Another newb from the States

[holyoak]

First thanks everyone for the great forum.  It has provided a wealth of not only information, but also entertainment and schadenfreude as well.  I've been lurking for a bit, and after careful consideration and reflection decided that i just might be as batshit crazy as the rest of you, and i might as well join.

Okay, about me, 40s, recently (Mar '10) divorced.  Short version; took a job that required four months away per year, ex-wifey found somebody more shiny, i found out the hard way.  Time to move on.

I would like to thank everybody in advance who will weigh in and tell me i should date locally and work on my own personal issues in order to be more attractive to women.  I can see you are trying to help me, and appreciate your concern.  In the spirit of sharing back, here's something for y'all.  Have you considered how giving the same advice so many times creates the appearance that you just generalize your observations and don't have anything unique to say to each individual?  Not that i have a problem with that, its good advice, but i've been onto that before i signed up.  Got anything else?

I've noticed that it is hard not to make generalizations in these discussions, and i'd like to offer my personal solution.  There used to be a TV show on called Family Fued.  The host (Len Dawkins?) would ask general knowledge questions with many possible answers such as "What fruit is yellow?".  Contestants who answered with the most common answers from a survey of 100 people scored more points than those who gave more obscure answers.  To bring the analogy home, yes generalizations are wrong, but 90+% of people who are asked to name a yellow fruit will reply with 'banana' or 'lemon'.  Pineapples might make interesting case discussions, but i really don't want to argue about kumquats or whether a strawberry dipped in yellow paint qualifies.  When you read my posts, please realize that i'm okay with the generalizations because they speed up the flow of information and allow folks to express themselves in simple easy terms.  I know there are kumquats out there, i'm just not gonna sift through a million bananas to find one.

My answer to the inevitable 'Why look abroad?' question.

#1.  Lets be honest, the disproportionately hot factor got us all to take the first look.  Also i would like good-looking kids (makes their life easier), and beauty is hereditary.
#2.  I want dual citizenship for my kids, the world does not need any more yankee-centric tubs of lard.
#3.  Supply and demand of women.  In general (see above) women who can wear heels, have goals and aspirations beyond finding a sugar daddy, and change a flat tire on their own are in relatively short supply here in the states.  Demand for them is very high, and there is a ton of competition, but i'm not willing to settle for less.
#4.  Supply and demand of men.  In general (see above) Western men can provide a better marriage (measured by attentiveness, courtesy, restraint, opportunities) than FSU men.  I would like to meet a woman who desires theses things and appreciates them.
#5.  I don't like routines or ruts.  FSU women sound like anything but routine.  Creating a life with someone from another culture provides opportunities for seeing the world from other viewpoints, hilarious mistranslations, learning new customs and styles.  I want someone who will challenge me, and the chance to compare my values to those of a different starting point is a good way to refine my values and who i am as person.
#6.  Crazy as a loon (in the best possible way, of course).


What else?  Yes, I've started writing a woman, about two weeks now, trying to set up the holy grail of WOVO, cuz that's what i fell most comfortable and honest doing.  I fear the odds she's a scammer are about 90%,  but i looked for all the flags revealed on here (and figured out a few more) and she passes all the standard checks squeaky-clean.  If she is a scammer, i'll be hosting a thread dishing the details that are of concern, but i would rather hope that i am just being too cautious and end up hosting a thread saying how this endeavor made both our lives that much happier.  Hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.

A couple random (and possibly controversial) opinions i've formed while lurking here.  First, there are guys on here who uses these dating sites as a form of entertainment, or maybe even therapy.  Sure it's nice to think about women who write that they find you attractive, but the fact that they are wasting these ladies' time makes it that much harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously.  Second, in general (see above), the guys on this board are damaged goods, have lost hope in themselves, are chasing a beautiful dream instead of facing an ugly reality, or some other variation on these themes.  FSU women are right to have their radar up and be wary.  But guys here should be asking the same questions.  What kind of reasons does someone have to  want to leave their family and friends, their country and culture?  I'm not trying to judge, just wondering how many of us are really brave enough to look at what may be hard truths lurking behind the scenes.

Hopefully this rambling intro has given you an insight into why i'm here, and some good combustible flamethrower material as well.  Got my flame-suit on, not really here to hear what a sweetheart i am.  i've got plenty of unsolicited letters from stunning  models that say just that

<Raising a glass for a welcome toast> To the best of luck, the zest of life, and the rest of the bottle for all of us!

H. Holyoak Lightcap

P.S.  How can i get the Colorado flag as my country flag?

[Vaughn]

It was Richard Dawson on Feud....

Welcome, guy - a nice refreshing intro, and there's room in the looney bin, so pull up a chair.

BTW - I'm one of those High Radar Rebound Marriage Early Warning System detectors, but I won't
even bother you about it. Full speed ahead.

[knighta]

Family Feud hosts

Richard Dawson (1976-1985, 1994–1995)
Ray Combs (1988–1994)
Louie Anderson (1999–2002)
Richard Karn (2002–2006)
John O'Hurley (2006–2010)
Steve Harvey (2010-present)

And welcome to the forum.

[Eduard]

But guys here should be asking the same questions.  What kind of reasons does someone have to  want to leave their family and friends, their country and culture?  I'm not trying to judge, just wondering how many of us are really brave enough to look at what may be hard truths lurking behind the scenes.

Hello and welcome to the forum (or at least switching from lurking to posting). I normally don't deal with MOB agency girls, so won't speak of their motivations for looking for a WM. Needless to say that they are a very tiny minority and in no way represent the general population of FSU women. I happen to be doing plenty of translations of letters from the gen. pop. women to western men and just today I translated the letter below that I think in a way answers your quoted question. A little background on her: She is a beautiful 30 year old. She could easily be a model IMO, but on her pics she doesn't wear much make up and seems like a down to earth woman. Also her pics are simple snapshots (no glamour photography here!). The WM is a 37 yo, very good looking, tall, successful businessman and also jiu jitsu master who, like you, was recently divorced after a long term marriage to a high school sweetheart who when starting to approach her mid 30s suddenly decided that life is passing her by and she wanted to have some fun. Never mind their kids...
Once he made the first contact with this RW she did respond and they exchanged a few short messages. Then things just started dying out and I advised him to really write a nice, deep letter, since a beautiful girl like her gets lots of oneliners and average, basic mail. Basically pour your soul out to her and see if we can move this to the next level. He did write a wonderful letter, I translated it and we sent it to her.  ,,,She didn't respond!!!  
Then, after 2 or 3 days of scilence he sent her something like: "here, I pour my soul out to you and you won't even write a word back ((("
So now she did write a response "привет не отвечаю, потому что не знаю что ответить. я по жизни реалистка, всегда твердо стою на ногах и не летаю в облаках "
Which translates "Hi, I'm not responding because I don't know what to say. I am a realist, always firmly grounded and keep my head out of the clouds " In other words, this all sounds too far fetched to her...
My guy really likes the girl though and not willing to give up! So he writes another very deep letter to her and this is what he gets back from her today (this will answer your question finally):

"To be honest, I too have to think how to respond to your letters for a long
time. They are beautiful letters and they do touch my soul, because you speak of
things that are important to me too. I do like you, both, the way you look and also
because you are an active person leading an active lifestyle and you love life. I value these qualities in a
man very much. But you must understand that one meeting or spending a
weekend together will not let either of us really understand who the other person is. I am
here and you are over there...it's all very complicated...a big
responsibility, a big step in the life of each person involved. I'm thinking
about my parents, my friends, my career...I'd have to really, seriously fall
in love with a man to leave all of that behind..."

I personally feel like it's a breakthrough letter where she finally opened up and spoke her mind after a couple of weeks of one liners.. This letter explains all the hesitation in her previous correspondence. But it also shows that she is "feeling" him, that her heart is open and that if he puts enough effort into this, he CAN get her to fall in love with him and make her his wife.

Usually you can expect this kind of honesty from the FSU women who are not part of the MOB industry. This letter is probably quite a bit different from what you are used to getting on agency sites.

Again, welcome, I enjoyed reading your post, keep them coming!

Ed

[holyoak]

Thanks for the warm welcomes, insights and info on Richard Dawkins.  I couldn't remember his name, but I do remember he went out of his way to kiss every female contestant in a way that was only borderline appropriate for TV in the 70s.  Its been a long time since I watched the Feud (or any other game show).  Thanks again for making me feel welcomed!

[Faux Pas]

Welcome to RWD holyoak!

DAWSON. Richard "Big Dick" Dawson. Once better known as Peter Newkirk on Hogan's Heroes.

Thanks for the well thought introduction but, I do have a few questions. If you lay the odds of being a scammer to this lady you are writing at 90% and after only two weeks, why are you even writing to her? Where did you meet or how did you hook up? How many women have you communicated with? Any with Skype or telephone?

Advice by those, who most generally know of what they speak, is doled out at first in generalizations more often than not. It is up to those that seek advice to peel that onion back and go deeper if that is what they desire. There are no forum mind wizards here that I am aware of. If you have a question, ask it. Basically internet forums are always generalizations. Some people have thinner skin than others. Some can handle the responses and some can't. There are forums that cater with the congratulatory slap on the back for getting scammed and encouragement to get some more but, there's not much of that here. Here is mostly good solid advice and rarely sugar coated.

[SANDRO43]

P.S.  How can i get the Colorado flag as my country flag?

I'm afraid you cannot, our Member Map function (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=mm) only provides for national flags - a Texan member got round this limitation by placing his pin in Chile , but I don't recall any nation having a flag like: 

And welcome, BTW.

[Chelseaboy]

Yes Eduard,
                I for one can confirm i never get letters like that from agency girls.
My letters are more like " I have chosen you as my man,because of your sincerity".This is a couple of days before i find her online from midnight till after 4am her time,and when confronted being told that she's making the effort to change her life,and find someone.
Not much sincerity from her side then,but just a typical agency girl/interpreter i guess.

[Eduard]

Yes Eduard,
                I for one can confirm i never get letters like that from agency girls.
My letters are more like " I have chosen you as my man,because of your sincerity".This is a couple of days before i find her online from midnight till after 4am her time,and when confronted being told that she's making the effort to change her life,and find someone.
Not much sincerity from her side then,but just a typical agency girl/interpreter i guess.

sadly, most men go the agency rout. Very small percentage of them actually marry an FSU woman as far as I know. It would be interesting to conduct a poll to find out how many WM on this forum are actually presently married to an FSU woman.

[holyoak]

Thanks for the welcome Sandro!

To answer your questions FP, I am writing to just one woman, even though I have my suspicions about her, because this is a new arena for me.  It has been a long time since I have has to put myself out on the open market, and so I'm taking the opportunity to look at how I present myself, to identify what I really have to offer to a partner, and to clarify what I am really looking for.  Don't get me wrong, this isn't a dry run; I am completely serious and want this to be real and work out.  But before I jump in the deep end and start mass mailing to cast a wider net, I want to allow myself the chance to make mistakes and learn from them; to polish my presentation a bit, if you will.

We met on a Russian singles site, and switched to personal e-mails after one exchange.  We have exchanged 8 more e-mails since.  Hasn't cost a dime so far.

In answer to the phone and Skype questions, I talked with her on the phone this morning for the first time.  A local Russian woman, Emma, was kind enough to let me call from her house (on my cell).   Emma  assisted with translations and phone etiquette, as we were calling a business during work hours.  Emma's daughter also listened in from Russia via Skype, so after the call I was able to ask them both for their opinions.  They noticed many things that I did not, and had some good advice, but both concluded that the woman I was calling sounded very nice and appears sincere.  They said it was not unusual to lack a cell phone and/or computer, and to take calls at work, which were things that seemed odd to me.  We also had the opportunity to discuss the challenges and pitfalls (and a bit about rewards) of East/West relationships.  It was great to get a frank assessment from two RW, and even to start to pick up on the way some stereotypes RW have, of AM and UW in this specific case, can show up in a real conversation or encounter.  If was a very interesting, memorable and educational (as well as very early) morning.

As to the generalizations, again, I'm more than okay with them (in general).  I was just looking for a light-hearted example to point out that generalizing may not just be useful, but nearly necessary, in discussions spanning cultural differences.  I also wanted an anology which allowed individuals to differ without being wrong, but still kept the focus on the usefulness of the info at hand.  I really wasn't trying to pander to the crowd, I had no idea the Feud was so popular and fondly remembered

As I was writing the above paragraph, I was reminded of how personal and value-driven this endeavor is, and how quickly this can affect a discussion.  This has got to be a tough forum to moderate, so my thanks to those who do, and thanks Faux Pas for your calm and rational, yet also both blunt and pointed posts.  IMHO, that is an ideal way to share info.

[Manny]

#3.  Supply and demand of women.  In general (see above) women who can wear heels, have goals and aspirations beyond finding a sugar daddy, and change a flat tire on their own are in relatively short supply here in the states. 

I don't expect too many Russian women will expect to change their own flat tyre.

 

[Shadow]

#1.  Lets be honest, the disproportionately hot factor got us all to take the first look.  Also i would like good-looking kids (makes their life easier), and beauty is hereditary.

After taking a good look in the mirror, I can say fortunately this is not true. Our kids look very good. 

[Jumper]

Welcome ~!

If you appreciate generalizations,
then despite your experience directly with local RW..and thier input.

I'd say generally it is quite odd for a person,  in the FSU to NOT have a mobile phone.

They are mostly born with one ..if you see one without it,
it's likely been surgically removed.
 

 back in 2006 mobile phone sales in Ukriane were  1.53 billion USD.

One service provider *kievstar* had about 21 million clients then..
and sales were up over 50% the following year
despite  competition and other service providers getting decent market shares as well...

To put that in perspective the population of Ukriane then was about 47 million.. so it was a reasonable statistic that almost all adults your age or younger had a cell,those without would be exceptions?
a few years later that isnt going to have gone down.
The same general % stats would apply to Russia or other countries of the FSU.


That said,
it is entirely plausdible she doesn't have a computer or cell..
and obviously your local RW spoke with her and may understand why she wouldn't have.
Overall not a big deal..some peolpe just  don't want one ,or dont feel the expense is worthy.


Since you stated she doesnt exhibit any red flags, or even yellow ones,
why would you feel its a 90% chance of being a scammer?

 just curious..
 

[Eduard]

with all my travels to Russia and Ukraine I am yet to meet ONE FSU woman without a cell phone, particularly in the last 2 or 3 years.

[FredC]

I thought the same thing about the cell phone comment until I re-read it. I did say at work. Which I can understand because I know that for security reason we are not allowed to have camera phones on the property. They do provide lockers at the entrance gate.

[holyoak]

Hi AJ.  Another yellow flag is a gmail account.  I would expect an FSU woman to have a .ru account.  An interesting detail of gmail accounts is that their headers are untraceable.  I think I might try to go the chat route next.  Just taking it slow and trying to figure out the ropes.  Thanks for all the input.

[I/O]

took a job that required four months away per year, ex-wifey found somebody more shiny

Any thoughts why a RW wouldn't do the same?

[Eduard]

Any thoughts why a RW wouldn't do the same?

based on my personal experience, a number of them would... 

[Lily]

#3.  Supply and demand of women.  In general (see above) women who can wear heels, have goals and aspirations beyond finding a sugar daddy, and change a flat tire on their own are in relatively short supply here in the states.  Demand for them is very high, and there is a ton of competition, but i'm not willing to settle for less.
#4.  Supply and demand of men.  In general (see above) Western men can provide a better marriage (measured by attentiveness, courtesy, restraint, opportunities) than FSU men.  I would like to meet a woman who desires theses things and appreciates them.
 

As a RW, I agree with these two reasons. I see a difference between Canadian and Russian men, and I don't think that I would be willing to live with a RM here. At least insofar I know them, although exceptions may happen. At the same time, they are the answer to your question, what makes a RW want to leave her friends and families, jobs, and their home countries.

As far as the culture is concerned, we are not leaving them, we take them with us as a wonderful and free of any customs charges baggage Russian culture is in our voices, features, gestures. Some RW are real ambassadors of Russian culture abroad. That's another advantage for the men who were blessed by our love  

Any thoughts why a RW wouldn't do the same?

Agree with Ed, in case a WM goes abroad wishing to upgrade himself in terms of quality of woman which he could get at home, he may find out that as soon as she is in the West and discovers her options here, she may fall for a more shiny man than her husband. If you won a competition for a fine woman, be ready to compete for her during all your life. Here is not Russia, sorry guys.

I would also like to welcome you here, holyoak. Have fun here, and good luck searching

Hi AJ.  Another yellow flag is a gmail account.  I would expect an FSU woman to have a .ru account.   

Come on..why? I used to have a mail.ru, a gmail, a hotmail, a yahoo.com account. At least as far as I could remember all of them

 

[Eduard]

Agree with Ed, in case a WM goes abroad wishing to upgrade himself in terms of quality of woman which he could get at home, he may find out that as soon as she is in the West and discovers her options here, she may fall for a more shiny man than her husband. If you won a competition for a fine woman, be ready to compete for her during all your life. Here is not Russia, sorry guys.

I wasn't really even referring to women who marry WM and looking to "upgrade" once in the west. I was talking about FSU women in general, including the ones living in the FSU and married to RM. There are cheaters among them as well as among Western women. Women, who are FSU residents also cheat.  Regretfully there are people (both women and men) who get bored with routine and look for sexual/romantic adventure on the side. Can you avoid marrying such a woman? In some cases yes, when a woman gives certain clues about her values, lifestyle, outlook on marriage and sex and this providing that there is no language barrier. In other cases you may come from the same background, see no indications of potential cheater spouse and yet, find out later in life that that's how she or he looks for stress relief and entertainment.
This is universal IMO and there is no particular ethnic group or nationality who holds exclusivity on this.

[holyoak]

Hi Lily, thanks for chiming in.  I agree the gmail account isn't a red flag,  but maybe just a yellow one.  That is why I mentioned it here, to get additional opinions to consider, and thank you for adding yours.

As to the questions as to why a second marriage wouldn't end the same way as the first, there are no gaurantees it wouldn't.  I would like to the think I learned some things the first time (money is not as inportant as time), but the reality is that the possibility cannot be eliminated.  I try to learn and move on.  Being afraid to try again b/c of what happened before is one way prevent a repeat, but not the way I choose to live.  I choose hope, not fear.

Thanks also Eduard for your input; I believe that success in LTRs is mainly about the values people hold.  So i 'm gonna take my time, learn the ropes and have some fun while I perfect and patent a foolproof Long Term Values and Desires Analysis & Evaluation Tester.  Do you think I should start with blood tests or handwriting samples?

@Shadow- beauty is in the muzzle of the be-sniffer.
@Manny-if we geta flat,  she better not expect me to get out of the car and get MY hair wet in all that raain!

[Eduard]

Thanks also Eduard for your input; I believe that success in LTRs is mainly about the values people hold.  So i 'm gonna take my time, learn the ropes and have some fun while I perfect and patent a foolproof Long Term Values and Desires Analysis & Evaluation Tester.  Do you think I should start with blood tests or handwriting samples?

haha, cute! But since you're gonna take your time anyway I suggest learn Russian language. Only a fluent Russian speaker can detect important nuances, red flags, etc. and make a judgement when it comes to values. Even then it's not a 100% proof, but it's a lot better than going into this completely blind. When I was a 17 year old teenager living in Moscow I was seduced by a gorgeous 28yo married mom, who liked to play with young boys while her pilot hubby was away on trips. She just felt lonely, needed attention and liked younger men/boys. I learned years later from one of my childhood friends who was 2 years younger than me, that she did the same with him once I left Russia. I guess she had a thing for 17 year old boys    Off course I wouldn't do that now, but at 17 I didn't really have charachter strength to say no to her. I also go through a lot of women's profiles every day, and I see a number of them who are married but "looking for some fun on the side". It is not as uncommon in the FSU as the MOB industry would have you believe.

[holyoak]

Это - очень хорошая идея, Эдуард! Это потребует некоторого времени и усилия.

[Lily]

Hi Lily, thanks for chiming in.  I agree the gmail account isn't a red flag,  but maybe just a yellow one.  That is why I mentioned it here, to get additional opinions to consider, and thank you for adding yours.
 

But I am still curious, why the gmail account is even a yellow flag  ???

Just the gmail.com, the mail.ru is a free publicly available resource. Anyone who can understand basic Russian language, could open a free account there while being in whatever part of earth herself (or himself).

[holyoak]

Hi Lily, I will try to asnwer your question.

Gmail is the only major mail service (that I know of) that makes it impossible to trace headers.  This could obviously just be a coincidence, but the style of reply is also of concern.  Always a new topic, never a simply reply.  The combination of theses two, coincidence or not, means no way to identify where in the world messages originate, so yellow flag.

P.S.  for those who wish to point out proxy-servers and other means of internet anonymity, IMHO it is must easier to sniff out a proxy than get through the elegantly simple scenario above.