"The Russian Bride Business Is Dead" ? Really?

[Donhollio]

  I'd like to thank Dan and the mods here for allowing this topic to go unmolested in content. Seems at RUA posts get moved and deleted, yes they may be of topic, but show me any thread that doesn't leave the topic for a post or two. I have learned that RUA banned Moby, yet show him as being online.
 While I no nothing of internet marketing, and don't care if Mr.fi makes a buck from it, I do not like the Putinesk avoidence in him answering all questions. 
 Thank you Jooky and Shadow for shedding some light on why he needs those addresses so badly.

[Jumper]

Jooky-
It seems somethings been up for awhile actually ,i do not think i  was the only one to feel that way...


Well , as far as black helicopter theories go ,its seems as valid as any other?
and they are after all the fodder of internet fora


Since the somewhat recent various forum admin posts about  Adate/HRB/RLM etc, to determine what is or is not sham...

Tom and andrewfi's visit to HRB

HRB CEO showing up.

RWD and RUA patching things up.

implied IMBRA impending enforcement / consultations?  

Andrewfis report, its style ,content, and the handling of it

Planet Love match  sort of surfacing , it's name, and the overall business model it implies..

all seem quite coincidental .. ?


If this is the case-
despite the seemingly odd bedfellows , (actually they'd make perfect sense)
i'd find the whole enterprise  a good step ,and somewhat typical maneuvering for any business to avoid regulation, try  out a new biz model or idea, increase some traffic ,etc,etc

I'd find it cool, and rather interesting

If it is not the case,, and the stars just aligned on these various events and their timeline..,

well then nothing wrong with,
another beautiful theory ,beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts!?
(if facts ultimately come out to disprove it that is)

Looks like all the HRB / RLM girls are already in the database. If you're going to sign up now while the pickings are good sign up through my pyramid please. Tongue

I'd be glad to!!!  
but i already date someone from RLM (originally met elsewhere though) ,
guess i got left out of the pyramid  

ahh well there is still always Mary Kay

[andrewfi]

Indeed, Andrew is an excellent host and gentleman.  I have fond memories of a summer in Petersburg discussing the (then) state of the FSU bride business and where it might be heading.

Also, he saved me from spending a few days out on the street when I was stranded in Finland due to a glitch in the visa process!

Thanks Phil, your hospitality in Saint Petersburg over the years is well remembered. I learned a lot from you!

[JR]

Shadow, please check your PMS.

Shadow has PMS? Well that explains a lot!!!!

The OP's response to me suggesting that the use of a "disposable" email address to gain access to his "insightful information" should be no big deal tells me he's getting paid for those email addresses.

IMBRA is shaking the tree and some of the monkies are falling out)))

[GQBlues]

IMBRA is shaking the tree and some of the monkies are falling out)))

 

...though I doubt they'll wander too far off the tree.

[Mod3]

Also, please tell to implement one way hash encryption on stored passwords. I was able to retrieve my HRB password through this new site which means that passwords are not storely securely enough (the same as on your site, and you should change the system as well).

Perhaps you can send the proof of that to HRB or the new site ?
It would be the most courteous move.

[tim 360]

Really? Please show us the bad guys who "beat Manny with a stick" in this thread and particularly my post where I "jump on you", otherwise your statement is far from the truth, but it is not unusual.  

He's just playing a Drama Queen posturing.  No ones been beating him with a stick or bat.  Not needed--he does it to himself.

[tim 360]

Ahhhhh, the plot thickens.........

While there are several of the same people on the four boards I know of, it seems to just be flying over the heads of this crew that the reaction of their target audience is generally negative. The same questions get asked and the same ignoring of them or stutter-stepping occurs in attempting a cryptic, mysterious response worthy of inviting your friends to an Amway recruiting seminar.

Intuition tells me that the speed dial system is working and there's a lot of "Who knew they would take it this way?" and "Damn, I thought they would bite on this bait!" going on somewhere behind the scenes.

Setting the grapevine abuzz is part of a good marketing program, destroying what little remaining credibility you possessed in the process is generally not.

Yeah Ecocks I think you are right.    They are just inept at doing it.  It's all just hyped BS trying to get everyones attention.  Less of a "buzz" more like a plop in the john.  Here come the lipstick guys again trying to get it right....again.    Boring.

[tfcrew]

Shadow, please remove the link to my copyright work, you are a moderator on this forum and thus responsible for what appears.

As far as I know, Shadow is not a moderator.

Andrew, please read this part of the TOS:[Re 'Money making schemes'] In my opinion using an internet marketing list which offers $1 for each e-mail address counts as a fast money making scheme, not to mention the envisioned target of obtaining.
 

I posted this thread [not Andrew] and I do not know Andrew and am not a shill involved in any dating business enterprise.

[tim 360]

Jooky-
It seems somethings been up for awhile actually ,i do not think i  was the only one to feel that way...


Well , as far as black helicopter theories go ,its seems as valid as any other?
and they are after all the fodder of internet fora


Since the somewhat recent various forum admin posts about  Adate/HRB/RLM etc, to determine what is or is not sham...

Tom and andrewfi's visit to HRB

HRB CEO showing up.

RWD and RUA patching things up.

implied IMBRA impending enforcement / consultations? 

Andrewfis report, its style ,content, and the handling of it

Planet Love match  sort of surfacing , it's name, and the overall business model it implies..

all seem quite coincidental .. ?

If this is the case-
despite the seemingly odd bedfellows , (actually they'd make perfect sense)
i'd find the whole enterprise  a good step ,and somewhat typical maneuvering for any business to avoid regulation, try  out a new biz model or idea, increase some traffic ,etc,etc

I'd find it cool, and rather interesting

If it is not the case,, and the stars just aligned on these various events and their timeline..,

well then nothing wrong with,
another beautiful theory ,beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts!?
(if facts ultimately come out to disprove it that is)




I'd be glad to!!!  
but i already date someone from RLM (originally met elsewhere though) ,
guess i got left out of the pyramid  

ahh well there is still always Mary Kay

Getting more like the X-FILES and AREA 51 here.

 

[Jumper]

Getting more like the X-FILES and AREA 51 here

LOL! sure!!!
and why not?

wild speculation can be  entertaining ?
 

I certainly don't take it seriously..  and dont post anything i think would harm anyone's real bread and butter

 I do not think anyone is inept..certainly not andrewfi!
 and it is why this raised more questions than answers.
if played this way , i believe the intent by someone was there to do so..
a way to generate buzz..

a report with not much subtance that alludes to future revelations..
seems specifically intended to generate speculation and buzz?
so that speculation i believe is not only expected but wanted..
 
Hey ! there can be more than one black helicoptpr flying at once afterall..
it's a big sky , and with EC's share reported 25mil annually?
 (turbo really? I would like to know a few of those numbers as fact)
its a sky that can likely hold a few helicoptors safely
 


Andrewfi has had plenty of opportunity to refute jooky's or my proposed scenarios.. as basless or
amusing. (they might well be afterall?)
 
i understand he perhaps doesnt want ,or can't , devulge certain info now.
Lots of things i work on can't be released to the public until a specific time for many understandable reasons.
Its quite normal in most business.

 the crickets on that subject are deafening though.....



As a side note:
Does anyone  really think andrewfi's selection to visit HRB was entirely random?
Even Andrew doesn't claim that..i don't believe?
 You never found it odd that Tom and Andrew who wernt clients ,or dissatisfied clients, of HRB
got said invites? What possible motivation would HRB have to contact them regarding their business rep?
or vice versa?
From them possibly scolding HRB's business model on a forum? Can't imagine how many choices they would have of actual customers instead? Wouldn't it have made HRB more practical sense and credibilty to take disgruntled clients to allow them a real indepth look at the situation in fla (of course most understood the real shaningans were in the FSU affiliates and only whether HRB knew about it was the "crux" of the complaints?)

This is not  a new question.. but seems related.

I will admit my own bias, i was  a HRB client and often harsh critic .(i prefer the term realist)
 Trouble is i'm not disgruntled at all, because it is exactly as expected . I paid my dues knowing full well the scenario, accepted it and still do. It's understood i don't represent the real profit for them, the men who chat for fun and fantasy do.
If IMBRA or other factors change that, you can bet an *industry* that makes millions isn't going to just pack it in.
What planet is everyone from?
Those big players in the industry,  will adapt and find rounda'bouts one way or another. Who in their right mind could blame them?
Hopefully the new methods allow them to remain profitable ,yet provide a more transparent experience for the perhaps much smaller percent of their customers who might be serious.

While the market may shrink,
it  remains in significant quantity for big business to be interested  regardless restrictions..

Look at sites like *agegapsingles*com
I real website that I doubt will shut down anytime soon 
 :evil:

 
 



tfcrew -
Shadow is indeed a moderator here, in various sections.

moderators here often have  designated sections ,
but when other mods are busy certainly watch other areas of the board as well.

[Jooky]

Perhaps you can send the proof of that to HRB or the new site ?
It would be the most courteous move.

It's simple for them to see actually.

Their setup allows for users to retrieve an unencrypted password. That means that the password can be unencrypted from the stored database. It may still be encrypted using a key, which makes it difficult, but not impossible, to hack into. If a hacker gets a hold of or deciphers your encryption key, your entire database can be compromised.

This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.freevbcode.com/ShowCode.asp?ID=972

The more secure method of storing passwords is with one way encryption. With one way hash encryption (cryptographic) encryption, passwords can be reset, but not retrieved.

I strongly recommend that they switch to this type of a system (so Andrew if you're paying attention to my posts, please do heed this). A huge database that potentially keeps credit card info (I don't know if they do, but I recommend that they don't and allow their merchant to handle information storage while they store only customers by ID) is a target for hackers.

[Admin]

Jooky-
It seems somethings been up for awhile actually ,i do not think i  was the only one to feel that way...


Well , as far as black helicopter theories go ,its seems as valid as any other?
and they are after all the fodder of internet fora


Since the somewhat recent various forum admin posts about  Adate/HRB/RLM etc, to determine what is or is not sham...

Tom and andrewfi's visit to HRB

HRB CEO showing up.

RWD and RUA patching things up.

implied IMBRA impending enforcement / consultations?  

Andrewfis report, its style ,content, and the handling of it

Planet Love match  sort of surfacing , it's name, and the overall business model it implies..

all seem quite coincidental .. ?


If this is the case-
despite the seemingly odd bedfellows , (actually they'd make perfect sense)
i'd find the whole enterprise  a good step ,and somewhat typical maneuvering for any business to avoid regulation, try  out a new biz model or idea, increase some traffic ,etc,etc

I'd find it cool, and rather interesting

If it is not the case,, and the stars just aligned on these various events and their timeline..,

well then nothing wrong with,
another beautiful theory ,beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts!?
(if facts ultimately come out to disprove it that is)




I'd be glad to!!!  
but i already date someone from RLM (originally met elsewhere though) ,
guess i got left out of the pyramid  

ahh well there is still always Mary Kay

AJ (et al),

It pains me to interrupt a perfectly good conspiracy theory, but I will address a couple of items (just for grins and giggles since the conspiracy theorists will undoubtedly remain unsated):

>>RWD and RUA patching things up.<<

True enough - though we have a long-standing history of trying to reconcile with ANYONE who is willing to make a positive contribution and the list of members and alternate sites that have been invited to return to RWD is quite long. Further, while I've managed to patch things up with RUA, at the same time, I have (it seems) managed to create a rift with Russian Meeting Place (see here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12912.msg254359#msg254359), so you see it is not all one way.

>>implied IMBRA impending enforcement / consultations?<<

In terms of "consultations" I am not sure if you mean the meetings I've had with Tahirih? If so, those started more than 18 months ago when I was developing the "IMBRA Compliance Kit" (published in another topic at RWD - too lazy to search for it right now), and they continued more recently with publications by Tahirih pertaining to the recently released IMBRA Information Pamphlet (also published in another topic here at RWD recently).

Beyond that, there does seem to be some ratcheting up of the rhetoric as can be seen in the article I posted today now branding all agencies as "traffickers." (here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12913.0)

Offered FWIW . . . .

And now back to the latest twist on the conspiracy theory(ies) . . . .

- Dan

[Jumper]

Dan
get well !!

and hope you caught the  part of my muiltiple posts..
that black helicopter theories are  mostly amusment ,and while  fun to make up theories and wear tin foil hats...
 

another beautiful theory ,beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts!?

would be just fine too..!!


as far as IMBRA --
hmm i was referring to some principles of the various bigger agencies meeting or consulting about the expected enforcement ..?
(I thought HRB's CEO had mentioned that.in some thread,but it could just as easily have been the tin foil hat tipping)

Desptie all the rhetoric ,i'd always wish Andrewfi or anyone else good luck in thier venture..


 

[Jochan]

Yes I would say that Ukraine scam business is dead .Russia its not washed out like Ukraine only western Russia is washed out moscow and St Peterburg .As for Urals and Siberiya girls are honest and no scams because no foreigners.

I recomend every body to go to Russia or Uzbekistan too look for a bride.

If you want to know the truth ,please contact me at
iaroslav789@gmail.com

or my uhrl

www.bestasianbrides.net
www.uzbekdate.vpweb.ca

[Admin]

Jochan,

Your account has been re-classified as a Commercial Member. Please read these links:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2034.0 - for Commercial Members

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1.0 - RWD Terms of Service with particular attention paid to Commercial Member activities.

Also, you may want to introduce yourself to our members in the Introduction forum (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=41.0). While introducing yourself, I am sure our members would like to know more about your comment pertaining to "Ukraine scam business" - particularly since you, yourself, are posting from a Ukrainian IP.

Thanks,

- Dan

[Admin]

Back on-topic, I thought I might add a few thoughts of my own on the topic. Consider the following facts:

Agency Decline:

* Attached is an early, and VERY influential, report on the topic of Mail Order Brides by Marie Claire-Belleau, a Harvard-trained lawyer. The report is long at more than 200 pages, but it laid the foundation for many MANY of the feminist analyses that have followed, as well as some of the legislation we have seen here in the US. In it, you will find (among other things) reference to the number of agencies she found in June 2000 listed at GoodWife.com. Those numbers are:

 - 97 Asian agencies
 - 54 Latin American agencies
 - 150 FSU agencies
 - 39 multi-ethnic agencies
 - Total: 340 agencies

* Today, the numbers look like this:

 - 45 Asian agencies
 - 38 Latin American agencies
 - 85 FSU agencies
 - 35 other service providers
 - Total: 203 agencies

* The obvious conclusion is that there are significantly fewer NUMBERS of agencies today than there were a decade ago.

* Loads of factors influence this decline. Among them:

- Consider our collective opinion of agency owners (IMB owners) in terms of their integrity in comparison to other professions, as shown in this 2006 poll -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3322.0. A quick summary is that agency owners rank LAST among all listed professions - below Labor union leaders, Advertisers and even below Car Salesmen.

- Since 2000 there has been an enormous increase in internet penetration and use in FSU countries. Where at one time a lady's access to the internet was through a local agency in the FSU, that era is long gone.

- Popularity of Russian social networking and dating sites is siphoning off traffic that formerly went to agency sites. I have no hard stats on this, only common sense and the knowledge of how rapidly social networking sites on all countries have experienced explosive growth in the past several years.

 - Lack of professionalism in the IMBs. In the attached report, Belleau cites an earlier work that concluded most owners of agencies were those who had been involved in a cross-cultural marriage themselves. GAO interviewed me in January '08, I rejected their notion that there exists any form of an organized "MOB Industry", and characterized it like a guy picking up shells on a beach in Brazil, and someone asks if he would sell one of the shells he picked up. The guy soon realizes that if he picks up those shells and polishes them a bit and puts them on top of a table on that beach with maybe a sign or two pointing to his table, he can sell quite a few of those shells. In effect, this is the exact same way in which many (most?, all?) IMB's came into being.

Legislative Ratcheting:

* There are the relevant laws:

 - War Brides Act of 1945 - allowed returning soldiers to repatriate with their foreign-born spouses
 - Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 - removed racial restrictions
 - Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 - established annual visa limitations
 - Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendments (1986) - created conditional residence due to marriage fraud
 - Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 - allows for self-petition of the immigrant spouse
 - Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 - first act aimed at MOB businesses, requires agencies to disclose information to foreign fiances/spouses with enforcement provisions of fines
 - Battered Immigrant Women Protection Act of 2000 - created financial grants for immigrant women/children abused by their US sponsors
 - International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005 - defines IMB requirements and extra-territorial elements of US law

* Whereas the original provisions that led to current K-visa legislation was aimed at facilitating cross-cultural unions, the mid-term legislation was enacted to protect the US citizen, and is now (since 1994) distinctly in favor of protecting the foreign-born spouse. To accomplish the latter, the focus is on creating the documentation and record-keeping burden on the part of the agencies/IMBs with attendant legal liabilities for failure to comply.

OK - will have more to add later.

- Dan

[Admin]

I left out a REALLY important document in my earlier post - while not representing new legislation, the attached 2006 GAO document gives official US government sanction to the nexus of the "Mail Order Bride" industry to international sex trafficking.

- Dan

[Ade]

I just posted this over on RUA.

There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted something like this over there as it's possible it was deleted or removed or is perhaps in the hidden "500 post" sub-forum which I don't have access to - there seems to be a good amount of traffic in the hidden forum going by the increase in the total number of posts on RUA that cannot be seen in the other sub-forums (that's a Wiz statistic fwiw).

[Manny]

I just posted this over on RUA.

There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted something like this over there as it's possible it was deleted or removed or is perhaps in the hidden "500 post" sub-forum which I don't have access to - there seems to be a good amount of traffic in the hidden forum going by the increase in the total number of posts on RUA that cannot be seen in the other sub-forums (that's a Wiz statistic fwiw).

As I said to you at RUA Ade, It depends which rumour you listen to. A couple of weeks ago it was HRB, this week the revised version I heard was AFA. A couple of months ago a few one post wonders were trolling the net claiming RWD had been bought by Anastasia you might recall. Most of these rumours can be traced back to a certain ancient Greek who is banned from most sites and spends most of his days pecking at his keyboard, in his tinfoil hat, making stuff like this up for fun.

Don't believe everything you hear.

[Ade]

As I said to you at RUA Ade, It depends which rumour you listen to. A couple of weeks ago it was HRB, this week the revised version I heard was AFA. A couple of months ago a few one post wonders were trolling the net claiming RWD had been bought by Anastasia you might recall. Most of these rumours can be traced back to a certain ancient Greek who is banned from most sites and spends most of his days pecking at his keyboard, in his tinfoil hat, making stuff like this up for fun.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Ah, but still no explicit denial of course. But it seems I was a little off in some of the details though and someone kindly pointed that out to me; it looks as though you are somehow affiliated with AFA these days. True or not? Is Andrew also somehow linked into this with you in some way? It's fairly obvious why I ask and what the relevance is to Andy's report isn't it?

[Daveman]

Well, this thread has been highly entertaining.

Granted, some aspects of the informational dissemination tactic are initiatory of wanton conspiracy theories.  The theories are fascinating though the topic itself has little substance relating to topic title.

IMBRA (IMO), in its current form, is ridiculous, lacks any real connection to reality, and is nothing more than a "feel good" type artifice to assuage the squeaking of some rather noisy wheels. Still, it has no real negative consequence other than being a pesky thorn in the side of the process.  

The best suggestion, I thought, was to get on the ball and petition/promote change to where the concept of protecting women who may be paced in danger can be successful to a more rational and meaningful degree while moving away from the realm of the idiotic placation or even guised support of what could be nefarious motives for the impetus.

Other changes (decreases) in the "industry", again IMO, are purely common sense, and have been listed in this thread.  

I would like to see a discussion of the actual content of the report based on the potential merits/demerits of the actual information/speculation/extrapolation contained therein.

There are unanswered "questions" about the dissemination which will always lead to speculative/extrapolative analyses -- which are indeed plausible and in the end could prove true --- so what about the content?  A couple who have read it have made some comments.  Is there anything new which could/would not be attributed to the natural business life cycle?

[Gator]

I would like to see a discussion of the actual content of the report based on the potential merits/demerits of the actual information/speculation/extrapolation contained therein....... so what about the content?  A couple who have read it have made some comments.  Is there anything new which could/would not be attributed to the natural business life cycle?

Yes, some of us were interested in content and made substantive comments to Andrew.  Alas, Andrew ignored such and focused instead on conspiracy allegations.   

Over the years I have noticed that a number of RWD men become energized by anything that resembles a conspiracy.   Maybe that is a key reason explaining their interest in RW.  The courting of RW can run a obstacle course of intrigue and deceit,  whether real or imagined.  And when we finally begin to know a RW, we discover that the RW has evolved as a naturally skeptical breed of humans.

Regarding content, Jooky et al have made relevant observations in other threads about the changing nature of the marriage agency business.

[Bruno]

In it, you will find (among other things) reference to the number of agencies she found in June 2000 listed at GoodWife.com. Those numbers are:

 - 97 Asian agencies
 - 54 Latin American agencies
 - 150 FSU agencies
 - 39 multi-ethnic agencies
 - Total: 340 agencies

* Today, the numbers look like this:

 - 45 Asian agencies
 - 38 Latin American agencies
 - 85 FSU agencies
 - 35 other service providers
 - Total: 203 agencies

* The obvious conclusion is that there are significantly fewer NUMBERS of agencies today than there were a decade ago.

For me, "the obvious conclusion is that there are significantly fewer NUMBERS of agencies today" listed in GoodWife.com "than there were a decade ago."

In fact, as today, you have agency listed who don't exist anymore ( by example, "1000 of Single Russian Women", "Pretty Russian Women" or "Tver Angels" from Richard )... at the other end, there is plenty of other site not listed there...

For have a valid directory, you need somebody for maintain and check your database... a minimum is a monthly check for see if a site is always actif and continuous check for new one...

By example, the site http://www.russianbridesagency.com/ is not listed... to my actual knowledge, they have the biggest database of FSU women :

On this marriage dating site you can meet 177869 single women seeking men: 111702 Russian brides, 41628 Ukrainian girls, 11320 Belarus women, 13219 other Eastern European ladies.

These quote from their site is interesting too... a lot of paper related to MOB business are based on 1995 data, saying that 100000 to 150000 women are seeking foreign men... recent article cite the decline of the amount of ladies... but here, a single site, list over 177k FSU women...

A last thing, the site cited for example is similar to the one for who you have ask info via PM... in this case, it is a russian group "D&M Inc" with office in Moscow and US ( list of site owned : http://www.datingandmatchmakinginc.com/dmsite_30Our-sites.html )... if you are curious, download the pdf at http://www.datingandmatchmakinginc.com/brochure_en.pdf ... page 5, left side... the graph with the title "USA internet Dating market 2001 to 2008" is very interesting... seem that the business is not dead...

What really happen is that MOB is becoming a real industry... that the street corner shop die slowly and are replaced by huge group who are like supermarket...

About your Goodwife listing, if you wish, i can use some of my time for check the already listed site and make a list of the dead one... later, i can seek new sites ( and maybe you will need a section "corporation" for the big beast )... this will make your listing more accurate... of course, i can start the job but you will need somebody to maintain the listing after...

And please, never use the term "obvious conclusion" when something is based on old and incorrect data... it is the same flawed logic who have lead to thing like the IMBRA...

[Manny]

SJ, you edited incorrectly; some of the quote you created above features words that I didn't write. In any event, I think your query was answered satisfactorily on RUA.