Differing Money Mentalities

[ML]

XMan, good post.  You and I are almost in complete agreement.  Of course this doesn't mean we are correct.   

Gylden, good post.  Yes, I have heard that 'romatic' story many times re how the FSU women feel when the man spends the last dime on her.  Pretty scary; but I understand it is part of their culture.  You are lucky (I think) that your gal has changed (I think) her mindset.

dbneely, great post.  Will comment more directly.

[JohnDearGreen]

In reality it turns out that the trips to visit her and the ring were bought on credit card, the man has thousands of dollars in credit card debt, a mortgage, car payments (yeah, and he told her he "owns" two cars and a house) and hardly anything in 401K. Oh yes, and child support payments too. The woman has to start wiping old folks' butts for meager money right away, for the "rich american husband" cannot afford to buy her a car, or quite often a health insurance.

Reminds me of a story written by a UW in another forum.  Her - successful lawyer from Kyiv, green eyed model looks.  Him - 6' blue eyes handsome.  She wasn't looking for a foreign husband, but her friend invited her to go to a tour party in Kyiv.  She meets him there.  Love at first site, a fairy tale romance.  He goes to next part of tour in Moscow.   He calls her and tells her he wants only her, so she goes to visit again in Moscow.  Then much talk by phone, email, and a couple more trips.  Then the K-1......He takes her back home, picks her up at the airport in his old car.  Takes her to his 2 bedroom rented apartment where his boy is in one bedroom.  She says "The rest of the apartment can not say anything, old TV, bed, in general we can say pusto.........I sat on the bed, looked around the room and tell you it became scary. But he came up, tears in his eyes, said that he understood, but that he loves me and hopes that I will not go back...."   
The beginning of the end.

[Misha]

 
The beginning of the end.

Did she stay?

[dbneeley]

Regarding wedding costs. In my earlier post, I mentioned that it is common for people to give money to the newlyweds to help them get started in life--which could easily have resulted in an expensive wedding reception if there were man such people.

After that post, last night my wife and I were talking and she mentioned that the daughter of a friend of hers is getting married in May. Irina plans to either give cash or a desired gift for a thousand griven or so -- about $120 at the current exchange rates. That is by no means unusual, although in this case the young lady's mother is more of a casual friend than an intimate one. She will discover today if the young lady wants the cash or something bought in the U.S. and brought by a friend who is coming next weekend. Thus far, it appears the latter option will likely prevail in this case--although what they are talking about would be not much over half that amount, so we would give her the rest in cash.

Although in our case we won't be going to the wedding in another city, it should be clear that it doesn't take many such friends to make a real difference for a young couple starting out with the expenses of setting up their own household.

That is one reason I said we cannot make a rash judgement about the $4,000 wedding expenses.

David

[Misha]

Although in our case we won't be going to the wedding in another city, it should be clear that it doesn't take many such friends to make a real difference for a young couple starting out with the expenses of setting up their own household.

That is one reason I said we cannot make a rash judgement about the $4,000 wedding expenses.

David

Which is what I have been saying all along. If anything, I don't see "differing money mentalities" but rather a similar outlook: parents help a young couple by paying for the wedding (or most of the wedding) and in exchange the young couple gets gifts that will help them set up their own household.

[The Natural]

Might some of this have to do with the fact that people in the FSU countries take every opportunity to celebrate something? Even the slightest birthday was celebrated in Russia, it's like family and friends take it for granted and show up and the host feel, willing or not, obligated to arrange, make food and provide a party.

How much more so would a wedding be expected to be as far as good food, drink and celebrations go?

For me, in isolation, if parents are spending 2/3 of their life savings on the wedding of one of their children, it is sheer madness. It would be like if a country used 2/3 of it's gold reserves to stage the Olympics or something like that. I'm disregarding the fact in this example that most countries are in debt and have no surpluses (which makes it even worse).

But I'm all for people spending their money on whatever they want, as long as they don't come running to the state when they're broke and ask for hand-outs financed by frugal people's tax money.

[JohnDearGreen]

Did she stay?

There must have been something about the USA she liked.  She suffered through the stormy marriage long enough to get a green card.  Then left him.  She went through a very difficult period of work and school:

"And then, it is hard to believe that what was happened to me. There was one thing .. When I was sitting on a park bench, with $ 15 cash, credit card for $ 200, very poor and low-paying job, until the next paycheck was still days 8, without even a place to stay, there was also broken old car that broke down every day in the car my personal belongings, prevezennye more from Ukraine and a hungry cat. How could this happen to me ????..... I, a successful lawyer, with two doctoral titles, but you never know what can happen to us, and what side of life turned towards us. So, I sat on the bench, davilas tears from the pain, the broken moral ..."

She eventually worked up to better jobs, remarried with a wealthier lifestyle.

[Doll]

How much more so would a wedding be expected to be as far as good food, drink and celebrations go?

In Russia the groom's parents usually pay for the the wedding. This includes the bride's outfit, both rings and all the rest (which is a lot).
No, Russians don't celebrate more "events" than Americans.

I did pay for 90% of my son's expenses when he got married (in Russia).

[Doll]

For me, in isolation, if parents are spending 2/3 of their life savings on the wedding of one of their children, it is sheer madness.

Nobody said it was her life savings.

[Doll]

Even the slightest birthday was celebrated in Russia, it's like family and friends take it for granted and show up and the host feel, willing or not, obligated to arrange, make food and provide a party.

Is is a cultural thing- there are no "slightest" birthdays for Russians. Birthday is the most important even, then some New Year, then a couple of others.
Birthday is very important.

[Misha]

For me, in isolation, if parents are spending 2/3 of their life savings on the wedding of one of their children, it is sheer madness.

Odds are she owns her apartment which is her life savings  Also, parents are much more likely to rely on their adult children when they get older. Helping children when they are young, is an investment for the future 

[ML]

This is back to the issue of the $800 spent on a leather coat.
I did a quick look at Amazon and came up with 3 very heavy duty coats for women.
These coats will keep the woman very, very warm in the coldest climates.
Yes, these coats may not look stylish, but they perform the task of keeping warm.

Now, consider the woman who does not have a pot to pee in, does not eat healthy food, etc.  Please don't add in extraneous or contradictory positions; just take this as the actual situation for this discussion.  If you want to discuss a woman with differing circumstances, then please start another thread.

This woman now gets a gift of $800 to buy better food for herself for several months.
Instead she uses the entire $800 to buy a very spiffy looking (hopefully warm) leather coat.

The issue was not that this coat was necessary to keep warm; because any of the  coats shown below would keep her warmer than the leather  coat.

So forget about these scenarios where she was freezing at the  bus stop and needed such a coat.  She needed a warm coat; not an expensive fashionable coat.

Now, to marry or not marry a woman who has not a pot to pee in nor the appropriate diet, yet will spend $800, not to keep warm, but to look fashionable.

[OlgaH]

Might some of this have to do with the fact that people in the FSU countries take every opportunity to celebrate something? Even the slightest birthday was celebrated in Russia, it's like family and friends take it for granted and show up and the host feel, willing or not, obligated to arrange, make food and provide a party.

For 35 yeas of my life in Russia I did not experience anything like that, at least among people I know: my family, friends, colleagues. If there was a celebration it was planned and with invitation in advance, no show ups without announcement and no obligations. But people of course are different.    

[ML]

Although in our case we won't be going to the wedding in another city, it should be clear that it doesn't take many such friends to make a real difference for a young couple starting out with the expenses of setting up their own household.
David

Yes, I agree with the above.

But now, what about an even better scenario to help this young couple?

The young couple themselves, and their parents, take all of the money they were going to spend on the wedding ceremony . . . and instead use this money toward 'setting up their own household.'

The money not spent on the wedding, plus the gift money received would give a much better start for any young couple.

If the real goal is to help the young couple . . . then why not really do it?

Will their marriage be less valid, in the legal sense, if it is less costly?

Is there an inverse relationship between the cost of a wedding and the probable divorce rate?

Are brides (we don't really care about grooms) of less expensive ceremonies less happy during the entire span of their marriage?  Maybe this has been the subject of a study.

[ML]

. Helping children when they are young, is an investment for the future.

How does spending X amount on a wedding for a child help their investment future?
For this discussion, let's presume that their alternative is to go to government office, pay some minimal fee and become married.

[Misha]

How does spending X amount on a wedding for a child help their investment future?
For this discussion, let's presume that their alternative is to go to government office, pay some minimal fee and become married.

Marriage is a rite of passage bringing two families together. I can't see why you are so embittered against the idea of hosting a memorable wedding  :noidea:

[ML]

Second, people here are overlooking some very basic facts that have shaped many people's views of money in the FSU. For example, it has not been uncommon for banks to fail here over the last twenty years. Therefore, a surprising number of people don't trust them. Also, there is a relatively widespread sense of fatalism--many people don't much look toward any goals for the far future. Saving for a flat either for themselves or, quite often, to give their children a start in life is something real and concrete; saving for retirement is much more vague, especially during the earlier years of life.
David

Good points.

But again, why not take the money that would be spent on the wedding and put it toward a plan to buy a flat for the new couple?

[ML]

For those of you from the West with so little in the way of understanding or interest in what has created the values of these people, I must ask why you seek in the FSU to begin with if you expect the result to be the same as you would if seeking locally?

David

David, you know perfectly well why WM are seeking FSUW.
And the WM certainly does not want the result to be the same as found locally.

But, nonetheless,  threads such as this are important in the respect of helping the WM learn of the mindset of the FSUW . . .  if, in fact, we are getting the 'right' info.

[OlgaH]

But now, what about an even better scenario to help this young couple?

The young couple themselves, and their parents, take all of the money they were going to spend on the wedding ceremony . . . and instead use this money toward 'setting up their own household.'

Yes, scenarios can be different.

I remember my ex-husband's friends were organizing wedding for their son. The newlyweds received twice more money in envelops than were spent on the wedding and that was without counting the presents that included kitchen appliances, washer, dining sets and so on.    

[ML]

Marriage is a rite of passage bringing two families together. I can't see why you are so embittered against the idea of hosting a memorable wedding  :noidea:

I am not at all against memorable weddings.  Please read again my post above (or below as the case may be) about my own wedding and that of my children.

[Kuna]

This is back to the issue of the $800 spent on a leather coat.
I did a quick look at Amazon and came up with 3 very heavy duty coats for women.
These coats will keep the woman very, very warm in the coldest climates.
Yes, these coats may not look stylish, but they perform the task of keeping warm.

Now, consider the woman who does not have a pot to pee in, does not eat healthy food, etc.  Please don't add in extraneous or contradictory positions; just take this as the actual situation for this discussion.  If you want to discuss a woman with differing circumstances, then please start another thread.

This woman now gets a gift of $800 to buy better food for herself for several months.
Instead she uses the entire $800 to buy a very spiffy looking (hopefully warm) leather coat.

The issue was not that this coat was necessary to keep warm; because any of the  coats shown below would keep her warmer than the leather  coat.

So forget about these scenarios where she was freezing at the  bus stop and needed such a coat.  She needed a warm coat; not an expensive fashionable coat.

Now, to marry or not marry a woman who has not a pot to pee in nor the appropriate diet, yet will spend $800, not to keep warm, but to look fashionable.

You don't understand FSUW very well do you?

I'm not here to educate you...  or rebuke your misinformed position...  but I will share this thought with you.

FSUW can be extremely frugal on daily living costs,  including food...  but I don't think you'll find many that look malnourished.  Something as simple looking at the cuts of meat available in most stores should give you an idea about the types of foods they cook... and how they can attain good sustenance in ways which we don't imagine here.

FSUW WILL spend more on clothes (proportionate to their incomes) than most western women...  BUT they will care for those clothes much better than anyone in the west will.  I fhte woman wants or feels she needs a warm coat...  we should jsut accept that she needs a warm coat.

So...  while you might think you're helping a woman by giving her money for food (which is pretty insulting I think), it's up to her to decide on how she spends money.  To do otherwise in controlling - something that will end badly in all cases.

You seem pretty wound up over this issue...  ultimately,  you need to think about being less controlling and more supportive of a FSUW.  She'll know what she needs most.

[ML]

Yes, scenarios can be different.

I remember my ex-husband's friends were organizing wedding for their son. The newlyweds received twice more money in envelops than were spent on the wedding and that was without counting the presents that included kitchen appliances, washer, dining sets and so on.    

Good; and now think about the situation where the money spent on wedding was instead given to the son and wife.  Maybe they could have then made down payment on house, or maybe bought an entire house.

I suppose some will reply that no cash gifts will be received if no lavish wedding thrown.

Can't say for others, but for myself, I give same cash wedding gift whether the wedding is a lavish catered affair or a backyard barbecue.

[ML]

 I fhte woman wants or feels she needs a warm coat...  we should jsut accept that she needs a warm coat.

I very clearly covered the issue of 'warm coat' in the very post that you quoted.
So why are using words contrary to the stated scenario?

[Misha]

Maybe they could have then made down payment on house, or maybe bought an entire house.

Buying an entire house in Russia for $4,000 

[OlgaH]

Good; and now think about the situation where the money spent on wedding was instead given to the son and wife.  Maybe they could have then made down payment on house, or maybe bought an entire house.

I suppose some will reply that no cash gifts will be received if no lavish wedding thrown.

Of course they did good. The wedding not only paid for itself, plus brought "profit". In Russia the weddings usually are pretty much calculated and estimated