency's is providing promised contact with women. Jooky suspects none are from women although purported to be, agency failed

Is the performance contract that these marriage-minded ladies will contact you - or that you may contact them?

It is an important distinction.

If they (the IMB) creates a facility whereby I am able to make contact with sincere women, then it seems to me they have met the burden of fulfilling their promise of offering contact.

Yes - No?

- Dan

[Gator]

I don't feel left out.  I thought the letters would come to my email inbox.  Nope, they were sent to the inbox for my AnasatsiaDate inbox.

I received 21 letters from women.  I gave my age as 65, and the women's ages range from 39-50.  Most are rather ordinary, and I would never  consider them given the quality of women who responded favorably to my real letters at EM and RussianEuro.

None impress me.  I am reserving my complimentary credits for something more worthy.

Here are some representations:

Welcome to AnastasiaDate.com, the easiest and most advanced way to meet the most beautiful and eligible Russian Ladies imaginable.

To get you started, we have placed 20 complimentary credits on Your Account! Enjoy them with any of the great ways Anastasia offers to help you get close to the many thousands of delicious Ladies here.

Visit Anasatasia-international.com to find thousands of potential brides from Russia and Ukraine.

Nothing seems out of line.

[Jumper]

Dan, my recent experience is not with Aweb, but same exact business model
(and most of the same women's profiles)

I initiated no contacts,in message or chat invitations.
I received an average of 150 to 200 letters per day,and numerous chat invites.

I felt much of it was agency generated ,but mostly in the form of the ladies being pressured
(or paid) to contact men.

Certainly some sincere letters and chat invites as well.
Obviously I followed up on only the ones that i felt were a good possibilty of compatibilty and sincere.
I met in person a sincere woman.

The agency provided the medium to contact sincere women.
I did so, and was satisfied with their service.

some were not sincere.(just like any other agency)

I cannot see how I was scammed.
Especially considering the fact i went into it knowing the higher or lower percebntages of sincere vs insincere profiles.

I'm certain a naive or inexperienced man ,could easily be scammed there..
(but by whom exactly? the woman? the afflitate agency? or the parent agency?)
and never meet anyone sincere.

If i had met an insincere woman .. it would be scam.,,but only if the agency itself had
foreknowledge of her insincerity.The business model of Aweb distances them neatly from the affiliates.(i'm sure intentionally with a wink wink nod nod )

i think it is like  trying to nail down jello.

The definition of scam is what seems the sticky part?
and it stems from customer expectation?

as jooky and FP describe ,
if a man signed up (paid)  expecting ALL the members to be legitmate contacts,
or all the women that contact him to be sincere (or even women)
then it constitutes a scam
that makes sense!
 but is an interesting perspective..
because of course if you carry that out even a little bit , at almost any given agency ,
would be the same?as not ALL members are sincere anywhere?
 and yuri lurks at most places...

so no sane man  "expects" 100% sincere profiles or women at any given agency.

The key point would be the agencies awareness? right?
or the other stumbling block is if they HIRE women to do the contacting.

I throw something out there ..lol
"if" these types of agencies hire women, it does not mean the women are not single and available,nor does it  mean they are NOT looking.

If you are a serious RW ,look at it pragmatically (get rid of those emotions)
What better way to increase your rather poor odds,
and look for a foreign man than to be paid to be in contact with them 8 or 10 hours a day?

I understand it is not a pleasant thought for the men here.The truths in this endeavor seldom are.

Granted most of the young girls are college students, doing it for fun and extra $.
 
but how many men here, really even think about the realities of the FSU.
and how a serious 38yo with 2 children, could BEST increase her odds of finding a foreign man?

if you think of a better way.. let me know ?
and by *better*  i mean in terms of exposer to more possibilites ,and increased odds of actually meeting and actually marrying someone.
I do not mean guys to get on some high horse of ethics,
if she is seriously looking, it meets the criteria the agency presented to  them.


Now- If the agencies in question stated  that *some* of the single available women are paid to write and chat.       no scam at all is present?
too funny huh?

If they don't state it in blazing letters on the first page ,, yet all the women ,whether freelance profiles or hired by the agency , are single available and looking,,

the jello shifts ..?

it becomes simply an expectation by the customer of full  transparency?
(understandable but naive)

We all know a LOT of quite reputable companies in all fields of products, or services,  are not that level of transparent in their marketing or advertising.

Is not being 100% transparent and offering full disclosure a scam?
 
The only actual  scam i see ,in the examples given:
 
If the initial or followup  contact is from:
1. a man
2. computer generated
3. a women known by the agency as not interested in marriage.

again if i went back through the 7 or 8 thousand messages,how to quantify
how many would fit under those three headings?

Generally i would say many were from  women who work at writing ,
 but i would also stat in my experience that most were not men or terps , or computer generated,,
and were from women who likely were in fact available and single,
its just a job often for young students ,  and they *would* be interested if the right guy for them made contact or replied. (someone age appropriate , and interesting)..
and certainly some sincere messages.


I'll share something to stir discussion more :

Since i do know the ins and outs pretty well ,
 I'll say that a very  large percentage of mens profiles on such sites are from:
1. openly married men
2.secretly married men.
3.men openly looking only for a good time and certainly not marriage.
4.men secretly looking for a good time and certainly not marriage
5.men simply bored ,and enjoying either the messages or chat feature
(many of whom are quite open to the girls about the fact that  they only wish to chat and no intention of meeting)

the very lowest percent of men's profiles would be sincere men ,
that are at a point in their lives capable and willing to follow thru,travel ,and marry a RW.

This doesn't change the expectation that the agencies behave ethically..

but it is food for thought?
it is the real marketplace for an agency, so they can position themselves to do well
in that market , or not.

I advise sincere men to take the reality pill.
You are NOT the marketplace, and the business models are not designed with you in mind.
Face that : adapt ,or don't use the agencies.

[Jooky]

Nothing seems out of line.

Yup, what you mentioned sounds reasonable, but I think it depends on how much effort you put into your profile so far.

I try to put things in perspective of what is possible, what is reasonable, what is probable and what is comparable to my experiences with other sites.

For example:

The first letter I received was from a very beautiful lady, but she's just a few years younger than me and has a kid.

If I had a detailed profile on a trusted site and had written to her first, I'd expect her to write me back. I'd actually be surprised if she didn't.

If I had a detailed profile with my photo and real information (mentioning that I am often in Russia) it's probable that a lady like this would contact me first. I wouldn't be too surprised.

However, there is nothing in my profile. That means this woman is desperate enough to contact any new profile meeting some basic age criteria... or that this is not a real lady contacting me at all but an automated message intended to use up my credit.

Because of her age and the fact that she has a kid, she could be that desperate, but given her looks it's not very likely. Still it's within reason.

The next letter. 23 year old, 5'9" super model type. Would a girl like this write to me first if I had a real profile? Maybe, but not likely. Would a girl like this need to write every 40 year old dude in hopes of getting some attention? No.

The next ten letters are the same. 18-23 year old model types. Not probable and not reasonable.

I can compare to Elena's Models. On Elena's my blank profile (before I filled it out and added a photo) also received first contact emails. However, these were from not so attractive ladies close to my age. It's understandable that these ladies were not getting that much attention and might feel the need to spam every new profile that came along just to get some views.

[Jooky]

That's an interesting perspective, AJ, and I agree but...

This also brings out the main problem with agency sites like A-Web, HRB and others.

Their business model encourages individual women to scam even if they are truly seeking a husband.

Affiliates are pressured to generate business. In turn they hire ladies, pressure the real ladies to write to men they're not interested in, or send out intros on their behalf.

[Shadow]

I think we can conclude that the inbox letter will mainly be generated by what is called a robot. This is a piece of software that checks the contents of profiles, and makes a match.

This would explain why profiles with a lower age would receive more mails, and profiles with higher age and/or more restricted search patterns receive less.
They may be masked as inbox letter, however this does not differ from sites like Match who daily send updates on which new profiles meet search criteria.

This is no more a scam than receiving a mail you won a car.......provided that you fill in your personal data for marketing purposes and will be the one drawn in the lottery that will take place in 3 months...

As for people being pressurized, there is no need to do this as the system will be largely automated. Affiliates may have requirements to feed a regular stream of new profiles, and receive a bonus for certain levels of activity.  This has nothing to do with pressure and more with running a business. It is the level of ethics of the affiliates if they will use this system to earn more as they would when operating without any malpractice.

[Gator]

The "reasonable man doctrine" is an important part of American jurisprudence in negigence cases.  What care would a reasonable person have taken under the same circumstances, knowing what he knew at the time?

In this case a man is harming himself, not others, if he spends his money, time and emotions on pretty RW who wrote him first.  These women I presume are decades younger than him and probably more attractive physically than anyone he has dated in recent years.  Should he believe that these women are sincerely interested in him and the prospects of marriage?  Or should he exercise some doubt and proceed accordingly.

Are we endeavoring to protect those suffering from temporary insanity?  The stupid?

[BC]

Are we endeavoring to protect those suffering from temporary insanity?  The stupid?

No, but there are a lot of accusations of 'I coulda' or 'woulda'.

Cases that the Supreme Court would agree to hear have to be initiated by a harmed party, not someone that coulda dun this or that..

Hypothetical accusations abound though.. many drummed up by anti-scam marketeers.

[BC]

BTW, after so many years in business, have any of these companies been involved in any litigation whatsoever regarding the services they offer?

That should give a good baseline as to acceptability of their business practices.

[Jooky]

Shadow, it does seem automated at this point, especially since I've been receiving emails in batches of about 5 at a time.

Gator, the problem is that these first contact responses might seem reasonable to a lot of guys. (or at least some). In your case, for example, the emails came from older, not so attractive ladies, but it's logical to assume that they were sent through the same system that's sending contacts to me and others.

Honestly, I've dated prettier ladies in the same age range as the contacts I'm getting now (and some in my latest batch I would never even consider dating). If I contacted these type of girls on mamba or bride.ru, I'd expect a decent response rate. However, I wouldn't expect these girls to contact a blank profile and I wouldn't normally expect them to contact me first with a real profile up, but... it's not that much of a stretch.

So that's the tricky part... for a lot men these first contacts might seem reasonable, especially given all the hype about Russian brides.

[tim 360]

Reading all this I checked my mail at an agency very similiar to AWeb which I set up 5 years ago to show a guy from this board he was being scammed.  Royally.  As usual in the last 25 days I have received over 120 initial correspondences from beautiful women 18-30 who want to get to know me better by emails which I get to pay for.  Every month I get hundreds.  If I delete them all today within a week I'll have a hundred more.  They like to keep my mailbox full.

They are trying to scam me to pay for letters and that I am confident is their intent.  But in my mind it is not a scam until I am stupid enough to pay.  Certainly, the agency is guilty of conspiracy to defraud the niave.

[BC]

Certainly, the agency is guilty of conspiracy to defraud the niave.

So is Colgate when they advertise buying their toothpaste will make teeth whiter than any other competing brand.

Biggest fraud would then be is MPG ratings on new automobiles.

[Sculpto]

"There is a sucker born every day"

Sorry the colgate comparison is ridiculous.  Why? 

So.. years ago I had a membership to A-Web.  I spend less than $50 opening letters until I realized the letters were not genuine.  I then asked to have my profile removed.

My profile was not removed and periodically I would get a letter from them saying i had mail in my box.  I would log in and find hundreds of unopened letters.

Finally I asked them to stop spamming me and remove my profile and all personal information from their system.

For about a year I stopped getting mail from them.  Recently I started again getting bait spam from their affiliate marketing program.  As part of this experiment i went ot the site and discovered my profile still exists.  And obviously they have been selling or giving away my email address to people who have joined their affiliate marketing program.

Scam or not?

[Admin]

"There is a sucker born every day"

Sorry the colgate comparison is ridiculous.  Why? 

So.. years ago I had a membership to A-Web.  I spend less than $50 opening letters until I realized the letters were not genuine.  I then asked to have my profile removed.

My profile was not removed and periodically I would get a letter from them saying i had mail in my box.  I would log in and find hundreds of unopened letters.

Finally I asked them to stop spamming me and remove my profile and all personal information from their system.

For about a year I stopped getting mail from them.  Recently I started again getting bait spam from their affiliate marketing program.  As part of this experiment i went ot the site and discovered my profile still exists.  And obviously they have been selling or giving away my email address to people who have joined their affiliate marketing program.

Scam or not?

>>Scam or not?<<

Good question.

In the context of what I consider to be a 'scam' I do not see a scam at all. I do see some possibly unscrupulous behavior and maybe even a violation of the CAN-SPAM act - but as described upthread, some (or much) of this is based on expectation - YOUR expectation. To know if there is ANY violation of ethic or law, one would first need to review the policies and agreements in-place at the time of your registration.

For example, was there a Privacy Policy published by them that promised protection of the information you provide? While that appears to be your expectation now, what was the policy you accepted (if any) at that time? If no policy existed, then things become even more murky.

If you look around at some of the IMB/agency websites right now - it is really interesting to me the large proportion that provide no information about site ownership - yet, they ask for all kinds of personal information and even credit card information and people, apparently, give it out - to an unknown and unidentified entity on a website. Many of those same websites have no Terms of Service of Privacy Policy - or if they do, they appear to be cut-and-paste and placed there only to offer the appearance of legitimacy. In some ways, it is really shocking to me that these sites are able to generate enough business to remain in operation - but they do.

In the case of SPAM email, there are some legal protections that must be followed. If you are receiving spam email and cannot stop it, then it is a likely violation of the CAN-SPAM Act, and there are remedies available to you.

- Dan