Is this sexual harrassment?

[vwrw]

You don't believe your premise is a bit out of the ballpark? Emotional distress is an 'effect', not a 'cause'.

No, I do not believe that.
Yes, emotional distress is an effect, annoyances or indignity is the cause.

[GQBlues]

No, I do not believe that.
Yes, emotional distress is an effect, annoyances or indignity is the cause.

LOL.

Unfortunately, I can't sue Nancy Pelosi simply because she annoys the hell out of me...not yet anyway.

So we're back to square one. If Russians deem that a law against sexual harassment as defined in the west (US) should be judicially recognized in the FSU (Russia), then Russians, especially the women, need to make a strong(er) stand and establish broader women protection rights just as it did in the US (west).

A strong precedent must first take root to be fully recognized in their judicial system/process.

As it is today, it is lacking and hence sexual harassment, as defined in the west, does not exist in the FSU (Russia). But hopefully someday soon...

[OlgaH]

So we're back to square one. If Russians deem that a law against sexual harassment as defined in the west (US) should be judicially recognized in the FSU (Russia), then Russians, especially the women, need to make a strong(er) stand and establish broader women protection rights just as it did in the US (west).

Even if "the sexual harassment at work place" will be added at least as a subparagraph to the article 133 of the Criminal Code of RF there still will be a problem - a woman has to prove that sexual harassment happened. But how?

Back to that case when a judge of one of the regional courts of SP region made his/her ridiculous verdict: "If men did not woo women there would not be any child born". A 22 y.o. woman, employee of PR agency, "received" a proposal from her 47 y.o. boss to have sex with him during their out-of-town corporative party. She refused and the next day the boss fired her. According to that woman he always jokingly reminded his female employees that "during their meetings with the clients of their PR agency in their eyes always should shine a readiness to have the sex with the clients right on the office table". OK, she refused to have sex with her boss during that out-of-town corporative party, question is was she only one who refused or how many other female employees did not refuse. How many of them were or could be witnesses in her case? Sadly there is not so much information about that case

And I again agree with you "the women need to make a strong(er) stand", they should cooperate and not be afraid to talk about it publicly, to join the women organization, we do have them in Russia, problem is not so many women join those organization's membership and plus there is still a weak cooperation between the women organizations. What is that? Victim mentality? Ignorance? Satisfaction with the situation in general? All together? And also, when one woman try to resist and fight, but 10 women are not against to offer themselves for a career promotion, bonuses and so on or they are simply afraid, the things will remain the same for a long time. No talks, no problems.



 

[ML]

One married woman years ago told me of her solution.  She realized her new boss was eyeing her seriously and she suspected the proposal or demand was imminent.  She had a woman friend of sorts who was both looking for a job and open to a romance.  She helped this woman get a job in the office and let nature take its course.  All lived happily ever after.

[vwrw]

.

.....problem is not so many women join those organization's membership and plus there is still a weak cooperation between the women organizations. What is that? Victim mentality? Ignorance? Satisfaction with the situation in general? All together? .

 

What about  hopelessness or disbelief that the pervasive corruption of courts and other governmental branches can be overthrown by a women movement. The disbelief or hopelessness is also accompanied by the human tendency to bear a situation while the situation is bearable and a huge load of errands that women have to do daily. They just may have no time to join those organizations.

[OlgaH]

What about  hopelessness or disbelief that the pervasive corruption of courts and other governmental branches can be overthrown by a women movement. The disbelief or hopelessness is also accompanied by the human tendency to bear a situation while the situation is bearable and a huge load of errands that women have to do daily. They just may have no time to join those organizations.

The political achievements and legislation in the West was created and inspired by the Women’s Rights Movement. No, it was not "a kind uncle" who came and passed out of his tenderness of feeling "the Equal Employment Opportunity Act and Educational Equity Act" and also founded National Women’s Political Caucus for women. 

The phrase "I have no time" is very often accompanied by an envelope with money inside to speed the decision of a bureaucrat in Russia

Disbelief or hopelessness and tendency to bear a situation is typical for a victim mentality.  Position "I have no time to fight for my own rights" unfortunately will make no changes.   

[ML]

A related idea and question. 

Many men here have written that one of the reasons for looking to the FSU for a female mate is that western women are no longer feminine.

So, is it possible for FSU women to gain more human rights and be less subject to sexual harassment AND also remain feminine? 

Or once starting down (or up as the viewpoint may be) the slippery slope; there will be no stopping?

I remember some years back, Putin made some comments to idea that he was in favor or more (can't remember the words) for women . . . as long as their women actually remained women.

I also have heard from several FSU women that they are aghast at the idea that they would not receive compliments from men at work, etc. regarding their appearance, if the western rules were to take over.

Just wondering . . .

[vwrw]

I am inclined to think that sexual harassment does not foster femininity because the few women I know who worked under the threat of sexual harassment (they not necessarily were subject to sexual harassment, but they could foresee the possibility of sexual harassment), everyone of them camouflage their femininity as much as possible to diminish the possibility of sexual harassment. Therefore, I believe that outlawing sexual harassment would rather encourage women to be more feminine than discourage it.


When women say they do not mind receiving compliments from men at work, they mean compliments such as you look great or beautiful, this dress of yours is really nice, and similar one. They do NOT mean compliments of sexual nature. I do not know even one woman who would be aghast at the idea of NOT receiving compliments of sexual nature from men at work.

BTW, the fact that thinking about receiving compliments from men at work, women do not think about the offensive compliments of sexual nature indicates that men at work do not often say them.

[vwrw]

I remember some years back, Putin made some comments to idea that he was in favor or more (can't remember the words) for women . . . as long as their women actually remained women.

I know only one way to transform a woman into not woman. That is to cut her breasts and attach penis to her. Giving women equal opportunities and laws to protect their human rights do not change their gender.  AW are a great example, they remain women while enjoying all the protections and opportunities.

[BC]

Romance in the workplace is quite common.  No wonder when one considers the workaholic world.  Men as well as women get 'hit' on and those that do start a romance will likely break up over time causing tensions in the workplace, after all these days you can't really pick and choose where you will work in the corporate world. Animosity will fester in that environment, not to mention a good many who will see financial opportunity.

There is a fine line walking the cost/benefit tightrope that arguments for both sides present. No law is absolute, especially when it comes to sex. Such laws are drafted on the basis of providing more benefit than harm. On one hand, yes everyone should be free to work without intimidation or extortion - on the other employers should not necessarily be responsible for their employees private conduct whether at the workplace or after work hours.

Bottom line for me is that appointed or elected judges that have to rule in sexual harassment cases will do so in a most conservative 'go with the flow' manner instead of using their power to really decide on the basis of the facts.  They simply rule according to the book in their own interest and leave the aftermath up to appellate courts - a path which many defendants simply cannot afford to follow, thus give up and leave the room with their heads hanging from some plea agreement worked out in the background to get the issue off the table.

This is why I don't think Europe or many other parts of the world are affected that awful much.  Judges here don't really have a playbook to follow other than the law and the costs for litigation have not reached the level that appeals simply cannot be afforded whether wrong or right.  Lawyers have to be fed and politicians who mostly enjoy short terms serving the public (mostly lawyers themselves) concoct new laws to ensure their clan (and their own future) is abundantly rewarded with secure litigation and consulting opportunities.

It's not about right or wrong, its about business and profit.

http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2010/06/02/tiger-mistress-joslyn-james-claims-sexual-harassment-at-strip-cl/?synd=1

[GQBlues]

....And I again agree with you "the women need to make a strong(er) stand", they should cooperate and not be afraid to talk about it publicly, to join the women organization, we do have them in Russia, problem is not so many women join those organization's membership and plus there is still a weak cooperation between the women organizations. What is that? Victim mentality? Ignorance? Satisfaction with the situation in general? All together? And also, when one woman try to resist and fight, but 10 women are not against to offer themselves for a career promotion, bonuses and so on or they are simply afraid, the things will remain the same for a long time. No talks, no problems.

OlgaH-

I concede that turning this thing around in Russia will likely pose more obstacles than it did for AW in the US. Not that the US transition was easy either. There are still residual effects and social posturing on-going even today. You'll see scorn and rumblings of defiance towards women who sought their independence and self-worth by men who long for the long-lost Stepford prototypes. Further, Russian women, if they did in fact take a bold stance towards equality, need to realize they'll face monumental challenges and repurcussions that come along with it. The bad with the good.

From my perspective and understanding, and one from a very young and incoming immigrant, it took almost 2 US generations for women to get to a niche before they got the ball rolling with any semblance of a mometum at all. I think it all started post-WW II which began the Baby-Boomers. The US's socio-political landscape was, for almost 2 decades, faced with so much changes that its people became more boisterous, involved and pronounced. The Vietnam war, cold war, hippies, Kennedy assasinations, Post-war industrialization, Watergate crisis, etc..gave a lot of dissatisfaction and likely some government paranoia and 'anti' sentiment...and center to all of these is our Civil Rights movement.

I think women's liberation movement was caught in vacuum. The Civil Rights movement was not only about race, but it also became of gender AND sexual-orientation. It was a social domino effect. It wasn't too long ago that gay people were getting arrested in bathhouses in San Francisco (60s - still some residual issues today). From what I *think* and believe, a lot of the impetus for women's rights movement started in the late-60s and heavily toiled in the 70s. Mostly children of folks after the war. The 80s-90s gave rise to the new concept of women breaking through the glass ceiling...and eventually, political correctness...

There were a lot of sacrifices made. Machoism, John Wayne and the Marlboro Man didn't exactly gave it up without much of a fight either. But just as with any socio-political transition, it'll take a while to find and perfect its equilibrium. Even now, I admit there are times things sway a little too much to the other side, but at least today there's room enough for people to choose their own path.

This is just my opinion. You may take that with a grain of salt as I wasn't born in this country.

The challenges will be enormous, probably even more so in FSU, but every mile trekked is a mile closer to the destination.

That is, If they really want to pursue that path. I *think* an opportunity was lost during the Gorbachev/Yeltsin era were if there was ever a good time for women to had been heard the loudest, it was then. That's just IMO. Maybe you can chime in in what you think...

[mies]

What do you consider to be "harassment"?
1. Compliments at workplace?
2. Excessive or annoying compliments at workplace?
3. Hints that if a woman agrees to sexual relations she'll get something extra? Or that she'll be fired?

Because really I'm sure that first 3 are widespread all over the world, and the USA isn't different (watch your movies ).

I don't watch too many movies, but the office environment in US and in Ukraine is very different in that respect.

Can it be called a harassment?

you can easily google the legal definition of what constitutes a sexual harassment.

I second Boethius' opinions in this thread (as well as in other threads too).

[mies]

There has been only one case in the US that I know about where a murder trial took place and convicted a man of murder without a dead body and solely of circumstantial evidence. Ironically, that involved a MOB woman from Russia.

Beyond that Boethius, if there's no conviction, there is NO crime.

GQBlues, I am not a lawyer, so it is possible that my logic is flawed. Supposedly, there is a mutilated and skinned human body lying at the central street of the city. It is not known nor proven (yet) how this body got to the street, and who did it, and whether the body was already dead when it was deformed, or the person was murdered. There is no conviction, at this point, but there is a crime.
If the police could "close eyes" on this case, and never investigate nor prosecute the suspects, it will not make the event less of a crime. Or would it?

"The FSU is a MALE-dominated regional society." - I agree with this statement fully. This is probably what I dislike most in Ukraine.

[mies]

A related idea and question. 

Many men here have written that one of the reasons for looking to the FSU for a female mate is that western women are no longer feminine.

So, is it possible for FSU women to gain more human rights and be less subject to sexual harassment AND also remain feminine? 

Or once starting down (or up as the viewpoint may be) the slippery slope; there will be no stopping?

I remember some years back, Putin made some comments to idea that he was in favor or more (can't remember the words) for women . . . as long as their women actually remained women.

I also have heard from several FSU women that they are aghast at the idea that they would not receive compliments from men at work, etc. regarding their appearance, if the western rules were to take over.

Just wondering . . .

I am not sure that American women are less feminine than Russian women. They may wear stiletto hills and mini-skirts less often, and maybe use less makeup on a regular basis, but they spend more time in the gym, and overall - care much better about their bodies. I think western women look very feminine. Sometimes I think that WM explaining why they are looking for women abroad are approaching it same way as explaining gaps on resume. They cannot say real reasons, so they try to come up with plausible explanation, so that the reader will not be able to detect little "white lie".

[GQBlues]

GQBlues, I am not a lawyer, so it is possible that my logic is flawed.

That's OK neither am I.

Supposedly, there is a mutilated and skinned human body lying at the central street of the city. It is not known nor proven (yet) how this body got to the street, and who did it, and whether the body was already dead when it was deformed, or the person was murdered. There is no conviction, at this point, but there is a crime. If the police could "close eyes" on this case, and never investigate nor prosecute the suspects, it will not make the event less of a crime. Or would it?

For better or for worst, this is a dubious segment of our judicial process...the silly grey area..

Supposing a person falls out of a 100 story building. No one saw it happen, no clues, no evidence of foul play, no nothing....they just found the body splattered all over the ground. They can't convict anyone. Was there a crime?

How'about this....OJ Simpson was tried for the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman but was acquitted..so FWIW, no one knows, beyond resonable doubt, who killed those two...was there a crime in the eyes of the law? There are circumstantial reasons to believe so, but there's not enough evidence to convict the lone suspect beyond reasonable doubt to make a conviction.

When you fill up an application for a job and it asked you...

"Have you ever committed a crime? Felony? Misdemeanor?"

You'll answer 'NO' despite the fact you go over 10 miles over maximum speed limit everyday on your way to work but never got a ticket for speeding. I mean, you're not going to check 'yes' simply because YOU KNOW you speed all the time despite being lucky enough to not get a ticket. No conviction, no crime...

This is why it always asked..." Have you been convicted..."

Domestic violence / child molestation, etc...are another good examples...You don't report it to the authotrities, they can't make an arrest and a conviction...how can there be a crime? Same with rape. They estimate ( I don't know what they base this on) that the majority of rape cases goes unreported.

At the same token, with the birth of DNA testing, they are finding a whole lot of cases where a person who had served years of imprisonment, even death, for a crime they later found he could not have possibly been guilty of....

You'd be surprised at how many 'unsolved' cases involving dead bodies that got investigated but never got a conviction. Hundreds, maybe even thousands...murder, rape, burglaries, mugging cases, etc...goes unsolved.

Maybe a resident lawyer can give us a better argument/explanation of this area...

[mies]

Thank you for reply! This is indeed interesting.
I (as a non-lawyer) view conviction as a process of finding the "cause" of the "effect", when the "effect" or the process of creating this effect is forbidden by law.
If there is a rape (an effect, that resulted from the unlawful process), there is a victim, there is a crime. If the case is not reported by victim, or if the rapist is not found, this nevertheless does not make it less of a crime.
Conviction in this case, is just a procedure of establishing logical and factual connection between the effect, and the individual who caused this effect (crime), and announcing this "cause person" guilty.  

I think what you are describing is more a discrepancy between actual crime rates, and reported crime rates. But in both cases these are crimes. I agree, however, that if in a given country the law does not say "one cannot rape", then in this country rape will not constitute a crime. So I agree, that if in FSU there is no law dealing with sexual harassment, then it is not a crime. Yet, I think FSU has the legislation that does not allow forcing for sex (as quoted on the first page of this thread). True, this law is almost never enforced in case of employer-employee conflicts.  

[OlgaH]

OlgaH-

....
 I *think* an opportunity was lost during the Gorbachev/Yeltsin era were if there was ever a good time for women to had been heard the loudest, it was then. That's just IMO. Maybe you can chime in in what you think...

Though some independent women organization in Russia begun to revive during Gorbachev, the reference point of active registration of different women organization was 1990s. It was also the time when women organization very actively were organizing conferences, forums and seminars with participating of foreign experts. In 1992 the Women Unity of Russia organized a conference "Women of Russia: from discrimination to the equal opportunities"   In 1993 a political party "Women of Russia" got 8,13% of votes. In 1995 they simply did not have enough finances and did not pass 5% vote barrier. Despite of the fact that the party “Women of Russia” did not make it in 1995 their activity influenced the constitutional reforms in 1993, plus to 1995 there were 14% of women parliamentary candidates, in 1993 only 7%

Basic support of women population is very important for the women organizations' activity.
As in the previous article was mentioned "there are more than dozen of different organizations to assist women in their problems in Kiev but only few women come to those organizations" If during 9 years only one woman came with “the sexual harassment at work place” according to the article you really cannot make a social problem of just a few complains.  If a victim did not report a crime committed against the victim there is no registered crime and no victim, and no any data on the crime. And here I agree with GQBlues

Domestic violence / child molestation, etc...are another good examples...You don't report it to the authotrities, they can't make an arrest and a conviction...how can there be a crime? Same with rape. They estimate ( I don't know what they base this on) that the majority of rape cases goes unreported.

As the studies report the social pessimism, social and political inertness among female in Russia comes from the still dominated patriarchal stereotype on gender role, but the stereotype must be  changed by women first of all. Yes, it will take time and not one generation to make changes, but the most important is the activity of women in the situation's changing instead of crying into each other skirts in the kitchen and waiting for a fairy who will implement a law.

I think women's liberation movement was caught in vacuum.

I would rather say women's liberation movement was inspired by the Civil Rights movement, and the women active participation all over the country was determinant.

The challenges will be enormous, probably even more so in FSU, but every mile trekked is a mile closer to the destination.

Yes.


I remember three male bosses who were my direct bosses. I have never been sexually harassed by any of them. But I sued one in 2002 who did not want to pay me after I left his company. Honestly, I got more  pessimistic comments like "you will not win, it is just waste of time" and so on instead of support. Two girls from that company supported me and were my witnesses. I won without attorney, while the boss was represented by his attorney. I had only a new RF Labor Code that was implemented on February 1st 2002  in my hands. There were many employees who left his company not being paid before me, but I was the first who sued him. After a judge verdict he paid me more with all the compensations than he owed me on the day of my leaving. The consequences for him were - the Labor Department inspections, the Tax Department Inspections, plus a company in Moscow he had contract with also took interest in what was going on and after their inspection the Moscow company annulled some of the contract's items deprived his company of some services he performed. But the most important after me there were other employees who sued him. Actually after me his collective of employees totally changed. Even the "veterans" left his company.  Sad fact there still were people who would work for "money in envelope" that was not mentioned in the contracts and would sign his shady contract mostly due to their ignorance not realizing that in the future it would be problems for them. 

[GQBlues]

Thanks for that response OlgaH.

Right now I am wondering, and I seriously don't mean any offense with this, making this change will be almost impossible for FSUWs in the region. At least not in the near future.

FSUWs understands, and even enjoy, the benefits of being a sex object. That'll be the single biggest hurdle they'll need to cross and leave behind if they wish to make changes in their respective societies..

They'll recognize trading with the devil allows for no stipulations.