Re: Women and Work in the USSR

[ECOCKS]

Be cautious with that attitude Steamer, many FSUW are more into the "traditional" definitation of married couple than AM, ie: the man is the bread winner and the woman takes care of the home.

Not among the couples I know.

I can think of only one married FSUW who does not work full-time among the dozen or so who are married to expats nor among my Ukrainian family or friends married to locals.

Strikes me as still another example of those claiming they are determined to marry one of those "traditional" women yet they keep shopping amongst the pampered poodle puppies sipping coffee on Kreshatyk Monday through Friday afternoons.

[Steamer]

Be cautious with that attitude Steamer, many FSUW are more into the "traditional" definitation of married couple than AM, ie: the man is the bread winner and the woman takes care of the home.

If that's what anyone else wants then more power to them. But not me. Life has shown me that women laying around the house doing nothing but talking with their girlfriends is the start of BIG trouble.

[Misha]

I wanted to live an above average life style and I needed a wife that was willing to work and contribute to the cause as I do. My thinking was that a woman from the FSU would also be motivated to create a good life for herself and her kids.

Keep in mind that a woman moving to a new country may need years to eventually reestablish her career and contribute her share to an "above average lifestyle." If you want a woman who will have a high earning potential immediately, date a local woman with an established career 

[Misha]

Be cautious with that attitude Steamer, many FSUW are more into the "traditional" definitation of married couple than AM, ie: the man is the bread winner and the woman takes care of the home.

The women who stay at home and do not work will invariable start talking whimsically about birds and golden cages....  :evil: The fact of the matter is that other than maternity leave, women in the FSU have been working and not staying at home since the Revolution. There was no June Cleaver, real or imagined, in the 1950s Soviet Union 

[Steamer]

Keep in mind that a woman moving to a new country may need years to eventually reestablish her career and contribute her share to an "above average lifestyle." If you want a woman who will have a high earning potential immediately, date a local woman with an established career 

It did take a couple of yrs. and she is now established. I also dated locally and gave it up as hopeless.

[JR]

Not among the couples I know.

My ex-wife of ten years was one of them. So are many of the ladies I have communicated with. A lot have indicated they would prefer to remain at home or in the mall. If the married couples/couples you have interacted with show a different indicator I would preface it with saying that they are successfully married/coupled and perhaps that was one of their common goals and therefor a prime motivator as to why they are married/coupled.

The op isn't married/coupled yet.... The reason for my post is to encourage him explore that aspect of any potential relationship early as it may be a game changer for him.

Don't assume that because a lady says she's willing to work that it'll happen on day one. Tell an educated lady she has to scrub toilets or be a greeter at target and you'll likely to get a less than warm reception. It can take years to get up to speed here in the US so a lady can secure employment commensurate with her level of education.

Just make sure you're both on the same page, this can be a MAJOR issue.

[kievstar]

The common jobs I see in USA for RW coming on K-1 or K-3 visa are RW working in shopping malls or hair salons at least where I live.  Based on their intelligence they probably will not advance to higher level jobs eventhough they have 4 plus years of university level schooling.  It appears to me that in the FSU they handout degrees sometimes without students actually going to school.  These RW than latch onto AM. 

On the other hand I see many RW coming to USA on work visas and jump right into high level jobs.

If your RW actually earned her degree and speaks and writes English she will be working in high level jobs within 2 years.  The USA has such a huge demand for high level jobs it is very easy to get a job if your qualified.  The majority of the 10% unemployed right now loves the free handouts or wants to be over paid for their abilities.  There are many high level jobs open right now. 

[veritas]

The majority of the 10% unemployed right now loves the free handouts or wants to be over paid for their abilities.

What makes you say this, kievstar?  Sounds like a pretty broad generalization there ...

Kevin

[Boethius]

The women who stay at home and do not work will invariable start talking whimsically about birds and golden cages....  :evil: The fact of the matter is that other than maternity leave, women in the FSU have been working and not staying at home since the Revolution. There was no June Cleaver, real or imagined, in the 1950s Soviet Union 

While women entered the Soviet workforce in great numbers after WWII, before then, many women did not work.  Neither of my husband's Grandmothers, who were married before WWII, ever worked outside the home.  Both were urban housewives their whole lives.  One died during Gorbachev's time, the other, long after the collapse of the USSR.  Both were superior to June Cleaver, as they cooked, baked, cleaned, sewed, and took care of grandchildren.  Their experience was not particularly unusual for urban women of their generation.

[Misha]

While women entered the Soviet workforce in great numbers after WWII, before then, many women did not work.  Neither of my husband's Grandmothers, who were married before WWII, ever worked outside the home.  Both were urban housewives their whole lives.  One died during Gorbachev's time, the other, long after the collapse of the USSR.  Both were superior to June Cleaver, as they cooked, baked, cleaned, sewed, and took care of grandchildren.  Their experience was not particularly unusual for urban women of their generation.

I disagree, their experience is unusual, particularly staying at home during WWII. As you know, pretty much all the men were sent to the front. Who was it that took their place in the factories and fields? The women of course. After the war, I have yet to meet any woman who simply stayed at home before retiring. Some changed professions to be closer to her children: one woman that I knew for example, now in her seventies, worked in a school instead of pursuing her degree in geology so she could spend more time with her children, but she still worked. I have yet to meet one woman in her sixties, seventies or eighties who did not have a job. Even the women out in the countryside were invariably employees of the collective or state farms 

[Boethius]

I disagree, their experience is unusual, particularly staying at home during WWII. As you know, pretty much all the men were sent to the front. Who was it that took their place in the factories and fields? The women of course. After the war, I have yet to meet any woman who simply stayed at home before retiring. Some changed professions to be closer to her children: one woman that I knew for example, now in her seventies, worked in a school instead of pursuing her degree in geology so she could spend more time with her children, but she still worked. I have yet to meet one woman in her sixties, seventies or eighties who did not have a job. Even the women out in the countryside were invariably employees of the collective or state farms  

I asked my husband, who probably met a lot more Soviet women than you ever will.  He also grew up among women.  He said in the cities, his Grandmothers' experience was the norm.  In fact, he said "Nobody worked."  He also said it was a country destroyed by war, there were no jobs, they weren't paying much, and half of a salary was paid in vouchers (called "obligations").  That was the case until Khrushchev changed the ruble in the 1960's.   He said once people were released from collective farms in the 1970's, women started entering the workforce in large numbers.

Note, I did leave out those who worked on collective farms.  They were, in essence, indentured servants.

[Misha]

I asked my husband, who probably met a lot more Soviet women than you ever will.  He also grew up among women.  He said in the cities, his Grandmothers' experience was the norm.  Note, I did leave out those who worked on collective farms.  They were, in essence, indentured servants.

So? If I ask my wife, she will tell me that she did not know of any women who stayed at home with any of her friends or acquaintances and I am sure she knows as many Russian women as your husband, likely more 

[Boethius]

I would hazard a guess your wife is much younger than my husband  .  Your wife probably doesn't remember when peasants couldn't leave the collective farm.  She was not a child in the 1960's.  My husband was.

My husband remembers when the only people who could buy socks were state employees (party officials, mostly).  Everyone else wore boots, with cloth wound around their feet.

[Misha]

I would hazard a guess your wife is much younger than my husband  .  Your wife was not a child in the 1960's.  My husband was.

And? I can also ask her how many of her friends and acquaintances grandmothers had worked  :evil: Again, in Soviet times it was expected that EVERYBODY would work, including women. It was a social norm, enforced by the state. That is why all the factories invariably had daycares. If you want to argue that in Russia in Soviet times the majority of women in the 1950s and 1960s stayed home to cook borscht even when their children where no longer infants (i.e. older than 3 years of age), you are wrong.

[possum]

Having grown up in a city among city babushkas, I have to agree with Misha.. It was unheard of for a healthy woman to not have any kind of employment either during or after the GPW. Staying at home and doing nothing was in fact an offense punishable by the penal code of the USSR. During the GPW, most city women worked in factories or performed other duties related to maintaining the country's defense capabilities.. For a while, they essentially replaced men in many labor positions.

[Boethius]

And? I can also ask her how many of her friends and acquaintances grandmothers had worked  :evil: Again, in Soviet times it was expected that EVERYBODY would work, including women. It was a social norm, enforced by the state. That is why all the factories invariably had daycares. If you want to argue that in Russia in Soviet times the majority of women in the 1950s and 1960s stayed home to cook borscht even when their children where no longer infants (i.e. older than 3 years of age), you are wrong.

Misha, you said there "There was June Cleaver, real or imagined, in the 1950's Soviet Union".  That is what I responded to, and you are wrong.  My husband grew up in the 1960's, and all the women of his Grandmother's generation were housewives.  As I posted above, he said there were no jobs, the state didn't pay people.  He said people later couldn't live on one salary.  Salaries didn't increase, but the cost of living did.

You referred to factories.  Those were not rebuilt, largely, until the 1960's.  He said later, people worked, producing "useless stuff", to keep themselves busy.

possum, I am referring to women who were older.  The "babushkas" you refer to are the same age as my MIL, who did work.  

[Misha]

My husband grew up in the 1960's, and all the women of his Grandmother's generation were housewives.

Sorry, as Possum states, not working was contrary to Soviet laws. The exception being if a woman had an infant child. The women of your husband's grandmother's generation in the 1960s were clearly already RETIRED. June Cleaver was not a retired grandmother staying at home with her grandchildren  :evil:

[Boethius]

I am referring to the 1950's.  And, no, his Grandmothers were not retired at that time.  They were not old enough.  Nor were they old enough to be retired in the 1960's, though one did reach retirement age in the 1960's.

possum, as far as you were not involved in criminal activity, you would be watched, but you would not be arrested.  In fact, for those the authorities wished to harass, this was the normal.  For example, when my husband returned from the navy, he didn't have a passport.  Without a passport, he couldn't get a job.  Without a job, he couldn't get a passport.  So, he was without both a passport and a job.  During that period all his "friends" appeared to "help" him.  All the while, authorities are watching you for you to slip up and of course, your "friends" are helping them.  He had a friend in the same position, who sat without a job for almost a year.  That friend, out of frustration, moved to a small town outside Moscow.  He was a musician, and eventually was in one of the USSR's most popular rock groups.  Today, he is a leading songwriter/music producer.

One part of the system in that period, he said, terrorizes you, telling you "You have to work, you have to work", while the other side slowly processes your information.  He said that period was usually two, or a maximum of three, months.  He said "You come to realize the real value of your friends, and the real value of all those "candy broads" who surround you."

From Capital Accumulation and the Division of Labour in the Soviet Union  Cambridge Journal of Economics -

(A) spurt in the number of females entering the labour force occurred in the 1960s, at a time of labour shortages. In 1960 slightly over twenty-nine million women were economically active outside the home, and by the end of that decade the figure had shot to over forty four million (TsSU, 1975c: 27). An influx of housewives into social production partly accounted for this increase, and the number of women staying at home fell from eighteen million in 1959 to six million in 1970 (Perevedentsev, 1975b: 121). . .  (M)any had to work since they were the only parent in an estimated one in seven households (Riurikov, 1977: 117-8). Although housewives boosted the numbers of the work force during the labour shortages of the 1960s, it is acknowledged that such labour reserves are now significantly depleted. Women at home can no longer save or maintain the economy during future labour shortages (Perevedentsev, 1975).

[veritas]

Good move, Boethius, but why aren't the actual posts from Misha in here as well?

Kevin

[veritas]

Good move, Boethius, but why aren't the actual posts from Misha in here as well?

Oops, looks like I spoke too soon, 'cuz there they are ... I guess you weren't done yet ...

Kevin

[kievstar]

My wife has two female relatives still living and close to 100 years old.  They both worked prior to 1950.  I just talked with them face to face.  I also read numerous books about early 1900's what was FSU territory and many women worked.  Regarding 1955 to 1970 that I can not comment on other than every women I have ever known in Ukraine who was older than 20 at that time worked. 

Misha have fun with Boethius she gets her information from her husband or google.  In the eyes of Boethius her husband is all knowing about FSU.  Strange that he lives now in Alberta Canada but a master of all Ukraine

[Misha]

Misha, you said there "There was June Cleaver, real or imagined, in the 1950's Soviet Union".

Boethius, as usual, rather than admitting that you were wrong, you are nitpicking. Were there mother's staying at home in spite of the Soviet propaganda that idealized the worker-mother? Sure, why not. However, there weren't many middle-class women baking pies in the suburbs of the Soviet Union  :evil: Even the citation that you provide demonstrates this: given the pressure for women to work, Soviet women, who had worked whether they wanted or not during the GPW were being pushed to work and by 1970 effectively all the women that could work were at work 

[GQBlues]

Having grown up in a city among city babushkas, I have to agree with Misha.. It was unheard of for a healthy woman to not have any kind of employment either during or after the GPW. Staying at home and doing nothing was in fact an offense punishable by the penal code of the USSR. During the GPW, most city women worked in factories or performed other duties related to maintaining the country's defense capabilities.. For a while, they essentially replaced men in many labor positions.

Wow! Great bit of information there possum as I wasn't aware of this. Thanks mightily!

Would it safe to presume then that business hour schedule back then was 12:00-20:00 / 13:00-21:00, making proper allowance for the fact most, if not all RWs, weren't capable of waking up until 11:00 AM?

 

[Boethius]

kiev, my husband lived in the USSR until its collapse.  He was in his thirties at that time.  You never lived in the USSR.  He has returned twice in the past two years, staying with relatives who lived in the USSR and have lived continuously in Kyiv.  He phones "home" regularly, and unlike you, he speaks Russian fluently.  As in, native fluency.

He is a fish in water there.  He never needed a pro dater to show him the ropes.  He would never think that a desire for a solid gold cellphone was normal.  He was never under the illusion that the rich and powerful in post Soviet Ukraine were anything other than the criminal element who ran the country before its collapse.  He never lived as a privileged foreigner in a poor country.

The reality is, that unlike you, he actually lived among these women, and he lived in that society.  So you talked to two women.  Big deal.  You never lived in the USSR.  By your "logic", we should discount any opinions anyone has on any society they grew up in, but listen to the logic of foreigners who can't speak the language and have a limited grasp on the culture and morality of the country.

Were there mother's staying at home in spite of the Soviet propaganda that idealized the worker-mother? Sure, why not. However, there weren't many middle-class women baking pies in the suburbs of the Soviet Union  evil grin Even the citation that you provide demonstrates this: given the pressure for women to work, Soviet women, who had worked whether they wanted or not during the GPW were being pushed to work and by 1970 effectively all the women that could work were at work  Roll Eyes

I never stated I was referring to 1970.  I was specifically referring to the 1950's.  As I posted, once peasants were allowed to leave the collectives, the number of women in the workforce increased dramatically.  However, my citation also demonstrates that female participation in the workforce was much lower in the 1950's.

[possum]

Wow! Great bit of information there possum as I wasn't aware of this. Thanks mightily!

Would it safe to presume then that business hour schedule back then was 12:00-20:00 / 13:00-21:00, making proper allowance for the fact most, if not all RWs, weren't capable of waking up until 11:00 AM?

 

Back then, if you slept past 7 am you were labeled a "tuneyadets" (criminally idle)