Trip Reports General Discussion and Poll

[Daveman]

Man Looking brings uo a good point... I'd like to hear your views.

ECR844, I understand completely your reasoning.

However, your attempted procedure flies in the  face of all logic about how people act in the real world.

For your procedure to work: i.e. You post your entire story and then people comment; you would have to post it all at once.

When you post just some of it with several days, or even just several hours of lag time, normal people cannot wait . . . they must comment.  You would do the same if the situation were reversed.

I know that the decisions about TRs (to post or not) are hard to make.

I read and saw the almost futility of trying to avoid getting the silly responses, so I decided to not tell much in my trip  report.  As a result, my TR died on the vine, even though at first some praised me for writing an 'honorable' or some such TR.

It seems there might be a viable middle ground for those who want the chance to write their TR without interruption; and then get some comments.

This middle ground would call for writing (at your own speed as time permits) the TR in the No Comments section.  Then, when the report is finished, reposting it in its entirety here for others to comment on.

This could be a viable future option.. maybe... it takes like 10 seconds or less for a mod to move the thread from one section to another. 


The posting of this Poll does not mean that this will be enacted, but rather this is an area for the pros and cons to be discussed.
Dave

[ECOCKS]

Wow, I just suggested that to Robert in the chatroom.

(18:20:52) LEGAL: I don't think any TR should be interrupted until it is finished out of respect
(18:20:59) ECOCKS: Well, I think he made mistakes but he doesn't seem to be whining about it so kudos to him.
(18:21:01) LEGAL: for the op
(18:21:37) ECOCKS: Well, he could have posted the TR in the no replies section then opened a thread for discussion afterward.

Test, test, 1 - 2 - 3, test, test......

As Manlooking points out the TR's which have days and weeks between updates lose their cohesion quickly and become too sporadic to wait for the next installment.

So I see both ECR's, SMS's and ML's points.

Putting in a process of posting the TR then moving it to a write-enabled thread seems a good answer to this problem.

[Gator]

Three examples:

Mars - Mars started a WMVM TR that could have gone for pages.  People were critical of him early (he had discussed only 3 or so women of about 20 meetings planned).  And contrary to Mars' usual MO, he had not yet discussed sex, just teeth.  Although we all knew the sex was coming someday as he narrowed the women to a few or possibly one or none. 

Mars tried to silence the naysayers without belaboring the point. He gave up as he did not like the distractions. This is his final post.

As I suspected and wrote about months earlier; a WMVM trip report simply will not be permitted here.

OK, as you wish.

Pike - Pike wrote a spicy TR in the "sans response" section.   Because they could not comment in the TR, one reader started a parallel shadow report and their many members voiced their opinions.  Some readers considered it as sex tourism; others saw it as a man dating many women in their 40s and attending to their needs.  Whatever, Pike was not interested in marriage.  Pike ignored them.

TwoBitBandit - TBB wrote a real time report during his trip.  Many readers commented about his dating methods.  TBB addressed them directly without getting distracted.  Somehow he managed to complete his report.  It takes a well balanced, intelligent and energetic man to do that.


What do I propose?  My feeling is that if something is unclear, it is best to ask a question or two at that time and not wait.  A reader should be allowed to  make a critical comment provided it is brief and not a rehash of old debates (e. g., the merits of WMVM vs WOVO).  The writer can ignore the critical comment or respond,  and that should be it - no debate.  Debate can wait until the end.

Somehow a reader must ask a question or comment without derailing the T/R.  If he is not capable of that, he should bite his tongue until the end. And the moderator should jump in if he can not bite his tongue.

[SMS60]

Manlooking's idea is good. Actually it would not require a moderator to move it. As ML said the poster could copy and paste to the response section after it is completed. But as we all know this would not be used. There is something more going on here than we like to admit. Lots of it is done to provoke reactions. But thats my opinion.




"As I suspected and wrote about months earlier; a WMVM trip report simply will not be permitted here.

OK, as you wish."


Gator,as you know what Mars stated is completely false. A WMVM is permitted. Of course he came to this conclusion and left because in his mind its not permitted since not everyone agrees with him.

[ECOCKS]

Manlooking's idea is good. Actually it would not require a moderator to move it. As ML said the poster could copy and paste to the response section after it is completed. But as we all know this would not be used. There is something more going on here than we like to admit. Lots of it is done to provoke reactions. But thats my opinion.

Actually some of these multi-page TR's would be difficult to cut and paste. I favor the mod involvement. What's the worst that could happen? Maybe enough good TR's would emerge that you'd need a second mod to help with the chore of moving them? Not a bad problem for the board.

[vwrw]

If I were a person who wants to write TR without interruption, I would do it in the word document.  Then, I would publish it in installments. I would use the intervals between the installments to answer the responses to my TR.  Since I myself never read the TRs which either are long and published at once or are posted in "sans response" section (unless the poster is one of my favorites or TR has caused a controversy), I would not publish my TR at once or in "sans response" section.  So, from the perceptive of a writer, I am satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

From perspective of a reader, responses between installations do not bother me at all. In fact, I often find the comments on the TR to be more interesting than the TR itself.  If I want to read only the TR, I would just skip all the responses and read only the posts of the TR’s writer. So, from the perceptive of a reader, I am also satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

[ECOCKS]

If I were a person who wants to write TR without interruption, I would do it in the word document.  Then, I would publish it in installments. I would use the intervals between the installments to answer the responses to my TR.  Since I myself never read the TRs which either are long and published at once or are posted in "sans response" section (unless the poster is one of my favorites or TR has caused a controversy), I would not publish my TR at once or in "sans response" section.  So, from the perceptive of a writer, I am satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

From perspective of a reader, responses between installations do not bother me at all. In fact, I often find the comments on the TR to be more interesting than the TR itself.  If I want to read only the TR, I would just skip all the responses and read only the posts of the TR’s writer. So, from the perceptive of a reader, I am also satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

Everyone has their own style. There was a way to do this to achieve the OP's stated objectives but it wasn't utilized.

People are people.

[Ade]

Somehow a reader must ask a question or comment without derailing the T/R.  If he is not capable of that, he should bite his tongue until the end. And the moderator should jump in if he can not bite his tongue.

Unfortunately, what a lot of people tend to want out of their TRs is validation for the choices they make during their trips; as long as those are the only interruptions they get they are quite happy. It seems to me that it's only when people are critical of them that they get upset and it's the hoped for validation posts that stroke their egos which keeps them from posting in the sans response section.

I mean, come on, if people didn't want others to post in the middle of their TR there are 2 pretty obvious solutions that have already been mentioned.

[TwoBitBandit]

TwoBitBandit - TBB wrote a real time report during his trip.  Many readers commented about his dating methods.  TBB addressed them directly without getting distracted.  Somehow he managed to complete his report.  It takes a well balanced, intelligent and energetic man to do that.

My opinion about it is this: people take everything way too personally.  A stand-up guy has to have a direction and goal in his life.  This applies to everything: career, investing, women, whatever.  If he is too sensitive to criticism around him he'll never accomplish anything in life.  It reminds me of this story I heard once...

The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey

A man and his son were once going with their donkey to market. As they were walking along by his side a countryman passed them and said, "You fools, what is a donkey for but to ride upon?" So the man put the boy on the donkey, and they went on their way. 
But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said, "See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides."

So the man ordered his boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn't gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other, "Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along."

Well, the man didn't know what to do, but at last he took his boy up before him on the donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passersby began to jeer and point at them. The man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at.

The men said, "Aren't you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor donkey of yours -- you and your hulking son?"

The man and boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, until at last they cut down a pole, tied the donkey's feet to it, and raised the pole and the donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them until they came to a bridge, when the donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the donkey fell over the bridge, and his forefeet being tied together, he was drowned.

There's a lot of criticism in the world that is intended to be honestly helpful.  The most useful thing to do is to try to determine the intent and qualification of the person giving the criticism. 

I made an effort to respond to posts that asked an honest question or made an effort to be constructive. 

There are a number of trolls on these boards who just want to throw mud by making unmeritorious straw-man and ad hominem attacks.  I think that the worst thing you can do with this kind of detractor is to acknowledge them.  In doing so, you’re stepping into their frame and acknowledging that their point is valid.  If their point is so off-base, then why bother acknowledging it?  Just let it go and let them talk to themselves.

Of course, that’s easier said than done.  I made a real effort to bite my tongue during that TR.  I reminded myself of the advice I receive when I was a child trying to hit a baseball: keep your eye on the ball.  And so I did that: staying focused on my trip and on the girls rather than on spending hours beating every dead-horse argument into the ground over the internet.

Certainly, there’s lots of way to be successful at the hunt.  VO and VM can both work and I’m certainly not trying to hold up my method as if were The Bible.  I tried VO on my first trip, and it was a heart-wrenching experience for both myself and the girl.  I’m not trying to take a holier-than-thou stance with anyone else on these boards, because I’m not holier than anyone else.  I just decided to write about what I did, with the intent of helping others on these boards who may walk in my footsteps and learn something from my trip report.

[Gator]

Unfortunately, what a lot of people tend to want out of their TRs is validation for the choices they make during their trips; as long as those are the only interruptions they get they are quite happy.

Are you a psychologist who knows what an individual wants based on a few posts?

It seems to me that it's only when people are critical of them that they get upset...

Some people are unable to express a comment in a productive much less diplomatic manner.  Instead it can come off as a condemnation.  To make it worse, their timing is bad and sometimes it seems personal.   Writing in a constructive style is either beyond their intellectual capacity, or they choose to be a thorn simply because they have a jaded, dismal and disagreeable disposition.   I believe it is the latter if the person has rarely expressed anything positive about anything.

If a T/R author is not familiar with RWF personalites, he will not know those who have a black cloud over their heads, and he could become agitated.  Nevertheless, a big boy will keep writing (keep his eye on the ball as TBB stated).

...and it's the hoped for validation posts that stroke their egos which keeps them from posting in the sans response section.

 

Impressive!  Not only can you read a person's mind, you can identify if he has a psychosis. 

Maybe some people write reports because they feel that they have something interesting to share.  Sans report is not interesting.  It is a lecture.  And I doubt if any RWD members are sufficiently talented to be on the lecture circuit.   

I mean, come on, if people didn't want others to post in the middle of their TR there are 2 pretty obvious solutions that have already been mentioned.

And there are less structured solutions that depend upon the civility of those who wish to ask a question or suggest an alternative.

[Gator]

VWRW,

Excellent suggestion.  It is very productive and still allows people to obtain clarification or to beat their drum.

[Boethius]

Are you a psychologist who knows what an individual wants based on a few posts?

I don't think one has to be a psychologist to understand human nature.
 

Some people are unable to express a comment in a productive much less diplomatic manner.  Instead it can come off as a condemnation.  To make it worse, their timing is bad and sometimes it seems personal.   Writing in a constructive style is either beyond their intellectual capacity, or they choose to be a thorn simply because they have a jaded, dismal and disagreeable disposition.   I believe it is the latter if the person has rarely expressed anything positive about anything.

If a T/R author is not familiar with RWF personalites, he will not know those who have a black cloud over their heads, and he could become agitated.  Nevertheless, a big boy will keep writing (keep his eye on the ball as TBB stated).

Irony.  In one sentence, you condemn others as amateur psychologists, yet make the same sweeping generalization a few sentences later.  

What is "constructive" is in the eye of the beholder.  But I'll agree.  Many men here would rather read sweet lies.  I think many (there are exceptions - you know who you are) aren't even honest with themselves.

  

[tim 360]

...If I were a person who wants to write TR without interruption, I would do it in the word document.  Then, I would publish it in installments. I would use the intervals between the installments to answer the responses to my TR....   So, from the perceptive of a writer, I am satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

From perspective of a reader, responses between installations do not bother me at all. In fact, I often find the comments on the TR to be more interesting than the TR itself.  If I want to read only the TR, I would just skip all the responses and read only the posts of the TR’s writer. So, from the perceptive of a reader, I am also satisfied with the options currently provided in the TR section.

EXCELLENT!

But I could see where some might prefer composing ins "sans response" and then after writing "The End" the report could be moved by mod and responses could begin.

[JR]

Good Idea DM)))

When reading a T/R I usually skip the responses and just read the OPs. Then if I'm still interested I'll get into the rest of it.

[vwrw]

Gator and Tim, thank you for your praise.

Tim, could you please mention in what situation one might prefer composing TR in "sans response" over composing it in word document?


I do not like the idea of allowing one to compose his TR in "sans response" and then after "The End" moving the report to the usual section for two reasons.
     
1) People do not like delay gratification of their needs and desires. This means that if the TR in "sans response" touches a member’s nerve, a separate threat discussing the TR will be open and dispelling of myths and correction of distorted info that the TR conveys will occur in separate threat rather than in the TR itself after it is finished. I do not think many members will care to move their responses to the TR when allowed. Thus, TR and comments would be in different places. Don’t you think that refutations of myths should be in the same place where the myths are?

2) In the usual TR section, if a reader sees a statement s/he wants to comment on, s/he quotes the text and makes a comment. I do not think people reading a TR in "sans response" are going to make notes what they are going to comment on when allowed. As a result, they will forget what they wanted to say. Thus, much info which otherwise might be refuted or supported will remain uncorrected or unsupported.

[tim 360]

Gator and Tim, thank you for your praise.

Tim, could you please mention in what situation one might prefer composing TR in "sans response" over composing it in word document?


I do not like the idea of allowing one to compose his TR in "sans response" and then after "The End" moving the report to the usual section for two reasons.
     
1) People do not like delay gratification of their needs and desires. This means that if the TR in "sans response" touches a member’s nerve, a separate threat discussing the TR will be open and dispelling of myths and correction of distorted info that the TR conveys will occur in separate threat rather than in the TR itself after it is finished. I do not think many members will care to move their responses to the TR when allowed. Thus, TR and comments would be in different places. Don’t you think that refutations of myths should be in the same place where the myths are?

2) In the usual TR section, if a reader sees a statement s/he wants to comment on, s/he quotes the text and makes a comment. I do not think people reading a TR in "sans response" are going to make notes what they are going to comment on when allowed. As a result, they will forget what they wanted to say. Thus, much info which otherwise might be refuted or supported will remain uncorrected or unsupported.

"Tim, could you please mention in what situation one might prefer composing TR in "sans response" over composing it in word document?"

If some trip poster did not want any responses to his trip report.  Usually trip reports come in piecemeal (many segments) over a few/many days spread--whether they use WORD or "sans".  However "sans" may make some trip posters feel more secure that their report will not be interrupted by question or opinions.  Not my favorite flavor...but for some it might work.

1 & 2?  I usually only read what the trip OP writes, and skip the rest, but if it starts getting too strange I will look at various comments by others.  In ECR's case his lavish gifts seemed off to me.  OTOH, if his gifts were much more modest I am sure a few here would accuse him of being stingy (greedy)--so Vwrw...you just can't please all of the people all of the time. 

Now personally, I find the "sans" route a very weak route to take, like someone who wants his wisdom unquestioned and some ( like Pike) will opt for it, although it greatly dilutes the the whole value of a trip report.  Opening a seperate thread to discuss a "sans" seems counter-productive also.

I agree with you on 1 & 2 but there are some who are not eager to have responses or rather--responses non-congruent with what they want to hear.

[viking]

I disagree with having comments made before the OP has finished. One does not really know, nor may understand, the full picture until the end.

A TR is a story. And like any other story one may read or listen to, disrupting the progress tends to make the OP, the story teller if you will, either disengage or otherwise become side tracked. And I for one would want to hear the whole story before making a comment. Or a behavioral decision.

Some TR’s are short, perhaps a small post of two. While some OP’s have the ability to retell their tales, adventures and maybe misadventures in great detail and with a wonderful writing style.

As a reader, do you really want to dissect ever paragraph? Why is there a need to interject yourself at these junctures? Maybe you can see the red flags coming. Or, if good fortune may strike, the feeling that this will really work. Even if we put ourselves into his shoes, you cannot begin to think that you know everything that is happening in someone else’s mind. At least not until the end. And then only a maybe.

Did the whole trip end up as a total wreck or was there some saving grace? Did the Op defend his position? Did the OP learn anything? Did the OP end his report with some type of self criticism that allows us an insight to his learning experience and therefore our comments might take a different approach? Maybe the comments might shift from taking a swing with the clue bat to being supportive? Or vice-versa?

I have nothing against comments and the ensuing lively debates that can develop.
But I want to hear the whole story before making a judgment call.

So…if someone wants to take their time to tell about an adventure and wishes to finish before posting it for the inevitable, why not? Patience is a virtue you know.

[vwrw]

I understand that it may take time (days, weeks) to compose a TR.  I understand that some people do not want to be interrupted during the composition.  What I do not understand is why it is so important for those people to write and save pieces of their TR on forum instead of finishing their TR within a word document and only then publishing it on the forum?

[SMS60]

What I do not understand is why it is so important for those people to write and save pieces of their TR on forum instead of finishing their TR within a word document and only then publishing it on the forum?

Because its not about the actual TR. The TR is the tool to stimulate the senses of the readers and writers. The tool would not be of use if it was locked up.

[Gator]

I don't think one has to be a psychologist to understand human nature.

Your statement more than suggests that you agree with SeriouslyJaded.  ecr844's T/R precipitated this poll, with SJ's criticism taking center stage, so I assume SJ and you are discussing ecr844’s T/R.  By agreeing with SJ, you indirectly just wrote that ecr844 expected encouragement and  admiration. 

Do you really think ecr844 expected attaboys for what happened during his trip?   He is a risk taker.  He has a dangerous hobby.  He has confidence.   And SeriouslyJaded implies ecr can be happy only if he receives cheers and no jeers.

ecr844's writing has a sense of sarcasm about his Bela woman’s absurd behavior towards him.  Early in his T/R ecr wrote,  “My mistake is not listening to my gut, and certainly not listening to my instincts.”   Does this sound like someone eliciting attaboys?  Suggesting his approach is the model to follow?

I assert that SeriouslyJaded does not know what ecr or TBB or Pike or Mars wanted out of their trip reports.  SJ is an intelligent man, and as such he should recognize that  he was stating the obvious in ecr's thread.  Frequently I wonder if SJ is one of those who just enjoys jerking a person’s chain to see how high they jump.  If so, I crown him RWD’s Gadfly. 

ecr844's T/R is a good read.  Besides the usual FSU travelogue, he describes life in Belarus.  Of most interest to a newbie is the trap ecr fell into with the Bela woman.  Why annoy the man?

I find it odd that you side with SJ.

[Gator]

Irony.  In one sentence, you condemn others as amateur psychologists, yet make the same sweeping generalization a few sentences later.

 

"Same sweeping generalization?"   Same?  That would mean that somewhere I wrote that I know what people are thinking.  I have many faults but this is not one of them.

Are you certain that you connected the dots correctly?  You seem to have some kneejerk bias against whatever I write, to the point that you assume the worse interpretation.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Boethius]

I didn't read ecr's trip report, so I can't really comment on it.  I was responding to the post as a whole, rather than "siding" with one poster or another.

You seem to have some kneejerk bias against whatever I write, to the point that you assume the worse interpretation.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I'm sorry you see it that way, as I don't have a bias against you, or, for that matter, anyone else on this forum, and I honestly do wish everyone the best outcome.  In many cases, that likely isn't the outcome they are seeking.  I don't tend to respond to posts when I agree. 

We may often have disparate views on what constitutes happiness, or how to get there, but I do respect your views, even when I disagree with you.

[GQBlues]

I voted 'aye' though not sure why a poll had to be taken. If this is already an option for anyone/everyone, then why is there even a need for polling?

IMO a poll does nothing more than complicate what is already a very simple system. All the author need to do is drop the moderator a PM to make the transfer when he feels his reporting is done.

[Ade]

Are you a psychologist who knows what an individual wants based on a few posts?
 

Some people are unable to express a comment in a productive much less diplomatic manner.  Instead it can come off as a condemnation.  To make it worse, their timing is bad and sometimes it seems personal.   Writing in a constructive style is either beyond their intellectual capacity, or they choose to be a thorn simply because they have a jaded, dismal and disagreeable disposition.   I believe it is the latter if the person has rarely expressed anything positive about anything.

If a T/R author is not familiar with RWF personalites, he will not know those who have a black cloud over their heads, and he could become agitated.  Nevertheless, a big boy will keep writing (keep his eye on the ball as TBB stated).
 

Impressive!  Not only can you read a person's mind, you can identify if he has a psychosis. 

Maybe some people write reports because they feel that they have something interesting to share.  Sans report is not interesting.  It is a lecture.  And I doubt if any RWD members are sufficiently talented to be on the lecture circuit.   

And there are less structured solutions that depend upon the civility of those who wish to ask a question or suggest an alternative.

Gator, you obviously see things in me from my posts which just aren't there. My disposition is in fact very far from jaded, dismal and disagreeable, although the latter is a possible depending on the context. In the flesh I'm generally a positive, upbeat kind of guy but I guess that doesn't translate well in my posts; perhaps that's because of the threads I tend to post in, threads which usually are a little emotive to begin with and which I have strong opinions about.

And yes, I'm no psychologist although it has been a hobby of mine so I've read a little and I'm an avid people watcher, so I'd say I've developed a fairly good appreciation of human nature. When I said "a lot" of people, I didn't mean all people have a validation complex but you know that as much as I think you know that there are very obvious reasons why a lot of people post TRs under the guise of "helping the newbie" and those reasons have more to do with validation and ego than anything else.

When it comes to ECR's TR. I'm not psychic so I can't really be sure why he posted it. But IMO it was a huge crash and burn that was surprising in it's scope from someone that's relatively experienced; even if he pulled it together in the latter part of the trip, which we still don't know, his initial mistakes need to be critically examined if they are going to be of any use to the clueless newbies which it was supposed to be helping.

One of the reasons I was so blunt was that I've read some of his justifications over on the other board for things like the extravagant gifts he gave and I'm sorry, but his reasoning is flawed big time there. Now, I know people make mistakes and that's fine, I've made a few myself over the years. What peeves me though is the TRs that are supposed to be helping newbies that are obvious failures and yet lack little or no self criticism or objective reflection or, in the worse cases, contain denials and justifications; yes, in ECRs report the reflections may come later, but it's been 2 months and...? Should we wait forever before pointing out the obvious? And remember, what is obvious to some (the extreme gift giving) may not be to newcomers, and without criticism those newcomers may thing that it's not only perfectly normal but a mandatory requirement in the FSU to, for instance, give out lots of extravagant gifts to the family when you meet them for the first time.

[Gator]

One of the reasons I was so blunt was that I've read some of his justifications over on the other board for things like the extravagant gifts he gave and I'm sorry, but his reasoning is flawed big time there.

I did not read the other board so I concede you have the advantage of more information.  This has influenced your response here.

What peeves me though is the TRs that are supposed to be helping newbies that are obvious failures and yet lack little or no self criticism or objective reflection or, in the worse cases, contain denials and justifications; yes, in ECRs report the reflections may come later, but it's been 2 months and...?

You and I are in agreement.  That peeves me too.  In this case I  don't see that ecr was looking for validation.  The mistakes seemed blatantly obvious (her line tops the list of RW absurdity - "no physical contact until I visit you on a fiancee visa and only then if I like you and you agree to move to Florida").  Maybe she is a virgin.

Should we wait forever before pointing out the obvious?

No, but could you not write your response as if you were talking with a friend?

And remember, what is obvious to some (the extreme gift giving) may not be to newcomers, and without criticism those newcomers may thing that it's not only perfectly normal but a mandatory requirement in the FSU to, for instance, give out lots of extravagant gifts to the family when you meet them for the first time.

Did ecr disclose in the other forum the total cost of the gifts?  They could be extravagant.   I agree that it is dead wrong to spoil a RW at the beginning.  She will expect more and more. 

Have a nice day.  The Gadfly crown is back on the shelf.