How young is too young

[Aloe]

I have to say that the first photo with the stuffed toy and the little dolls really certainly highlights to me that she is certainly way too young. 

Those look like gifts, what can you do if someone keeps giving you dolls and stuffed toys as gifts? Smile and set them somewhere where the gift giver can see it, that's about it. I don't know why many men are so obsessed with consistent giving stuffed toys for gifts, i guess lack of imagination.

[Gator]

I don't know why many men are so obsessed with consistent giving stuffed toys for gifts, i guess lack of imagination.

The answer is elementary, Aloe.  A man gave the same toy to his 5-yo nephew.  The nephew liked it, so he thinks what worked for a 5-yo would do well with a young girl.   

[Gator]

I will ignore the morality issue and address only the substance of such relationships. 

We are talking about a "girl" not a "woman."  A girl's life experiences are so few that she brings little to the relationship.  Even her interests probably differ from those of an older man's.  Her ability to express feelings and analyze complexities are not fully developed.

How can conversations be stimulating?

How can there be many poignant moments?

How can laughter derive from anything other than the silly?

Is there any more to this than a "student-teacher" relationship?

Does a professor prefer dining/drinking with his students or his peers?

Is there anything exchanged for teaching other than hot body sex and a sense of  recapturing one's youth?

Is teaching the ignorant fulfilling for an extended period of time? 

Would a man attracted to an 18-yo hot body also be interested in talking everyday with other 18-yo kids, boys and girls with no sex.

Has history shown that these relationships to be enduring?

[Misha]

Those look like gifts, what can you do if someone keeps giving you dolls and stuffed toys as gifts?

It is not just the stuffed toys. It is her, her age coming through in the photo and the friend with braces that creates that "ewww" reaction when you think of her "dating" a man in her forties.... It may be legal, but that photo certainly raises questions in my mind as to whether it is right...

[Muzh]

Well the facts are that any middle aged AM bringing a child bride here to the GoodOl' USA will be judged here by our puritan standards and NOT on what "some" other or "most" other places do.

And I can promise you that the "judgement" will be swift and harsh (especially from AW :evil:).

The sad part of this whole scenario is that the poor child (girl) will also be judged and ostracized and probably not even understand why.


GOB

I've seen more than one (two, ha) and there was noswift and harsh judgement. Even from the AW. On the contrary, they had very good and social relationships, including the AW.

Besides, it is none of their damn business.

NOW, I would advise against it for a bunch of OTHER reasons, the main one being the maturity disparity as one of these two relationships hit the skids exactly because of that.

A 27 yo guy with an 18 yo girl; I think there is maturity parity here. So please leave them alone.

[OlgaH]

Thank you Olga - interesting that Russia allows the marriage of people under 16 if there are special circumstances.

Here is a case

Father of newborn goes to jail for sex with minor wife
http://rt.com/news/father-of-newborn-goes-to-jail-for-sex-with-minor-wife/

"Commissioner for Children’s Rights in Moscow Aleksey Golovan has admitted that there is a discrepancy between the Family Code and the Criminal Code. “On the one hand, the girl was allowed to get married. On the other hand, law forbids sexual relations with a person under 16,” he said, adding “In this particular case, special circumstances should have been taken into account.”


(there are enough cases when men get into trouble with underage girls  because the girls lie about their age)

[dbneeley]

Much has been said about the "maturity gap" between BillyB and "A".

Now, I do not doubt at all that the girl is not at all likely to have any sort of adult emotional maturity.

However, most of what I've read from BillyB seems pretty strongly that he doesn't, either.

Thus, I have no problem with divergent emotional maturity levels, only that they both should do some serious growing up emotionally before they marry anyone.

Certainly some who marry at 18 go on to long and happy marriages. That represents a tiny percentage of all who marry at that age, of course. A saying I read some time ago put it well: "The race doesn't always go to the swift nor the battle to the strong--but that is definitely the way to bet!"

David

[Turboguy]

Certainly some who marry at 18 go on to long and happy marriages. That represents a tiny percentage of all who marry at that age, of course. David

David, do you have some statistics to back that up or is that just a guess?  When a subject like this comes up I often think back to my high school reunions.  One of the things I noticed was how many of my classmates married someone else from the same class, often from the same home room and frequently someone who usually sat near them.  Out of the dozen or so marriages that all were cases where people started to see each other at 15 and 16 and married at 18 or close to it.  To my knowledge there was not one single divorce. 

Now to be fair I will agree that the world was different in those days and women's goals were often just to get married, have kids and be a homemaker although all seem to have found careers.  Still I think some women are more than ready to marry at 18 or 19 and if someone passes them up because they don't feel they are mature enough, they will just end up marrying someone else and it may just end up working out. 

I have never been quite as conviced as many that an 18 or 19 year old could not make a good wife however I will agree it would be better with a 27 year old than someone in their 40's.  My first wife was 15 when I met her and 18 when we married and although we might not have been the right people for each other she was very ready to settle down to married life.

[BC]

Now, I do not doubt at all that the girl is not at all likely to have any sort of adult emotional maturity.

However, most of what I've read from BillyB seems pretty strongly that he doesn't, either.

Thus, I have no problem with divergent emotional maturity levels, only that they both should do some serious growing up emotionally before they marry anyone.

David,

My take is that Billy knows exactly what he is doing.. but that is quite beside the point.  Obviously he wishes to deal with an upper hand and hasn't a clue what he is getting into.

I can understand a crazed teen bringing an older man home (barely as father of three girls, one still going through the teens). I'd probably throw a sh!t fit or two if 'he' were in his 40's but OTOH would have to come to the conclusion that there would be very little I could do to stop it other than a word or two.  

Now 'A's mother is another story altogether.. What mother in her own mind would encourage such a union in close quarters.. I dunno.. although her motives may puzzle me I just can't get over the thought that there is more, much more going on than Billy is able to see, whatever his mental state.  My gut says one word.. 'Outsmarted'.

But heck.. you live and you learn.

Billy will.. - especially that history has a tendency to repeat itself.  If it does, his threads will simply die off as quickly as the last.

Those interested can review his first 50 or so posts here on RWD and come to their own conclusion.

[tim 360]

From my life experience I would have to say any 40-something-guy getting married to an 18 year old girl today is nuts.  Whatever the relationship dynamics are right now--they will change especially since she is still growing up.  Can there be exceptions?  Sure, there are always exceptions to everything.  Thaqts why they are exceptions.

Lets skip the Greeks and Romans.  Now in other historical time periods a marriage with such a large age gap and life experience gap could work.  Such marriages were quite common as recently as the 18th and 19th centuries in America and Europe.  Most of our great-grand-parents got married at very young ages.  But, for most today, this is a totally different age and what may have worked back then...will not work well now. 

Today, I think for it to work the guy would have to be exceptionally wealthy, charming, patient and ready to start compromising as his new little bride starts her growing process. 

[GQBlues]

"Are you tawkin da'me?"   If so GQ, you've certainly read my posts wrong.

I'm not singling you out or anyone specifically FP. I believe we all know the drill on this one...

For a subject where no one was taking it personally, I sure as heck hear a lot of crickets chirping...."If this was up to me...", "as far as I'm concerned..., *I* blah, blah, blah *me*"...

Funny that, eh?  

Truth of the matter is, folks ARE taking this personally otherwise they woudn't be citing their own conviction loudly and repeatedly - ad nauseum as if what's being presently said hasn't been said more than a few hundred boring times before.

If this pending union happens, then our government deem it to be acceptable and legal. If their church marries them, then religiously, their church and faith finds it to be 'moral' and thus, they're good to go.

Beyond that, it matters very little what you or I feel about it because the only thing important for these two is what THEY feel about

For a man in his 30s, 40s 50s or beyond to take advantage of that, is one sick puppy IMHO, is all I'm saying.

In consideration of the core disparity in the MOB arena, FP, that is a very slippery slope, you know.   ' taking advantage of ' anything may be far more reaching than we all would care to admit....

[SFandEE]

It seems the OP and link are missing from this thread.

[OlgaH]

No, of course I'm not!  However, a lot of Russians get married while still in their teens, even if many of those marriages fall apart reasonably quickly.

I don't think "a lot" would be correct.

In Russia a man of the full legal age has two choices after having sex with underage girl: to go to jail or to marry the girl. Of course a girl's age, her wish, and her parents wish are taken into account. Some parents will not hesitate to ask a guy to pay a ransom for his freedom from prison or from marriage.

Even for a 16 y.o. girl it will be enough to make a claim that a man seduced her and alcohol was involved to bring some troubles into the man's life.  

interesting that Russia allows the marriage of people under 16 if there are special circumstances.

Special circumstances are pregnancies.

[Aloe]

I don't think "a lot" would be correct.

In Russia a man of the full legal age has two choices after having sex with underage girl: to go to jail or to marry the girl. Of course a girl's age, her wish, and her parents wish are taken into account. Some parents will not hesitate to ask a guy to pay a ransom for his freedom from prison or from marriage.

Even for a 16 y.o. girl it will be enough to make a claim that a man seduced her and alcohol was involved to bring some troubles into the man's life.  

Special circumstances are pregnancies.

I'm sorry Olga, but you could not be farther from truth. I'd bet a large sum of money, an adult male can have sex with 100 (one hundred) 14 year olds and not get in a single bit of trouble. You know why? Because it's the same men who sit in the police, and guess what, a 14/16 yr old can go to police and say whatever she damn will, she will either get raped herself, or laughed at, and in all cases she will be kicked out back to the street without having been allowed to fill out anything. You need to have very powerful parents to be able to get any man into any kind of trouble. This is just the reality in Russia. You claim otherwise from reading newspapers, but i am speaking from (unfortunately)vast experience.

[Aloe]

As far as newspapers are concerned, what do you think about those 2 cases, a guy got conditional jail time (so he doesn't actually have to go to jail) for raping like a 5 year old, but the guy who hacked a billboard and made it show porn at night and was in posession of a couple of joints got 6 years REAL jail time. And you are telling a guy will go to jail for sleeping with 14 yr old? That's just ridiculous. It is way worse to post porn at night where others may see it than go and rape 5 yr olds, let alone consenting 14 yr olds   Sad, but true in Russia, at the moment.
Also another case, a woman hit and ran 2 people who died, she did not get any real jail time either (mighty daddy)

[AsH]

For me anything under 22 is too young your just not on the same wavelength.

[Kuna]

For me anything under 22 is too young your just not on the same wavelength.

The problem is the fantasy always takes over and the man is CONVINCED he is on the same wavelength.

Funnily enough... he'll never admits to be immature...  he always projects the story that the child is very mature for her age... and he'll even start calling her a woman. 

Ohhhh, she cleans house...  Ohhhhh she can have fun conversations....  Ohhhhh... she gets good marks at school.

There is a some really interesting information available on the inner workings of a persons mind when they are involved in these relationships... and it's not pretty.

[AsH]

I dont doubt that.


She gets good marks at school.........................not what you want to be saying lol.

[Aloe]

I dont doubt that.


She gets good marks at school.........................not what you want to be saying lol.

Everyone is out of school at 16 and 17 in Russia and there is nothing shameful in going to university and getting good marks, is there? There are plenty of people who go to university at a later age in their life, should their partners be forever ashamed? 

[Kunstkammer]

The problem is the fantasy always takes over and the man is CONVINCED he is on the same wavelength.

Funnily enough... he'll never admits to be immature...  he always projects the story that the child is very mature for her age... and he'll even start calling her a woman. 

Ohhhh, she cleans house...  Ohhhhh she can have fun conversations....  Ohhhhh... she gets good marks at school.

There is a some really interesting information available on the inner workings of a persons mind when they are involved in these relationships... and it's not pretty.

Pretty spot on with my thoughts

[mies]

Thank you Olga - interesting that Russia allows the marriage of people under 16 if there are special circumstances.

"fell in love" does not qualify as special circumstances in this case.
I second Olga's opinion in this thread, and I disagree with Aloe's. Aloe is speaking "hypothetically", Olga is speaking based on real facts that she'd heard about through media.
Aloe, you are confusing different circumstances.
An average man in Russia cannot get ANY 14-15yo girl, unlike you write about it. For one: teenage girls are not that often attracted to old dudes, especially if those dudes cannot flash intellect or cash. Average teenage girls do not normally find themselves in a police station, nor nowhere near it.
(a) Rich and perverted men can buy teenagers for fun.
(b) Average but clever perverted men are using there intellect or power status to lure teenagers.
(c) Poor/average and dumb men may try to rape teenagers, it can be a plain rape, or date rape, or drunk rape.

Group (a) will likely get away easily, because they paid for fun in advance, but they aren't buying "any" teenager, unlike you said, they are usually getting access to teenagers via the sex industry and this is a totally different topic. Group (b) has either to bribe police or to bribe the parents if they get caught, else (if the police and parents don't take the bribe) they go to jail. Group (c), depending on where girl's parents stand on this, either will go to jail, or if girl comes from poor and dysfunctional family - will either marry girl, or pay parents, or the combination of two. If it were so easy to get away with sexing underage girls, there would not be people serving their term in prison for this crime. But there apparently are quite many of them. you may try to search statistics.

Plus, a big factor is the type of girl's family: are they rich/well-off? what aspirations do they have for their child? is the family functional? Are both parents present in the family? how close are relationship between the girl and her parents?

I think Olga's opinion is correct.

Life expectancy in the Middle Ages was, on average, even less than for the Romans of 2000 years ago.  I wrote that "many" (not "all") were married that young - with most expecting to live no more than another 20 or 30 years it made sense to have their own children as early as possible.  They may not have had the knowledge to rationalise it in the way that we can today, but to talk of "desperation" is stretching things way too far.

maybe life expectancy for girls in middle ages was as short BECAUSE they were childbearing too early. Haven't you read any medical articles on this topic? And this is exactly how medicine applies to this case, and why development of medical science made people change some of the standards too.

In the meantime, they are legally able to make their own decisions.  Whether or not those decisions are wise, morally right or otherwise are nobody's business but theirs.  BillyB may have opened this can of worms by posting so much about it, but it's still the life that he and A have chosen - not yours, not mine.

Billy B opened this can of worm exactly because he was expecting a feedback. Otherwise he would not be preaching to forum members on how to find a "quality 17yo woman".
If he didn't want discussion - he would not have started the thread.  I have no doubts he is enjoying the discussion, in his own way.  

[mies]

.

[OlgaH]

I'm sorry Olga, but you could not be farther from truth. I'd bet a large sum of money, an adult male can have sex with 100 (one hundred) 14 year olds and not get in a single bit of trouble. You know why? Because it's the same men who sit in the police, and guess what, a 14/16 yr old can go to police and say whatever she damn will, she will either get raped herself, or laughed at, and in all cases she will be kicked out back to the street without having been allowed to fill out anything. You need to have very powerful parents to be able to get any man into any kind of trouble. This is just the reality in Russia. You claim otherwise from reading newspapers, but i am speaking from (unfortunately)vast experience.

Yes I will claim from newspapers and also from observing and talking to people in my city in Russia.
Personally I gave testimony along with other witnesses and a man was convicted for a sexual abuse of 15 y.o. orphan girl. Though they had sex in consent.
One of my neighbors convicted a 20 y.o. guy who had sex with their 15 y.o. daughter. No, they weren't very powerful or powerful parents.  
And, yes I also know cases when some raped women were helpless to get justice. And I also know cases when some officers of our district militia were dismissed for not helping to victims. The victims weren't passive and did not give up applying to the higher institutions.  

and some from newspapers:

In Khabarovsk a former deputy prosecutor on Nanaisky region was convicted of a rape of three schoolgirls. he got 13 years in prison.
http://www.infox.ru/accident/crime/2011/04/05/V_Habarovskye_eks_za.phtml

In Ul'yanovsk region a deputy chief of Militia and a militia officer were convicted for a rape of a student. The deputy chief of Militia got 6,5 years and the officer got 4,5 years in prison.  
http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1288703630.php

In Yakutia a traffic militia officer is convicted for a rape of a young woman. He got 8 years in prison.
http://www.kp.ru/online/news/775315

In Perm region a local parliamentarian was convicted for sexual abuse of underage students.
http://oficery.ru/all-articles/item/20378-%D0%92%20%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8C%D0%B5%20%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%20%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%20%D0%B7%D0%B0%20%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85

A sad part of reality in Russia is that women in general are very passive to fight for their rights and justice, and most part of women who are victims of rape do not apply to police at all.

[BC]

A sad part of reality in Russia is that women in general are very passive to fight for their rights and justice, and most part of women who are victims of rape do not apply to police at all.

Olga,

There were times in the past where it was the same in the west.

RU will catch up quickly as examples like the one's you posted are noted.

When RU and rest of FSU catch up this whole RW bride 'thing' will quickly blow away.

[JR]

The problem is the fantasy always takes over and the man is CONVINCED he is on the same wavelength.

Funnily enough... he'll never admits to be immature...  he always projects the story that the child is very mature for her age... and he'll even start calling her a woman. 

Ohhhh, she cleans house...  Ohhhhh she can have fun conversations....  Ohhhhh... she gets good marks at school.

There is a some really interesting information available on the inner workings of a persons mind when they are involved in these relationships... and it's not pretty.

Phantasy is why we're here..))