Scam - or NOT a Scam ?

[Sculpto]

CAN-SPAM Act, and there are remedies available to you.

- Dan

Actually.. the method they are using is via "throwaway" email addresses.. and since the spam is coming through the affiliate program A-Web can not be held accountable.

It is worthy of note that you mention privacy policies and TOS.

Free "lifetime membership" is a term often seen.  Well, it seems they weren't joking when they said "lifetime".

[Sculpto]

if Toyota advertised a vehicle that made all kinds of exaggerated claims.. like 300 mpg and it was impossible to die in a car crash in their auto..

It would be considering false advertising and they could be held accountable and at least forced to change their claims to something more realistic.

MOB sites and agencies do the same thing.. that is.. make unreasonable claims..

The really smart ones like aweb and hrb have enough lawyers on staff to make sure what is written on their sites is extreme enough to let suckers customers fill in the blanks.. but never explicit enough to cross the line.

scam or no scam?

[Admin]

if Toyota advertised a vehicle that made all kinds of exaggerated claims.. like 300 mpg and it was impossible to die in a car crash in their auto..

It would be considering false advertising and they could be held accountable and at least forced to change their claims to something more realistic.

MOB sites and agencies do the same thing.. that is.. make unreasonable claims..

The really smart ones like aweb and hrb have enough lawyers on staff to make sure what is written on their sites is extreme enough to let suckers customers fill in the blanks.. but never explicit enough to cross the line.

scam or no scam?

>>scam or no scam?<<

No scam.

The gist of your argument seems to be that others are guilty of wrongdoing for lying to you, and that they allow you to provide information that is later used to your disbenefit.

There are counter-arguments and principles - such as 'caveat emptor' and due diligence and personal accountability.

A person, any person, should rightly be suspicious of the motives of someone who is trying to sell them something. Caveat emptor.

A person should be expected to conduct their own 'due diligence' before engaging in activities or spending money that constitutes, for them, some risk.

Each of us should hold ourselves as personally accountable for the decisions we make. If/When you make a bad one - man up! Deal with it. Learn from it. Move on.

With application of these three basics - would it make a difference in the accounts of people screaming "SCAM!" ? I suspect it would.

None of this is to suggest that scams do not exist. I am convinced they do. I am equally convinced that a percentage (and it may be a VERY large percentage) of the alleged scams reported, are NOT. Hence, my interest in this topic and the exchange it has generated. And for the record, I am willing to be convinced differently. If scams are far more prevalent than my characterization, I *want* to see it.

- Dan

[Gator]

if Toyota advertised a vehicle that made all kinds of exaggerated claims.. like 300 mpg and it was impossible to die in a car crash in their auto..

It would be considering false advertising and they could be held accountable and at least forced to change their claims to something more realistic.

MOB sites and agencies do the same thing.. that is.. make unreasonable claims..

This gets to the question of fraud.  What is the "unreasonable claim" as you express it?  Is it a material misrepresentation?  Was it reasonable for a man to rely upon the representation?  What were the consequent damages?

The really smart ones like aweb and hrb have enough lawyers on staff to make sure what is written on their sites is extreme enough to let suckers customers fill in the blanks.. but never explicit enough to cross the line.

Some people would consider that clever.

I am of the school that a man should be responsible for taking reasonable precautions.  He should not run around the globe trusting everything he hears.  

[OlgaH]

By dictionaries' definitions scam is:

a dishonest scheme; a fraud
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scam?view=uk

an illegal plan for making money
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/scam

 a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam

I think an agency commits scam (a fraud, a dishonest scheme, deceptive act or operation) when a man signs and pays for the marriage agency services with the purpose of finding a wife (a life partner) but in fact he pays for communicating with the "duck decoys" that don't have any intentions of finding a soulmate (husband, life partner.. ) and more over hired by the agency to swindle the clients. I also believe that every marriage agency especially working with a client's privet information is responsible for its operation and action of people who present themselves through the agency. It is just a slimy business.     

[OlgaH]

It would be considering false advertising and they could be held accountable and at least forced to change their claims to something more realistic.

Sculpto, can you imagine  
 
"Despite sudden unintended acceleration, a mis-synchronism between engine speed and throttle position movement, defects with the vehicles' electronic throttle control system and some other problems that we (or to be more correct YOU) probably will not know until next lawsuits, our cars are not so bad and you can feel safe... in general"

[Sculpto]

lol Olga!

so I have been getting 2-4 of these in my box every day for about 2 months now...

scam or not?  Or perhaps.. attempted scam or not?

usually when i hit reply I get a mailer daemon... this one did not though.. so it will be interesting to see if "diana" replies.  However.. google turns up nothing for diana's email address but http://www.aerofitclub.com/ does exist.. as a place holder.. meaning that aerofitclub is probably no longer a business and the email address is stolen.

 


diana@aerofitclub.com

I'm a romantic woman. My close friends say I am reliable and honest.
I'm 24 years old. I would like to get acquainted with a straightforward man for serious relationship. Where to look for you, my favorite? Contact me! My photos here: http://ybiforema.freewebportal.com/dykosaxy.html

---------------------------

if you hit the link scroll down to the bottom and you can see it is an aweb link..

[OlgaH]

Marriage agency in Odessa "Anastasia" offers a job for women.

Salary - $500
Operating schedule - flexible work hours
Education - doesn't matter
Work Experience - doesn't matter  
Appearance - pleasant
Free professional photo-session.
http://rabota.ria.ua/vacance_1633740.html

Marriage agencies in Nikolaev and Kiev also offer a job for pretty 18-40 y.o women, to know English is not necessary, flexible work hours at home or at office.    
http://job4it.net/vacancy/207163/
http://studentur.com.ua/board/rabota_kiev/devushki_v_brachnoe_agenstvo/3-1-0-8924

[Gylden]

By dictionaries' definitions scam is:

a dishonest scheme; a fraud
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scam?view=uk

an illegal plan for making money
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/scam

 a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam

I think an agency commits scam (a fraud, a dishonest scheme, deceptive act or operation) when a man signs and pays for the marriage agency services with the purpose of finding a wife (a life partner) but in fact he pays for communicating with the "duck decoys" that don't have any intentions of finding a soulmate (husband, life partner.. ) and more over hired by the agency to swindle the clients. I also believe that every marriage agency especially working with a client's privet information is responsible for its operation and action of people who present themselves through the agency. It is just a slimy business.    

Best description yet!! I agree!

[Gator]

if you hit the link scroll down to the bottom and you can see it is an aweb link..

One way to determine if a relationship exists with another agency is to do a search of women's profiles.  I did and the results were not only the same women as with AnasatasiaDate, the banner said: AnastasiaDate.com.  I believe that the search results were skewed to favor the agency's own profiles.

A number of local and large agencies used the Angelika profiles.  However, they used their agency name and not Angelika.

[Gator]

I think an agency commits scam (a fraud, a dishonest scheme, deceptive act or operation) when a man signs and pays for the marriage agency services with the purpose of finding a wife (a life partner) but in fact he pays for communicating with the "duck decoys" that don't have any intentions of finding a soulmate (husband, life partner.. ) and more over hired by the agency to swindle the clients. I also believe that every marriage agency especially working with a client's privet information is responsible for its operation and action of people who present themselves through the agency. It is just a slimy business.     

Yes, it is a scam.  And some RWD members have reported their feelings that they believed this happen.  And one man (I forget his name, the articulate Hispanic from SoCal) reported that his woman later admitted that it was her job.

We do not know the percentage split of the communications between authentic and contrived.  One should be enough to avoid the agency.  End of story.  Is there a need to document the specifis steps to dupe a man into this trap.

[Gator]

There are two types of scams a man could suffer before meeting a RW.  Which is the greater evil?

1.  The fake correspondence in a pay-by-letter or pay-by-webcam scam.  Money is paid to the agency.

2.  The " My darling man, please wire me money for my sick grandmother, travel to meet you, ________."  Money is paid to the woman (or fat Yuri) but not to an agency.

I believe these are two independent operations.  Which scam method generates more money in total?  I would guess the answer is "pay-by-letter."  Although No. 2 (the sick grandmother) scam generates more money per incident, the frequency seems to have declined in recent years.  In fact, Western Union has stopped part of this by refusing to wire money in some cases.

The pay-by-letter scam does not sour every man.  Some men make a trip, and I guess some encounter some professional daters.  That easily could cost more than a pay-by-letter scam. 

Maybe AnaDate is doing gullible men a favor.  They fleece a lot of gullible men and it sours some men so they stop looking for a RW wife.  If they had taken another route they perhaps would have become hooked up with an insincere RW who could have fleeced them over time for tens of thousands.

[Sculpto]

the only ones running Russian bride "my mom fell down the well" scams now are Nigerians.  Now they are a "Russian model" who went to Africa for work and was robbed and got stuck there in Lagos.

There is no way to know what the percentages of sincere versus paid are.  What I can tell you about the Kherson agency is as follows.. its valid because they were "working" HRB, Aweb, AFA, Army, 1st and maybe some others..

some for the girls were paid.. most were simply insincere.  The agency was located upstairs from a pretty nice night club.. convenient location for recruiting.  Before I went there and learned the truth.. I would ask those girls why they were on so late and they would say.. "I was in the night club and came to agency after".  It was just a way to continue the party.

What complicates things further is there some girls that are getting paid who are also open to meeting someone.  And.. there are sincere girls who are so picky no one will ever be good enough.

[SANDRO43]

Now they are a "Russian model" who went to Africa for work and was robbed and got stuck there in Lagos.

Not really new - IIRC, I received one such plea for help 4 years ago .

[Sculpto]

so one thing I am curious about with the experiment..

so lets say someone begins a video correspondence.. what is going to be the metric by which we determine if it is a scam or not?

Here is a "problem"...

1.  A lot of agencies now warn the girls against sexual predators and guarantee their "safety" by convincing them its a bad idea to have contact outside the agency without supervision. 

1a.  is the above a scam?
1b.  If not.. how can we determine if a scam is taking place? ie.. insincere chatting for money..

[ECOCKS]

so one thing I am curious about with the experiment..

so lets say someone begins a video correspondence.. what is going to be the metric by which we determine if it is a scam or not?

If we do it, we need to pick respected, rational people who explain their belief and reasoning behind their evaluation of the girl's sincerity.

Here is a "problem"...

1.  A lot of agencies now warn the girls against sexual predators and guarantee their "safety" by convincing them its a bad idea to have contact outside the agency without supervision. 

1a.  is the above a scam

Not in and of itself. They may be inflating the risk (although I agree they should be wary myself) a bit to achieve "other goals" but as long as they aren't teaching it as a deliberate method to keep the guy on their email system so the girl gets paid for it, then no, not a scam.

1b.  If not.. how can we determine if a scam is taking place? ie.. insincere chatting for money..

See above

[Sculpto]

I believe jooky and one other guy have already been picked. 

"Not in and of itself. They may be inflating the risk (although I agree they should be wary myself) a bit to achieve "other goals" but as long as they aren't teaching it as a deliberate method to keep the guy on their email system so the girl gets paid for it, then no, not a scam."

in my HRB days I ended correspondence once i heard that excuse. 

As to anyone being able to judge the sincerity of a girl in the chat system.. good luck. 

[veritas]

The RW checked boxes such as:  "I am here,"  "I’m online," "Hi nice man," [they obviously have confused me with someone else, maybe newkt ]

Thanks, Gator!  I am indeed the consummate "nice man" ...

Well guess we need to ask who is our sorriest, most pathetic  excuse for a potential FSUW's suitor?

But on the FLIP side -- I guess that would be ME?   (My intro thread explores this in GREAT detail) ...

Problem is, I'm not much of a "dupe" -- and never HAVE been, really ... I only spent, like, $50 on D-M ...

Now, I've only reached page 3 of this 7-page (so far) thread, and I apologize if I'm posting prematurely ....

BUT, I think that AW and D-M are cut from the very same cloth -- perhaps even down to corporate affiliation ...

AND, I'd say that any attempts by either one to convince a 46-year-old guy (me) that HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS
of 18-to-25-year-old SmokinHotKova's are TRULY in desperate love -- or passionate lust -- with him (me) are pretty
much leading up to a SCAM, even if money hasn't YET changed hands ... (Not sure if this addressed the OP's question) ...

Kevin

[veritas]

Are you a Puritan?

Please give me an example of such.  Kevin the Newkt received some sexually explicit leetrs, but those were from a woman, not the agency.

Says WHO??  I personally believe that ALL of the THOUSANDS of "instant love/lust/sex" letters that I received --
from HUNDREDS of those 18-to-25-year-old SmokinHotKova's -- were coming from paid writers at the AGENCY --
and NOT from any of the women in the photos ...

Kevin

P.S.  BTW, Gator, I rather like that "Kevin the Newkt" title -- has a certain ring to it ...

[veritas]

Definition of a "scam" seems a core issue. Some are willing to declare 'scam' when they see elements emerging they recognize as likely to lead to a scam. Others are more legalistic and hold firmly to the notion that a 'scam' does not occur until a loss of something of value has occurred. Neither is necessarily more correct than the other, but as a reference point for determining scamming behaviors, a firm definition needs to be established.

I can't help but think that individual risk tolerance plays a role in a person's declaration of a scam. One of the most hardy risk-takers at RWD is AJ. Look at his reactions and thoughts from the perspective of one who makes a living taking daily risks. Gator as well, a highly successful (now retired) business owner who took measured risks routinely - offers insight into how those who are LESS risk-averse respond to the attractions and events.

OTOH - we have the jaded. Those who have been burned or are clearly on the risk averse side of the ledger. It seems like Sculpto and ECOCKS are both among the jaded, though with different 'takes' on the forward path - and Steamer and SANDRO43 appear to be sufficiently risk averse that they declare scam upon seeing a likely scam pattern emerging.

Count me among the "jaded", too ... I wouldn't believe a single thing that I "saw" from these hot YOUNG women --
on ANY site, including Elena's Models (which, BTW, I never DID see such on) ...

I never really got "burned" on D-M ... Right from the start, I knew better than to pay to engage in "chat", "video chat",
"introductory videos", and the like ... My $50-$80 on D-M was spent writing a few LETTERS to what seemed at the time
like "reasonable" RW for a middle-aged guy like me to correspond with ... And probably more than half of THAT was spent
asking them what I called "The Question" -- why there would be so many hot YOUNG women writing to ME, and what they
thought of the evidence I'd seen that D-M was one big SCAM ... So I really didn't buy into it all from the beginning -- but
I DID spend some money writing those things to "ghosts" -- and I got a few interesting responses (all denying a scam) ...

Kevin

[veritas]

BTW, the REST of that money -- including the extra $10/month to send 10 "free introductory letters" (somewhat
of a misnomer, because I used them all to RESPOND to letters "written" to me ... I never did write anyone FIRST) ...

Anyway, the REST of that money was used to have some "fun" with the multiple "sex-fantasy" letters I received ...
I devised my own PG-13 "sex-fantasy form letter", which I used to respond to those letters and SEE the reaction ...

Kevin

P.S.  Case in point: One girl wrote back "WOW, WOW, WOW ... I read your letter THREE times" -- and much more ...

[Gator]

I personally believe that ALL of the THOUSANDS of "instant love/lust/sex" letters that I received --
from HUNDREDS of those 18-to-25-year-old SmokinHotKova's -- were coming from paid writers at the AGENCY --
and NOT from any of the women in the photos ...

You are probably correct.  What can you prove, however?  

Each paid writer probably has several canned letters for each woman that they shuffle around among the many men who sign up.   Nevertheless, the letters were not signed by the agency.

The $50-80 you spent is virtually nothing.  And it could be argued that you received that much value in soft porn and titillation.  It shows that to make money AW must get a high number of men to take the bait.

[veritas]

You are probably correct.  What can you prove, however?  

Each paid writer probably has several canned letters for each woman that they shuffle around among the many men who sign up.   Nevertheless, the letters were not signed by the agency.

The $50-80 you spent is virtually nothing.  And it could be argued that you received that much value in soft porn and titillation.  It shows that to make money AW must get a high number of men to take the bait.

I can't prove a blessed thing, Gator -- and I know that $50-$80 in this "game" is "virtually nothing" ...
And I probably DID receive "that much value in soft porn and titillation" -- but I'm still calling it a SCAM ...

Kevin

[veritas]

If the agency sells to you, contact with FSUW, and in your mind you expect to be dating and marry the women but do not. Who is at fault? The agency because you didn't or you for conjuring up fantasies (that they fostered in you to believe)? When Mr. Merchant sells you contact with FSUW and you have in fact have "said" contact. Their obligation is filled. The fact that you choose to buy more credits for more communication with a fantasy girl does not IMHO constitute a scam.

By "fantasy girl", do you mean "dream girl" -- ala "Dream-Marriage" -- or do you mean "IMAGINARY girl" -- as in,
the girl in the photos AIN'T the one WRITING you?  Are you really getting the "said" contact that you PAID for?

Kevin

P.S.  Sorry for arriving so late at this thread -- and therefore "bunching up" all my responses ...

[veritas]

It's clear to me that the first contacts I received are not from real women with intentions of learning more about the man presented in my blank profile. Most likely these are not contacts from the women in the photos at all.

Completely agree, and I think it's exactly the same with Dream-Marriage ...

Kevin