Differing Money Mentalities

[ML]

In my post I wrote:  Now, consider the woman who does not have a pot to pee in, does not eat healthy food, etc.  Please don't add in extraneous or contradictory positions; just take this as the actual situation for this discussion.  If you want to discuss a woman with differing circumstances, then please start another thread.

And, you in turn posted

FSUW can be extremely frugal on daily living costs,  including food...  but I don't think you'll find many that look malnourished.  Something as simple looking at the cuts of meat available in most stores should give you an idea about the types of foods they cook... and how they can attain good sustenance in ways which we don't imagine here.

Can you discuss the scenario as posted?

[Kuna]

On the question of a woman spending money SHE earned on her sons wedding...  I think it's got nothing to do with the man.

She earned the money...  and he doesn't even have a right to have an opinion on this.  He should go with the flow... release his need to control the woman and appreciate the wonderful things about her.


On gift giving... My wife is shocked at how "stingy" people here are.  She's commented a few times about how families don't seem to gift generously - even within their own families.

We recently spoke recently about this because I have a niece and and nephew both getting married this year.  She said she was confused about what we should be gifting them and I gave some ideas on what I thought was right.  (I'm close to both of them).

She told me that it wouldn't be unusual for a newly married couple to receive gifts of US$1,000 from close friends and family members for their wedding, and I asked how people could afford this if incomes were generally so low?

She said,  "We save for gifts...  we don't just pay from this weeks income."



Another thought...  My wife dislikes most of the Christmas gifts my family gives our children.  My family have fallen into a routine of buying 20 small gifts for each child where my wife would rather they spent the same amount of money on ONE substantial gift.

She detests waste and she sees the many small gifts as waste as the children won't appreciate them.  If they get one high quality gift they are much more likely to look after it... and it'll last much longer.

Everything we (she) buys has an element of "value" in it.  She's not as "frugal" as when she first arrived because we're fortunate to live on a substantial income and she has adjusted to that... but she still has a keen eye for "value".  She's almost almost compulsive when caring for the things she buys...  nothing is wasted...  not is mistreated.  It's just the way it is.

[Kuna]

I very clearly covered the issue of 'warm coat' in the very post that you quoted.
So why are using words contrary to the stated scenario?

You clearly don't understand FSUW very well.

My wife would not be seen dead in any of the coats you posted...  she would rather be cold than look like she was an American/Australian woman wearing such coats in an effort to hide their fat rolls.

If the woman wants a nice coat... she should be free to buy a nice coat.  It will keep her warm and make her feel good.  That is what we should all want!


You comment on her having the $800 to buy healthy food?  What is healthy food?  More meat? Olive oil (which is expensive in FSU) instead of sunflower oil (which seems to be preferred)?  Imported sweets?

A FSUW's diet is likely to be more healthy than ours anyway because it's likely to contain less processed foods and less additives.


Why are you so obsessed over what a woman spends money on...  if you can't afford it...  don't get involved with FSUW.

[Kuna]

In my post I wrote:  Now, consider the woman who does not have a pot to pee in, does not eat healthy food, etc.  Please don't add in extraneous or contradictory positions; just take this as the actual situation for this discussion.  If you want to discuss a woman with differing circumstances, then please start another thread.

And, you in turn posted

Can you discuss the scenario as posted?

Geez,  you are a controlling little man aren't you???

It's your opinion she "doesn't have a pot to pee in" and your opinion she "soesn't eat healthy food".

What you seem to want to do is remove a woman's right to choose and you seem obsessed with controlling her actions.

This is abusive IMO...  you need to let go of your anger and let people around you be as they want to be.

[ML]

 

So...  while you might think you're helping a woman by giving her money for food (which is pretty insulting I think)

That has got to  be one of  the weirdest things I have ever read here.  i.e. to help a person with food is insulting.  Should we stop the 'food drives' in USA, Salvation Army operations, etc., because they are insulting to the people without adequate food?

, it's up to her to decide on how she spends money.  To do otherwise in controlling - something that will end badly in all cases.

Yes, of course.  The rule I always learned was that once you give money to a person, they can do with it what they want.  But that is not  the primary point.  The point is . . . do you then want to continue with a person who spends money in a way that is unwise in the opionion of you, the giver?

You seem pretty wound up over this issue...  

This is an important issue for all men and women here.  As noted by XMan (I think),  and generally known by all, money issues are a primary cause of divorce.

ultimately,  you need to think about being less controlling and more supportive of a FSUW.  She'll know what she needs most.

The point is not what she 'needs' most.  The point is between 'needs' and 'desires,'

The woman or man 'needs' a warm coat.  She or he may 'desire' and dream about (and actually purchase with food money) a fur coat that is no warmer than another coat that costs substantially less.

[ML]

Geez,  you are a controlling little man aren't you???

Why did you put the adjective 'little' in the sentence?

In any of my responses to you, did I make derogatory statements about your physical characteristics, stature, etc.?

But thank you for answering  my question:  Can you discuss the scenario as posted?

[Kuna]

Why did you put the adjective 'little' in the sentence?

In any of my responses to you, did I make derogatory statements about your physical stature, etc.?

... because you're acting like a little man...  a weasely little money grabber.  You really need to get a grip of your thought in this area otherwise you ARE in for a world of pain.

If you try to control ANY woman over money...  you're in for a world of pain.  If you can't afford this...  just let go and stick to local women, you're probably more suited to them.

Quote from: Kuna on Today at 11:18:08

So...  while you might think you're helping a woman by giving her money for food (which is pretty insulting I think)

That has got to  be one of  the weirdest things I have ever read here.  i.e. to help a person with food is insulting.  Should we stop the 'food drives' in USA, Salvation Army operations, etc., because they are insulting to the people without adequate food?

It's your opinion that she needs the food... and that makes it insulting.  She survived without the WM money.. she will survive after the WM's money is gone.

Quote from: Kuna on Today at 11:18:08
, it's up to her to decide on how she spends money.  To do otherwise in controlling - something that will end badly in all cases.

Yes, of course.  The rule I always learned was that once you give money to a person, they can do with it what they want.  But that is not  the primary point.  The point is . . . do you then want to continue with a person who spends money in a way that is unwise in the opionion of you, the giver?

The point is...  would a woman want to stay with a man who is so obsessed with controlling her that he is so irrationally driven in this topic.

I'd suggest no...  you are still missing the point that you are demanding control over what she does.  Why not just trust that she knows what she needs?

Quote from: Kuna on Today at 11:18:08

You seem pretty wound up over this issue... 

This is an important issue for all men and women here.  As noted by XMan (I think),  and generally known by all, money issues are a primary cause of divorce.

Here's something for you to think about... A lot of stupid westerners go to FSU and think they are all poor.  They look at the apartment buildings...  the suburban streets and the old cars on the road.  They think they are wealthy at home because our parks are manicured and we all drive around in cars less than 4 yrs old.

You need a paradigm shift in your thinking...  they are not poor, they are often just driven by different things.  IN a lot of ways they will be living much better than you...  but you can't see it.

If you're scared of money issues being the cause of a future divorce for you - do not marry a FSUW.  It's very simple.

Quote from: Kuna on Today at 11:18:08

ultimately,  you need to think about being less controlling and more supportive of a FSUW.  She'll know what she needs most.

The point is not what she 'needs' most.  The point is between 'needs' and 'desires,'

What she needs is up to her...  what she desires is a man who isn't trying to control her.  Understand?   

Quote from: The Little Man Looking

The woman or man 'needs' a warm coat.  She or he may 'desire' and dream about (and actually purchase with food money) a fur coat that is no warmer than another coat that costs substantially less.

You still don't get it...  if she wants the more expensive coat she should buy it.  It's not up to you to dictate what she does.  Live,  be happy,  let her live and be happy.

[AsH]

Does it make any difference to RW where you go what you do with them knowing you are picking up the tab?

[Kuna]

Does it make any difference to RW where you go what you do with them knowing you are picking up the tab?

Ash,

It can make a HUGE difference.  If you're dating someone sincere she will NOT exploit you when dining out or just walking (past shops, etc).  She won't want you to waste money and she will go out of her way to look for good deals for you.

A pro-dater WILL exploit you...  you can count on that, but if you see a RW spending more than you would on something when it's her own money you shouldn't read too much into it in my opinion.

A good RW will look for value, which we often have lost sight of in the west.  We've become so absorbed with consumerism having something is more important than saving for something that's worth having.

Kuna

[dogspot]

Does it make any difference to RW where you go what you do with them knowing you are picking up the tab?

A good RW will also question why you want to eat out so often.

[Misha]

The woman or man 'needs' a warm coat.  She or he may 'desire' and dream about (and actually purchase with food money) a fur coat that is no warmer than another coat that costs substantially less.

I am not convinced about the "no warmer" part. The coats you posted would not be much good for -35 degree weather 

However, what is disconcerting is your thinking that Russians are so poor. The fact of the matter is that when women have a goal, buying a coat or anything else, they will make great sacrifices to save money to buy what they want.

[Kuna]

A good RW will also question why you want to eat out so often.

Exactly...

... and when you are with a genuine RW you'll know it... 

I think some cheap WM may try to control even a genuine RW...  but to do so is just stupid. 

You can't control a woman over money - ESPECIALLY WHEN IT IS HER MONEY!

[AsH]

Well i think i have found a realy good one on first attempt.

not getting carried away though .

[Kuna]

Ash,

There's no reason to think you won't find your future wife on your first trip...  You've been asking all the right questions,  seem to have your head screwed on and your feet on the ground.

As long as you don't get tied up in the hype and marketing you'll have a great chance of finding "the one".

I think most men that fail, or succeed and quickly crash and burn are the ones who are dreaming,  out of control, or let the fantasy take over.

You'll know with your lady soon after you meet... then it just takes some time to get to know each other.

The most important thing though is - TAKE LOTS OF PHOTOS ON YOUR TRIP BECAUSE WE LOVE TR's WITH PHOTOS!

 

[chivo]

I was speaking to a RW some time ago and she told me a story of a German guy she was dating. Seems they were at some amusement park in Voronezh and her son wanted an ice cream. They stopped at a kiosk to get one for the tot and the man noticed how much it cost and thought it was too much. He said that he saw a kiosk outside the park on their way to the park that sold it for 30 rubles less .

She said that she didn't want to walk to get it or have her son wait another 10 minutes just to save 30 rubles, but the man insisted. She went ahead and bought the ice cream for her son. They no longer dated after that. This mentality is not uncommon with a lot of westerners I've met BTW.

Also regarding the $800 or $79 coat. Not only do Russians look for quality and see it as value over the long run, many if not all associate higher prices with quality. IOW the higher the price the better the quality. A $79 coat just isn't going to cut it no matter what.

[dbneeley]

ManLooking--

I do not want to be offensive, but I think it is time for you to assess your approach and attitude if you are truly interested in finding a mate, especially one from another culture.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that a woman may have different priorities than you do--and you assume that despite any other considerations that you are right and the lady is wrong.

One example of what appears to be a very controlling nature is our continued insistence that the discussion must revolve around your own hypotheticals, without your trying to understand what others are attempting to say. It appears more important to you to be "right" than to understand where you might be unrealistic.

Now, I don't care whether you marry someone from next door, from the FSU, or from anywhere else on the globe. The fact is that either you will marry someone so damaged that they will simply go along with your wishes no matter what or they will have some different values that may be subject to some mutual understanding and compromise. For a typical lady from the FSU, dealing with such an obstinate and controlling attitude would last about two minutes before she kicked you to the curb.

The really funny things that most of these ladies would probably have much to teach you about frugal living--and once you are in accord about mutual goals, she would be your best possible partner in attaining those goals. That, however, would be something you are not likely to discover since it seems without some attitude adjustment you will be a "man looking" indefinitely.

Just to point out a minor point--most of the ladies who are financially challenged would have no more ability or interest in buying from Amazon.com than you might have to fly to Kyiv without benefit of an airplane. That is only one small evidence of your total non-comprehension of the realities.

David

[ML]

David, I am very surprised at you.  You can go from one post of being very intelligent and insightful, to another post where you show the worst qualities that you (wrongfully) accuse me of having!!   

I am not controlling at all with women.  I love them and give them the greatest of freedom.  If you will read my first post in this section, the two examples I gave had nothing to do with me.  They were what I heard from business associates, etc.

But, I have a strong interest in these stories and other similar ones in order that I might assess whether these situations are typical or anomalies.  And assessing the attitudes of the FSU women who post here will  help in  this regard.

David, you are well trained in academia, and you fully know that no rational discussion can proceed if the participants keep changing the 'facts' as the discussion proceeds.

You know full well that in a law case presentation, the professor would throw you out of the class if you started bringing in extraneous info that was nowhere to be found in the evidence presented.  Nothing can be accomplished and no logical determinations made where each person discusses entirely different scenarios.

You know all of this better than most here . . . yet it is you who often become pendantic in forcing your viewpoint, even when it is irrelevant.

Your Amazon comments are just one example.  You knew full well that I was just giving an example from one of thousands of companies on the internet.  Regardless of whether any particular person had access to Amazon products, or in fact any products on the internet, was completely irrelevant to the point.  The point was to show that there are very, warm coats available at a tiny fraction of the cost of an $800 fur coat.  Can you find the exact coats at the exact same price at your local open air market?  Probably not, but you can find something similar and at much, much less than $800.

But you well knew all of this before you made your inflammatory post.

You are a wealth of info and have much, much to offer when you stick to being an objective participant.

[Gator]

I was speaking to a RW some time ago and she told me a story of a German guy she was dating. Seems they were at some amusement park in Voronezh and her son wanted an ice cream. They stopped at a kiosk to get one for the tot and the man noticed how much it cost and thought it was too much. He said that he saw a kiosk outside the park on their way to the park that sold it for 30 rubles less .

If someone is wondering what defines greedy man in RW lingo, this is an example.  He perhaps had spent thousands on her, yet this little act ruined all of that.

Nevertheless, there are some RW who never stop asking for something, and I find such women incompatible with my personality.  Maybe this was the straw that broke the camel's back, and it was going to happen eventually.  A "good man" would have suggested buying ice cream before the tot asked for one.

[ML]

If someone is wondering what defines greedy man in RW lingo, this is an example.  He perhaps had spent thousands on her, yet this little act ruined all of that.

Nevertheless, there are some RW who never stop asking for something, and I find such women incompatible with my personality.  Maybe this was the straw that broke the camel's back, and it was going to happen eventually. 

Ah yes, the basic conundrum boiled down in two short paragraphs.

[Misha]

Ah yes, the basic conundrum boiled down in two short paragraphs.

Actually, no, you were deriding women who had worked two jobs and saved money to buy/pay for something that was of value to them. That is very different from a woman asking a man to buy her things 

[vwrw]

ML:
For this instance, when the family fortune is a grand total of $6,000;
should $4,000 be spent on a wedding or anything else of a non-tangible, non-income producing nature?

My answer is “no” in regard to most American families and “yes” in regard to most Russian families. First, unlike it is in America, in Russia the cost of a wedding is almost always FULLY reimbursed by money and gifts because the guests are expected to be generous to newlyweds.  It is not rare when newlyweds get more value in monetary and non-monetary terms from weddings than they have spent on it, therefore, I would not characterize Russian weddings as  non-income producing. Second, in Russia, people are more interdependent than in America, and maintaining of friendly ties with people is important. Russian weddings are often used as an great opportunity to “refresh” friendly relationships and signal invitees that you still honor them.  Besides, wedding helps two circles of people establish relations.

Would the G. man still doubt the woman’s sound judgment if he knew that weddings are compensated by guests in Russia?

[vwrw]

First one earns virtually squat and barely has enough to eat.  Yet when her German boyfriend gave her $800 for food, etc., she spent the entire amount on a new sheepskin winter coat.

Well, people get happiness from various sources.  Some are indifferent to taste of food. They can live on rice and be happy as long as they have  a new sheepskin winter coat. Others people may need a piece of cake for happiness and they would not spend their food money on new attires.  To each his/her own. However, life would be easier if Romeo and  Juliet have similar values. 

[vwrw]

This mentality is not uncommon with a lot of westerners I've met BTW.

This mentality is not uncommon with a lot of FSU people too. Many of them will walk 10 minutes to save 30 rubles even if it is not their own money but money of the people they care about. Often guys have  mentioned in their TR that women were trying to save their money by offering something that may help them to get a good deal. In your example, the woman cared about her son much more than about the man. The woman’s  lack of desire to compromise with the man indicates that she did not perceive him to be worthy of her efforts.

[BC]

However, life would be easier if Romeo and  Juliet have similar values. 

Yes, further debt vs 'real' disposable income.. A debate for sure..

I've lived in a few economically disadvantaged areas and noted that not being able to afford debt can be quite an advantage.  I doubt any of the women mentioned are starving.  Who is richer, a man that has debt and sends a gift or one with no debt that receives some gift and blows it on luxury?

In any case when one gives,  it should be done without conditions.

[Doll]

I did a quick look at Amazon and came up with 

  .

That's funny! He looked at Amazon. Now check the coat prices in Russia.