We'd like more foreign men to come to the city!

[SteveOR]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/10/ap/strange/main7337344.shtml

"Spokeswoman Eva Tornado claimed that tourism experts say foreign visitors avoid St. Petersburg in the winter because of the city's problems in dealing with its snow. She also proclaimed "we'd like more foreign men to come to the city!" "

Having returned from Kyiv just a few weeks ago, I can tell you that the ladies in the FSU are just as happy to meet with you in the winter as in the summer.  And now they are even putting out the request for more foreign men to visit.  Wow!

More pics here:

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2011/02/11/pretty-girls-will-save-us-from-snow/#more-36073

[mies]

And now they are even putting out the request for more foreign men to visit.  Wow!

More pics here:

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2011/02/11/pretty-girls-will-save-us-from-snow/#more-36073

In fact, the images that you quote as an "attraction for foreign men to visit" are a public response to two extremely tragic events that happened in St.Petersburg this winter.
On 01/13/2011 6yo old boy was killed by the ice that felt from the roof of his apartment building. That morning his grandma planned on taking child to the polyclinics, and as they walked out of the building and made few more steps - ice fell. Boy died immediately.
On 12/15/2010 waste removal truck ran over 2yo girl. The truck driver said that he partly lost control over his vehicle because of too much snow and ice, and partly - he could not maneuver nor see what was going on. There was a very narrow path that had to be shared by both pedestrians and cars. Girl was sitting on sled, while her mother was pulling them. Mother was physically unharmed, girl was killed basically before her eyes.

I think there also were few more cases when adult people were killed by ice that fell from roofs. Many more people, predominantly adults, regularly fell on ice and break bones or have their joints misplaced, and need lengthy recoveries.
In all these cases guilty is the city administration, that do not provide city cleaning from snow and ice.
 
I understand that you are a foreigner, and are unaware about local events. But there is nothing cute nor sexy about the photos that you've chosen to support your idea. These girls are not trying to attract attention of foreign men, or any men. They are trying to appeal to authorities and show that they are willing to get their city clean, and save lives, if authorities are incapable to doing the job.

[acctBill]

It's not just in St. Pete.  Moscow and probably any city in the FSU that gets extremely cold has a problem with falling icicles.  Every year you hear about falling icicles killing or injuring someone somewhere in Russia.  The city governments either makes light of it if no one dies or declares that "killer icicles" are just fantasies.  My inlaws say that it has been going on since they were kids, meaning that it happened in the communist era.  The Russian city governments just don't want to pay for proper maintenance and the same goes for private building owners.

[mies]

It's not just in St. Pete.  Moscow and probably any city in the FSU that gets extremely cold has a problem with falling icicles.  Every year you hear about falling icicles killing or injuring someone somewhere in Russia.  The city governments either makes light of it if no one dies or declares that "killer icicles" are just fantasies.  My inlaws say that it has been going on since they were kids, meaning that it happened in the communist era.  The Russian city governments just don't want to pay for proper maintenance and the same goes for private building owners.

sure, but St.Petersburg is getting most protest from their people, as there is a long history of citizens of the city criticizing authorities, and specifically the city mayor. For further information, if you are able to understand Russian - please see here: http://www.dirty.ru/comments/305372

[SteveOR]

In fact, the images that you quote as an "attraction for foreign men to visit" are a public response to two extremely tragic events that happened in St.Petersburg this winter.

The death of a child (ANY child) is tragic and my heart goes out the families of these children.  For those who are interested in reading more, the St. Peterburg Times article is here:

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=33380

However, I can't find any direct link between these deaths and the protests of the XZ group.  It looks like they are using charm and grace to embarass their city leaders for not clearing the snow from city streets, sidewalks and roofs.  After seeing the pictures on the English Russia website where the number of reporters and photographers outnumber the ladies, I would say that they are succeeding.  After all, their protests are now widely reported in the Western media.  A longer article about them is here:

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/12/in-stilettos-and-miniskirts-russian-activists-clear-the-snow/

The line: "We'd like more foreign men to come to the city!" is a direct quote of the leader of the XZ group, a lady who goes by the pseudonym "Eva Tornado".  I found this line to be interesting and something that men who read the Starting Out section of the Russian Women Discussion forum might also find interesting.  So I posted it. . .

[mies]

However, I can't find any direct link between these deaths and the protests of the XZ group.

How can you NOT see the link, if they are saying explicitly that objective of the campaign is "to save StPetersburg" from snow?
 

http://www.sosgorod.ru/component/k2/item/169-mashina-so-snegom-zadavila-horeografa.html
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9elrTlSLa4[/youtube]

The article in russian: says that 3 people (the girl i've mentioned before, and 2 more adults, the latest one - trainer of the Olympics reserve school) have died under trucks solely due to excessive snow on the streets.
The video: mayor and governor of StPetersburg at the press-conference in explanation why the city is not being cleaned from snow and ice, tells that removing icicles from roof with pinch-bar is an outdated method, and new methods should be found - for example using laser. Internet users promptly reacted and shown how the icicles should be removed with laser.  

When this is happening in the city, do you really think that foreign men is what these girls are most concerned with? Really?
I am thankful you posted it, but to me it looks like you totally miss the point of the whole thing. And in a way - mislead the other readers too.

[SteveOR]

Well. . . Since I don't speak Russian I don't understand what people are saying in the video but the Star Wars music and light saber are a nice touches.

When this is happening in the city, do you really think that foreign men is what these girls are most concerned with? Really?
I am thankful you posted it, but to me it looks like you totally miss the point of the whole thing. And in a way - mislead the other readers too.

Couldn't tell you what the ladies of the XZ group were thinking about or are most concerned with since I can't read minds.  I can only tell you what they said and the leader of their group is quoted as having said these words:  "We'd like more foreign men to come to the city!"

[mies]

did you write your reply before I actually gave explanation to the video? or you just didn't pay attention to it?
Oh, i see. You posted your comment at 12:05, I added explanation to the video at 11:02 pm. So you did not read my post, or possibly you process information selectively.

If you prefer to argue, you can take any phrase you like out of context and use it to defend your ideas. I presume this is the case.
You are also free to believe in anything you choose to. It will not change the reality.  

[Maxx2]

http://www.sosgorod.ru/component/k2/item/169-mashina-so-snegom-zadavila-horeografa.html
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9elrTlSLa4[/youtube]


The video: mayor and governor of StPetersburg at the press-conference in explanation why the city is not being cleaned from snow and ice, tells that removing icicles from roof with pinch-bar is an outdated method, and new methods should be found - for example using laser. Internet users promptly reacted and shown how the icicles should be removed with laser.  

You do understand that the laser at the end of the video with the Star Wars music was a joke? It was done by CGI. There isn't any "light sabers" as far as I know.

[Jumper]

Mies-
Thanks for elaborating  on the issues and what it was really about,
that's tragic.



for what its worth I can easily see why Steveor posted it as he did

here is the entirety of the original article he read and posted?

 Perhaps the blame is more the AP reporters for being sensationalists and selective in Eva Tornadoes words?
and their presentation, as i don't see anyone not familiar with the situation could get much else out of it?
Certainly not the tragic story you have now shown to be the real issue.


***************
(AP)  ST. PETERSBURG, Russia (AP) - Too much snow and not enough beaus - so says a squad of mini-skirted, high-heeled young women wielding snow shovels in Russia's second city.

Seven women dressed for maximum hotness came to the frigid square in front of St. Petersburg's Kazan Cathedral on Thursday to chip away at snow and ice and demand better city snow removal.

They're affiliated with XZ, a local group that uses beautiful women to draw attention to social problems.

Spokeswoman Eva Tornado claimed that tourism experts say foreign visitors avoid St. Petersburg in the winter because of the city's problems in dealing with its snow. She also proclaimed "we'd like more foreign men to come to the city!"
***********


Nothing more is in the first story or link other than a  photo and headline.
It's just  human interests news blurb..
not a very good one it turns out, as it paints entirely the wrong picture.

 boos and hisses should be at CBS news ...?

[mies]

for what its worth I can easily see why Steveor posted it as he did here is the entirety of the original article he read and posted?

Ok, yes, I agree with you. I admit, I reacted too sensitively - because something that is a real tragedy first was presented with a "twist" by X-Z group, and then completely egocentrically perceived and misinterpreted by Steve.
I just cannot conceive how someone can be so convinced of own value for "Russian women", that even when I tell him "the real problem is snow, it is dangerous, authorities do nothing" he responds "no, this is really nothing and totally unrelated to campaign, these girls just want to attract foreign men with their high-heeled boots". How can anyone be so narcissistic?
For one, there were TWO statements made by X-Z "we are suffering from snow" and "we need foreigners", so Steve focused on "we need foreigners", and because "we are suffering from snow" did not fit into his picture of "Russian women are craving for WMs" he completely omitted it.

No wonder some of these guys are so easily fooled by scammers with "oh sure, I love you for who you are just send me money and take me to USA" for they cannot see an inch beyond the surface of the words.  

Specially for you, Steve:
http://www.utro.ru/articles/2010/10/06/927463.shtml?gallery0

explanation: this is an erotic calendar prepared by journalism students (all "models" in the calendar are students of journalism) for the Russian Prime minister Putin. You can press the page numbers and see all pages in the calendar.
You can take it for its face value, since of course you cannot read the minds of the girls.  

[Rubicon]

Ok, yes, I agree with you. I admit, I reacted too sensitively - because something that is a real tragedy first was presented with a "twist" by X-Z group, and then completely egocentrically perceived by Steve.
I just cannot conceive how someone can be so convinced of own value for "Russian women", that even when I tell him "the real problem is snow, it is dangerous, authorities do nothing" he responds "no, this is really nothing and totally unrelated to campaign, these girls just want to attract foreign men with their high-heeled boots". How can anyone be so narcissistic?
For one, there were TWO statements made by X-Z "we are suffering from snow" and "we need foreigners", so Steve focused on "we need foreigners", and because "we are suffering from snow" did not fit into his picture of "Russian women are craving for WMs" he completely omitted it.

No wonder some of these guys are so easily fooled by scammers with "oh sure, I love you for who you are just send me money and take me to USA" for they cannot see an inch beyond the surface of the words.  

Mies,

you are ignoring the fact that these women might be being paid to do this stunt by the hotels.  you also have not noticed that they did this stunt in front of video cameras which thru the internet give the world a live view of the weather in St Petersburg.  also, the hotels made comments that new men making reservations to visit said that they wanted to meet the women from X Z and maybe help them shovel snow.

[mies]

Mies,

you are ignoring the fact that these women might be being paid to do this stunt by the hotels.  you also have not noticed that they did this stunt in front of video cameras which thru the internet give the world a live view of the weather in St Petersburg.  also, the hotels made comments that new men making reservations to visit said that they wanted to meet the women from X Z and maybe help them shovel snow.

Rubicon, I am not ignoring it.
Imagine Louisiana after Katrina. Many people are appealing to the state and FEMA for help. All people who live in the affected area are suffering consequences. Imagine few people from that area decide to give their appeals an unusual twist. Any kind of. Does it change the fact that there is a disaster in the area? Does it change the fact that these people are suffering from this disaster just like everyone else? They say "please, help us recover from disaster, and also let us participate in a dance contest."

And then a person from Alaska tells "you know, I don't really see the link between disaster and the appeal of these people. They just want to get to that dance contest badly."
 :noidea:

[Rubicon]

these XZ girls must be really really bad at communication, because no where do I see them making a link between the accidents and between their desires for more tourists.  so maybe that is also a desire or wish, and maybe they are afraid to directly criticise the government and we are supposed to read between the lines; who knows.  I prefer direct and honest communication.

[mies]

these XZ girls must be really really bad at communication, because no where do I see them making a link between the accidents and between their desires for more tourists.  so maybe that is also a desire or wish, and maybe they are afraid to directly criticise the government and we are supposed to read between the lines; who knows.  I prefer direct and honest communication.

Rubicon, maybe it's just a cultural clash, and the information is magically lost between RUssian mouths (or hands in case of typing) and American ears (or eyes - in case of reading).

The girls are good in communication. Here is an article about their campaign:
http://www.sosgorod.ru/component/k2/item/136-peterburg-spasut-ot-snega-devushki-v-mini.html


"Красота спасет мир! - считают участницы движения, - Мы уверены, что наша акция не останется не замеченной, и нашему примеру последуют все, кто хочет видеть улицы своего города чистыми", - утверждает руководитель движения Елисеева Александра.

"Иностранцы через онлайн-камеры, такие как на сайте портала "Гостиницы Санкт-Петербурга" видят состояние нашего города и отказываются к нам ехать. Если мы очистим захватываемые камерами территории, то они снова поедут в Петербург", -уверена участница движения."

Translation of girl's speech:
"Beauty will save the world! We believe that our campaign will not remain unnoticed, and our example will be followed by everyone who wants to see the streets of our city clean" - claimed by the leader of the (XZ) movement Eliseeva Aleksandra.
"Foreigners through online/realtime cameras, such as at the website Hotels of SPb see the condition of our city and refuse to come here. If we will clean the territories shown by cameras, foreigners will start coming to Petersburg again."

StPetersburg is a beautiful city with rich history. Visitors come to see it for its history, beauty, art, architecture. It is considered to be artistic and intellectual capital of the RUssian Federation. People who live there are proud of their city, and they proudly share it with foreign visitors. They aren't trying to advertise their women, because the city has other, much more valuable and unique things to offer to tourists.  

As you can see - in this statement the leader of XZ clearly indicates that they want to see the city clean, and hope that everyone else will follow their example. Further, they say that snow is not only a nuisance to locals, but also prevents foreigners from coming (note that she doesn't say "foreign men" or "foreign bachelors"). And if the city is at least cleaned in the places which foreigners see - it will make foreigners willing to come again. This statement is made to explain why they specifically clean around cameras, and not in some quiet sleeping districts - whereas sleeping districts have even more severe problem. Of course these girls clean around the places with cameras because this way they can attract more attention. Maybe they also reached some agreement with the website about Petersburg hotels. But this is just a minor detail.

As for whether they should refer to tragic deaths - they do not need to. Because everyone in StPetersburg knows about these cases. It's like whenever an American says "we want to prevent the acts of terrorism" - he does not need to refer each time to 9/11. But every other american will think about this tragic event.

Eva Tornado who is quoted in the original post by Steve and is called a "spokeswoman" making it sound as if she is a spokeswoman for XZ, in reality is a press-secretary (http://www.sosgorod.ru/component/k2/itemlist/user/63-evatornado.html) of the "Center for Creation of News "Provocation"" (http://csn-pro.ru/) - she is not directly associated with XZ. She basically acted as a journalist, when described the events. She did not speak on behalf of XZ (contrary to the impression made by cbsnews), she interviewed the leader of the (XZ) movement Eliseeva Aleksandra, and quoted Eliseeva's words in her article. The quote said "foreigners", not "foreign men". "Foreigners" technically means both men and women.

And here is the analysis of the campaign and of the XZ organization by a director of local PR agency: http://koptev-anatoliy.livejournal.com/90547.html


I hope this time I managed to deliver my point better.  

[mies]

correction of the last paragraph in previous post: the guy is also a PR manager of the XZ movement.
Quoting him: "В городе есть проблема уборки снега и нужно было вновь сделать эту проблемум актуальной для администрации. Если бы мы сделали оппозиционную акцию, то прессы было бы гораздо меньше. Нужно еще что-то объяснять?"

Translation: "the city has problem with the snow, and we needed to make this campaign urgent for the administration. If we made an opposition campaign, we would get much less press. Do you need any further explanation?"

[SteveOR]

Mies-

When I originally posted this I did not intent or expect it to create such controversy.  I was only posting a human interest story from Russia that had made its way to the Western media.  The content of the story as it was printed is of interest to me and might be to other men who are interested in finding and marrying a lady from Russia or the FSU.  No insult was intended to you, Russia or the Russian people.

It's obvious that there is more to this story and that sharing it is very important to you.  I and maybe others would be happy to discuss it with you further but I don't think that the Starting Out section is a good place to continue discussions about dead children, political corruption or government incompetence.

Mies, if you start a new thread about the XZ Movement in a more appropriate section I would join you there to discuss further.  Maybe the Anything Goes section or Odds and Ends or The Russian Front.  Maybe the mods. can make a suggestion.

-Steve

[mies]

Steve, thank you for your generous offer.
I'm cool. Don't think there's anything else that needs further discussion. If you feel the thread should be moved to a different section, or completely removed - I do not have any objections. As a final pinch (I know, i can be unpleasant at times): if you want to do international dating, or international marriage - you need to learn to trust opinion of foreign person about their country.

[Kunstkammer]

I was only posting a human interest story from Russia that had made its way to the Western media. 

Its not a 'human interest' story though, it is a part of a city wide grassroots effort to make this suka take responsibility for one of her many mismanagements running the city.  And this one is getting people killed and injured.  The main problem is lack of coordination (big shock) in snow removal from roofs and a large amount of apathy from the yard keepers and people hired to remove snow.  You can be walking down the street in the busiest part of the day, say on a major route to the metro station.  5 houses in a row, on both sides of the street will be removing snow by shovel throwing it on to the sidewalk.  This closes the sidewalk on both sides.  People have to get to the metro, they walk in the street.  They are hit by cars, they cause collision with other cars.  Why?  Because the workers can't or don't care enough to communicate with each other, to make a schedule since they want to hurry up and get their work done.  People on the street or hazards they create of little concern to them.  Most of these workers are under the employ of the city government or contracted by the government.  The government could do something, but instead chooses to say there is no problem.  All the while people are being hurt.  This is one of many protests about this serious issue, which is not a 'human interest story'

[Kunstkammer]

Also, more foreign men would certainly help with the snow removal considering all the people that do it are foreigners.

[JR]

Icicles?

What icicles?

That window is six feet tall))

[viking]

I once was involved with a woman from St. Pete. Her 17yo daughter was killed in a car accident because the car her boy friend was driving skidded on a icy/snowy road, in the city centre. The police did little to help and any issues about the roads fell on deaf ears. One of her last remarks I still remember from many years ago. ""Life is Russia is cheap"".

[Wayne]

Icicles form on a roof because of several reasons:

Not enough insulation on the attic floor.

Heat rises into the attic and melts the snow from underneath; The water runs down to the overhang and freezes.  As it continues to drip, the icicles get longer and thicker.

The attic is not ventilated. If it was properly ventilated, the temperature in the attic would remain below freezing and no snow would melt from underneath.

So the solution is NOT to keep removing the snow and ice, but to prevent the ice from forming in the first place.

In a new building, proper design and constructionn eliminates this problem.  In an existing building, adding insulation and ventilation could solve the problem. As a last resort, installing electic heating cables in the overhang of the roof can melt away the ice as it forms.

[Kunstkammer]

Icicles form on a roof because of several reasons:

Not enough insulation on the attic floor.

Heat rises into the attic and melts the snow from underneath; The water runs down to the overhang and freezes.  As it continues to drip, the icicles get longer and thicker.

The attic is not ventilated. If it was properly ventilated, the temperature in the attic would remain below freezing and no snow would melt from underneath.

So the solution is NOT to keep removing the snow and ice, but to prevent the ice from forming in the first place.

In a new building, proper design and constructionn eliminates this problem.  In an existing building, adding insulation and ventilation could solve the problem. As a last resort, installing electic heating cables in the overhang of the roof can melt away the ice as it forms.

I don't think you understand.. the snow must be removed from the roof, not only for the prevention of icicles, but to relive the weight on the roof.  You also clearly don't understand that 'adding insulation and ventilation' to an apartment building in Russia is not the easiest thing to do because of the consensus that must be obtained by all registered occupants.  For instance, the fuses and many electrical cables need replaced in my building, because the fuses get blown easy when there is a high load on them (like when people run space heaters in the winter) 65% (or some number) is required for repairs to common areas to be done.  (Those in government owned apartments are automatically a yes vote) These repairs would cost around 700 RUB a month per registered resident for 2 years i think.  Most people who can vote, vote to sit in the dark for an hour or so a night in the winter waiting for the yard keeper to go reset the fuse than pay money.

So your whole "all you need to do is ____" thing is not always within the realm of reality in Russia.

[JR]

No mud slinging here but the above is a clear example of both being right but only one works in the real world. ))

P.S. Now I know where you got your name Kuntskammer though it's one of the places I didn't get to see((