Misreading Signals

[XMan]

There are times I think I've been doing this so long that I analyze things too much.
But rather than delve into that, I'll try to stick to a specific question.

In the past I have generally viewed getting contacted first by a woman as something to be questioned.  But does it vary by site? 

In other words, if contacted first on a site similar to Anastasia, I would suspect immediately a "pay-by-the-letter, agency needs the money" scenario.  Therefore it would be highly unlikely the woman would be interested, assuming she was actually real.

But what about sites like Elena's Models (a place with a much better reputation)? 
Normal to be contacted first? 

And what about a "free" site like Lucky Lovers (or one of the many others)? 
What if the letter is a "and please contact me at my e-mail address xyz@someplace.com?"
That seems immediately suspicious. 

Curious as to thoughts / experiences.
Thanks.

[Jumper]

Eveyone is different.

I try and read nothing into an initial contact,other than she *might* be interested.The same as if i contacted some random profile on the big wide web.

I viewed it as it could be insincere, it could be sincere.Know way to know
,an no reason to sweat it..
So i treated it no different than someone replying to my contact,
with them getting the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.

If the person seemed intertesting i'd strike up correspondence and see where it led.Time generally tells things fairly quickly.
I would try to remian rather neutral expecting things to be a wash , and hope to be surprised.
 Granted where the contact originated might make me notice little nuances in the conversation more, or have less expectation that it would turn out sincere,
 but i tried to keep an open mind , with eyes wide open as well.

For what it's worth,
my last adventure, in this, i contacted no one first.
Simply put up a profile, that i felt showed a bit of who i was and what i was looking for,
and answered those contacts that seemed to have some promise of compatabilty.

Despite being incredibly happy with the results, it's not a method i'd recommend.
I'm just stating the general rules are just that, general guidelines,
and i tend to not pay much attention to them,in a game as silly as romance.

As far as vetting out initial contacts for insincerety or different motives, it just doesnt seem that hard to do, it just takes some communication, and i had the time.
I have to say that if i made all the initial contacts, i don't think it would have been any faster vetting process.

[Jumper]

What if the letter is a "and please contact me at my e-mail address xyz@someplace.com?"
That seems immediately suspicious

To me this part would depend on the content of the letter?

but in my experience after going through  those, I never wrote back to someone whose initial contact included that phrase,who did not end up seeming quite sincere,and generally willing to move to skype or to meet .

some sites by their nature, would lean towards one getting  that type
of contact request - personal email,
and some it would be unexpected! (like anastasia)
but would actually generally be a sign of sincerety on that type of site

Anyway ,I viewed things that if  the letter seemed interesting , then reply!
Whats the worst that can happen?

I take far larger risks than that,just  putting on my shoes.


 
 

[Lily]

In the past I have generally viewed getting contacted first by a woman as something to be questioned.  But does it vary by site? 
 

That makes me smile. It does vary from a woman to a woman I tend to agree with AJ on that.

But at the same time, please note that as a woman, I don't have anything to do with scammers, and would even not know about their existence, if not this site Therefore, my post would be only about live women, not pretenders or scammers or the likes.

[mies]

There are times I think I've been doing this so long that I analyze things too much.
But rather than delve into that, I'll try to stick to a specific question.

In the past I have generally viewed getting contacted first by a man as something to be questioned.  But does it vary by site? 

In other words, if contacted first on a site similar to XYZ, I would suspect immediately a "keyboard Romeo" scenario.  Therefore it would be highly unlikely the man would be interested, assuming he was actually real i.e. telling his real name and describing his real life, goals, occupation, and marital status.

But what about sites like Elena's Models (a place with a much better reputation)? 
Normal to be contacted first? 

And what about a "free" site like Lucky Lovers (or one of the many others)? 
What if the letter is a "and please contact me at my e-mail address xyz@someplace.com?"
That seems immediately suspicious. 

Curious as to thoughts / experiences.
Thanks.

[Jumper]

Mies 

[JR]

Mies 

I think she's trying to say that she has no opinion upon the matter)))

[The Natural]

But what about sites like Elena's Models (a place with a much better reputation)? 
Normal to be contacted first? 
 
What if the letter is a "and please contact me at my e-mail address xyz@someplace.com?"
That seems immediately suspicious. 

Curious as to thoughts / experiences.
Thanks.

I was contacted first by a woman at EM and she also gave her e-mail in the first letter. And she is definetely real, so I wouldn't view those behaviours as a red flag.

[Kuna]

When I was searching I had my little list of what I was looking for and I was very specific when writing to ladies (EM's and freepersonals.ru).  I didn't respond to any incoming enquiries because I'd spend HOURS AND HOURS searching the databases for girls/women of interest to me and while I knew a genuine lady might send the first enquiry I wanted to stick to my process.

I did get initial contacts, I didn't respond.  I worked on the list of ladies of interest to me and whittled them down to a few before my trip.

The process worked for me and I avoided the scammers...  it's not the only way to go though.

btw...  there was one girl I was quite serious about meeting and she was at one stage my favourite (I guess) but the letters changed at one point by telling me how hard life was, how she needed new winter clothes, and new winter boots were going to cost her $400 and she didn't know how she would pay for them.  It was enough of a suggestion for me to stop replying because I figured a woman wanting money from someone she'd never met - even if she was genuine - was not hte type of woman I was interested in.

[Aloe]

I have written this post multiple times. Here it goes again..
When you sign up on EM as a woman, it suggests you in bold red font to take initiative and write to men, so i thought ok, water doesn't come under a still rock. So i spent like 10 hours and looked through all the platinum/gold members profiles(after 10 hrs i ran out of patience) and found 10 men i was interested in. I was looking through pictures, if i saw a picture i liked, i read the profile, if i liked both profile and picture, then i sent a message, so there was 10 men out of dunno how many that i liked.
Little did i know that if i wrote first i'll just get written off as a red flag scammer, haha.
One of those men replied to me that i'm too young for him, i replied to him let's give it a try, what's the harm in it? You never know what life got in stock for you.. To that he replied that i'm a scammer and if i'm not a scammer, then i'll marry him and divorce him and take half of his stuff   Talk about paranoid.

[Ade]

Those men that write women off for no other reason than because the women contacted them first are just being silly. But then again, there are many weird and wonderful men in this game and from what I've seen and heard, there are far more of them and keyboard Romeos than there are women scammers...

FWIW, my awesome wife contacted me first.... but there were many others that also contacted me first that I ignored completely, not because they contacted me but because of what their emails contained...

[Daveman]

I think she's trying to say that she has no opinion upon the matter)))

She is actively engaging Xman in the reflective therapeutic process... 

[Daveman]

One of those men replied to me that i'm too young for him, i replied to him let's give it a try, what's the harm in it? You never know what life got in stock for you.. To that he replied that i'm a scammer and if i'm not a scammer, then i'll marry him and divorce him and take half of his stuff   Talk about paranoid.

.... Wow Aloe! I didn't know that was you!  :evil: 

Those men that write women off for no other reason than because the women contacted them first are just being silly. But then again, there are many weird and wonderful men in this game and from what I've seen and heard, there are far more of them and keyboard Romeos than there are women scammers...
...

I've arrived at the pretty much the same conclusion.  I've never had a problem with scammers or insincere women.  Certainly they exist but not in the numbers worried about.  I was contacted first by some women on EM that gave me some weird vibes so I didn't bother with them.  Perhaps a total of 10 or less - off and on during a five year span.  Others were just wanting to get to know the coolest guy in the world, and who could blame them?  So I guess they wasted a little time with me until he came along.  

What is funny to me (and this is not directed at Xman, or anyone in particular) is that men get into this to meet a "hot woman", and then when one appears, they immediate begin to freak out. Good lord.. I was more on the look out for the signs of the "entitlement" attitude, or other silly values/beliefs than any type of scam. I think the chances of rushing into being rather miserable with an incompatible "hot woman" are much greater than being scammed by one, regardless of who contacts whom initially.

I agree that this "woman making first contact" question depends on the site as well as the woman.  If I were on a pay per keystroke (minipun intended)  site, yeah, it would be difficult for me to take any first contact seriously. 

[Turboguy]

To that he replied that i'm a scammer and if i'm not a scammer, then i'll marry him and divorce him and take half of his stuff  

You should have written back and said "Do you think I look like Santa Clause.  What makes you think I will be so generous as to leave you with half or even a quarter? "

[Kuna]

I don't think it's silly to be selective in the process.

Of course there are genuine women who would take the initiative to contact a man,  but if a man does his ground work and selects all those he is interested in then there shouldn't be a problem rejecting the initial contacts from "others" in the database.

When considering my approach something I was adamant in was reducing the risks.  Why subject myself or a future marriage to more risk that the process HAD TO BE.

I think I wrote about this when I was going through my letter writing...  but my "acceptable age range" was 27 - 32 (from memory) as I was 37(ish) and not wanting to marry younger than that (because of the risks) or much older than that (because I wanted children - and the risks).  I saw my (now) wife's profile on Freepersonals night after night while I was looking through the profiles but she was 26... and that was outside of my "acceptable age range."   

Obviously you have to be flexible, and I was, and I eventually sent her a personalised, well thought out letter,  asked some questions, gave some background on myself,  explained my upcoming trip.. and waited for the response.

When the response came it said, "You have no photo on your profile, please send one."  That was it.  I had to laugh... here was someone as critical and clinical as me!   

See, I also put scant information in my profile(s) so anyone sending me an expression of interest was purely speculating on me being another hormone driven fantasist...  but I wanted to drive this process.

I think the approach is a valid one for newbies.  We see in here over and over again men getting lost in the fantasy of FSUW.  If more started with a critical mind and less of a dream there wouldn't be so many train wrecks.

Each to their own though....  obviously some have success getting studio photos done to exagerate their good looks... They'll lay their hearts (or wallets) out in a profile.  They'll select sites that appear to have the hottest babes... and then they'll struggle to respond to the 50 expressions of interest they get a day.

Less fantasy - more reality would be my advice to any man who's serious about finding an honest girl in FSU. 

The guys who are single after years of searching and many trips really need to take a hard look at themselves to see what they are doing wrong.  If there are so many wonderful women in FSU why can't they capture just one heart?  IMHO it's because they've not managed the risks well enough.

[Ade]

I don't think it's silly to be selective in the process.

There's absolutely no reason to think that you're reducing the risk of being scammed by ignoring women contacting you just because they were the ones doing the contacting. Absolutely none. Sorry, but to say otherwise is silly and I would bet your left testicle that just as many men have fallen afoul of insincere women that they have contacted first.

So, being selective is fine as long as the criteria being used are based on sensible reasons and not reasons that will actually reduce the chances of meeting the right woman.

[Kuna]

There's absolutely no reason to think that you're reducing the risk of being scammed by ignoring women contacting you just because they were the ones doing the contacting. Absolutely none. Sorry, but to say otherwise is silly and I would bet your left testicle that just as many men have fallen afoul of insincere women that they have contacted first.

So, being selective is fine as long as the criteria being used are based on sensible reasons and not reasons that will actually reduce the chances of meeting the right woman.

I think you are a little slow... Read my post again. 

If you put a profile up with no photo and scant information about yourself and you are getting expressions of interest from hot young babes it's fair to say you're profile is being farmed by Fat Yuri.

I'm not saying it's the only way to go about this search, but rejecting incoming contacts under these circumstances IS A POSITIVE WAY OF REDUCING YOUR RISKS.

 

Sorry, but to say otherwise is silly and I would bet your left testicle that just as many men have fallen afoul of insincere women that they have contacted first.

I'm glad you bet MY left testicle and not your own...

If a man writes to 50 women of his choosing and responds to the 200 expressions of interest he gets he will be sure to hit more scammers than if he selected 50 women carefully that were of interest and just wrote to them.

Hold onto those testicles matey...  with logic like yours you're sure to lose them at some point (if you've got any left!)

[Faux Pas]

Xman

FWIW, I wouldn't discount any woman just because she initiated first contact especially on EM. Base your action on the contact. If she took the time to send a tiny personalized note, pay attention enough to look deeper. Especially so if she includes direct contact info, it's worth looking deeper IMO. Check out her info and if there's the slightest bit of interest send her a note back. Too many times in this pursuit  guys want "everything" on their own terms. IMO, in the normal course of budding boy meets girl relationships, one must step outside the box and comfort zone and allow other independent thought to enter.

[Daveman]

I don't think it's silly to be selective in the process.

Absolutely agree.. both during the search, and then after meeting, during the relationship building process, right up until the time one becomes certain about "marriage".

Of course there are genuine women who would take the initiative to contact a man,  but if a man does his ground work and selects all those he is interested in then there shouldn't be a problem rejecting the initial contacts from "others" in the database.

When considering my approach something I was adamant in was reducing the risks.  Why subject myself or a future marriage to more risk that the process HAD TO BE.

I think I wrote about this when I was going through my letter writing...  but my "acceptable age range" was 27 - 32 (from memory) as I was 37(ish) and not wanting to marry younger than that (because of the risks) or much older than that (because I wanted children - and the risks).  I saw my (now) wife's profile on Freepersonals night after night while I was looking through the profiles but she was 26... and that was outside of my "acceptable age range."  

Obviously you have to be flexible, and I was, and I eventually sent her a personalised, well thought out letter,  asked some questions, gave some background on myself,  explained my upcoming trip.. and waited for the response.

When the response came it said, "You have no photo on your profile, please send one."  That was it.  I had to laugh... here was someone as critical and clinical as me!  

See, I also put scant information in my profile(s) so anyone sending me an expression of interest was purely speculating on me being another hormone driven fantasist...  but I wanted to drive this process.

I think the approach is a valid one for newbies.  We see in here over and over again men getting lost in the fantasy of FSUW.  If more started with a critical mind and less of a dream there wouldn't be so many train wrecks.

Each to their own though....  obviously some have success getting studio photos done to exagerate their good looks... They'll lay their hearts (or wallets) out in a profile.  They'll select sites that appear to have the hottest babes... and then they'll struggle to respond to the 50 expressions of interest they get a day.

Less fantasy - more reality would be my advice to any man who's serious about finding an honest girl in FSU.  

Again, I agree.  

The guys who are single after years of searching and many trips really need to take a hard look at themselves to see what they are doing wrong.  If there are so many wonderful women in FSU why can't they capture just one heart?  IMHO it's because they've not managed the risks well enough.

Self assessment is always a continual process of success in any endeavor.  But, here's where we diverge a little.. I don't think NOT being married after several trips, or years, is necessarily indicative of any type of failure or doing something "wrong", or even being unable to capture the heart of just one.  Sometimes managing the risks involves choosing to "just say no" to a current relationship as a direct result of your adage above "less fantasy - more reality" which only *truly* occurs as relations develop and grow over time as you share a variety of experiences together.

I would probably be considered an "ultimate" example of taking it slowly in this process.  That mentality cost me some early relationships (not to mention the time and money involved) because I refused to get on the marriage fast track. So be it.  I was true to myself so I can live with that. I'm extremely picky and focused on the type of partner I need to live with in a rough estimate of harmonious environment and refuse to settle for less... regardless of how long it takes to find exactly that type of woman.

Overall though, I agree with your points, and even the last one about self assessment.  

[XMan]

I have written this post multiple times. Here it goes again..
When you sign up on EM as a woman, it suggests you in bold red font to take initiative and write to men, so i thought ok, water doesn't come under a still rock. So i spent like 10 hours and looked through all the platinum/gold members profiles(after 10 hrs i ran out of patience) and found 10 men i was interested in. I was looking through pictures, if i saw a picture i liked, i read the profile, if i liked both profile and picture, then i sent a message, so there was 10 men out of dunno how many that i liked.
Little did i know that if i wrote first i'll just get written off as a red flag scammer, haha.
One of those men replied to me that i'm too young for him, i replied to him let's give it a try, what's the harm in it? You never know what life got in stock for you.. To that he replied that i'm a scammer and if i'm not a scammer, then i'll marry him and divorce him and take half of his stuff   Talk about paranoid.

 :evil:

[XMan]

She is actively engaging Xman in the reflective therapeutic process... 

Reflective, yes.
Therapeutic, if only....

[XMan]

Xman

FWIW, I wouldn't discount any woman just because she initiated first contact especially on EM. Base your action on the contact. If she took the time to send a tiny personalized note, pay attention enough to look deeper. Especially so if she includes direct contact info, it's worth looking deeper IMO. Check out her info and if there's the slightest bit of interest send her a note back. Too many times in this pursuit  guys want "everything" on their own terms. IMO, in the normal course of budding boy meets girl relationships, one must step outside the box and comfort zone and allow other independent thought to enter.

Interesting seeing the different perspectives.  Interesting points to consider as well.
Thanks.

FP, you are reliably a voice of reason.    

I am very curious, Aloe, what was the difference in age?   ???

I had a similar experience (though I did not call the woman a scammer).  A woman 20 years younger contacted me on a legitimate site.  I thanked her and said the difference in age was too great.  I got a nearly identical response, why not try?  But seriously, 20 years.  I mean, OK, I am sure there are cases it works.  But I think rarely.  And I had also reached a point of not wanting to put out so much effort and come up empty 6 months later.  But I really don't know (nor do I wish to start another age thread, god forbid) what I am comfortable with.  Depends upon maturity and likes, I suppose.  If she wants to skydive and snorkel (for example), uh, not really.  (Call AJ instead!)  I didn't want to do it when I was a teenager, and no desire now.

Regarding EM, I am considering a couple of recent contacts.  Perhaps for real.  Or not.  Who knows.
But FP, you have a point.

I've reached a point of reading between the lines so much that I am not seeing the actual lines themselves clearly. 
Time for some corrective action.

See ya....

[Jumper]

Kuna-
Of course nothing wrong with your method at all.
In fact it's a good one for guys starting out.
and in the particular case of a profile being put up intentionally with limited info and no photos ,
 you have a point on initial contacts.
Yet most men put up a photo, and fill out a reasonable degree of information.so that changes things a bit? unless they follow your method exactly.

To SJ's point ,  he is not talking about the odds of being contacted by a possible scammer ,
but about the odds of being actually scammed, that is a big difference?

I agree with his point that you have no more odds of actually being scammed, by women you've contacted  ,or women that contacted you.
After all the man parting with his wallet, is the common ingredient in the actual scam.

mies and aloe (and many other RW here) make perfect examples of why a man should not freak out because a woman took the initiative to  write to him.
He is after all writing women!!!!  lol and it is assumed his profile is on a social networking or dating website. The irony here slays me a bit

Funny, in Aloes case, *if* she had written me,
 i would have been her only reply not filled with some paranoia.

so single men , are you actually listening to the RW previously or currently involved?

Her experience from many RW i've spoken to  , is somewhat typical.
In fact hers seems rather mild, although she hasn't gone  into depth on the subject.
The shear numbers of married men, keyboard romeo's , and downright weird men ,
really should give you an edge, if you'd care to reply.

A boatload of men take themselves right out of the situation, at the stage that its only an email!! Sorry, that just blows my mind, and I've seen it often.
 Granted i take risks in stride, so an email or two seems very very far below my radar,
but i can't imagine anyone with a sheltered enough life , that an email or two is actually *risky*
   The only thing i can see is that it being viewed as a waste of time.

 The men that take themselves out later , due to insecurity over a long distance relationship are legion! Sad to say but in a decade of watching this from most every angle,
if a man simply has half a grain of common sense and self confidence,he has it pretty easy amongst his competitors,even amongst that few percent that actually travel..

Anyway, answering some initial contacts by women, (equally vetted those, as he does to  the replies he gets by contacting some profile he liked)
should not increase  a mans risks of actually being scammed ,if he has common sense and his eyes aren't shut.You can tell if she has read your profile, you don't lose anything but time by replying.
 It should naturally  increase a man's odds of finding someone.

It's fine to pick a program and stick to it!!

 I certainly did!  although mine was the opposite, in only answering those who contacted me first.
rather silly method ,but for arguments sake you could say it saves some time initially, as at the
very least those contacting you have some motivation to do so,and generally you can spot sincerity pretty quickly and easily.
(for what its worth i posted a regular non posed, non professional, photo taken in some random situation, by friends)

In either choice , I recognize it as limiting possibilities ,not expanding them.
and  I see no more  danger of being actually scammed..
in fact i don't sweat that in the first place.what's someone going to get? a dinner or taxi ride ? good on them if they do!
I refuse to live my life worrying over such trivia, and would find it more amusing at their level of skill to do so,than anything else,and find another date.

 I truly believe for every scammer , there's 150 men that blow themselves up over insecurity and  paranoia. (of course one scamer can take 150 naive men to the bank, so it evens the playing field?)
 

I should note,that  i'd advise Kuna's method over my own.
and yet i'd feel a mix of the two would have the greater possibilty..
it amounts to what you have time for..and feels right to the individual.

[LAman]

 I agree that this "woman making first contact" question depends on the site as well as the woman.  If I were on a pay per keystroke (minipun intended)  site, yeah, it would be difficult for me to take any first contact seriously. 

I agree with Daveman depends on site, those ppl's are designed for first contacts and 99% of them(both ways) are form letters, waste of money. I have no problem with girl making first contact since I my 'age range' is on the wide side but I can quickly gage a girl's sincereity. I don't agree with personal contact in first couple letters.....which means everybody gets that info.
As far as Xmans thoughts on '20yr old age gap' women, you HAVE to have some common interests, I have no probs with late night dancin, water sports, parasailing, so what if heart rate goes past 100!!!!  

[Jumper]

Xman-
 You've hit more than your share of snags, so it seems normal to question things.. both
the entire pursuit, and the specifics of it.
 

If she wants to skydive and snorkel (for example), uh, not really.  (Call AJ instead!)  I didn't want to do it when I was a teenager, and no desire now.

You know what YOU want, and what's compatible with you.
Far ahead of the game, as many men don't.


and yes yes, they SHOULD call me!
 (i've had a few RW do that in the past,you'd be surprised how easily someone can research your number if they have a name and any motivation)
and you know what? just like when they write me, i'll  answer the phone!
it's amazing the possibilities that can come up in life, if you are open to them

Ok granted , don't call me now, i'm off the market.