"The Russian Bride Business Is Dead" ? Really?

[Admin]

Dan, I understand your concerns about derailing a thread like this but, honestly, isn't the whole topic, at least the original one, based on smoke and mirrors and a "report" with extremely little substance? It's fairly obvious that the MOB business is not dead in the FSU. It's evolving for sure and has been for ages, but that has little to do with IMBRA and more to do with FSUW with options, access and information.

Now, if you are discussing the real issues of IMBRA and MOB legislation in the US and possibly future EU legislation and how these will play out for Joe Average, then fine, but IMO those have little to do with Andrew's "report" and the death of anything.

SJ,

For my part - I am putting aside the hyperbole and tangential issues and trying to focus solely on the issues raised. In that regard, I think there is merit and value in a critical debate of the points. I've added a number of cited references that (I believe) tend to support the argument that the agency/IMB business model used for the past decade is changing, and will likely change much more due to both legislation and technology.

Would you concur?

- Dan

[Admin]

My mistake, i have mix your "Council of Europe" with the "European Council"... well, your "Council of Europe" is more a organization for promote Democracy and Human right... these organization have no power for vote any laws ( like the UN General Assembly with resolutions/recommendations who are not binding on the members )... On the other side, the European Council is the administration who prepare law to be voted at the European Parlement, enforced by the European commission in the European Union...

The only thing that the "Council of Europe" can enforce is the application of the European Convention on Human Rights ( for country who have sign it ) who is not the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" ( United Nation ) who was sign by a lot more country... and as 2010, the European Court of Human Rights ( part of the Council of Europe ) have a backlog who will take 46 years to clear... not really a good working organisation !!!

And yes, some are confused... the "Council of Europe" is about the European continent... the "European Coucil" is about the "European Union"...

IMBRA was voted by the United States of America and not the UN... if something similar to IMBRA can be voted in the European Union, it will not be writed by the "Council of Europe" but by the "European Council"...

Bruno,

Yes, I knew from your post you had confused the two - and I also knew that it is common for people to be confused about the Council of Europe and their mission and role in European law-making. My post back to you was just to joke with you a little bit, and to provide you links to see the source of the articles.

In terms of the Council of Europe, it is worth noting that 47 European countries participate, and both Russia and Ukraine are among the active participants. In fact, they have adopted the Russian language as one of their "working language," with English and French being their "official languages."

Just FYI

- Dan

[Bruno]

In terms of the Council of Europe, it is worth noting that 47 European countries participate, and both Russia and Ukraine are among the active participants. In fact, they have adopted the Russian language as one of their "working language," with English and French being their "official languages."

What is the use of something who have not the power to enforce their view or make laws ? The council of Europe is dying financialy too ... and their offices in the member states close one after the other...

http://www.lalsace.fr/fr/france-monde/article/3340157,218/Reduction-drastique-des-activites-a-Strasbourg.html

[Vinnvinny]

For my part - I am putting aside the hyperbole and tangential issues and trying to focus solely on the issues raised. In that regard, I think there is merit and value in a critical debate of the points. I've added a number of cited references that (I believe) tend to support the argument that the agency/IMB business model used for the past decade is changing, and will likely change much more due to both legislation and technology.

Dan: Who are you expecting to take part in a critical debate? Elsewhere, with the limited exception of their ‘management team’, then you will find that there are very few contributors that agree with Andrew’s synopsis of the future of the MOB. I myself have asked questions, requested clarifications and provided alternative opinions and the response from Andrew has either been to ignore or insult me and take advantage of the ‘window to reply opportunity’ by inserting more back links to his project. Whilst that stance is taken then you aren’t going to see much critical debate because the residual membership by and large all agree with each other. I can see that the situation is very similar here.

Yes of course USA based web chat agencies have recognised the need to change and if they don’t then they may be heading for the life support machine. But, every business in every sector constantly need to change .. this is not news this is plain old commercial fact.

Nobody should be under any illusion, Andrew’s report is about creating web traffic and rankings … it isn’t about debating it's content, if it was then we would be already doing so.

[Admin]

Dan: Who are you expecting to take part in a critical debate? Elsewhere, with the limited exception of their ‘management team’, then you will find that there are very few contributors that agree with Andrew’s synopsis of the future of the MOB. I myself have asked questions, requested clarifications and provided alternative opinions and the response from Andrew has either been to ignore or insult me and take advantage of the ‘window to reply opportunity’ by inserting more back links to his project. Whilst that stance is taken then you aren’t going to see much critical debate because the residual membership by and large all agree with each other. I can see that the situation is very similar here.

Yes of course USA based web chat agencies have recognised the need to change and if they don’t then they may be heading for the life support machine. But, every business in every sector constantly need to change .. this is not news this is plain old commercial fact.

Nobody should be under any illusion, Andrew’s report is about creating web traffic and rankings … it isn’t about debating it's content, if it was then we would be already doing so.

Vinnvinny,

>>Who are you expecting to take part in a critical debate?<<

Anyone who has an interest.

I recall a few years ago an issue was raised at Planet-Love in which I had stumbled onto a ruse by an agency owner that was being foisted on the men using his service - many of the were PL members. Reactions by many (most?) of the PL members to the knowledge they were being deceived by this agency owner were a bit surprising to me. In the end, the conclusion THEY reached is that a deception or two here and there is not a big deal to them, and really the primary (maybe even ONLY) thing that mattered to most is whether the agency owner was able to provide them introductions to a large pool of ladies. Everything else, for them, was *relatively* unimportant.

Similarly, as I have owned and operated these sites over the years, I've found that VERY few people give a rat's a** about the bickering and sniping that goes on between owners of forum sites or between owners of agencies (witness the pissing match we had a few years ago between Tver Angels and LifetimePartners - among others). For most of our members, they couldn't care less - and I understand that.

The reason this topic interests me is several-fold. For one, I work with these agencies regularly and have been afforded the opportunity to get to know their owners just a bit. Naturally, there are those who I like more than others. I am *extremely* careful about making any public comment because . . . imagine if I came out and made the proclamation that I really enjoy my conversations with the CEO of HRB or the President of Anastasia? Simply based on the general perception (a/k/a 'tribal knowledge') of the membership, ANY association that ANYONE has with agencies seen by the membership as corrupt casts aspersions by association. Nonetheless, I am aware of some of the plans and intentions of some of the agency owners (to some level) and WHY they are taking a direction. The topic, therefore, holds that interest for me.

The other reason it holds an interest is that I am, as you can probably tell, not a fan of IMBRA and similar legislation. My approach is a bit different than some, I guess, in that I want to fully understand the IMBRA author's concerns, and I sincerely feel some of them are valid and warrant redress. Too, I believe that IMBRA affects individuals - the constituency of RWD - just as it affects agency/IMB owners. If there had been unreasonable restrictions to me being able to pursue a relationship with a partner anywhere in the world (when I was active in the pursuit), I would have fought vigorously to yank down those barriers. I have made the effort to meet with TJC on multiple occasions and on multiple topics. I very much respect the people in the organization and believe them to be highly intelligent and NOT entirely unreasonable. Their organization has a Mission, and it is a mission that I am able to get behind - which does NOT mean I support IMBRA. You see, to me this is not a simple black-and-white issue that can be resolved in a matter of a few meetings or with a singular action. It is a process that involves carefully understanding the other party and their rationale - AND - it involves crafting a counter-argument that meets, or exceeds, the meritorious arguments assembled by a highly talented and intelligent team on the other side of the debate. The legislative terrain interests me - though I suspect it is of zero interest to many of our readers - which could turn to their peril, unfortunately.

Lastly, the part that interests me - as in, it motivates me to 'set the record straight' is when I see such thoroughly despicable articles as the one upthread that brands me - and you - and every male member of RWD - as a necrophiliac. That is only one such article - there are others - perhaps not quite so sensational in their claims, but not far off. Vinnvinny - have you ever had sex with a corpse? Do you want to have sex with a corpse? While I know from your posts you have a terrific sense of humor and like most rational people, will laugh-off the suggestion that you might be a necrophiliac - after being labeled with such tags for some years, I can tell you, for me, it does irritate me now.

Does that answer your question as to who I think may be interested - and why? Mostly, it addresses MY interest in the topic - though fully recognizing most others are likely to care far less.

- Dan

PS - I am honestly not sure how, if at all, this (my reply) ties into Andrew's report. If he cares to address that, he has posted recently and is welcome.

[Muzh]

Lastly, the part that interests me - as in, it motivates me to 'set the record straight' is when I see such thoroughly despicable articles as the one upthread that brands me - and you - and every male member of RWD - as a necrophiliac. That is only one such article - there are others - perhaps not quite so sensational in their claims, but not far off. Vinnvinny - have you ever had sex with a corpse? Do you want to have sex with a corpse? While I know from your posts you have a terrific sense of humor and like most rational people, will laugh-off the suggestion that you might be a necrophiliac - after being labeled with such tags for some years, I can tell you, for me, it does irritate me now.

Does that answer your question as to who I think may be interested - and why? Mostly, it addresses MY interest in the topic - though fully recognizing most others are likely to care far less.

- Dan

Oh Jesus. Dan, I hope you are not resurrecting the old debate of having sex with a dead horse that went for years on the old RWL.

All kidding aside, I am also interested in debating this IMBRA topic which can be divided into subcategories. However, Andrew's report is like having economists debating world currency based on a National Equire article that stated a UFO was found carrying greenbacks.

That clip on Today Show was a good start to get attention to the industry. It was mentioned that due to the economic downturn men are turning to foreign women to start a family. What one has to do with the other? Good conversation topic. Also, the industry was NOT demonized, which is a great start.

As Vinny said, Andrew was asked repeatedly by many to back his rumors and everytime he retorted to insults evading the questions. What does that tell you? I smell a snake oil salesman.

[Vinnvinny]

Ok Dan, lets cover the sex with corpse first. As far as I am aware I haven’t indulged, although it has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that I might as well have been. With regards to my plans for the future in this genre, it’s not my dream.

As for what extreme views others may think of me then you are right, I couldn’t care a less. My guess is that for most other serious guys then they will think similar. Guys who fantasise about 20 yo Sveta from Sevastopol might think twice and take up stamp collecting as an alternative hobby.

Let’s get a serious debate going then, I’ll start:

The Russian Bride business can be divided into many areas but I believe the following are the principle 4:

Type A – ‘Pay as you play’
These will be typically USA based and has many hot ladies apparently searching for much older guys. They will typically attract the type of guy who will never get on a plane but buys into the dreams that young smoking hot chix have an interest in him. The fact that he pays for the time he uses opens the entire model direct fraudulent practice. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, most definitely.

Type B – ‘Pay once then play’
These will be where you pay a set monthly amount but contact and exchange of information is unlimited. They aren’t perfect of course but the incentives to commit direct fraud have been removed. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, possibly it will scare way the less than serious guys but I doubt if it will stop guys who are determined to travel to the FSU and meet a lady.

Type C – ‘Free but pay for additional privileges’
The leading example here would be Mamba. It’s free to use but you can opt to pay for addition privileges that can make search and communication a little more easier. There is no direct fraud. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, no.

Type D – ‘Marriage Agencies’
These are almost entirely FSU owned and based and can range from the good to the bad to the ugly. WM need sites like this one to sort the wheat from the chaff. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, no.

As you know, IMBRA is only relative to American men and has no relevance to guys from the rest of the world. I can’t quote you figures and percentages and I cant discuss outside Ukraine but, having been to that country more than 40 times in less than 3 years, then I know for a fact that the ‘WM seeking Ukraine bride brigade’ on the ground represent many nationalities.
 
It would appear that the writing is on the wall for type A. As for the other types then my view is nothing much will change from what is has been for the past 12 months. As for IMBRA type legislation infiltrating down to the rest of the world then it may do but IMO not for a long time. And what if it does? Here in Europe then I think we are more used to this type of legislation and we don’t quite hang on to the notion of ‘freedom’ as Americans seem to do. That’s not a criticism, just a fact. If enhanced IMBRA laws were introduced to the UK tomorrow then I wouldn’t have a problem doing whatever it is I would have to do .. fingerprints, criminal record check etc. I think many ‘serious’ guys over this way would feel the same.

So …..

New legislation might sour some of the market for some of the men … men who probably would never get airborne anyway. As for the rest then sure there will be changes, there always has been and always will be. Is the Russian bride business dead? I think not. Perhaps you or someone else would like to tread where Andrew has (so far) refused to?

[Admin]

Oh Jesus. Dan, I hope you are not resurrecting the old debate of having sex with a dead horse that went for years on the old RWL.

All kidding aside, I am also interested in debating this IMBRA topic which can be divided into subcategories. However, Andrew's report is like having economists debating world currency based on a National Equire article that stated a UFO was found carrying greenbacks.

That clip on Today Show was a good start to get attention to the industry. It was mentioned that due to the economic downturn men are turning to foreign women to start a family. What one has to do with the other? Good conversation topic. Also, the industry was NOT demonized, which is a great start.

As Vinny said, Andrew was asked repeatedly by many to back his rumors and everytime he retorted to insults evading the questions. What does that tell you? I smell a snake oil salesman.

>>Oh Jesus. Dan, I hope you are not resurrecting the old debate of having sex with a dead horse that went for years on the old RWL.<<

 


I posted something here quite a while back about the "dead horse sex" series of posts from RWL. I thought I was the only one around who still remembered that episode.

Thanks for the laugh.

In terms of the OP and Andrew's report - it is enough (for me) that it raised the topics and if there is any interest, those topics are open for challenge and debate. Of course, that is always the case, and I do not really care if it was Andrew's report that spawned the current debate or not.

FWIW

- Dan

[Admin]

Ok Dan, lets cover the sex with corpse first. As far as I am aware I haven’t indulged, although it has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that I might as well have been. With regards to my plans for the future in this genre, it’s not my dream.

As for what extreme views others may think of me then you are right, I couldn’t care a less. My guess is that for most other serious guys then they will think similar. Guys who fantasise about 20 yo Sveta from Sevastopol might think twice and take up stamp collecting as an alternative hobby.

Let’s get a serious debate going then, I’ll start:

The Russian Bride business can be divided into many areas but I believe the following are the principle 4:

Type A – ‘Pay as you play’
These will be typically USA based and has many hot ladies apparently searching for much older guys. They will typically attract the type of guy who will never get on a plane but buys into the dreams that young smoking hot chix have an interest in him. The fact that he pays for the time he uses opens the entire model direct fraudulent practice. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, most definitely.

Type B – ‘Pay once then play’
These will be where you pay a set monthly amount but contact and exchange of information is unlimited. They aren’t perfect of course but the incentives to commit direct fraud have been removed. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, possibly it will scare way the less than serious guys but I doubt if it will stop guys who are determined to travel to the FSU and meet a lady.

Type C – ‘Free but pay for additional privileges’
The leading example here would be Mamba. It’s free to use but you can opt to pay for addition privileges that can make search and communication a little more easier. There is no direct fraud. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, no.

Type D – ‘Marriage Agencies’
These are almost entirely FSU owned and based and can range from the good to the bad to the ugly. WM need sites like this one to sort the wheat from the chaff. Would a change/enforcement of IMBRA laws affect this model? IMO, no.

As you know, IMBRA is only relative to American men and has no relevance to guys from the rest of the world. I can’t quote you figures and percentages and I cant discuss outside Ukraine but, having been to that country more than 40 times in less than 3 years, then I know for a fact that the ‘WM seeking Ukraine bride brigade’ on the ground represent many nationalities.
 
It would appear that the writing is on the wall for type A. As for the other types then my view is nothing much will change from what is has been for the past 12 months. As for IMBRA type legislation infiltrating down to the rest of the world then it may do but IMO not for a long time. And what if is does? Here in Europe then I think we are more used to this type of legislation and we don’t quite hang on to the notion of ‘freedom’ as Americans seem to do. That’s not a criticism, just a fact. If enhanced IMBRA laws were introduced to the UK tomorrow then I wouldn’t have a problem doing whatever it is I would have to do .. fingerprints, criminal record check etc. I think many ‘serious’ guys over this way would feel the same.

So …..

New legislation might sour some of the market for some of the men … men who probably would never get airborne anyway. As for the rest then sure there will be changes, there always has been and always will be. Is the Russian bride business dead? I think not. Perhaps you or someone else would like to tread where Andrew has refused to?

VV,

Thanks for the clarification about necrophilia (I guess  ).

In terms of caring what others think - I resonate with that. Under most circumstances, I am confident enough in myself and my values, that I honestly just do not care. In those circumstances, the only time things manage to 'get under my skin' is when it begins to affect those around me - most specifically, my family. In most ways I have been very fortunate to NOT be exposed to much, if any, negative preconceptions or bias due to my marriage to Olya. She has only rarely reported noticing anything that she felt was owing to her birth citizenship or marriage to me. Still, we know people - quite a few of them - who have reported that they have been subject to comments in public that were based solely on the "Mail Order Bride" stereotype. Worse, it has occasionally been reported that children of these unions have had similar negative experiences. It is one thing to ignore a bigot - and I generally do. It is another when that bigot turns his/her vitriol toward my wife or children. I then do not ignore it. That is where I am at this point with the types of articles such as the one referenced. Silence in the face of such ignorant bigotry is tantamount to acceptance - and I do not and will not accept it any longer. Just my POV.

As for the "death" claim. I am not staking out a position that "death" is imminent. I expect that men and women who live in distant geographies will always be able to find one another. As I wrote upthread, I do believe the agency/IMB business model of the past decade is changing and will be shaped (or re-shaped, if you prefer) by at least two principal forces - legislation and technology.

In terms of IMBRA, you are not correct that IMBRA affects only Americans. Yes, it is a US law, but one with extra-territorial provisions. This means it is intended to be enforced outside the physical borders of the US. IMBRA makes the explicit *inclusion* of any agency operating anywhere in the world that is marketing to US clientele - which is for all intents and purposes all the agencies/IMBs that we have been discussing/debating. While one may argue the enforceability of US law on a foreign agency/IMB owner, that very point was discussed in another RWD topic not long ago, with the upshot being that; (a) the authors of IMBRA were VERY aware of the extra-territorial provisions included in IMBRA and the anticipated skepticism of enforcement actions, (b) enforcement is available if that foreign owner has ANY assets in the US or that transit the US or if they ever visit the US or any country with an extradition treaty with the US, and (c) there is an awareness on the part of those seeking to see IMBRA enforcement actions taken, that they need to concretely deal with the skeptics - and they plan to.

I met with the authors of IMBRA just a couple of months ago in Virginia (near DC). We had a very long meeting (not the first) and it was productive. I came away clearly understanding their resolve to see IMBRA enforcement actions commenced, and to some extent, the direction they wish to take with current enforcement, and with future plans for IMBRA. It is NOT going away. On that point, I am abundantly clear. Like most everyone else, I am now waiting for the translations of the pamphlet - the requisite 30 days - and then we can begin to see whether IMBRA will have any real teeth. I believe it will, but only time will tell.

VV - I need to take a bit more time to carefully review the agency 'model' and variants you laid out, and then to provide comment.

Have I managed to already tread where others did not - or does that come with the comments on the 4 agency variants?

- Dan

[Vinnvinny]

In terms of caring what others think - I resonate with that. Under most circumstances, I am confident enough in myself and my values, that I honestly just do not care. In those circumstances, the only time things manage to 'get under my skin' is when it begins to affect those around me - most specifically, my family. In most ways I have been very fortunate to NOT be exposed to much, if any, negative preconceptions or bias due to my marriage to Olya. She has only rarely reported noticing anything that she felt was owing to her birth citizenship or marriage to me. Still, we know people - quite a few of them - who have reported that they have been subject to comments in public that were based solely on the "Mail Order Bride" stereotype. Worse, it has occasionally been reported that children of these unions have had similar negative experiences. It is one thing to ignore a bigot - and I generally do. It is another when that bigot turns his/her vitriol toward my wife or children. I then do not ignore it. That is where I am at this point with the types of articles such as the one referenced. Silence in the face of such ignorant bigotry is tantamount to acceptance - and I do not and will not accept it any longer. Just my POV.

Again my view might be clouded by being European and possibly more importantly, British. I live in a small town of just 22k. In my town there are many nationalities including Slovakian, Czech, Polish and South African. These aren’t 2nd generation residents, they are recent additions. On the actual street that I live in I can see cars parked with Slovakian, Lithuanian and Polish number plates (the South Africans tend to come without their cars ). My children’s school classes are of a similar mixture. Our local supermarkets have shelves designated to Eastern European foods and alcohol, we have shops that have Polish names. Maybe .. just maybe, we over here don’t suffer from similar stereotypes as we are 'used to it' and it isn’t news. To be honest, if I brought a Russian wife over then I don’t think anyone would think twice about it, although of course you will always encounter the odd ‘lunatic’ hence your necrophilia comment.

In terms of IMBRA, you are not correct that IMBRA affects only Americans. Yes, it is a US law, but one with extra-territorial provisions. This means it is intended to be enforced outside the physical borders of the US. IMBRA makes the explicit *inclusion* of any agency operating anywhere in the world that is marketing to US clientele - which is for all intents and purposes all the agencies/IMBs that we have been discussing/debating. While one may argue the enforceability of US law on a foreign agency/IMB owner, that very point was discussed in another RWD topic not long ago, with the upshot being that; (a) the authors of IMBRA were VERY aware of the extra-territorial provisions included in IMBRA and the anticipated skepticism of enforcement actions, (b) enforcement is available if that foreign owner has ANY assets in the US or that transit the US or if they ever visit the US or any country with an extradition treaty with the US, and (c) there is an awareness on the part of those seeking to see IMBRA enforcement actions taken, that they need to concretely deal with the skeptics - and they plan to.

Not being American then I am sure you will appreciate that my knowledge of IMBRA is sketchy to say the least. However, whilst I am aware of the extra-territorial provisions, surely this will still only apply to clients from America which was my point although perhaps I didn’t make it so well. On the whole subject of IMBRA, has any American owned business ever been prosecuted for failue to comply?

I met with the authors of IMBRA just a couple of months ago in Virginia (near DC). We had a very long meeting (not the first) and it was productive. I came away clearly understanding their resolve to see IMBRA enforcement actions commenced, and to some extent, the direction they wish to take with current enforcement, and with future plans for IMBRA. It is NOT going away. On that point, I am abundantly clear. Like most everyone else, I am now waiting for the translations of the pamphlet - the requisite 30 days - and then we can begin to see whether IMBRA will have any real teeth. I believe it will, but only time will tell.

Again I agree. From what I have read then there seems to be an appetite to extend the laws but I don’t think it will kill the industry as a whole for reasons I mentioned above.

Have I managed to already tread where others did not - or does that come with the comments on the 4 agency variants?

Yes, you have swam out a little and your reply was refreshing to read. You haven’t written that you agree with me 100% and you haven’t told me I am silly, dishonest and can't read … we are entering unchartered waters, in more ways than one.  

[Shadow]

vinnyvinny, do you think and feel the same regarding the FSU immigrants as regarding immigrants from the former British colonies India and Pakistan ?

Similarly when looking at legislation regarding IMBRA do not look at the FSU picture. It is a very small part of the marriage immigration, and one that I would expect to cause less problems as others.

Every large urban area has its share of immigration problems, and discouraging immigration without directly denying the possibility has been a priority for many governments around the world, in Europe as much as in the USA. IMBRA has to be seen in this light as well, as it tries to discourage people "at the source".

[Vinnvinny]

vinnyvinny, do you think and feel the same regarding the FSU immigrants as regarding immigrants from the former British colonies India and Pakistan ?

The Asian people in my town are very few and there is zero problems in this area. I myself hail from a much a larger city where there are ‘issues’, although personally its never been a problem for me.

My guess is that if the immigrants where I live were black then things would be different. As the future Mrs Vinny will have Slavic features then she will go largely unnoticed. People around these parts also aren’t so intelligent. If she says she’s from Ukraine then they are likely to think it’s a Scottish Island.

Similarly when looking at legislation regarding IMBRA do not look at the FSU picture. It is a very small part of the marriage immigration, and one that I would expect to cause less problems as others.

I didn’t understand your point on that comment Shadow.

Every large urban area has its share of immigration problems, and discouraging immigration without directly denying the possibility has been a priority for many governments around the world, in Europe as much as in the USA. IMBRA has to be seen in this light as well, as it tries to discourage people "at the source".

I would take a lot of convincing to believe the EU would introduce specific laws like IMBRA for the sole basis on curbing immigration of 'foreign wives'. As you may know, the UK has recently introduced yearly immigration ‘quotas’ because we are full, but I am as confident as I can be that these wont stop me adding an extra one should I so desire.

[Maxx2]

I read the pdfs. Is there any plans to counter this propaganda and IMBRA when it will be unleashed in it's full fury? Or has it been 'analysis-paralysis'?   
 

[Admin]

I read the pdfs. Is there any plans to counter this propaganda and IMBRA when it will be unleashed in it's full fury? Or has it been 'analysis-paralysis'?   
 

What is your suggestion to "counter this propaganda" Maxx?

- Dan

[Maxx2]

Thank you for the question Dan. I think first it would be to a good idea to discuss exactly what we are facing and then figure how we can counter it. Otherwise to present a possible solution, a way to counter something undefined, may not seem evident to those reading this. So a little analysis first of the "reasons" why IMBRA is said to be needed. I'll get to work on that

BTW on a related front in this war is the efforts of V.O.I.F.V., R.A.D.A.R. and S.A.V.E. on their congressional lobbying efforts in D.C. and their siting on congressional committees for V.A.W.A. reform and restructuring. IMBRA is not their concern but who their opponents are in this reform are the same ones who created IMBRA. The Acheles heel of VAWA as it relates to immigration is American women whose lives have been shattered by this law. I am told that when these ladies tell their stories to staffers at their Congressional offices people sit up and listen.

[Bruno]

Again my view might be clouded by being European and possibly more importantly, British. I live in a small town of just 22k. In my town there are many nationalities including Slovakian, Czech, Polish and South African. These aren’t 2nd generation residents, they are recent additions. On the actual street that I live in I can see cars parked with Slovakian, Lithuanian and Polish number plates (the South Africans tend to come without their cars ). My children’s school classes are of a similar mixture. Our local supermarkets have shelves designated to Eastern European foods and alcohol, we have shops that have Polish names.

For your info, Slovakia, Poland, and the the Czech Republic are part of the European Union.

People from these countries are EU citizen and have the right to move freely between member states to live, work, study or retire in another country.

By the way, other ex-USSR country like Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, and Slovenia are members of the EU too...

[Admin]

I didn’t understand your point on that comment Shadow.

I'll take the opportunity to respond to this question by adding a few more statistics. This time, they are immigration stats from the Department of Homeland Security. You will find the two spreadsheets I used, developed and published by DHS, attached.

What you will find in the attachments is the in the US in 2009, the following are the Top 'n' countries for K-type nonimmigrant visas (K-1, K-2, K-3, and K-4) - the ones most often used by RWD members, and the visa type targeted by IMBRA:

7736 Mexico
7138 Philippines
2918 China
1597 Colombia
1596 Dominican Republic
1122 Thailand
1122 India
1109 Vietnam
1096 Canada
1082 Russia
1054 United Kingdom
1031 Pakistan
991 Ukraine

These 13 countries represent 29,592 K-visas issued of the total K-visas of 47,524 or 62% of the total.

Now, how about taking a look at the number of K-visas as a percent of the total of all admissions, and those numbers in 2009 would be 47,524 of a total of more than 160 MILLION - a percentage equal to 0.029%.

In terms of K-visas issued from 2000 to 2009, it looks like this:

2000 - 23,671
2001 - 27,121
2002 - 37,330
2003 - 44,029
2004 - 55,178
2005 - 58,374
2006 - 53,378
2007 - 57,002
2008 - 50,557
2009 - 47,524

It looks to me like the % of K-visas to the total runs very close to 0.030% each year with only minor variability from year to year.

FSU K-visas, as a percentage of ALL K-visas is a fraction of the total - and K-visas overall, as a percentage of ALL nonimmigrant visas is a very small number indeed.

Shadow's point is that FSU K-visas are an infinitesimal value and percentage, and that Asia and Latin America dwarf the FSU figures - at least, in the US.

Oh - and should Eduard be viewing, please note that Russia has MORE K-visas issued each year than Ukraine - which might suggest to the thinking person that Eduard's "statistics" are a bit . . . skewed. FWIW

- Dan

[Jooky]

A few additional things to consider in these statistics:

What percentage of K visas are men immigrating to the US?
What percentage of overall K visa result from the use of IMBs?
Does this vary from country to country?

I don't think we can find answers to these questions, but it's something to think about.

From what I've heard the number of K visas granted in Russia have shifted more towards people who met without a marriage broker involved and the number of men being issued K visas has also increased. Both of these factors would indicate that the actual number of marriages through the 'Russian bride' business are declining even more than the statistics show on the surface.

Think about this also: Last year there were more K-1 visas offered to UK citizens than Russians, and there is no 'British Bride' business as far as I know.

[I/O]

a total of more than 160 MILLION

The SS lists about 36 million. I'm missing something?

[Jooky]

The other reason it holds an interest is that I am, as you can probably tell, not a fan of IMBRA and similar legislation.

Neither am I, just in principal. As it stands now, it doesn't affect me personally, but laws like IMBRA do open the door for more restrictive and intrusive laws in the future. I'm against that.

So what's to be done about it?

One solution seems to be to technically elminate 'marriage brokers' by converting 'bride sites' to conform to 'regular dating sites' standards.

[Admin]

A few additional things to consider in these statistics:

What percentage of K visas are men immigrating to the US?
What percentage of overall K visa result from the use of IMBs?
Does this vary from country to country?

I don't think we can find answers to these questions, but it's something to think about.

From what I've heard the number of K visas granted in Russia have shifted more towards people who met without a marriage broker involved and the number of men being issued K visas has also increased. Both of these factors would indicate that the actual number of marriages through the 'Russian bride' business are declining even more than the statistics show on the surface.

Think about this also: Last year there were more K-1 visas offered to UK citizens than Russians, and there is no 'British Bride' business as far as I know.

And the other unanswered question of how many K-visas are issued to a US Citizen or LPR who is formerly from that country - as in the case of Mexico where K-1/K-2 visas are quite small in comparison to the K-3/K-4 visa entries, with the likeliest explanation that K-3/K-4 applicants are married to Mexican LPR living in the US.

- Dan

[Admin]

The SS lists about 36 million. I'm missing something?

Look at the OTHER spreadsheet - the one that shows 2000 - 2009 stats. I used that one for the % calculation because I wanted to see if the total of K-visas was increasing/decreasing as a % of some reference point (in this case, TOTAL ADMISSIONS).

The 36 Million number you see in the spreadsheet showing Countries, is the number of *nonimmigrant* admissions, whereas the 160 Million number I referenced is the TOTAL ADMISSIONS in 2009.

Make sense?

- Dan

[I/O]

Dan: A very quick glance shows total admissions with a variance of up to 10% year on year 2003-2009 whereas K totals vary by near 25% year on year for the same period. Is it reliable to reference one off the other given the K's form such a tiny percentage of the overall numbers and are therefore likely to look rather static on that basis?

[Maxx2]

What is your suggestion to "counter this propaganda" Maxx?

- Dan

When I read the pdfs my reaction was 'what a lot of baloney'. They reminded me of what motivated me to go on my film quest. I figured it would take film to get people to see with their own eyes what the truths are in these situations. Sadly I came to the understanding that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. People that you would think would be interested in this issue are not interested in taking the minutes to view these film clips much less analyse them. Or they want to stay in their bamboozle "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)" -- Carl Sagan

Dan, you have heard of the infamous James Fox. The guy that kicked off the reason for IMBRA. Here is a 5 minute film clip I filmed of him explaining how much money he had to spend defending himself (his record is expunged of these charges), the level of legal effort mounted against him and what motivated this in his opinion.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5EPz9b3UI[/youtube]

[Admin]

Dan: A very quick glance shows total admissions with a variance of up to 10% year on year 2003-2009 whereas K totals vary by near 25% year on year for the same period. Is it reliable to reference one off the other given the K's form such a tiny percentage of the overall numbers and are therefore likely to look rather static on that basis?

I/O,

Analysis of statistics can be tricky. In this instance, I saw that 2009 K-visas were fewer than at any time since 2003 - and with the understanding that K-visa issuance is a part of the broader immigration policy of the US, decided to look at the Total Admissions during those same years, which are (rounded):

2000 - NA
2001 - NA
2002 - NA
2003 - 180,500,000
2004 - 180,200,000
2005 - 175,300,000
2006 - 175,100,000
2007 - 171,300,000
2008 - 175,400,000
2009 - 162,600,000

From this view, one can see that the overall number of admissions to the US is declining since 2003, and if one were so inclined, a rate of decline could be determined. Still, the picture looks a bit different than the K-visa numbers, which were:

2000 - 23,671
2001 - 27,121
2002 - 37,330
2003 - 44,029
2004 - 55,178
2005 - 58,374
2006 - 53,378
2007 - 57,002
2008 - 50,557
2009 - 47,524

So I decided to try to place the numbers in context of the overall admissions, to see if (and by how much) the K-visa variability compared to the overall admissions, hence, my use of K-visa total divided by Total Admissions and expressed as a percentage - results in this:

2000 - NA
2001 - NA
2002 - NA
2003 - 0.024%
2004 - 0.031%
2005 - 0.033%
2006 - 0.030%
2007 - 0.033%
2008 - 0.029%
2009 - 0.029%

Since my only interest was in seeing the relative trend of number of K-visas to some reference point, this provided that trend and seems to indicate a relative stability in the context of overall admissions to the US. Another way to look at it is that K-visas are pretty stable in terms of overall US immigration policy.

Now to your point (I think - please correct if I missed it), there is some wide variability in the number of K-visas issued from year to year as seen if I add % change to the table:

2000 - 23,671 - baseline (for these purposes)
2001 - 27,121 - 15% growth
2002 - 37,330 - 38% growth
2003 - 44,029 - 18% growth
2004 - 55,178 - 25% growth
2005 - 58,374 - 6% growth
2006 - 53,378 - 9% decline
2007 - 57,002 - 7% growth
2008 - 50,557 - 11% decline
2009 - 47,524 - 6% decline

I hope this helps explain what I was trying to accomplish.

- Dan