Trip Reports General Discussion and Poll

[Jumper]

 

all fine points that i generally agree with,,
but none that are relevant, or make any excuse for members to methodically derail trip reports in a pattern  that caused this thread to even exist.

The "need" of many members to extrapolate the details of any TR..to fit some view point or "teach" their commandments of  *what not to do*, seems to have  grown into a problem that is appropriate to address, hence the thread.

The ultimate irony is the responses here yet AGAIN drift invariably to any given TR

bravo..

::::golf clap all around::::::::::::::::::::::::::


Is it really that difficult to let any given story unfold?
commenting is one thing ,
derailing it is another.

I believe ALL here know the difference.
and some are simply defending some perceived  "right" to behave less charitably, and say whatever they feel ,regardless if it disrupts a TR or not.

I don't buy it.

If your "need" to be "right" is so great ,and you  can't express your views in a way that doesn't let the TR thread flow naturally to more installments..frankly it's ridiculous ,and  I think the posters of such comments know full well what they are doing.

The options are to post the TR in its entirety first, ,or to post in sans responses.

This thread was started to explore  another alternative , a hybrid ?

the fact there is even ANY negative reaction to it ,
 speaks volumes from those who are basically simply defending their right to disrupt.


Let's have some reasons why it would make any of the *defenders of the status quo* ,
any difference if a mod moved a sans response thread in its entirety into the regular area of
trip reports?


because they just can't wait to tear into the mistakes and display their  superior  knowledge and actions ?

because *TR authors* should simply write their entire trip report in WORD , first and copy paste it?
(this one makes sense,
but some like to post in real time while on a trip for whatever reason, maybe because it is fresh
in their minds)

because *TR authors*  should have thick enough skin to deal with any comments, and particularly the oft crazy extrapolations posters come up with,and handle folks who just have to have the last word.. even if they were not there and do not know the entire story?

any more?

are any of those points a valid reason to not have the *option*?

 

[viking]

Most of my guys spend somewhere in between $700 and $1500 on that. It is very important to know that this kind of gift is ONLY appropriate if you developed a real relationship with your girl and you both are planning to take this relationship to the next level.

Maybe I got off cheap but this still sounds like a lot of money. My wife accepted an engagement gift which was an old ring with a semi-precious stone along with a very small diamond that I had converted into a necklace.Cost to me about $150. I forget the orginal price of the ring but it was a long time ago and not expensive at all.  Her wedding band, which she picked out herself, cost me $78 in Belarus and I couldnt get her to spend a dollar more, and I tried.

Even at home, I would not spend a grand unless I knew it was a done deal. Not just "the next level". Whatever that may mean. Sometimes more meaningful gifts go a lot further than expensive.IMHO.

[Eduard]

Laz if dont mind I would like to throw in my opinion.

I dont think its so much a VM or VO or comparing how you date at home versus away from home. I see it as a woman is a woman.

In most of my post I always use the terms....lady, girl, woman, women, or female. I very seldom use the terms RW, UW, FSUW. If you are having trouble dating at home you will have the same problems in another country. They might show up at different time intervals.

Example, Their is a new forum member, Kevin, who seems upbeat and positive. He has revealed some of his issues and problems in his posts. But appears to have alot going for him. One revelation is lots of women look at him as a friend. Not to go into the gory details, but you can sense something about this in his posts which he doesn't see.

Long story short, He will have this same problem in the international dating world. The women after a short period of time will look at him as a freind not a lover.

Its all about the person you are looking at in the mirror. When you have him fine tuned it doesn't matter where or how you date.

I agree with this but to a degree. RW seem to be a lot more accepting of men who wouldn't have a chance with AW. There are plenty of couples in Russia and Ukraine that would seem totally missmatched here in the US, where the guy looks totally dorky, like a nurd and the girl with him is hot! And on top of that she is about 8 inches taller than him... In the US guys like that are lucky to date a 300 pound unattractived BBW let alone a model quality smokinghotkova that any WM would go bananas over!
Now please don't take this post as a recommendation to look for a RW way above yourself in the looks department. This is simply a statement and an observation.
My male ego goes up tremendously every time I make a trip to the FSU, simply because here in the US I don't get the same flirty looks, interested stares and sometimes outright pick up lines from women the way I do in the FSU.
The dynamics of relationships are changing in the FSU. Many women feel like in order to attract a male they must have a good job, a car and a nice apartment. They feel that in order to compete they have to offer a "lifestyle" to a Russian male. And Russian males take full advantage of the situation...

[ECOCKS]

Most of my guys spend somewhere in between $700 and $1500 on that. It is very important to know that this kind of gift is ONLY appropriate if you developed a real relationship with your girl and you both are planning to take this relationship to the next level.

Maybe I got off cheap but this still sounds like a lot of money. My wife accepted an engagement gift which was an old ring with a semi-precious stone along with a very small diamond that I had converted into a necklace.Cost to me about $150. I forget the orginal price of the ring but it was a long time ago and not expensive at all.  Her wedding band, which she picked out herself, cost me $78 in Belarus and I couldn't get her to spend a dollar more, and I tried.

Even at home, I would not spend a grand unless I knew it was a done deal. Not just "the next level". Whatever that may mean. Sometimes more meaningful gifts go a lot further than expensive.IMHO.

I am not in favor of the gifts, even flowers. I was determined that the woman I was dating had to regard the point of the date as spending time with me, not figuring out what I spent as a score-keeping, retention signal.

During our dating my standard was to be carrying a cup of espresso and (usually) a Banana-Walnut or Chocolate muffin from McD's on Kreshatyk. The times we would meet at restaurants or coffeehouses it was understood that an SMS giving me 5-10 minutes notice would mean a fresh espresso would be waiting on the table when she arrived. Think she got flowers maybe 3 times so far in 4+ years.

The first time meeting Mama I took a medium sized tort (medavik I think) and a bottle of table-grade wine for the three of us. Another time I took two different types of ice cream she liked. I lived behind the top fish market in Kyiv and sent Mama home another time with a bit over a kilo of pangasius to be sure they were upgrading their (babushka and step-son) diet at home. For Christmas I gave my BIL's $5 mini multi-tools and tri-fold wallets (from Walmart) with retention chains for the belt. They were delighted as best I can tell from the way they switched from their regular wallets to the new ones on the spot. Think the biggest gift I ever got babushka was a winter-weight coat a couple of years ago which was roughly $120. My step-son gets birthday gifts which are pretty standard maybe $100 in clothes from medium-level stores like Junkers and such.

As regards the ring, I spent almost $2K on hers. She rarely wore it except when we went out for dressed-up events at the Embassy or parties at holiday times.

My feeling was that the extravagant gifts increased the potential of "buying" my way into the relationship and also would be setting some sort of expectation that she would continue receiving them indefinitely. It's a relationship, not training your puppy not to piddle on the carpets....

Everyone has their own standards and expectations.

[Jooky]

all fine points that i generally agree with,,
but none that are relevant, or make any excuse for members to methodically derail trip reports in a pattern  that caused this thread to even exist.

Well said! I agree.

The criticisms made about the trip are valid and I agree with most of them, but they all could have waited until the trip report was done, as requested.

[Misha]

Maybe I got off cheap but this still sounds like a lot of money. My wife accepted an engagement gift which was an old ring with a semi-precious stone along with a very small diamond that I had converted into a necklace.Cost to me about $150.

Your experience mirrors mine. I gave my wife a ring worth a couple of hundred dollars two months after we met. I bought flowers a few times. We did not go to any expensive restaurants. She never took me on shopping trips. I never bought her any clothes until we got married and she had her own computer.

[Misha]

On topic, isn't there a blog function here? If somebody wants to write a trip report with no replies, wouldn't it make more sense to create a blog?

[Jooky]

If somebody wants to write a trip report with no replies, wouldn't it make more sense to create a blog?

Nobody reads the blogs. 

Anyways, Eric didn't ask for no replies, he just asked for the 'peanut gallery' posters to let him finish his story before the inevitable derailment.

[Misha]

Nobody reads the blogs. 

And, perhaps there is a reason for it  :evil: Deep down, I wager, most people read trip reports faithfully from start to finish only when they generate a lot of discussion, most of it unwanted by the OP 

[SMS60]

Nobody reads the blogs. 

Anyways, Eric didn't ask for no replies, he just asked for the 'peanut gallery' posters to let him finish his story before the inevitable derailment.

First we need to name the "peanut gallery" members. So we know who cant post. ( hopfully I'm one of them). It would be an honor. I would wear my cashew proudly.

Also, The only one who can derail a TR is the writer. He has all the control. Perfect example was the TBB trip report. It was handled by him in a stand up kind of way. When the writer allows it to become personel his thin skin shows. And then he feeds the replys to repair his damaged feelings and the cycle starts and never ends.

Again the author is in complete control of this process. He can be like TBB or a big cry baby.

[Lazarus]

Anyways, Eric didn't ask for no replies, he just asked for the 'peanut gallery' posters to let him finish his story before the inevitable derailment.

Sorry Jooky, but I completely disagree with your statement!

I politely asked that no comments be made in this TR until I finished for a single simple reason.

To me, no comments means........ no comments be made in this TR until I finish?
Keyword: "in"


Laz

[Lazarus]

Again the author is in complete control of this process. He can be like TBB or a big cry baby.

I agree with this assessment!
The OP tried to control the TR, when that failed and this thread started he came over here yesterday and requested (at least twice IIRC) that this thread be moved back over for discussion in his TR. The Super Mod has refused his request at this time, so I am wondering what the OP's "next move" will be?
To me, with the invention of this thread, he has lost his "control" over the situation.

Laz

[kievstar]

There is a section here where people can write and not be distracted.  You can also write on a word document and post the entire report at once.

People who slowly write a trip report and do not want comments but do it in an area of the board where you can write comments just like the attention.  

Does not take long to write a trip report.  If it does, than I doubt how factual it is as over time people forget.  

[Jooky]

Lazarus, this is what he posted at the start of his report:

Disclaimer::: It should be noted that all of the opinions, observations, prejudices, observations, etc.. Are my own. Names , faces and some information has been changed to protect the guilty, and innocent (though they are of a decidedly small minority here ).

I welcome constructive criticism, and observations, opinions, etc... Any thought you have of flaming or anything of that vein, please don't waste your time or mine.

As always and with everything else Your Mileage May Vary.  All grammar and spelling mistakes are my own, please no lectures.  I am writing this in hopes to help others learn from my experiences, and or not to repeat my mistakes. This is an ongoing story and I will do my best to keep it up to date. I just haven't decided how much about which parts I'm going to share... I'll do my best not to disappoint y'all on the action parts though...This trip I took a number of calculated risks. As with any risk it sometimes may not pay off.

I ask the peanut gallery to wait until the TR is complete before pitching in with chiding and opinion on various points.

Thanks in advance.
Buckle up boys and girls and enjoy the ride.
 

That's what I was referring to.

Even if he had requested no comments at all until the end, I don't see why it's so difficult to comply without some mechanism to control posters who apparently can't control themselves.

Then again, I don't understand the need for the Ignore feature either. If you don't want to read what some poster says, don't read it.  :noidea:

[Misha]

Again the author is in complete control of this process. He can be like TBB or a big cry baby.

You always have the option of not replying to each and every post in a thread  If you believe that someone is part of a peanut gallery, then ignore them. But, quite often, the peanut gallery is despised because they can point out that the emperor is naked from time to time   

[Lazarus]

But, quite often, the peanut gallery is despised because they can point out that the emperor is naked from time to time

Laz

[Ade]

Lazarus, this is what he posted at the start of his report:
 

That's what I was referring to.

Even if he had requested no comments at all until the end, I don't see why it's so difficult to comply without some mechanism to control posters who apparently can't control themselves.

Then again, I don't understand the need for the Ignore feature either. If you don't want to read what some poster says, don't read it.  :noidea:

Of course I can control myself but I chose not to. But I am constrained by the forum rules which state nowhere that a thread starter can dictate when a member can post. If anyone does not want to use the mechanism in place for that called "sans response" then they have to accept that people will do as they feel like within the constraints of the forum rules.

For those that think it's impolite to butt in halfway through a TR, how long would you say is polite to wait before you give up on a poster to finish his report? A week? Month? 2? indefinitely?

We already know he's had more than 2 months to finish. We also know that he didn't have to post until it was done. Yet he chose to. Why is that I wonder? So that his TR could enrich the lives of newbies?

I'm sorry but these requests to be "polite" and not butt in are just silly on a discussion forum that is designed for people to interact by posting in each other's threads particularly when there are many ways to prevent it if he really wanted that.  

[Handycam72]

Now forgive me as I've only done a quick scan of this thread, but I thought I would add my 2 cents.

I know when I wrote my trip report last year, it would be one that would get ripped apart by some, purely by the very nature of it being a Train Wreck. So for me the best option was use a Word Document and post it as one job lot. Then all is there for people to see and comment, the discussion then follows.

[Jooky]

Jaded, I'm sure you get my point and it's not that hard to be just a little bit polite.

Eric didn't dictate anything, he made a request. It didn't take a week or a month for posters to completely ignore his request, it took a day. He started his report here on September 1 and he was already asking again for posters not to derail his report on September 2.

Guys, could we not hijack the thread into a WMVM vs WOVO debate?

Some people need laws in place to stop them from littering the streets with trash. Others don't litter out of simple respect and courtesy.

So again, despite the technical rules of the forums, it shouldn't be that hard to honor a simple request to wait a bit while the man finishes his report and then tear him apart all you want.

[Eduard]

Most of my guys spend somewhere in between $700 and $1500 on that. It is very important to know that this kind of gift is ONLY appropriate if you developed a real relationship with your girl and you both are planning to take this relationship to the next level.

Maybe I got off cheap but this still sounds like a lot of money. My wife accepted an engagement gift which was an old ring with a semi-precious stone along with a very small diamond that I had converted into a necklace.Cost to me about $150. I forget the orginal price of the ring but it was a long time ago and not expensive at all.  Her wedding band, which she picked out herself, cost me $78 in Belarus and I couldnt get her to spend a dollar more, and I tried.

Even at home, I would not spend a grand unless I knew it was a done deal. Not just "the next level". Whatever that may mean. Sometimes more meaningful gifts go a lot further than expensive.IMHO.

everybody is different and some men feel comfortable buying a $150 ring others would spend a lot more than that. There is no rule on that. It's up to the individual. The difference is how you want your lady to feel. It's not about a price of jewelry but it is about how that gift will make the woman you are falling in love with feel. Maybe you can make a gorgeous piece with your own hands and it will cost you just a few dollars but she will be so impressed... but if you can't, generally a more beautiful piece will cost more money. In this case money is just the means of giving your beloved something that she will absolutely love, cherrish and enjoy. It's not about the price.

[Shadow]

It's not about the price.

That is something usually said by people who wish to make excuses for extravagant spending.

It's the thought that counts.
Is the usual counterpart of this.

Many men are already handicapped by their age, looks, size, and past. Sometimes they try to compensate this by over-spending in order to raise expectations and buy their way in to the heart of the woman or her family.
A $1000 gift is great, if that is what the guy will realisticly spend on her regularly. If it is only to win het heart and he will be stuck on payments afterwards, it is not a wise thing.
Gifts should be within a regular spending budget, and not raise expectations that can not be matched later.

[Gator]

Of course I can control myself but I chose not to....

For those that think it's impolite to butt in halfway through a TR...

I'm sorry but these requests to be "polite" and not butt in are just silly on a discussion forum...

I have been restraining myself.  No longer.  I hope I do not sink too far, yet I really don't care.


SeriouslyJaded, as intelligent as you are, I don't understand why you are so rude.  Yes, you are rude as well as cold and smug.

Do you remember Mars?  He started a trip report about the 27 women he met over 45 days while working on a mission to help orphanages.

The vast majority of the readers encouraged Mars to keep writing.   Only two RWD members went overboard with their criticism:  you and Sculpto. 

You were the first to post, a mere two hours after Mars got started with what would have been his version of the Iliad and the Odyssey.  Your post is captured by these few words of yours: "...many things that are wrong with what you say and your attitude..."  The man was just getting started - why didn't you give him a break?

vwrw disagreed with your criticism of Mars and explained her reasoning in a scholarly manner.  Your response to vwrw's argument:

remember that vwrw thinks it's absolutely normal for a twenty-something to want to be with a guy 35 years or more her senior, so her opinion for anything approaching normality is suspect from the get go.

I find this uncalled for.  It was rude, a personal attack, had no scholarly merit,  and had nothing to do with the point being discussed, a point which never should have been raised by you so early because it was interruptive.

Pretend RWD was a club and we are sitting at a bar talking about RW.  If you said something to me like you did to vwrw, I would have punched you in your long nose.

AJ and Jooky are Americans and you are English.  Are you an example of English civility?

Most of the points you make about ecr's mistakes are valid.  If you were indeed interested in teaching newbies, I believe you would have been more constructive in your delivery, something ecr requested.   BTW, I still asert that ecr for the most part already knew his mistakes.   

[GQBlues]

::::golf clap all around::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Good post AJ...

But mewonders...will that be THE Open Championship type of clapping, or the FBR Phoenix Open, 16th hole roar variety?  

[Faux Pas]

Jaded, I'm sure you get my point and it's not that hard to be just a little bit polite.

Eric didn't dictate anything, he made a request. It didn't take a week or a month for posters to completely ignore his request, it took a day. He started his report here on September 1 and he was already asking again for posters not to derail his report on September 2.
 

Some people need laws in place to stop them from littering the streets with trash. Others don't litter out of simple respect and courtesy.

So again, despite the technical rules of the forums, it shouldn't be that hard to honor a simple request to wait a bit while the man finishes his report and then tear him apart all you want.

Jooky, the way I see it here is ERC asked to withhold the remarks until he's finish. Well, fair enough. If he is expecting some to honor his request then, he is left with a duty to finish, wouldn't you agree?

If so, what is a reasonable amount of time to finish? If ERC is asking that his request be honored, at some point he should honor the posters and finish the TR. If ERC expects courtesies he should be willing to extend them as well.

As it is, he has a TR hanging out there in infinity where he has already baited enough up with questions from his odd behavior. He should finish it and invite the questions or shut up about it. Turnabout is fair play. Seems most feel they have waited long enough and decided not to abide by his wishes. They have that right, it's an open forum IMO

[Faux Pas]

Good post AJ...

But mewonders...will that be THE Open Championship type of clapping, or the FBR Phoenix Open, 16th hole roar variety?  

The Byron Nelson Classic clap is generally pretty loud followed by WOO HOOs in unison