When to have a baby?

[Dar]

I just explained how I benefit from having a baby to the tune of $2,000 a year.  That's a lot more than I would get in Ukraine.  I don't think Ukraine is a model of social or fiscal policy since it basically lives off of Russia and the IMF and has one of the lowest birth rates in the world.  The only way having a child will not deliver you some financial aid in the USA is if you are self employed and already cheat on your taxes [edited].  BTW I know of a Ukrainian man nearby who was deported after getting a DUII and was found to have been not paying his taxes on his business.

personal insult

Poor guy  
I know that the UK offers pretty good financial support too. However, I did not mention that because I am not aware of the exact figures in order to demonstrate the legitimacy of my argument. But, I've lived in the UK for a very short period of time, and I saw how people live. Additionally, my husband spent there a number of years. I remember we talked quite a bit about the fact how some people and their families can live off government's support not even having to work. I have a legal degree in Ukrainian law, so I feel more comfortable talking about what I know for sure providing some factual info.
You are right about the fact that Ukrainian population is declining, and the Ukrainian government is trying to encourage citizens to have a larger number of kids. I acknowledge your argument about the Ukraine living off IMF funds as well. However, USA did not get much further. We all know that China is holding a great amount of USA government bonds. We are basically in debt too. Once China claims back the money, US government goes bankrupt. Even now there is huge budget deficit in US and Obama's new policies are not helping. Anyway, this is not a topic for the current discussion. I'd better avoid talking politics because for many it is a sensitive subject.

[kievstar]

My wife and I are having a baby and baby will create about 5,000 of tax savings for me and I file a 7 figure tax return.  Current tax code is very pro population increase.

USA going bankrupt would be great.  When there is chaos there is great opportunity.

[Simoni]

So how do you know when to have a baby?
For me to have one now seems like a great window, because i'm studying and it takes up very little time, also still studying the language, pretty sure it's gonna be a couple years until it gets to a decent level, so all in all, i should be ready to look for a job in about 3 years. Perfect window to have a baby and send it to kindergarten (they start kindergarten at 2.5 yrs old here).
I know myself, and sure as hell i do not wanna work while i'm pregnant or with a very small baby (under 2 yrs old), so if i wait with baby, i have to finish studying in any case, so that's 3 years, then start working, and if i have a baby then, i'd have to quit my job for at least 3-4 years, which sounds like a career suicide if done right in the beginning of it. And if i don't do it in the beginning, then i'm kinda old to have babies, i read if you have a baby under 25, your body recovers SIGNIFICANTLY easier from it, than after 30. I don't wanna be ugly. Not to mention that after 35 risks of having a down syndrome baby grow dramatically ( http://www.ds-health.com/risk.htm ), a woman of 20-24 has 1 in 1400 chance of having a retard, a woman of 40 its 1 in 100.
But it's kinda scary to think of having a baby, there is like a million things that could go wrong, from somebody forgetting to support its head and snapping the neck to plain dropping it, or falling off the stairs, which we have a million of (2 flights of steep stairs), my husband's nephew still can't walk downstairs (they have a lot less steep stairs than ours) and he is 3. He can't walk upstairs either, but he can climb upstairs using hands as well as legs.
So this is what i've been thinking. How do you know when to have one??
The most logical answer here seems that if i don't feel ready, then it isn't time yet, but for reasons mentioned above this may be the only suitable time in the next 10 years. And i'd love to have a baby, i'm just scared of all the things that could go wrong! Sigh
How did you all have a baby? Was it planned? And did you feel ready for it when you found out you were gonna have one?

Good questions, Aloe.  My wife and I celebrated five years together this week.   We waited three years to have a baby...we wanted time to enjoy life together and to grow stronger as as couple.  Our daughter came when my wife was 33; she "recovered" completely within a few short months and looked as great as ever.  So I think most of your worries should not be a concern.  My advice--go for it!  It will be the best thing that ever happens to you, I predict 

[Daveman]

...I felt like eating some Ukrainian cuisine such as borscht and home style pot roast with potato.

So that's my problem...  ah well... coming soon to a supermarket mag rack near you  :evil:

[Dar]

Good questions, Aloe.  My wife and I celebrated five years together this week.   We waited three years to have a baby...we wanted time to enjoy life together and to grow stronger as as couple.  Our daughter came when my wife was 33; she "recovered" completely within a few short months and looked as great as ever.  So I think most of your worries should not be a concern.  My advice--go for it!  It will be the best thing that ever happens to you, I predict 

It is nice to see you here, Simoni! I was not sure whether you still post on this forum. I am glad that you and your wife are doing great.

[mies]

By breeding, all you will be doing is contributing to that pointless cycle. The Earth is already overpopulated. Why do you want to contribute to this awful situation? Just so you can fufill the blind will that pointlessly drives the Universe?

Brian, I hope you will excuse me my blunt comment, but every conscious human being who wants to stop overpopulation has the wonderful choices of:
- getting sterilized to ensure they do not contribute to overpopulation personally
- committing a suicide - thus reducing the number of people on Earth by 1.

 

[3T_Ventus]

Mies and BrainW!

Sorry to bust you bubble...I just have to leave a comment. Is the earth overpopulated or are cities overcrowding? Mankind needs to widen out and make use of the available space. Getting sterilized and adopting homeless children into a loving and caring family is certainly a good option. But suicide...? Ok, I am catching the satire you are trying to deliver. 

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2010/03/the-overpopulation-myth/

http://www.overpopulation.org/human.html

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/sahara-forest-project.php

Aloe, sorry for attempting to derail you thread. I have enjoyed reading it and getting some useful info. It would be nice to see a new baby born. Good luck!

[Simoni]

It is nice to see you here, Simoni! I was not sure whether you still post on this forum. I am glad that you and your wife are doing great.

Thanks, Dar!  It was certainly nice meeting you two in Dnepr and having coffee. Let's keep in touch!

No, I don't spend much time online anymore.   My time is mostly devoted to my family and then to real life relationships and to my work.  But I do stop by here from time to time to answer PMs and to touch base with the many friends we have here.

Congrats on your upcoming baby!  That is fabulous news!

Our *baby* is a big girl now--19 months old!  She is the joy of our life.

Going back to the topic of this thread--make sure your relationship is secure before you have a child, and then continue to make the marriage number one and the child number two.  When that happens, the family is in the correct centering and the baby is happiest and is better off.

~Simoni

[mies]

Mies and BrainW!

Sorry to bust you bubble...I just have to leave a comment. Is the earth overpopulated or are cities overcrowding? Mankind needs to widen out and make use of the available space. Getting sterilized and adopting homeless children into a loving and caring family is certainly a good option. But suicide...? Ok, I am catching the satire you are trying to deliver.  

i thought I delivered my satire successfully and you are telling me that I only tried??  
Overpopulation is a serious question, and I am not quite certain how serious my answer should be (or whether you were also trying to deliver satire ).
Space is certainly not the only problem with overpopulation. Resources are. Food. Energy. They already are in deficit. They do not fully satisfy the needs of African continent, for example. Crop productivity seems to already being pushed to its limit, even with introduction of GMO products. What are going to be the long-term effects of massive GMO production to satisfy food demand? Nobody really knows this. How about protein? It takes much more space and resources to raise a cow than to grow wheat. Are we going to switch to mushrooms instead (since 2 of the aminoacids can be found only in animals and mushrooms and not in soybeans)?
Energy deficit- we all know about it.
When we are speaking about growing Earth population - we are not just speaking about more people born, we also in certain way imply that ALL of these people are going to be eventually able to have reasonable access to sanitation, water, food, medical services, education, and overall will have good standard of life - comparable to that of the developed Western countries. Apparently, this is going to require much more resources than is already used now. Amount of resources on our planet is finite.
Then comes the issue of ecological balance. Human is one of many species on Earth. It is in some way different from other species, but what happens if one species overpopulates? It depletes available resources, overhunts on other species, and then - dies. That's the way things work.

The second part of your question: whether cities are overpopulated and whether it is bad. My personal opinion is that proliferating suburbia will ultimately have negative effect on western (or overall human) civilization. The more you expand to suburbia - the more you need to invest into developing and constructing the infrastructure to sustain this suburbia. More complex infrastructure and greater distance will surely lead to resource losses (time, energy in the grid, etc) and will be costly to construct and maintain. If not designed carefully - they will be also quite inefficient. If people will come up with a technological leap to address the infrastructure and energy loss problems - then maybe spreading population over greater territory could be feasible. But then again - we are always facing the problem of ecological balance. Large predators for example need much territory, and fragmented pieces of wildlife here and there would not do it. If people occupy all the space - where would other species live?

In the Western countries overpopulation is not a problem - these nations are aging. The problem is that people in the Western world who are procreating most are usually people either of "lower" (in my fascist opinion) value for the society - drug addicts, drunkards, criminals, etc. They procreate, they do not take care of their offsprings, and they create a burden for society, plus their children are quite likely to follow the path of their parents. Should the "lower value" people be deprived of the chance to have children? - of course not. This is a huge human rights issue, and we all know that social experiments with compulsory sterilization, most notably known from Sweden and USA, and many other European countries even though were successful in controlling the crime in all these countries, were soon banned because of their anti-humane nature.

Population growth in Africa, India, and China - in my opinion is the biggest problem. This is a problem in Africa because now the population there is controlled naturally by hunger and diseases. If the west will continue pouring their humanitarian help onto Africa, and will eradicate hunger and diseases - the "good times" will come too fast to Africa, human capital is not there (in sufficient amount), other forms of capital - not yet developed locally, it will be a big "cosmic black hole" sucking the resources from other continents.

and I can go on and on.. I hope my oversimplified comment does not look like offense to your intelligence.

Whether I am going to have children - probably. Whether I will have many children - not very likely. Whether I will tell my friend or anyone in general "you should not have children because Earth is overpopulated" - of course I will never do that.

P.S. i've heard about the Sahara forest project, and few similar ones. Cool staff

[3T_Ventus]

Mies!

You did deliver your satire successfully and left in the right context and rightly understood it can be classified as such. I appreciate this art-form of comedy 

You addressed the problem of overpopulation well. Over the millenniums this has become one of the most complex challenge man has ever faced. It is becoming an enigma as more questions arise which are difficult to answer and solve. Industrialization has had its effects and cities have evolved into what they are now. It is more intricate then I can and will ever perceive. A simplified comment or view is in some cases very desirable, especially in complex situations. It is just much easier to brainstorm and come to simplified conclusions. Translating simplified conclusions to balanced solutions I leave over to the experts and professionals in their respected fields.

Unsustainable population growth is certainly a challenge in underdeveloped countries. Distribution of food and medicine, proper sanitation, good irrigation, irrigation water, drink water, family expansion education and more. Where to start? Uncorrupted coherent government, ruling by principal, knowledge and wisdom rather then self enrichment. Such a government will them be able to steer the country in the right direction...and we have only just scratched the surface...

City growth is certainly becoming an issue whether living in developed or underdeveloped country. Widening out is not an easy solution as you already have mentioned.  Unbalancing of the ecological structure can sometimes have an irreversible and detrimental effect on both animal and mankind, very true. And this is just one of the so many challenges we face. Will mankind rise to the occasion and learn to cope, creating ingenious solutions. Of course, it can be done. There are many examples of the past which support the notion that man has the capabilities and ingenuity to solve challenges. 

I share you opinion that no one can infringed on the right of of any human to have children. I wish to have children too. I will educate them on the positive and negative affects of mankind has to his surrounding and that we are responsible for our own actions. I have been contemplating to adopt children, two or one self made and maybe one adoption. Lets see what the future will bring...Let me get married first, lol...



 

 

[mies]

...
I have been contemplating to adopt children, two or one self made and maybe one adoption. Lets see what the future will bring...Let me get married first, lol...

Great reply, thank you 3T_Ventus. Agreed on all accounts.
As for getting married - please take your time, I am not going to rush you )))

I am thinking at times of the same plan - to have 1 baby of my own and adopt 1-2 more if finances will allow. But I am somewhat wary of the prospect of adopting a child with physical and mental health issues. The dilemma is "problem orphans/abandoned children" need as much or even more help as healthy ones, while I would want my children to succeed at life to the utmost, and certain achievements might be beyond mental and physical capabilities of a child whose parents were heavily drinking while conceiving him/her. I am only human, and I do not want to overestimate my emotional abilities to raise a problem child. So.. we'll see.
For now i've started with adopting cats. One of my cats came from abusive family, and it took me 2 years before he started getting rid of his neuritic impulses. I have developed my own habit of sleeping face down the pillow so that cat doesn't get into my eyes when i sleep, occasionally was wearing fancy scratches on my face. I'm sure with children from bad background it's going to be much harder, and will require much more time, love, and patience to help them learn good things in life.

[3T_Ventus]

Mies!

I also thank you for elaborating on the subject thus forcing me to think deeply and recapture human accomplishments.

I will heed your wise words to take my time in my search for a suitable wife...

Your giving me ideas as to adopting children. I have never had pets and so do not know how they behave or interact. Interesting, I might follow suit and adopt a cat too.

I am weary of orphans with bad or hard background too. I am doing some research and hopefully expanding my knowledge to be able to tackle this challenge. Good that you have brought it to my attention. I am sure that you will be successful and prepared for what is to come! Good luck and many blessings!

[mies]

Thank you 3T_Ventus! and my best wishes to you too.
Do you communicate in such formal style only in English, or in Dutch as well?  

[3T_Ventus]

...you found out that I speak Dutch. Yes, I communicate in this formal style in Dutch! 
You do as well Mies? Is mijn veronderstelling juist: spreekt u ook Nederlands? (=are my assumption correct: do you speak Dutch as well?)

[mies]

Unfortunately, I do not speak Dutch, know few phrases, and can pick up the meaning of some simple sentences. Hopefully in future I'll learn it, but the pronunciation part is definitely going to be tough..

[3T_Ventus]

The you are doing great! Dutch is not easy and have heard many complain. I have the same experience with the Russian language. I had to learn the alphabet first and then the international words. I started to comprehend much faster but really need to study hard. My linguistic ability is mediocre at best, so need to repeat many times in speech and reading. You will do better then me, for sure.

Do you mind if I ask you a question? Is that your cat and is Mies her name? Mies is a name used also in Dutch.

[vwrw]

I am thinking at times of the same plan - to have 1 baby of my own and adopt 1-2 more if finances will allow. But I am somewhat wary of the prospect of adopting a child with physical and mental health issues. The dilemma is "problem orphans/abandoned children" need as much or even more help as healthy ones, while I would want my children to succeed at life to the utmost, and certain achievements might be beyond mental and physical capabilities of a child whose parents were heavily drinking while conceiving him/her. I am only human, and I do not want to overestimate my emotional abilities to raise a problem child. So.. we'll see.

Mies, did you ever consider being a foster parent? Before I was also thinking that I would adopt one –two children when I am about 45 y.o. However, later, seeing all the requests that ask people to become foster parents, I was thinking maybe it would be better to become a foster parent than to be an adopter of a child.

[mies]

thank you, I'm sure you're doing great in Russian.
yes, this is 1 of my cats (i have 2) and Mies is one of his names (he has many names, mostly russian, but some foreign too)
Does Mies have any particular meaning in Dutch?  

[mies]

Mies, did you ever consider being a foster parent? Before I was also thinking that I would adopt one –two children when I am about 45 y.o. However, later, seeing all the requests that ask people to become foster parents, I was thinking maybe it would be better to become a foster parent than to be an adopter of a child.

I was looking at that option too, but I am not going to take that road. If I let someone into my life - this is going to be for lifetime. I get attached, develop feelings, and overall get very territorial about everything that is part of "my" world. I will not be able to raise a child and not be a real parent. My husband shares same sentiments and does not view fostering as an option.  

[Vinnvinny]

Around 9 months after conception is my best advice, particularly if you want to avoid that bloated feeling. 

[3T_Ventus]

Thank you Mies! I will study hard.

Well, Mies is a maiden name and it means 'Brilliant by nobility'. Your cat befits the name. It is a very beautiful cat! I should really get one now.

[mies]

3T_Ventus, thank you!

[Gator]

Foster parenting is a temporary step until a permanent solution can be found for a child.

I had friends in Pennsylvania who had two of their own natural children and would have at any time 2-5 foster children of various ages, colors and creeds.   They loved children.  Life at their house was very active.  The remuneration from the Commonwealth did not begin to cover the expense of fostering.

[Zmejka]

I don't know if that still matters but here is my opinion on the subject. As or having babies we have decided to give it a try when i'm 29 or 30 (so in 2-3 years). The reason is we actually don't feel the need to do it earlier, i personally could never get that need to have children - i felt this way as long as i can remember myself. But still as i take a look at my life, in the perspective, i think that something will be missing as we decide never to have children. So, considering that my partner is rather for children, i think we'll be trying and not waiting till i'll have a certain wish. Knowing myself i already noticed that waiting doesn't help and still i get "used" (so to say) in the process and after regarding many things and events in my life.

As for Aloe situation, i would wait a couple of years, Aloe is still very young (22 or so?) and there're plenty of time ahead of her. Just because now is "a window" doesn't make it a good time, especially as i understood if even going to restaurants is expensive for them now (not talking about travels etc.) how would a child suit well in this financial picture? I understand why Aloe's husband was cautious with baby question. I hope that he changed his mind by himself and not under pressure (to make his wife happy or to avoid heavy arguments) and I also hope that nobody from Aloe's side like family members push her into child thing because "you're already 22, married and it's time, otherwise it will be late"? Anyway this was my point of view.