Dr. Phil Show Attacks International Marriages Friday

[Rubicon]

Who we? 

 My husband and I are not. We have wonderful friends and everything outside doesn't matter. Two American women, one of them is an attorney's wife asked me for help and advice what website their sons can use to find Russian wives. Honestly, I advised one of them not to mess and carefully gave her examples of scary stories  I tried to be polite as I could. I just could not tell her that her son in his middle thirties is a total doofus and nothing and nobody would be able to help him. I think he is stuck with mommy till last days. The other guy actually does it himself pretty well updating me on his search when we meet.

"I just could not tell her that her son in his middle thirties is a total doofus and nothing and nobody would be able to help him"!!

 

[Rubicon]

I made up my mind long before even reading this debacle here that I would NOT marry a Russian or Ukrainian woman without living with her at least 6 months.  And because of support req's in USA, I will probably either stay in Ukraine with her or we will move to Thailand or some other place.  I do not intend to be a statistic!!

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB,

YOU are associating yourself with those people based on your viewing of a television program.

Mark is DISassociating himself with those same people having met them in person.

The choice to associate or disassociate with another is telling in itself. The fact that Mark has a far deeper basis for making that choice is also telling.

- Dan

PS - your post reminds me of the guy from Indiana who meets someone in California and learning this new acquaintance is also from Indiana goes on and on about how they are both Hoosiers - as if that is somehow a meaningful bond. A very famous (now deceased) psychologist, M. Scott Peck, referred to such 'associations' as "granfalloons" and they are, essentially, meaningless associations.

Well Dan, you can run but you cannot hide from the truth.
We all are (or were) in pursuit of FSUW at one time or another and I believe that puts us all in the same boat.
BTW....Has the thought crossed your mind that those buffoons on Dr. Phil last night might very well be members here on your forum?
 
GOB

[Rubicon]

 living on a lighted stage approaches the unreal...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwXjnVICb3I[/youtube]

[GoodOlBoy]

I made up my mind long before even reading this debacle here that I would NOT marry a Russian or Ukrainian woman without living with her at least 6 months.  And because of support req's in USA, I will probably either stay in Ukraine with her or we will move to Thailand or some other place.  I do not intend to be a statistic!!

Good plan Rubicon.
Remember newbies, always date in the FSU the same way as you would date here in the GoodOl' USA!
 
GOB

[Rubicon]

I stole this from Olga on other thread...

[Admin]

Well Dan, you can run but you cannot hide from the truth.
We all are (or were) in pursuit of FSUW at one time or another and I believe that puts us all in the same boat.
BTW....Has the thought crossed your mind that those buffoons on Dr. Phil last night might very well be members here on your forum?
 
GOB

You really do not realize how ridiculous that position is - do you?

Well, before I declare it utterly ridiculous - tell me GOB, what, exactly, does being "in the same boat" mean to you?

As for the possibility of them being RWD members - if they send me a PM to alert me to the fact, I'd then have to give you a Warning (yet another) for name-calling. In addition to your oppressive cynicism is your heavy propensity to stand in judgment of others. Maybe that one WOULD qualify under the DSM-IV scales. [just slightly joking GOB - just slightly]

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

Good news (well at least in the context of this group):

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/11/baby.boomer.breakups/index.html?hpt=C2

Things are rough all over it seems.

Remember that some of the couples have one member who would be included in the implications of these studies.

Personally, I still believe there is a higher divorce rate among the AM-FSUW couples which is worsened by age gap but we all know that song so I won't do another verse.

[GoodOlBoy]

Well, before I declare it utterly ridiculous - tell me GOB, what, exactly, does being "in the same boat" mean to you?

You are a pretty intelligent man, but I will play along Dan.
Do you remember more than 10 years ago (7 years for me) when you started your adventure to the FSU? Looking for a wife?
Well sir, last night on Dr. Phil, that was you (or me) in a "metaphysical" sort of way.
You know what I am saying....right? 
 
GOB
 

[GoodOlBoy]

In addition to your oppressive cynicism is your heavy propensity to stand in judgment of others. Maybe that one WOULD qualify under the DSM-IV scales. [just slightly joking GOB - just slightly]

Oh my!...We are a little fiesty tonight! 
 
GOB

[Admin]

You are a pretty intelligent man, but I will play along Dan.
Do you remember more than 10 years ago (7 years for me) when you started your adventure to the FSU? Looking for a wife?
Well sir, last night on Dr. Phil, that was you (or me) in a "metaphysical" sort of way.
You know what I am saying....right? 
 
GOB

GOB,

You did not answer the question. What, exactly, does being "in the same boat" mean to you? What are the consequences and implications as YOU see them?

- Dan

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB,

You did not answer the question. What, exactly, does being "in the same boat" mean to you? What are the consequences and implications as YOU see them?

- Dan

It really amazes me Dan how a man who stresses "inclusion" of anybody and everybody on your forum, can surreptitiously "exclude" (dismiss) characters like the ones last night on Dr. Phil.
 
Believe me when I say this, I found their behavior abhorrent and repulsive but they are "us" (men looking for FSUW).
 
As Misha said upthread, they may be the minority or they may be the majority (God forbid), but make no mistake about it, they are "us".
 
GOB
 
BTW...Don't be a hater (Dr. Phil)...How does that saying go: "Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message"? 

[Daveman]

Playing retro catch up

I suspect the perspective Dave comes from is not too unlike mine - which is to acknowledge that we are ALL broken and misshapen in various ways. There are none of us that are perfect and most recognize it.

The other thing one wise sage a very long time ago said to me is that in the realm of being human, there really is no bureau of standards that defines 'normalcy.' Sure, some of the psychs have tried to define ABNORMAL behaviors, but coming up with a universal standard for normal human behavior is yet to be done - to my knowledge anyway.

Given those as the backdrop, then you have to say that for everyone our range of dysfunction of abnormality is really just a point on a continuum somewhere - not an absolute.

You and the wise sage (though I think that's a common thread between the two of you) succinctly summarized my philosophy of pretty much everything relating to the human condition - personality, relationships, sexuality, spirituality..


That doesn't mean I excuse in any way those whose abnormality infringes upon the safety of others (just clarifying for those without sin carrying stones).

I mean - even look at GOB.

Now there's a doctoral dissertation waiting in the wings for an up and coming masochist... 

I make reference constantly to his "oppressive cynicism" - and while *I* consider that abnormal (it certainly is for ME), it likely does not rise to the level that would place him into one of the DSM-IV categories of mental disorders.

No, but maybe rotating on an Axis or II    ... (sorry GOB, couldn't resist)

Mark - I get it that you would feel misled and offended at the intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by Dr. Phil. That is the thing that I rail against most often with the media. When someone knows the truth (or at least, knows how to arrive at the truth) and they turn their back on it for whatever reason - that form of intellectual dishonest rankles me BADLY.

That's a major pet peeve for me as well.  It's expected from Jerry, Geraldo, or Montel, but Dr. Phil portrays himself as the consummate professional and should, IMO, hold himself to a little higher standard in this regard.

[Admin]

It really amazes me Dan how a man who stresses "inclusion" of anybody and everybody on your forum, can surreptitiously "exclude" (dismiss) characters like the ones last night on Dr. Phil.
 
Believe me when I say this, I found their behavior abhorrent and repulsive but they are "us" (men looking for FSUW).
 
As Misha said upthread, they may be the minority or they may be the majority (God forbid), but make no mistake about it, they are "us".
 
GOB
 
BTW...Don't be a hater (Dr. Phil)...How does that saying go: "Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message"? 

You are, apparently, interpreting something into my question that is not intended. Unless and until you answer my question, we shall never know for certain.

One last time - what, exactly, does "being in the same boat" mean to you GOB? What are the consequences and implications you perceive that to hold?

- Dan

[Boethius]

 Dan, both of the studies I read about were written in Russian.  I read about them in utro.ru, which also had a link to the journals in which they appeared.  I may be wrong about the date, it could be earlier, but I know it was after the 1990's.  I know that one of the studies was fairly significant, well over 1500 couples were interviewed. 

Dave, I went back and listened to Rachel's comment, to ensure you and I were referring to the same person.  We were not.  However, Rachel's comments were about the first guest in particular.  She called him a misogynist and a control freak and frankly, she was spot on, even polite.  Dr. Phil called him controlling as well.
The "truth" Dr. Phil was exploring had nothing to do with AM-foreign women marriages.  It had to do with why these particular men were pursuing foreign marriages, and in none of the cases were the reasons, at least superficially, healthy.

Now, on divorce stats.  The 50% divorce rate is overstated.  First, it includes all divorces.  Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages.  Third marriages have a higher rate of divorce than second marriages.  And, the statistics merely divide the number of marriages in a given year by the number of divorces.  They don't include married couples.  Here are some explanations, in the links below -

http://familylaw.typepad.com/stats/2010/05/new-book-debunks-50-divorce-stat-unpacks-it-by-age-education.html
http://familylaw.typepad.com/stats/divorce_rates_us/

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/divorce.htm

[Faux Pas]

I have never once seen a single episode of Dr. Phil. Ironically enough I did have an occasion to met him several years ago while I was dating a former classmate of his. At the time he was only an occasional guest on Oprah. Where might I find this episode, anyone know?

[Mark Davis]

I don't know if it is anywhere else in full length, but we captured it here via uStream (which is allowable) for re-broadcast: Dr. Phil Mail Order Bride episode

[OlgaH]

Where might I find this episode, anyone know?

http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1647/

[Boethius]

We are the people who treat our wives with care and sensitivity and value what we have - and don't want to see it spit upon.

You are assuming posters here treat their wives with care and sensitivity.  You don't know how men on this forum treat their wives IRL, because their wives don't post here.  I think the only couples posting here are Turbo and his wife, and OlgaH and Legal, though Legal almost never posts here.

Now, I'm not suggesting what you stated is inaccurate, but it is an assumption, not a fact.

I note you are listed as a "consultant" to sex tourist Winston Wu.   If that's the case (which sort of surprises me, because your posts on this forum seem very sincere), I'd be more concerned about that association than anything Dr. Phil has broadcast.

[Rubicon]

I just watched the whole thing and it wasn't that bad.  Certainly not perfect, but so what.  It is TV, so you cannot really expect them to look for only happiness.  The guy who paid 100K for his GF's operation; and than she left him--AFA told him to talk to other ladies, but he chose that route.  Pretty strange.  (Nice guys finish last??)

The guy who got robbed--he should not have been carrying 2K in cash.  I never carry more than a few hundred at a time.  I really don't know how he got robbed twice.  Was that a set-up by one of the "ladies" he went to visit??  Probably, but they did not go into specifics.  I don't know how he got robbed twice!!  Both times in Russia.

[Faux Pas]

I don't know if it is anywhere else in full length, but we captured it here via uStream (which is allowable) for re-broadcast: Dr. Phil Mail Order Bride episode

Thanks Mark!


My comments on the show:


I tend to agree with Boethius. There is no onus on Dr. Phil or his show to project AM/FSUW relationships in a good light and obviously (to me) the show was about the mental state of these 3 guys profiled.


These guys are IMO clowns and have some serious flaws and esteem problems. None recognized their own problems. Rather than address and work on those problems they choose to ignore them and attempt to buy their way to a relationship. Sans maybe the control freak. That could be any marriage.


Unfortunately, a great many of Western men that actually have the fortitude to make the trip in some fashion or another are just like those men. IMHO only, it is a reality as well as the perception. Mark, I can support your position and I praise you for taking it, I just do not understand what you hope to accomplish. There is nothing you can do to hinder these guys from seeking foreign brides. There is an industry (of which you are a part) calling these roosters home to roost.


These guys are what most of the old hands on the forum hope to find here. For no other reason than hopefully give them some degree of enlightenment early in their search. I forget their names but the two latter ones I'll wager are in for more heartbreak and expense. Their heads are in the clouds exactly where the agency plants it.


The show IMO wasn't an assault on the WM/FSUW relationships although there was nothing positive there and all of the fallout is negative, wish as we may, we can't dictate the way others think or wish to lead their lives. The show merely profiled two losers at love and a guy with some serious control issues.

[Rubicon]

You are assuming posters here treat their wives with care and sensitivity.  You don't know how men on this forum treat their wives IRL, because their wives don't post here.  I think the only couples posting here are Turbo and his wife, and OlgaH and Legal, though Legal almost never posts here.

Now, I'm not suggesting what you stated is inaccurate, but it is an assumption, not a fact.

I note you are listed as a "consultant" to sex tourist Winston Wu.   If that's the case (which sort of surprises me, because your posts on this forum seem very sincere), I'd be more concerned about that association than anything Dr. Phil has broadcast.

Winston Wu is really creepy.  I would not have any association with him either!!

[GQBlues]

WOW...This became a pretty hot topic all of the sudden.... leave it to Dr. Phil! LOL. Does he really need additional props on RWD?

Yes, You CAN argue with that logic - and you should!

HE SAYS WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH THE MEN REPRESENTED ON YESTERDAY'S PROGRAM AND YOU SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS??? 

I'll say it again:

• 400 pound guys spends $100,000 on a lung transplant for his girl then she dumps him - different boat
• Top one-tenth of 1% control freak treats his wife like a slave (Dr. Phil description and guy admits) - different boat
• Woman marries a man who makes her pay for heat in her own home - different boat

Anybody here in their boat?  I'm not.

It's like saying, "hey, we're all human.  Child molesters - wife beaters - all human.  Right?"  Wrong.

VERY DIFFERENT BOAT

This forum is not composed of the kinds of men portrayed in that show and yet this is how THEY want the world to believe WE are!  And you're ok with being thrown into the boat with the kinds of men they paraded on stage?  I'm not!

Mark-


I hope you'll understand the intent of this post and assure you I mean no offense. I just find it pretty darn ironic why you keep including yourself unto something you seem to be fighting to get away from? If you honestly feel you're on a different boat, dude, wave farewell at the suckers and sail on...


Why do you seem bent on creating a world according to Mark Davis? Do you even notice that? You say you abhor controlling men, but do you not agree that attempting to create a world according to one's personal definition of how life should be IS a great example of a controlling behavior?


There will be the bad and the ugly as well as there are the good and the happy in these relationships. Simply because there are those whom you feel didn't quite meet the Mark Davis litmus test, doesn't automatically make you judge, jury, and executioner. I mean...who the holly heck are you?


You believe you are not a part of the sum you so disdain, great! As Jean Luc Picard always mused, "Make it so, Number One! Engage! "


Enjoy the life that you feel so blessed with. No need to presume everyone must be sprinkled with happy Mark Davis dust upon everyone else's hair. We were there too, and we all got our share of it, trust me...

I felt wounded by this episode. I think all good Catholics feel the same way when the media pounces on a priest who is accused of molesting a child. Most Catholics are good people. Most priests sacrifice their lives for a noble cause and never cause harm to anyone their entire lives. But they are all muddied by the association of these molestation stories.  With every media story on "Mail Order Brides" we are thrown in the mud with these stereo-typical bad men.

Sure, and all good catholics only marry once, right? Besides, "wounded" is being a tad bit dramatic, wouldn't you say?

[Ade]

>>No one has yet convinced me that those guys aren't representative of the majority of men actively searching for a foreign bride on MOB sites.<<

And no one will. For that matter, no one can.

As the deprecatory connotation lies with you, it is not the responsibility of anyone else to refute your position. If you choose to hold it - that is your prerogative - unreasoned or incorrect as it may (or may not) be.

- Dan

Dan, I didn't just wake up one day with this idea from nowhere in my head. That conclusion has formed from reading very many posts on several forums (Russian women ones included) and seeing several TV documentaries on the subject. Even the Mark Davis' of this forum will admit I'm sure (and have done in various threads) that the majority of people pecking away at their MOB site keyboards are philanderers, liars, cheaters, keyboard Romeos and dysfunctional guys with extraordinarily unreal expectations. These are the majority and, as far as I can tell, Dr Phil's guests were very much their representatives.

Now, you and others can try to distance yourself as much as you want but as GOB so bluntly points out, you are associated in the eyes of the world by the very nature of the relationship you have with your wife as is everyone else explicitly searching for a FSUW.

If you can in some way show me some magic stats that show the majority of men are closer to you in their attitudes and behaviour then I'll gladly reassess my conclusions and admit I was wrong.

FWIW, out of the 5 WM/FSUW couples we know personally (besides ourselves) at least 2 of them could be Dr Phil material.

[Ade]

Okay, my wife and I just watched the show and I have to say that we can't see the problem. Or perhaps I should say that I can understand why some people may have a problem with the show but I don't think Dr Phil misrepresented anything and, in fact, he went out of his way to comment on the stereotyping and included a plug for AFA  and their "the happier side" of the story when he was in no way obligated to.

Put it this way, take someone that's a complete stranger to the MOB scene, point them at RWD, RUA and RMP for a couple of days and my guess is that their overriding impression would be no different than the impression they'd get from seeing that Dr Phil show. Those that perceive themselves as being more "normal" may want to disassociate themselves with that reality but I'm sorry, it is what it is.