Ukraine Russia Closer

[tim 360]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2027389,00.html

[BC]

One thing to remember is that we are talking about budding democracies.  Remarks about FSU countries moving towards or away from democracy is quite irrational when one considers the timeframes involved.  Such things take more than a couple of decades.  I generally view the current situation as positive and probably in line with political needs.

The seeds have been planted, so best to be patient, just step back and watch what grows.

[Nat]

One thing to remember is that we are talking about budding democracies.  Remarks about FSU countries moving towards or away from democracy is quite irrational when one considers the timeframes involved.  Such things take more than a couple of decades.  I generally view the current situation as positive and probably in line with political needs.

You view the current situation as positive? It means you have no idea of what's going on here. The country is ruled by oligarchs, who're destroying tiny middle class, feel free to claim on TV that their aim is to make all entrepreneurs close their business and go back working to factories (which belong to the oligarchs), who freely discuss how to spend budget money on the roads to their houses in front of journalists (watch videos on YouTube), and who rule all the channels on TV. And you call this a positive situation? People f&cked up their country on the last voting, there's nothing more to say here.

[Eduard]

People f&cked up their country on the last voting, there's nothing more to say here.

I don't believe that people had any say in the last election...it was all decided in the Kremlin.

[BC]

You view the current situation as positive? It means you have no idea of what's going on here. The country is ruled by oligarchs, who're destroying tiny middle class, feel free to claim on TV that their aim is to make all entrepreneurs close their business and go back working to factories (which belong to the oligarchs), who freely discuss how to spend budget money on the roads to their houses in front of journalists (watch videos on YouTube), and who rule all the channels on TV. And you call this a positive situation? People f&cked up their country on the last voting, there's nothing more to say here.

Is it any different in the western world?

Is there a middle class anymore? or has it simply been demoted?

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/disturbing-statistics-on-the-decline-of-americas-middle-class/19676292/

Politicians tried to boost the middle class but ended up with a sub prime crisis.

[Nat]

I don't believe that people had any say in the last election...it was all decided in the Kremlin.

They did, but the problem is that most people are used to live under somebody, to have a national enemy and not to think about but to believe in what they hear on TV. This knowledge was wisely used in election complain. While naive democratic leaders were trying to persuade everybody that they need European laws, lifestyle and workstyle, pro-kremlin leaders just said two phrases - "others are fascists and they'll put you into concentration camps because you speak Russian" and "they are rich - lets vote against them". Needless to say that pro-kremlin leaders appeared to be more aware of what people are used to hear. And now people are protesting. But it's late.

Is it any different in the western world?

Is there a middle class anymore? or has it simply been demoted?

Oh, it is different. You just have to try to live here and to be that Ukrainian middle class in order to be able to compare and to understand the huge difference.
And besides there is at least some kind of control of politicians in the USA. If they are involved in a scandal, they are likely to resign. Here nobody resigns, no matter what they've done and what scandal they participated in.

[Nat]

double post, sorry

[GQBlues]

Politicians tried to boost the middle class but ended up with a sub prime crisis.

Not exactly. At least not in the US. The US middle class was doing just fine, it was the bottom dwellers who either couldn't read the fine print, or too stupid to add, or illegal aliens whom had universal delusions of grandeur fed by these vote-hungry politicians.

But as far as Ukraine is concerned, I do agree with you in some respect. Too much too soon can be detrimental. Maybe a gradual change is a much better approach.

[Boethius]

The view that moving to democracy occurs in "baby steps" is wrong.  Other East European countries did this. 

The communist party should have been outlawed, and its members banned from owning significant business interests or holding political power for 25 years. 

The problem, particularly in Ukraine, is that the pigs who ate from the trough 30 years ago are still at the trough.  The only difference now is, there is no "farmer" keeping their appetites in check.

Nat, don't you think the way Yushchenko and Tymoshenko ran the country into the ground was the cause of Yanukovych's win?  I don't think it had much to do with Moscow.  It's all about the ineptitude of Ukraine's own politicians.

[Eduard]

Sorry, I thought Nat was in Russia. My bad

[Nat]

Nat, don't you think the way Yushchenko and Tymoshenko ran the country into the ground was the cause of Yanukovych's win?  I don't think it had much to do with Moscow.  It's all about the ineptitude of Ukraine's own politicians.

I think the problem was that before giving Yushchenko and Tymoshenko power, Yanukovich forced them to approve a law, which divided power between these 3 sides. Neither Yushchenko, nor Tymoshenko could do anything without Yanukovich blocking their attempts. Speaking of running the country into the ground - the head of state bank, who did nothing to prevent hryvna from falling and even helped it was from Yanukovich camp. So they got very limited powers and were just bound to be compromised and leave. But during their ruling people (I mean middle class) got a lot of opportunities, they dealt with at least some corruption and it was calmer while they were ruling the country. Here is the part where it's worth mentioning tiny steps to democracy.
The first thing Yanukovich did after getting the president post was abolishing of that law which divides powers between the president, the prime minister and hears of main structures. Now they abolish laws which served against corruption.
As an example: according to our driving rules you can't drive along the left lane when the right one is empty (and it means even if the right lane has holes in the road, which Ukraine is famous for). The police used this to take bribes, but during Yuschenko there was a regulation that specified that drivers can't be fined for driving along the left lane if the state of the right lane doesn't correspond to standards, which prevented a lot of false fines and helped lower the corruption. The same regulation stated that drivers can videotape what they're talking about with the police when stopped to prevent bribery. Yesterday this regulation was abolished. As well as many others.

[acctBill]

One thing to remember is that we are talking about budding democracies.  Remarks about FSU countries moving towards or away from democracy is quite irrational when one considers the timeframes involved.  Such things take more than a couple of decades.  I generally view the current situation as positive and probably in line with political needs.

The seeds have been planted, so best to be patient, just step back and watch what grows.

BC sorry I totally disagree.  Nat is correct Russia and Ukraine are as corrupt as ever, in fact probably more so.  Refer to Transparency International's latest assessment of Russia and Ukraine with regard to corruption.  Russia actually got worse despite Medvedev's promise to reduce corruption.  Why would Medvedev or Putin and the other Kremlin insiders want Russia to be less corrupt they would all lose money?  

http://www.transparency.org/

[Eduard]

Isn't Yanukovich вор в законе, бывший зэк who even spent time in jail for his crimes before he became Ukraine's pres?

[ECOCKS]

Criminals, thugs, party hacks, it is bad.

Our (US) middle class is suffering in the current downturn but does still exist. Theirs is fighting for survival.

It will get worse before improving and the only thing that seems to offer hope is that they can't afford the army of thugs and troops to keep the lid on as the people's horizons widen to include more and more of the world.

[GQBlues]

The view that moving to democracy occurs in "baby steps" is wrong.  Other East European countries did this. 

But not without repurcussions. You can definitely make valid arguments for both views.

Berlin went broke after the fall of the wall. Slovakia struggled to find their democatic niche in the beginning and were feverishly pro-democracy and fought to gain that identity and placed Dzurinda in office instead of Vladimir Meciar. Eventually, just like Ukraine seem to be headed to, they found out the best way forward was a blend of the old with the new and found having Meciar around infuse 'balance' in their progression.

Old habits die hard.