The Russian bride business is dead!! I don't think so.

[Jack]

Sorry it has taken some time to reply to a couple of you who had asked a question and/or expressed an opinion as to my thoughts on the current state of the Russian/Ukraine bride business. In addition to being a little busy it has taken some time to read all the comments and links posted on this subject from the two discussion boards. And a warning in advance, this is a looooong post.
 
I am posting my thoughts, expressed opinions, in the RWD section set aside for Commercial members. In discussing what I do with regards to IMBRA I am of course reflecting what I do for my business. No way of getting around discussing IMBRA and what I do without it's reflecting on my business. I believe that Commercial members are allowed to discuss their services with no problem once a month and as such feel it's better to address my opinions as to the recent comments/articles/ as to the state of this industry in this area of the discussion board so as to not offend or violate T.O.S.
 
Now I am only expressing MY opinions. Each of you have your own opinions, feel free to share those with me if you wish. I am sure I will hear from a few who have drastically different views from my own and as such we will simply have a difference of opinion. And that is all it is, differing opinions. I base my opinions on what I have seen and learned with this being part of my daily life for 17 years now.  Their are a few individuals on RWD whose knowledge and opinion I value and respect and as such am often in discussions with. And these same individuals are often contacting me with questions about the industry and various aspects to the pursuit for a Russian/Ukraine bride. This industry, this pursuit, is an on-going education. One will never know all the answers and it is one of the main reasons why I read, participate, on this discussion board. What is the single greatest thing any man can do to help his cause in finding the best Russian/Ukraine wife for him,   ............  education.  Plain and simple.  Read, read, read.   Get a feel for what method, or methods, you feel most comfortable with. Try to separate the true bs and bias statements from those which are impartial.
 
In 17 years I have seen this industry undergo massive changes, but unlike what we are hearing now, nothing changed overnight.  One in this business is always changing if they are going to stay current. Recently their has been talk about change. Changes are always going to be a part of any and all successful business's, it is to be expected. But some of the rhetoric being expressed by a few I feel has crossed the line from being helpful information to instead being misleading information with a hidden agenda.
 
I have also seen a few things written recently that I'm quite sure are inaccurate and can only hope they were not written with an intent to mis-lead or trying to help paint what they think will be a more accurate picture for their cause.
 
I will begin by offering my thoughts and opinions to post's that several of you have made from this Russian discussion board and the other discussion board where the first notice that the Russian bride business was dead originated from, followed by my comments as to statements written by Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel from his posted links.   
 
I think it will be best for me not to post my thoughts on the originating discussion board as, based on what I have seen, I am sure some of what I post would be removed to the "ECR844 Discuses Copyright Laws Around The World" thread.   I have seen some of the comments with differing views as to the quick death of the industry systemically removed and I can see no reason why most of these comments were deleted from the thread and moved to some place not even remotely close to the topic being discussed.  The Moderator actively working this thread has stated he pretty well concurs with what Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel has presented. I feel many other members have also seen some what of an attempt to remove post's that are not falling in line with some, including some who have the power to remove/replace posts, as witnessed by comments like this .........." The moving and deletion of posts that criticize your advertorial and the banning of truly experienced men (far more than you in terms of searching for and marrying Russian women) stinks and gives the impression that you are all in cahoots to mislead and rip people off, not help them."     

Also manny hates my full tilt Jack special, complete with huge paragraph spaces and mobyesque multiple quotes on his site   
 
 
"The Russian Bride business is dying"    
 
In my opinion the person/persons making this statement either (A) do not know what they are talking about, or (B) have a hidden agenda in which they need this perception to be believed, or (C) both.  I tend to be leaning towards C.
 
 
"Considering the totality of all immigration hurdles one must jump, IMBRA is minimal."
 
I absolutely agree. IMBRA is minimal at best.  Any agency who closes down their business because of IMBRA is a business who (A) is probably working a little on the shady side if you know what I mean or, (B) they have no business being in the business.  IMBRA is no reason for any agencies to go out of business, PERIOD!  IMBRA is not that demanding, at least not for the agencies. IMBRA's intent was always good but unfortunately their are some parts of IMBRA that will not stand up to a full blown legal challenge, and it will come up in the future after some of these issues have actually taken place. Most of IMBRA will survive as written but 5-7 years from now, once certain aspects of IMBRA have been pleaded, and all the motions have been heard, certain parts of IMBRA WILL be re-written but these certain parts are minor in the overall broad coverage of IMBRA.



maxx "The industry isn't dead yet but it is near death's door. Two things are killing it IMBRA and the economy."


Hello Maxx, hope you are doing well.  I know you are close to many aspects of IMBRA as well the ugly side of what can happen.  Here let me simply say with respect to your statement that the industry is near death's door, we simply will have to agree to disagree.   

ONE thing more than any other has effected this industry over the last 2.25 years. One thing. It is called  "the economy".   The industry has suffered a slow down as have most industries in America, and the world.  Not only have there been fewer Americans traveling to Ukraine, Russia, the FSU over the last two years, there have been fewer Englishmen, less Canadians, less Germans, less Aussies, less men from Italy, Greece, China.  IMBRA has had NO effect on any of these other countries, IMBRA has had only minimal effect on American bride business's.



facerock "The ever expanding internet and the fact that more women in the FSU are learning English equals the death of hundreds of marriage agency's. I really believe its that simple. the MOB agency's are slowly croaking. No big news, its been in steady decline for years."


I wish it were true and that simple facerock. I really wish more women in the FSU were learning English. Their is no slow down in the number of women from the big cities learning English. But I do see a slowdown, a lower number, of women in the rural areas, small cities, villages, who are learning English today.  Today we have fewer FSU women attending universities then anytime I can recall over the last 17 years and I expect we are at a level not seen since probably before the Patriotic War.  And don't ask me for figures to back this up, although I feel for certain the figures are out there if anyone wants to look for them, I am voicing my opinion as to what I see and hear from talking to many Rus/Ukr ladies every year.
 
facerock I don't think that more women learning English has been the death of hundreds of marriage agencies. Their is an old theory/concept/belief that more agencies are dis-honest than honest.  Bad agencies don't care if the women speak any English and prefer the women not to speak English.  The good agencies are going to be more successful with helping their clients if they are able to speak a little English.   
 
As expressed to Maxx, I don't think the MOB agencies are slowly croaking, what has happened is a decline for sure of several good and honest agencies over the last two years.  Not having the great number of American men, or other foreign men, has 100% for sure effected several agencies that I know personally. Their is no doubt about that. And not one of these business has suffered from IMBRA, but rather from the, as it is called in Ukraine, "the crisis",  the downturn in the world's economy.
 
 

Jooky "Overall K visas are on the decline".


Hey Jooky. I agree this could be true but equal only to the overall level of fewer American men the last two years. Fewer American men going will mean fewer K-1 visas. But if you look back to 3-4-5 years ago I don't think you can say overall K visas were on the decline.



Gator "Maybe his data show that Yanks, because of their stupidity, account for the vast amount of sales at HRB, et al vs. the tightassed Ozzie and Euro men plus the men from Turkey, Arabic countries, etc.  Thus, a decline in the American segment of HRB's business would have a major negative impact.  Just speculation on my part."



I think some fairly accurate speculating on your part Gator.

Their has been a decline across the board in the number of American's pursuing a Russian bride over the last two and a half years. Any and all large agencies have felt this. Now, with IMBRA soon to be enforced some large agencies are going to have to change their methods. What they do today will not fly once IMBRA begins to be enforced. Some of the large agencies who offer video chat service as an example will see segments of this service greatly effected "unless" they make changes. And that is what I think is behind a lot of this Russian bride business dying theme. The Russian bride business IS going to effect them and they will HAVE to make changes.  What are some of these changes?  Who knows. Maybe it will be a part of some multi-level business opportunity, maybe some large business's will relocate off shore and offer services they can get by with in this country.

We are not seeing a dying of the industry, what we are seeing is the changes some agencies will have to make in order to continue making millions of dollars. Change is going to happen, it has to with some of these agencies. So why not try to convince the mass's that the change a certain large agency is recommending as to be the way of the future?  Maybe it is but more than likely it is a change they are being forced to make and would like to get as many people (and emails) on board as possible, when in reality the marriage business that exist today, the ma and pa agencies through out Ukraine and Russia and the FSU, some of the large agencies like EM, these business are going to continue and as I have seen over the last few months, they are going to prosper, they will be getting more business.


 
shadow "The report itself is a standard internet marketing work of 20 pages, with a shocking opening and at the end a promise to get something interesting in the future." 


Standard internet marketing from a standard internet marketer.  I think the shocking opening was meant to have a bigger, pro-reaction than what it got.  You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can never fool all the people all the time. Their are some pretty smart individuals who are part of this most magnificent pursuit who are not so easily fooled.



manny "started a topic on here recently suggesting that there are changes coming across the mail-order-bride industry. They are now on the horizon and looming rapidly into view."


manny, could you by any chance go into these rapidly looming changes?  I'm quite serious. What are they?  If you have knowledge to these changes that are looming, could you explain them in easy terms?

Are you referring to IMBRA about to being enforced?  If so I have to say I do not see any rapidly looming changes to most of the American agencies involved with helping men to find Ukraine/Russian brides. For sure their are some agencies, some whose specialty is more involved with video chat services, who are going to be greatly effected unless they make changes. Yes I agree with that, but in all due respect, this will only effect a handful of large American owned agencies and a lot of small agencies in Russia and Ukraine who provide many of these video chat girls, but in reality only a few of those small agencies are actually involved with the Russian bride business. In my opinion losing agencies/business's like this will be a benefit to the long term success and efficiency of the bride business.



manny "The state of Texas has brought to law the “International Matchmaking Organization (IMO)” rules. Men in Texas now need to submit fingerprints in order to fulfil the rules if they want to seek out a foreign wife from overseas." 

manny "Forcing men to be fingerprinted, etc. as some states have on the books already. Many wont bother even starting this endeavour." 
 

manny as you know I live 8 months each year in Texas. And I think I stay as current as possible as to state laws that will effect my business. When I saw you write this I thought how in the heck could such a law pass with me being gone for only three weeks!  You just wouldn't create something like this out of thin air.  So I called a good friend who is an attorney licensed in Texas. I also helped him to find a Russian bride some 6 years ago. I asked him about this law, than men in Texas now need to submit fingerprints in order to seek a foreign wife.  My attorney say's it's not so.
 
Manny you also write this is a law in another two or three states. And with those states, as of today, it's not true. The state of Maryland has something on the books they would like to get passed addressing this, fingerprinting of men, but as of today, it's not on the books, the law has not passed.  Of course I could be wrong with one or all of these states, maybe you are correct and will apologize if I am mistaken and what you have stated is in fact true.
 
Can you provide proof that this is actually a law in effect in Texas and the other states you mentioned?
 
 
 

manny, "I think it is to be expected the US government tries to close down the monetary side along with everything else they are doing. It seems the US government has decided this industry is finished in its current form.
 
 
manny I 100% disagree with this statement, or rather opinion. I know, it's probably only your opinion but my opinion would be there is no truth to this. And as I first stated, I realize I will have conflicting opinions with some of the guys who are predicting the immeadite alienation of the Russian/Ukraine bride business.   
 
I do not see the US government trying to close down my business in it's current form.   If business's comply with IMBRA, WHAT is the problem? Their is NO problem.  Now some agencies are going to have to make changes in the way they do things, and for the most part I am glad to see that this is going to happen. A handful of American owned business are going to have to change the current form in which they are doing business. And if by some chance these handful of large agencies go out of business, it is not going to be the doom of the Russian/Ukraine bride business, no, not at all, but it could be for the few large agencies who are going to have to make changes.
 
 
 
 
manny, " With worldwide effect. How will they do that? Easy. Here are a few possibilities:

No immigration K-1/3/CR1 visas for foreign women without IMBRA and all state regulations being adhered to, to the letter"
 

manny, your not painting an entirely accurate picture with this statement.  manny you know their are many, many K-1's being issued each year to foreign women who did not have to adhere to IMBRA.  Many ladies are meeting men thru means that are IMBRA exempt. Many men meeting Ukraine or Russian women not thru agencies. Some guys meet Russian ladies who was a waitress at a restaurant he was eating at. Many men meet ladies on the beaches of the Black Sea, or at clubs, or on cruise ships, or walking down Khershatyk. And a LOT of men are meeting a LOT of women on various Russian internet sites, all of which are IMBRA exept. IMBRA is not needed in these cases and of course these type meetings would have no problem getting a K-1 visa without IMBRA.
 
The ONLY women who will have problem with a K-1 visa are women who met a man through an agency and the man and/or agency did not comply with IMBRA.  If the man complies with IMBRA, there is a good chance the woman is going to be given a K-1 visa.
 
 
 

manny, "You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.
 
 
manny, you are correct, we will NOT see extinction, we will see changes, or evolution if you prefer this term, with a handful of large American agencies.
 
We will NOT see the extinction of the Russian/Ukraine bride business unless we enter into another Cold War. If we were to go to war against Russia, or Ukraine, if American's were not allowed to travel to Russia, Ukraine, the FSU, then we would see the end of the Russian bride business as we know it today. 
 
With IMBRA you will see evolution with those agencies who today offer certain services, such as those using video chats. The gravy train they have come to know is going to change, these agencies will have to make changes. The only thing most of us will witness are the changes a handful of big American owned companies are going to have to make in order to comply with IMBRA.  For most American owned agencies IMBRA is not going to effect us.
 
 
 
 
TomT,  "This chart is from USCIS statistics and got a bit screwed up in the copy-and-paste process. Nonetheless, it's pretty clear that K visas peaked between 2004 and 2007 but have been dropping off since. Bloomberg's misleading comment is an excellent example of how statistics can be abused by trash journalists."  
 
I guess we see want we want to see in statistics.  Actually Tom the figures shown for 2008 and 2009 are pretty much in line with, and reflects, the direct coloration of fewer men traveling to Russia and Ukraine during the turmoil of our own economy.   Reading Bloomberg's comments I would put a whole lot more truth and reality into that than anything produced by andrew.  And your point is well noted with reference as to how individuals can abuse statistics.
 
 
 
  brasscasings,  "I pretty well concur with what Andrew has presented.
As the laws/regulations tighten up worldwide, the agencies will either have to change how they do their business, bend the rules (possibly leaving their clients legally exposed if discovered) or be squeezed out (no longer viable).  I believe the 'industry', at least in it's current form, will not exist in 2 years."
 
 
Brass, really, I think you are either ill-informed or just do not have a good understanding of things.  Most American agencies will NOT have to bend the rules in order to comply with IMBRA. Those that do bend the rules will be the first one's exposed to the reality of the IMBRA law.   IMBRA is really a very simple thing. The man fills out the IMBRA form. I do a check with the National Sex Registry.  I sign off on the IMBRA form and give one copy to this agency, another copy to this agency and this agency and that agency.  Now, of the women that Mr. Client would like to meet with each of these agencies, and the ladies who would like to meet Mr. Client,  they simply come to the agency office and sign the IMBRA form. That's it!!!  No meeting of woman unless she signs the IMBRA form.  Were all legal and IMBRA conforming.    Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending our parties, before they enter the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be 10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA forms on a desk just before they enter the party. Each woman has to sign each of the IMBRA forms.  Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA compliment for our tour parties.
 
Brass, I will be doing what I do today in the same manner two-three years from now. Little will change.  Why some of you are trying to make IMBRA out to being the monster that it is not only makes me ask   "Why? What is the reason why their are a handful of you guys trying to tell a story that's not true".   


 
 
  westcoast,  "Just reading one of my favorite online business magazines and what did I come across but this title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade Is Flourishing" in Bloomberg Businessweek.  I guess that ends any arguments over the death of the Russian Bride business.  Bloomberg's resources are far greater than anything Andrew could have at his fingertips." 
 

What terrible timing for Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel.  He sure didn't expect such a report to come out within 2-3 days of his gloom-doom-extinction of the business.
 
Hummm, who am I going to believe?     To me their is no question.   For years I have seen Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel making statements I thought were not always true. You will have to excuse me if I sound a little skeptical as to anything Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel says as to being a fact. 
 
Here is one good example as to the type of things that come from the Bottom of the Dirty Barrel.
 
 
  andrew, " Les, I am aware that Jack has had at least two wives from the FSU, I know that one of the marriages ended fairly recently and certainly several years after he started his tour company.     He in fact did marry a woman from the FSU a few years ago and a year or two ago they split up. Shakey is entirely correct in his assertion. His business was set up before the current ex Mrs. Bragg was met. In fact it may well be that this is his second ex Mrs. Bragg from this region and during his current business venture.
 
 
 
What a load of crap!   Mr Bottom of the Dirty Barrel is aware that I have had two wives from the FSU.  He doesn't say "he thinks", or "he heard", oh no, he is aware that I have had at least two wife's from the FSU.  I married a woman from the FSU a few years ago, and a year ago, or two, we split up???    Just another false and misleading statement by Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel. 
 
Man oh man, if this was true I'm going to have some unhappy girlfriends.  So what can/will Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel say when confronted with his false statements?  Probably the same thing Brad Sharp says when proven incorrect,   ...  'Oh, I'm sorry, my sources must have been incorrect'.

What Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel is writing, telling you people about my two FSU wives is an absolute lie.  In the year 1999 I met my Natalia. In the year 2000, eleven years ago, I married my first and only FSU wife.  We have been divorced for five years. My how time flies!  But this individual says, he tells anyone who will listen to him, that only one or two years ago my second FSU wife and I split up.  A complete fabrication of this man's mind, much like his perspective about the Russian/Ukraine bride business being dead.
 
 
 
 
  andrew, "Right now the 'mail order bride' business, or 'International marriage broker/bureau' business is reaching a tipping point.The business is undergoing some violent and destructive changes.   tell me I am an idiot and then tell me why! "  
 
 
Ok idiot, I'll tell you why.  Compared to the last two years, the Russian/Ukraine bride business is doing better every week. The interest, emails, phone calls, I have received over the last three months make me very excited about the next couple of years.  Ok, so you don't want to believe me and that my business is doing quite well,  how about the Businessweek article, it says the business is going quite well.  What about the Today Show from last week in which two major players in the industry say the business is doing quite well.       Hummmm,  just who are we to believe? 
 
My Russian bride business is NOT undergoing violent and destructive changes.  My Russian bride business has no problems with complying with IMBRA.   Now I will agree that a few of the larger American owned mail order bride business's, or IMB are going to have to undergo some violent and destructive changes. They will have to change the existing business model they work under now. But these are only a handful of American IMB business's and most of these are heavy into the video chat services they provide.
 
Since you have apparently seen the light andrew and you want to help clean up this dirty business you should be all for these violent and destructive changes. What is about to happen will mean less scamming, fewer false dreams being sold.  I would think that since you have not seen the light and want to clean up the place, you would encourage these changes. I know I do.
 
 
 
 
  andrew,  "The process of people meeting and building relationships over distance is increasing by leaps and bounds but there is a period of discontinuous change coming up. It is this change that will be hard for most exisitng service providers and their clients will find hard to manage."


 
WHAT!!!   Ok, first what is this discontinuous change that is going to effect me?  Can you elaborate, give a straight up answer?

How is IMBRA being enforced going to make it hard for me and my clients to manage?  I think you are just making some of this up.  The changes that will take effect when IMBRA begins to be enforced will have no effect on this service provider or his clients. A portion of the women the clients will meet will be need to be IMBRA compliment and probably an equal number of women the client meets will not qualify under IMBRA.
 
 
 
 
andrew,  "The business has been grinding its slow way to the grave since 2005."
 
 
I will have to disagree. Business in 2005, 2006, 2007 was quite good. Business began to slow in 2008, was bad in 2009 and the most of 2010 due solely to the world economy crisis. I noticed a pick-up in business the later part of 2010 and so far 2011 is getting off to a wonderful start.
 
 

andrew, "Only a few years ago there was no shortage of girls and women willing to make the journey across the Atlantic Ocean to the United States"


Today their is NO shortage of women willing to make this journey.




andrew, "Those women now (St. Peteersburg) do not need to find a foreign man to find happiness and security (and nice clothes!)"


Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel, where have you been?  Most of these women in St. Petersburg, in Moscow, in Kiev and Odessa realized several years ago, long BEFORE  IMBRA, that they do not need a foreign man to find happiness and security and nice clothes.




 
andrew,  "The Russian Bride Business will cease to exist in a year or so. And there’s nothing you can do to stop it."


Just an absolute false and misleading statement.  I guess we can review this thread next January and see if the business still exist. 


 
 
andrew, "On the other hand, we see a declining supply of women who want to leave the comfort and safety of their home country"


I do not see this. In fact I see quite the opposite.


 
andrew, "As far as I can tell the first FSU-oriented online marriage agencies hit the scene in around 1995.   These catalogs were supplemented by a basic website."


The first online agencies hit the scene mid to late 1997.  Their was NO website supplementing any of these catalogs until mid to late 1997, and in 1998, 1999 the flood gate was opened. By 1999 most of the catalogs had disappeared.




andrew, "Many of the women, as I recall were quite old and certainly not great beauties."


As you recall?  Can you back up your "as you recall' statement? No need in answering that, you cannot.  I have saved copies of these magazines, have them today. Club Prima, Anastasia, European Connections, Scanna, International Encounters,  to name just a few.  Most are stunning beauties and if you recall seeing many quite old women then we certainly were not looking at the same catalogs.   


 
andrew, "How many men will be willing to go through the process of being treated as a criminal simply to write a letter to a woman, or to telephone her?"


Why should they go through the process of being treated like a criminal?   Men will choose the means and methods they are most comfortable with.  For those men who want to write one, visit one, if they want to write letters, talk on telephone, they will simply have to fill out the IMBRA form for that one lady.  Other men who want to meet many ladies on a trip will fill out one IMBRA form and meet all the ladies who also have an interest to meet him.



andrew, "At the same time there will be fewer women because of the reduction in the number of men and the social stigma of having a foreign wife will make life difficult for all but the most persistent and thick skinned."


And I disagree with this statement completely. Their is not going to be fewer women available during my lifetime and I expect for at least the next two generations.



andrew, "As an agency client how can you ensure that your needs will still be met?"


Work with a reputable IMB. One who doesn't sell fantasies through video chats with 19-20-21 year old girls teasing men of 40 to 60. Work with American agencies who have no problem working within the guidelines of IMBRA.



andrew, "So, we have seen that the international marriage business is in deep trouble, indeed, is now dead without knowing it."


And I will 100% disagree with you. The IMB is not in deep trouble. It appears their is a segment out their wanting to portray this as being a reality, when it is not.


 

andrew, recently I had the opportunity to spend time with one of the largest International Marriage Bureaus and to gain insights that opened my eyes even wider than before and, as a result decided to write this report."


Really!   Can you tell us what insights you gained?  Can you tell us if this large IMB is going to have to undergo some major changes?  Will this IMB be IMBRA compliant? 


 
 
andrew, "You are correct to note the increase in alternate communication methods but my research suggests that for some people, particularly women, some of the no/low cost methods preferred by American men are not appropriate."


WHAT!!  Your research!! How are some of the low cost methods used my some American clients NOT appropriate?   What is not appropriate for men who use free Russian sites, what is not appropriate for American men who use Russian internet sites which have millions of Russian women and with almost all our clients they are meeting ladies from these sources.   HOW does YOUR research suggest these no/low cost non-IMBRA required methods are not appropriate? PURE BS!


 
 
andrew,  "Bottom line, I know my business, I know how to make things work and I am attaining my goals! "


Well, you may know your business as an internet marketer but you certainly do NOT know all that much about the Russian/Ukraine bride business.  I feel sure you may be attaining your goals, especially if they were not so hard to accomplish. Maybe you got hundreds, thousands of emails and if that was your goal, good for you.  But you knowing the Russian/Bride business to the point with many of the claims you are making,  you don't know _ _ _ _!
 
 
 
 
andrew, "What I am trying to do is to help make the direction clear to stakeholders in the IMB business and to try to formulate a means of dealing with the changes. The first part is under way right now. The second part is, still, under development, in part because I am still learning.


Mr. Bottom of the Dirty Barrel, the direction I need to take, and most other American companies in the IMB business is quite clear, just comply with IMBRA and all is well. 
 


 
 
andrew,  "Do businesses that are unwilling to work in concert against industry wide threats deserve to survive?   I think not."



andrew, WHAT are these industry wide threats?    I see only good coming from this.  Large agencies who may not really be Russian/Ukraine marriage agencies, more like a business offering services to chat with young girls, these are the only businesses that need to be concerned about what is headed there way.  And we only have a few of these agencies.  As mentioned before, I think the industry will be better off without these type business's.  And it appears that maybe you think these type of business's should be allowed to continue down the same path? 

I hope IMBRA does help to shake out a large scam element of this industry.  IMBRA will make a portion of the American IMB accountable for future actions, actions that would already be done away with had IMBRA enforcement started a few years ago.

[Manny]

Interesting post Jack.

As some of the people you quote and reply to, do not have a membership here, and much of what you quoted is from RUA, and you are referencing topics at RUA, and as you rightly said, RUA broke the news of Andrews report first, I would prefer to debate you there (in bite sized segments though so people can make sense of it), rather than here, on the points you have raised with me. My limited time does not allow me to be involved in large controversial topics at other sites; to do so would be at the expense of time required on the ones I run.

If you want to discuss this with me, it will be at RUA or not at all. You have a membership. You are quite welcome as you know.

[Muzh]

Jack, very long but very good. I would like to coroborate some.

andrew, "As far as I can tell the first FSU-oriented online marriage agencies hit the scene in around 1995.   These catalogs were supplemented by a basic website."


The first online agencies hit the scene mid to late 1997.  Their was NO website supplementing any of these catalogs until mid to late 1997, and in 1998, 1999 the flood gate was opened. By 1999 most of the catalogs had disappeared.


andrew, "Many of the women, as I recall were quite old and certainly not great beauties."


As you recall?  Can you back up your "as you recall' statement? No need in answering that, you cannot.  I have saved copies of these magazines, have them today. Club Prima, Anastasia, European Connections, Scanna, International Encounters,  to name just a few.  Most are stunning beauties and if you recall seeing many quite old women then we certainly were not looking at the same catalogs.   

I first laid my eyes on one of these catalogs somewhere at the begining of 1998. One was Cherry Blossoms and the other Scanna. The women were stunning. I should say the majority (90%+). Of course, there was a dog here and there. Also, I don't know who remembers russianwomenmegasite.com? I started surfing sites early 1999 and someone at the old RWL recommended this web site (free) which had 100s of links to mom and pop, medium size, and large agencies. It also would tell you which agencies were free. The funny thing about this site was that in some cases a link that was working yesterday would not work today. That was the nature of the business. Also, very few glamour pictures. This is back in the days when this venture was very inocent.

andrew, "At the same time there will be fewer women because of the reduction in the number of men and the social stigma of having a foreign wife will make life difficult for all but the most persistent and thick skinned."

Excuse me while I sneeze: BULLshit!

And I disagree with this statement completely. Their is not going to be fewer women available during my lifetime and I expect for at least the next two generations.

Ahh, much better.

andrew, "You are correct to note the increase in alternate communication methods but my research suggests that for some people, particularly women, some of the no/low cost methods preferred by American men are not appropriate."


WHAT!!  Your research!! How are some of the low cost methods used my some American clients NOT appropriate?   What is not appropriate for men who use free Russian sites, what is not appropriate for American men who use Russian internet sites which have millions of Russian women and with almost all our clients they are meeting ladies from these sources.   HOW does YOUR research suggest these no/low cost non-IMBRA required methods are not appropriate? PURE BS!

This is a good one. More that one person, myself included, questioned the validity of this "reseach" and the protocols of conducting research. Not once did Mr. Fi replied to constant inquiries to defend his research.

 
 

andrew,  "Bottom line, I know my business, I know how to make things work and I am attaining my goals! "


Well, you may know your business as an internet marketer but you certainly do NOT know all that much about the Russian/Ukraine bride business.  I feel sure you may be attaining your goals, especially if they were not so hard to accomplish. Maybe you got hundreds, thousands of emails and if that was your goal, good for you.  But you knowing the Russian/Bride business to the point with many of the claims you are making,  you don't know _ _ _ _!

I guess most of the people who responded to Mr. Fi agree this is a marketing ploy.
 

I hope IMBRA does help to shake out a large scam element of this industry.  IMBRA will make a portion of the American IMB accountable for future actions, actions that would already be done away with had IMBRA enforcement started a few years ago.

Me too.

[Jack]

Hey manny, thanks for replying.  I would really like to get your comments with the questions I asked of you. It would be good to get your insight on the pillage of the industry as you see it. I would have no problem with also submitting this post on rua but as I saw far less  'controversial'   post's being deleted and sent to the far corners of the discussion board, I did not want to abdicate portions of my response to the same treatment.  You know how I feel about such manny. 

[chivo]

Interesting post Jack.

As some of the people you quote and reply to, do not have a membership here, and much of what you quoted is from RUA, and you are referencing topics at RUA, and as you rightly said, RUA broke the news of Andrews report first, I would prefer to debate you there (in bite sized segments though so people can make sense of it), rather than here, on the points you have raised with me. My limited time does not allow me to be involved in large controversial topics at other sites; to do so would be at the expense of time required on the one I run.

If you want to discuss this with me, it will be at RUA or not at all. You have a membership. You are quite welcome as you know.

Of course, that way you can control what is said like what happens to any post that doesn't express a similar view like your '"crap" board does with subjects less engaging. It's the main reason I will never post on your peanut board nor even look at it. I told you when I left your board is a joke, and it is.

Fact is anyone can post here just as easy as your crap board. Doesn't take any more time. But hey, nice spin job, I expect nothing less from skunks.

I mean really what does it matter if you were the first to break that report that im sure the wannabe got on his trip to Florida and his "research" is nothing more than what HRB gave him to market.

Jack don't fall for this BS, so that anyone can post and not have their post get butchered by the "nazi" mods on that board. If I wanted to get my point across and had nothing to hide, I would do it anytime, anywhere. The main people Jack outs is the wannabe and Manny and both have a membership here.

P.S. good post Jack

[Turboguy]

Wow, that was a lot of reading, but very good reading Jack.  I have to agree with everything you said.  I run into very few companies whose business has been great for the past few years.  My own would be included in that and our business has fallen nearly in half but I do think better days are ahead both for my business and the MOB business. 

I have been around longer than some and went through the catalog and snail mail days.  The women in the Club Prima, Latin Euro Introductions, European Connections and Cherry Blossoms catalog were equal to the ones on the web sites today.  They were quite beautiful.  I do think there are more selections available for those looking for woman in their 30's and 40's now.  I would say your timing for the internet was about right on. 

I do think there were more desperate women in those days but I think the changes in technology have made this a snap today compared to what it was back when it all started.  The business has constantly morphed.  Those who got in on the early parts of a change have done well.  Those who stuck with the old ways probably are gone.  The business will change, but it isn't going anywhere.

[Maxx2]

maxx "The industry isn't dead yet but it is near death's door. Two things are killing it IMBRA and the economy."


Hello Maxx, hope you are doing well.  I know you are close to many aspects of IMBRA as well the ugly side of what can happen.  Here let me simply say with respect to your statement that the industry is near death's door, we simply will have to agree to disagree.   

ONE thing more than any other has effected this industry over the last 2.25 years. One thing. It is called  "the economy".   The industry has suffered a slow down as have most industries in America, and the world.  Not only have there been fewer Americans traveling to Ukraine, Russia, the FSU over the last two years, there have been fewer Englishmen, less Canadians, less Germans, less Aussies, less men from Italy, Greece, China.  IMBRA has had NO effect on any of these other countries, IMBRA has had only minimal effect on American bride business's.

Hello Jack. I hope you are doing well as well.

I have to admit I see things from my limited perspective and personal experiences. Regarding the condition of the industry. I have noticed that the 5 agencies I had dealings with 4 are out of business. Another agency whom I know the owner has had zero new business for two straight months. The primary fault is IMO is the economy. With 9.5% unemployment and some say it's more like 19.5% when you count in all the people that have given up looking and those working part time it just doesn't seem like a good idea taking on an expense like a wife from a foreign country. There is the costs of the trips, the emigration costs of the embassy and AOS, the marriage costs of the ceremony, new wardrobe and the money that goes into the pockets of the agency for this venture. Realistically a guy has got to have some serious assets to fund this and/or at least 2-5 thousand dollars a month of expendable income to support a wife. Then there is the chance the wife might turn out to be a high maintenance money pit and worse but I won't go there... I have noticed a lot of people are not getting married in the U.S. anymore. Minnesota were I live just last year had more single person households than married persons households. It's the trend not to get married. Why? The risks and the costs.

IMBRA? most of the men who decided to pass on this venture you will never hear about. It is if they never existed so they are not factored in. Guys like me usually just disappear from message boards (I have thought about doing the same about 1000 times). The ones who had an embarrassing incident in their past will look at a IMBRA form and say "forget about it" and do so. So we will never know how big of an impact IMBRA has had on the "IMB-T" business. 

[Bruno]

andrew, "As far as I can tell the first FSU-oriented online marriage agencies hit the scene in around 1995.   These catalogs were supplemented by a basic website."


The first online agencies hit the scene mid to late 1997.  Their was NO website supplementing any of these catalogs until mid to late 1997, and in 1998, 1999 the flood gate was opened. By 1999 most of the catalogs had disappeared.

Well, i have start my first site in January 1997... at these time, there was already a little hundred of site related to dating foreign women but only a few for the FSU...

At that time, no direct contact was possible with the FSU ladies... by example, for a little siberian town, i was working with the post office, only place in town where they was a computer with internet connection... for city, it was mainly "ladies club" using university computer...

For my second time, around 2000, using the same site template, there was already some major chance on both side... quantity have increase on both side... on the man side, it was the end of rich guy only... foreign dating/marriage was for everybody and not only some elite class... on the FSU side, lot of ladies have their own computer and internet... for the more poor, internet cafe florish in the street...

andrew, "Many of the women, as I recall were quite old and certainly not great beauties."


As you recall?  Can you back up your "as you recall' statement? No need in answering that, you cannot.  I have saved copies of these magazines, have them today. Club Prima, Anastasia, European Connections, Scanna, International Encounters,  to name just a few.  Most are stunning beauties and if you recall seeing many quite old women then we certainly were not looking at the same catalogs.   

Well, i was accepting any women and men... yes, there was in my catalog several older non pin-up women... not really a problem because usually these was the first to find some husband and their number have boost my marriage rate... in these time, there was plenty of mid age ( 35-45 ) widows... about beauty, photo's in catalogue was mainly B&W identity photo or usual life photo...

What have change is the growing number of young FSU girls seeking a new economical foreign partner... these are using pro photographer, make-up, sexy clothes, etc... at some extend, photo are retouched with photoshop... women in actual catalogue are not more beautiful that previously, simply the catalogue show them in their best... it is more about selling dream that the reality...

By example, two pic from the same old woman below ( a over 50 yo actress )... first one is a picture like you can found in "before" catalogue... second one is a picture like you find in "modern" catalogue... if she was a FSU girl, you will date via internet one who look like the second pic... but once married and living together in a normal life, it will be more like the first pic...

Hey, it is the same for the guys... not more photo where the guy is in working clothes but Sunday's costume photo...

As for the remaining of your long post, I agree with all you wrote... will be interesting to have more reply like yours from agency/business owner... only them know how is the business as today...

[tim 360]

Of course, that way you can control what is said like what happens to any post that doesn't express a similar view like your '"crap" board does with subjects less engaging. It's the main reason I will never post on your peanut board nor even look at it. I told you when I left your board is a joke, and it is.
Fact is anyone can post here just as easy as your crap board. Doesn't take any more time. But hey, nice spin job, I expect nothing less from skunks.

I mean really what does it matter if you were the first to break that report that im sure the wannabe got on his trip to Florida and his "research" is nothing more than what HRB gave him to market.

Jack don't fall for this BS, so that anyone can post and not have their post get butchered by the "nazi" mods on that board. If I wanted to get my point across and had nothing to hide, I would do it anytime, anywhere. The main people Jack outs is the wannabe and Manny and both have a membership here.

P.S. good post Jack

What!  Not a level playing field at Manny's World?   What an invitation?    In that case I think here would be more transparent than at his chop shop.  :evil:  Less ability to tamper and "moderate" things to his liking.   

Nice post Jack.  So then the sky isn't falling?

[GQBlues]

As for the remaining of your long post, I agree with all you wrote... will be interesting to have more reply like yours from agency/business owner... only them know how is the business as today...

Who is better qualified to make the assessment than a service provider himself.

Which is what I maintained from day one...if the biz goes awry and dying, it would be because of other factors and hardly related to IMBRA. For any agencies that fold because of IMBRA, it would be as Jack implied, their misdeeds would be their own undoing; and such for every agency doing the el foldo, there will be one or two coming to replace it.

Compliance is painless. For those who pained, there is an obvious reason why.

Kudos for Jack's full compliance without the banter. I hope IMBRA's wheels will retro-actively lay a heavy hand on those who danced around the regulations before believing they'll get away with it...

[Bruno]

The primary fault is IMO is the economy. With 9.5% unemployment and some say it's more like 19.5% when you count in all the people that have given up looking and those working part time it just doesn't seem like a good idea taking on an expense like a wife from a foreign country.... I have noticed a lot of people are not getting married in the U.S. anymore.....It's the trend not to get married. Why? The risks and the costs.

Here in Belgium, since the Economic crisis, the amount of couple married increase ( mainly for the more poor people, these who cannot survive alone in the long term at a financial level )... for two reason mainly :

- Lower divorce rate :

Divorce lawyers are no longer having their doors beaten down by unhappy husbands and wives looking to sign for their freedom on the dotted line. In these tighten-your-belt times, more and more couples are opting to stay unhappy together over doling out money they don’t have for the pricey endeavor that is divorce.

These days, salaries are stagnating, more and more people are losing their jobs, and the value of our homes is creeping ever downward. That is not an ideal economic situation in which to be spending thousands of dollars to bid your marriage goodbye.

- Increase of marriage :

Moreover, although economic difficulties can be stressful on a marriage, lean times also mean that couples become more financially interdependent, relying on a combined household income to survive.

It would seem that an uncertain economic future hasn’t stopped people from going down the aisle in the first place. Wedding rates have not declined during this time.

Being married ( or cohabitation ) have some economical advantage too... two income but one single home with common charge... when you are low on money, being single is a luxe...

Belgium's motto is "Strength through Unity"... can be apply to marriage/cohabitation in case of economic crisis... by the way, if you take a look at the worldwide situation, it is the more poorest country who have a high marriage rate... and the rich western country who have the lower marriage rate...

Now, foreign dating is a luxe option... so, economical situation have a big influence... some people will give up due to cost/expense and turn to local women that they have discarted before...

[tfcrew]

manny "The state of Texas has brought to law the “International Matchmaking Organization (IMO)” rules. Men in Texas now need to submit fingerprints in order to fulfil the rules if they want to seek out a foreign wife from overseas." 

manny "Forcing men to be fingerprinted, etc. as some states have on the books already. Many wont bother even starting this endeavour." 

Word for word stated by this article...'

http://real-deal-blog.com/2010/11/21/the-texas-international-matchmaking-organization-imo-and-imbra-rules/

[tim 360]

Who is better qualified to make the assessment than a service provider himself.

Which is what I maintained from day one...if the biz goes awry and dying, it would be because of other factors and hardly related to IMBRA. For any agencies that fold because of IMBRA, it would be as Jack implied, their misdeeds would be their own undoing; and such for every agency doing the el foldo, there will be one or two coming to replace it.

Compliance is painless. For those who pained, there is an obvious reason why.

Kudos for Jack's full compliance without the banter. I hope IMBRA's wheels will retro-actively lay a heavy hand on those who danced around the regulations before believing they'll get away with it...

Yeah.  I can't see how IMBRA would be a dealbreaker for a guy who had a clean criminal record.  IIRC IMBRA seems to really target those with former Domestic Violence Records--like Convictions.  Now, the salient argument could be made that those previous DV Convictions may not be the right fit for an FSU wife?  Or possibly even an American wife?  Or any wife?  

Anyway, I would guess only a small percentage of guys seeking an FSU wife have DV Convictions or Criminal Convictions.  So I don't see the big deal?  Or maybe alot do have criminal records?   

[GQBlues]

Word for word stated by this article...'

http://real-deal-blog.com/2010/11/21/the-texas-international-matchmaking-organization-imo-and-imbra-rules/

tfcrew-

LOL. Did you notice who were the prime advertisers in that page?

[GQBlues]

Yeah.  I can't see how IMBRA would be a dealbreaker for a guy who had a clean criminal record.  IIRC IMBRA seems to really target those with former Domestic Violence Records--like Convictions.  Now, the salient argument could be made that those previous DV Convictions may not be the right fit for an FSU wife?  Or possibly even an American wife?  Or any wife?  

Anyway, I would guess only a small percentage of guys seeking an FSU wife have DV Convictions or Criminal Convictions.  So I don't see the big deal?  Or maybe alot do have criminal records? 

Partly. It also targets those that ARE married here at home yet are seeking a wife elsewhere. 

 Bottom line is, and I've stated this in another thread, businesses do get regulated and there's no ifs and buts about that. IMBRA, if anything, was long overdue.

[Jooky]

Here's the Tex. Bus. & Comm. Code 101.001 – 101.005 referred too.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/BC/htm/BC.101.htm

I don't see anything about fingerprints being required, but probably it's cause I struggle with the English language.

Can someone from Manny's Medicine Show help me out?  

[Bruno]

For any agencies that fold because of IMBRA, it would be as Jack implied, their misdeeds would be their own undoing
...
Compliance is painless. For those who pained, there is an obvious reason why.

Have shutdown my second agency when the IMBRA was voted... my business plan was incompatible with it... mainly, my service was free for all "customer" only earning referal from other provider due to referal system ( translation, hotel, airplane, gift/flower, etc ... )...

At the time, a local lawyer have explain me that same if the site was free, since i was offering other pay service, IMBRA have can apply to me... having not the time to check the "public sex offender database" for all US customer and not having the financial resource to pay someone for translate everything in the native language of the lady, there was two choice... of i remove any referal service ( who was my only income ) or shutdown the site... have choose the last...

The IMBRA say "The definition also exempts nonprofit religious or cultural matchmaking services, and dating services that do not match U.S. citizens/residents with aliens as their principal business and that charge comparable rates and offer comparable services to all clients, regardless of gender or country of citizenship."... since i was with around 50% of US customer, a exempts will not have apply to me since US customers will have be my principal business...

Similar site like freepersonals.ru have not these problem since US customer are only 24% of their male customer... maybe if at the time, i was not a RWD members, i will have fewer US customer and i will have survive due to the exempts from the IMBRA...

These who have know me in the past can certify that my site was a honest one and have never know any complain ( unless you was a scammer )... but IMBRA can be the end for a lot of good free site... free site are not non-profit entities, we earn a little via publicity but not enough for support cost of the IMBRA ... and if we begin to charge US guy for the time used for seek in the "sex offender public database" and for the translation cost, it will not more be a free site...

Of course, for business with large benefice margin, IMBRA is not a problem... in fact, if all free dating/marriage site was to disappear due to IMBRA fear, it will be very beneficial for them...

[Maxx2]

Yeah.  I can't see how IMBRA would be a dealbreaker for a guy who had a clean criminal record.  IIRC IMBRA seems to really target those with former Domestic Violence Records--like Convictions.  Now, the salient argument could be made that those previous DV Convictions may not be the right fit for an FSU wife?  Or possibly even an American wife?  Or any wife?  

Anyway, I would guess only a small percentage of guys seeking an FSU wife have DV Convictions or Criminal Convictions.  So I don't see the big deal?  Or maybe alot do have criminal records?   

I do not have a criminal record. I have never had the police called on me in my life. I get along well with my first wife. I helped her move last week. I have two grown daughters that love me. Yet I do have a failed marriage to a foreign woman. A woman I divorced after consultations with immigration and divorce attorneys. A woman who two weeks after I filed the divorce and separated from her filed a restraining order on me in civil court (no rules of evidence). I maintain this was for her self petition called a I-360. Try explaining all of this on a form to a woman you have never met. I am not about to.

I was talking with a former South Minneapolis cop friend of mine, "TomSend". He used to post here. He told me most people have something questionable on their records. He said that it always looked suspicious to him when he did his investigations that someone would look like Mr. Clean. No divorces, no bankruptcies, no judgments, no liens, no DUIs, no arrests, no reckless driving (some guy on this forum told me about driving down a freeway while having sex. Stupid stuff like this done when young and stupid.), no nothing. But if people want to paint with a broad brush...

[Faux Pas]

Yeah.  I can't see how IMBRA would be a dealbreaker for a guy who had a clean criminal record.  IIRC IMBRA seems to really target those with former Domestic Violence Records--like Convictions.  Now, the salient argument could be made that those previous DV Convictions may not be the right fit for an FSU wife?  Or possibly even an American wife?  Or any wife?  

Anyway, I would guess only a small percentage of guys seeking an FSU wife have DV Convictions or Criminal Convictions.  So I don't see the big deal?  Or maybe alot do have criminal records?   

I agree with you here Tim and for "most" it's not a big deal. A nagging problem I have with it is the violation of a few of our most basic civil rights. I don't have a problem IMBRA's fundamental concern of keeping the wife beaters and criminals at home but, this isn't the way to do it. All looking to date abroad are being treated as a criminal. Today it is the MOB business. What will it extend to tomorrow?


Great post Jack! You know, since the last quarter of 2008, few businesses have been flourishing or doing well. MOB revenue is for the most part disposable income for those that spend it. I would see the MOBs as susceptible as entertainment and other non-essentials. It's been a tough 2 years for business worldwide. The doom sayers come out of the woodwork generally in all downturns

[Maxx2]

I agree with you here Tim and for "most" it's not a big deal. A nagging problem I have with it is the violation of a few of our most basic civil rights. I don't have a problem IMBRA's fundamental concern of keeping the wife beaters and criminals at home but, this isn't the way to do it. All looking to date abroad are being treated as a criminal. Today it is the MOB business. What will it extend to tomorrow?

I have the same belief and it is not because I am "hiding something". I do not believe in warrentless searches either.

My thought on IMBRA is that the USCIS does the background check and tells the visa petitioner at the embassy interview what her/his fiancee/fiance background is. Of course the visa sponsor should tell his/her fiancee/fiance before the interview what it is. I just wonder how many people here would not be married to the women they are if they disclosed everything about their background on some form their possible future wives would read? Suppose a guy in his fourties had a DUI when he was 19. The woman that would have been his wife had a terrible divorce from an alcoholic husband. He goes to meet her and it is apparent after they have spent time together that he has no drinking problem. But if he disclosed his youthful indiscretion on a IMBRA form they may never have met. Or if he is a scumbag no doubt about it with a record a mile long and she marries him anyway what might be her real motive?

[tfcrew]

tfcrew-

LOL. Did you notice who were the prime advertisers in that page?

 I did.

[erudite]

I agree with you here Tim and for "most" it's not a big deal. A nagging problem I have with it is the violation of a few of our most basic civil rights. I don't have a problem IMBRA's fundamental concern of keeping the wife beaters and criminals at home but, this isn't the way to do it. All looking to date abroad are being treated as a criminal. Today it is the MOB business. What will it extend to tomorrow?

If the United States Government or someone employed by the US Government with the powers behind them gets on to your trail for good or bad reasons, mistaken or factual reasons, malicious or vindictive reasons.................YOU ARE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT and it will cost you everything you own to prove your innocence or to obtain a lop sided ruling/verdict of so called "JUSTICE" that is a compromise.  The word "Justice" in the Bureaucratic Institution called Justice Department is an absolute misrepresentation because it is never about Justice.  It is about retribution, revenge, punitive punishment.  Certainly NOT about Justice as understood by the Laws and Morality of God or Mankind in general.

IMBRA was written probably for good intentions but as always will be misused for sinister purposes and it was not a well thought out law.  Lawyers like to write new laws and the Government likes to enforce them.  It is "good for business" for both.

[Voyager36]

the "nazi" mods on that board.

Gee, thanks Chivo.  :whirling:

[BC]

I really fail to see what the fuss in this thread is all about..

First, IMBRA does not prohibit anyone with a criminal record from marrying a woman from FSU, it only requires disclosure.  You can be convicted of being a serial rapist and your application will still go through.  The only limitation is that a serial rapist can try only a couple of times and with three strikes will probably not be able to get a waiver like the rest of those without violent/abuse criminal records. The woman will have to submit her police record also - why is it that WM declare some theoretical injustice for themselves but will not step up for their women?  Injustice is when someone is harmed by a law and not when someone thinks the law has harmed him/her in some intangible way.  TG is the perfect example with multiple back to back K's and an approved waiver... where's the harm there?  Is there anyone here with a criminal record that had their K application denied due to their record?  Till then it's a non issue.

Second, statistics have nothing to do with YOU!  If tomorrow all flights to FSU are canceled indefinitely, the number of K-1's will drop significantly, maybe down to 5% of last years figure.. but does that mean you only have a 5% chance of getting married to a FSU woman?.. certainly not.

So.. that said, what in the world is this thread really all about?  Where's the beef?

From the latest posts it seems it's all about external matters not even worthy of being posted here.

[dbneeley]

tfcrew-

LOL. Did you notice who were the prime advertisers in that page?

The citation on that page is incomplete. There are many sections "101.001" in the 1995 Texas Business and Commerce Code.

David