GOB and his Peyote Dream

[Boethius]

What makes you believe a middle aged man is more stable than a young man?  Particularly a middle aged man with child support payments which a young man, in all likelihood, will not have? 

Don't you think making a decision to marry based on economic stability, rather than common goals/interests (I won't even get into "love") is more likely to result in marital failure?

The thinner man said he was Dr. Phil's age (60).  I recall he mentioned he was interested in two women; his not so young daughter bemoaned that he wanted to have a baby with a young RW.  38 would barely meet that criterion, so ok.

Ah, I thought you referring to the other guy.  The 60 year old (who told women he was 55 or thereabouts) had lived with a 40 plus aged woman in Russia.  That said, 38 year old women can still bear children, though I think it's pretty selfish of a 60 year old to have a child.

[Turboguy]

GOB,


Your allegations regarding Jack and his business go far beyond legitimate criticism and would seem libelous should Jack ever decide to file suit.

Once in a while I see Jack accused of that.  Always by someone who has never been on one of his tours and has no first hand knowledge and no facts or experience to support those claims.
 
I have been on one of Jack's tours and have many friends who have also been on Jack's tours.  Frankly if Jack ever did decided to sue GOB for libel I would be most happy to fly to where ever the trial is at my own expense to testify that those allegations are totally untrue.

[Gator]

Personally I thought it was rather boring, tasteless and malicious. 

Tasteless and malicious, yes.  Boring.....not in my opinion; however, I admit to a twisted sense of humor.  And I  admit to not going to Sunday School. 
 

Of course I never found SO's posts funny either.

He would belittle in comical sarcasm the photos of older gentlemen such as you and I (and those who were unfortunately ugly or overweight); however, I assumed and later heard he had his own problems.  I remind you that some people find my SOH rather disturbing. 

[Gator]

What makes you believe a middle aged man is more stable than a young man? 

I rest my case with Barack Sr.

Don't you think making a decision to marry based on economic stability, rather than common goals/interests (I won't even get into "love") is more likely to fail?

 
 
Yes, for sure.  However, I wasn't talking about economic stability.
 

Ah, I thought you referring to the other guy.  The 60 year old (who told women he was 55 or thereabouts) had lived with a 40 plus aged woman in Russia.  That said, 38 year old women can still bear children, though I think it's pretty selfish of a 60 year old to have a child.

 
 
My recollection differs.

[Boethius]

I don't think Barack Sr. was "unstable".  He was driven for his own success, above everything else.  He was selfish.  There is a difference.

There is nothing which proves a young man is less stable than an older guy.  It all comes down to personality.

ETA - I don't think GOB's post is libelous, as it is intended, I believe, as satire.  It may be unfair, but it is fairly clear it's intended as humour.

[GQBlues]

....Frankly if Jack ever did decided to sue GOB for libel I would be most happy to fly to where ever the trial is at my own expense to testify that those allegations are totally untrue.

Well frankly you guys are going way too overboard. Libel? Allegations? Sue (short for 'Susan'?)? By whom and for what?
 
Who the heck is JacK? Jack Sparrow? Is Jack Sparrow suing GOB?
 
GOB already said 'fiction' and I thought Admin's use of the word 'peyote' was appropriate ( and ingenious) for the piece.
 

"Help me to help you, Jack! Humor me..."

Pirates of the Carribean, On Stranger Tides

[GoodOlBoy]

Well frankly you guys are going way too overboard. Libel? Allegations? Sue (short for 'Susan'?)? By whom and for what? 

Jailhouse lawyers I say. 
 
GOB

[Boethius]

David did practice law, for many years, I gather.

[Turboguy]

Well frankly you guys are going way too overboard. Libel? Allegations? Sue (short for 'Susan'?)? By whom and for what?
 
Who the heck is JacK? Jack Sparrow? Is Jack Sparrow suing GOB?
 

Well GQ since he mentioned both "Jack" and "Tours" I don't think anyone who has been around much would have any doubts who his "fictional" character is.
 
Frankly, I would be surprised to hear Jack was suing him over this and since my knowledge of the law is limited to a couple of Business Law classes quite a while ago I think one thing that would have to be proved is that the statements made are not true.  I am sure Jack could find a hundred guys to testify that they are not and doubt that anyone could be found to testify that they were true.  Being a pimp is a criminal offence so Jack is being accused of criminal activities.  Another thing that I think would have to be proved is that there were damages or the potential for damages and personally being accused of criminal activites could drive customers away.
 
Let me ask those who did find the story funny if it would have been any less funny had the character been named George and tours were not mentioned.  I see it as a deliberate attempt to smear someones good reputation without reason.   If someone wants to make up crap about a non commercial member it most likely won't hurt thier business.  I just don't see it as fair to try to attack someones income and business with statements that have no facts to back them up. 

[GoodOlBoy]

Well GQ since he mentioned both "Jack" and "Tours" I don't think anyone who has been around much would have any doubts who his "fictional" character is.

Actually Perry Mason TG I was thinking more along the lines of Mr. Jack Me*ff. 
 
GOB
 
BTW....Sorry for the language ladies.
 

[BC]

BTW....Sorry for the "salty" language ladies.

GOB,


Sorry.. as much as I despise Jack's antics, this goes below even that belt-line.


Care to raise the bar to a level even a man can consider acceptable?

[Turboguy]

Actually TG I was thinking more along the lines of Mr. Jack Me*ff. 
 
GOB
 

That's fine GOB.  Just don't give up your day job for a career on Comedy Central.
 
The reality is that even though I didn't find it all that amusing, many did so thanks for your attempt to add some humor to the forum. 
 
One fact that is probably true is that you don't like Jack.  Another fact that is true is that I do like Jack.  Jack does have a very strong personality and he does rub some people the wrong way.  I am sure you are not the only one who doesn't like Jack.  Jack also has lots of guys who do like him and most everyone who has ever done one of his tours is in that club.  The ones who don't are those who have never met him and never done one of his tours.
 
Before I ever did Jack's tour I did three European Connections tours.  My reason for mentioning this is that I have something to compare to.  The difference is night and day.  Doing a big agency tour is like writing to 21 year olds on A-Web and doing Jacks tour is like using Elena's and writing gals a just few years younger than you are.   The atmosphere is totally different than the big agencies, the ladies you meet are nearly all sincere or at least open to a relationship if they meet the right man and that isn't the case with the big agency tours.  One of the things that impressed me about Jack the most was how hard he tries to help each man be successful and how much individual attention he gives to each person.  Tours do fit the needs of some people and Jack's are head and shoulder better than any other option they can take. 

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB,


Sorry.. as much as I despise Jack's antics, this goes below even that belt-line.


Care to raise the bar to a level even a man can consider acceptable?

Sorry BC (and everybody else)...really.
I'll try to clean up my act. 
 
GOB

[GQBlues]

Well GQ since he mentioned both "Jack" and "Tours" I don't think anyone who has been around much would have any doubts who his "fictional" character is.

TG-
 
Did you mean this?
 
LOL.
 
The thread title itself, FWIW, is coined a hallucegenic dream...c'mon now TG.

[Gator]

Thanks GOB.  You are a Christian - love, tolerance and forgiveness are what the Southern Baptists imprinted in me.
 
P. S.  -  I still say it was a good piece of writing and worthy of a script for Jerry Springer show.  Copyright it now.  Change the names however to protect those who may be innocent.

[Turboguy]

TG-
 
Did you mean this?
 
LOL.
 
The thread title itself, FWIW, is coined a hallucegenic dream...c'mon now TG.

Oh, about half heartedly.  Probably about half of it is I am having a little fun with it.  I do think it is strange that most of the characters were somewhat fictional execpt the part about Jack and Tours.  I have to wonder what the reaction would have been if all the characters had been extreames but based on RWD members as the description of Jack was. 

[GQBlues]

FWIW, Donhollio can attest to this as 'fact', during the taping of that infamous what's-her-name show, the general audience got an earful about sordid stories, accusations, etc..between the guests in attendance about the existence of (and/or the promotion of) pornographic materials, services, whatever within certain agencies. Website names were thrown out to the audience so they can 'check' the validity of the accusations, etc...
 
It got so heated that I was actually surprised it didn't get reduced to a full-blown fistfight (the men were pretty angry, too (LOL)..I can't remember the names of the agencies, btw so don't even ask).
 
Anyway, nothing that was eventually shown on TV even remotely included that little gem of an exchange. Yet, enough people were in attendance to hear all of it and it certainly didn't gve this endeavor (MOB) any semblance of respectability (considering you had an 'abuse case' being discussed and a representative from VAWA, IIRC), at least not from those in attendance.
 
Last thing people really want to get involved in is some silly reactions that just doesn't validate their personal experiences.
 
Well heck, anyone remember Dr. Love? LOL.

[dbneeley]

Some of you folks labor under the impression that merely labeling something as "fiction" or "satire" removes the possibility of suit for libel or slander.


That is completely false.


In this case, GOB made a specific reference to a known individual, and accused him of criminal and immoral activity in the conduct of his business. Furthermore, there is ample information on this site that clearly shows that those accusations are false--GOB either knew or should have known this to begin with.


The half-hearted "sorta-kinda" non-apology that he will "clean up his act" lacked an actual apology to Jack, which would normally include that his statements have no basis within his personal knowledge.


Damages would be relatively simple. Since Jack's business is Internet-based and since his exposure on this forum is both a source of business and a reference for men considering his services, it is no great stretch to show that this is the sort of thing that is completely damaging.


As I said, GOB, why not try to man up and accept your responsibility by a direct apology to Jack?


This all seems to reveal a rather odious side to your own character, in which there are no limits when it comes to attacking someone you simply dislike. However, among decent society there definitely are limits beyond which you proceed only at your own peril.


But then, it appears the concept of being a gentleman is somewhat beyond you.


David

[Boethius]

I'm not certain I agree, David.

Were I "defending" GOB in any libel action in the U.S., I would argue that Jack is a "public figure" for purposes of this forum, and this particular pursuit (i.e. WM seeking FSU brides).  He has had international press, as Olga has pointed out (GQ, der spiegel), which is not fully complimentary. 

I don't know if the late Jerry Falwell's case against Hustler has ever been distinguished, but that case would be my starting point (and that was far worse than what GOB has posted).

[dbneeley]

Boethius,


Under U.S. law, even public figures are afforded protection from the most vicious kinds of lies.


Whether Jack would be considered a "public figure" is something for a court to determine, and would almost certainly be an argument by a defense lawyer because of the greater latitude afforded those who attempt to avoid responsibility for their statements. Even there, though, there are limits.


Apparently, you have not regarded statements by people such as Turboguy, who would be happy to testify on his own dime if such a case arose.


I would certainly not depend upon the Flynt case as being on point; Larry Flynt made his own problem by being in the smut business for years and provoking controversy simply for the publicity value.


As a practical matter, the expense of a suit would probably mean Jack would forego his day in court; my suggestion is that GOB has been irresponsible first for making allegations without regard to truth, then for not facing that responsibility with a meaningful apology.


GOB is fortunate that he is not a Texas resident, which would make the cost of prosecution far less. However, thus far he seems little more than a guttersnipe with little or no sense of decency or fair play.


If that is the sort of person you would defend, then what does that say about you?


David

[Ade]

Boethius,


If that is the sort of person you would defend, then what does that say about you?


David

Seriously? You have a habit of making snide little insinuations like this and you then have the gall to put yourself above GOB?

[Turboguy]

There seems to be some question about if there would be grounds for a lawsuit.  Some say yes, some say no.  Now just suppose the story had been a little different.
 
Lets say the story had a number of unidentifiable characters but one charactor in the story was a Dan who owned a Russian forum.  That would be every as identifiable as a Jack who does tours.  In this imaginary story Dan was an embezzler or involved in some illegal activites every bit as illegal and socially more acceptable than being accused of trafficing in women which is akin to being a rapist in our society.  It is something that could hurt his business and I think he could sue and win just as I think Jack would have a case if he wanted to persue it.  I highly doubt that Jack will sue so I don't think this discussion has much purpose.
 
I have also wondered if the story would have been as funny to people if the other characters had been members of RWD with their actions and life were taken from their real persona but magnified to point out any faults they have and mistakes they have made. 
 
It was an attempt to add some humor to RWD which is good.  It combined that with an attempt to strike out at someone he doesn't like which some of us feel wasn't in good taste.  Still it is no big deal.

[BC]

I believe Jack's appearance not only in internet media but mainstream print as well (GQ April 2008) would serve to establish that he is indeed a public figure.  In fact I don't see that awful much difference between GOB's satire and this article.


Just google, there is plenty more out there.



http://www.gq.com/news-politics/mens-lives/200803/russian-bride-america-putin

IT’S 6:30 P.M., and everyone is crowded into a gloomy, nondescript room on the first floor of Kiev's St. Petersburg Hotel. Tonight’s impresario, Jack Bragg, looks frantic, and the sweat is seeping through his bandanna with the miniature Confederate flags on it, and the men look edgy—they’re straightening their ties, straightening their eyebrows, staring at themselves in the mirror next to the coat check—and the interpreters, all women, are on their cell phones or talking to one another. Bragg, who is not a small man and looks like a Hells Angel with his sunglasses and goatee, is gesticulating wildly, and his voice sounds like a timpani.

and of course contained my all time favorite:

Svetlana’s a gorgeous girl, but she doesn’t have great tits, and I like tits.

Talk about libel and slander.. lol

[Gator]

In fact I don't see that awful much difference between GOB's satire and this [GQ] article.
 

Jack Bragg, looks frantic, and the sweat is seeping through his bandanna with the miniature Confederate flags on it, .... Bragg, who is not a small man and looks like a Hells Angel with his sunglasses and goatee, is gesticulating wildly, and his voice sounds like a timpani.

BC, do you really not see a difference between the GQ description of Jack the person and GOB's description of Jack's business? 
 
 

Then....back to Jerry.   Jerry has a new guest he wants to bring out. He is a entrepreneur and has carved out a "decent"    living in the FSU applying his "trade", which is pimping FSU women to any man with cash (no screening necessary). 

Did the GQ article mention any connection between prostitution and Jack?  Of course not because there was no proof and GQ has deep pockets.
 
 
 
 

[chivo]

David did practice law, for many years, I gather.

Incorrect, he just plays one on the internet.