The Adventure Continues: Kharkov

[Patagonie]

Neo]
 
I think you are really on the right road. After have played a hard poker party you have redifined your court and extended after a huge questioning your choice about girls.
 
All is fine and this shows your capacity to change your demeanor and act differently, believe me not a lot of people are capable of such questioning. About this chick as any wovo you are in the odds : i mean in the 85 % of failure. Nothing special about you. If you are good in dating, just increase your odds. So increase means more meetings. Simple. Good luck.

[neo]

I am going to agree with everyones assessment that there wasnt any foul play but she just wasn't into me on meeting, certainly the in meeting chemistry did not match the enthusiasm or keenness during our correspondence. There was no 'agency pressure' since this date wasn't done through AD, the terp who set it up for us didn't charge me anything for my shopping trip support and had her friend (a non agency terp) do the translation for the meeting who had a pretty good day job and didn't really charge a silly rate. Nothing was made off either the taxi or meal given the woman I was meeting already had a job to have a meeting for the sake of scoring 10 bucks seems a bit of a push, and since we had done the meeting without agency involvement there was no point in coming other than to see what i was made of, clearly not what she imagined.


As said its just one of those run of odds things, I have been lucky in the past but it doesn't not always hold that you can pick a winner every time, as pat said i feel at least i am on the 'homeward' straight in terms of choosing a different quality of women, probably choosing different sources would be a help but ultimately i just have to play the dating odds until meet ms right.

[Faux Pas]

As said its just one of those run of odds things, I have been lucky in the past but it doesn't not always hold that you can pick a winner every time, as pat said i feel at least i am on the 'homeward' straight in terms of choosing a different quality of women, probably choosing different sources would be a help but ultimately i just have to play the dating odds until meet ms right.

I think you might be on to something. That and the game has changed from your successes earlier with your first wife. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Seems you need a different game plan that includes leaving the agency alone. Be it free lancing when you are there on business or looking online where the agency women aren't. FWIW Good luck

[tim 360]

None of these are reasons for bad form or bad manners.

Neo,  I have to go with FP on this point.  Her manners are just terrible and child or no child there is no excuse for it.  Would you treat someone who came half way around the world to meet you like she has treated you?  Of course not.  Even if you felt there was no chemistry, you would still have your good manners. 
 
It's easy and almost chivilarious to make excuses for a female.  The kid, the job, no time, maybe she has...There are no cultural or language excuses either. 
 
She really is just plain rude period.  Snap out of it and don't make excuses for another's poor manners--it's unbecoming and you don't need her in your life.  Usually people are at their best at the beginning and if this is her best...run Forrest, run.
 
I think you should forget the agencies you are using.

[The Natural]

Neo, you wrote that you have corresponded with this lady. How long time did you correspond? Did you Skype?

[Larry1]

this is the life you sign up for if you take on a mother with a young child, its not a smooth flowing romance you get with a single girl. Unfortunately this is also why single moms with careers find it hard to get a man, its much easier to take on a young woman with no baggage who is available to entertain you at the drop of a hat, it takes a lot more tolerance and patience of a guy to put up with the inconveniences of single parent life demands 

All too true. This is why I no longer send emails to women who have small children.  I cannot remember all the excuses I've heard from mothers when I want to talk to them, but here are a few:

I can't now because my son is asleep and I don't want to risk waking him up
I can't now because I have to take my son to judo
I can't now because I have to take my son swimming
I can't now because I'm helping my son with his homework
I'm sorry I didn't come on skype to talk to you as I promised I would, but I fell asleep putting my son to sleep

And I'm not talking about hearing these excuses from time to time.  That's understandable.  I'm talking about hearing them on a very regular basis, more the norm than the exception.

To your point, it seems these women would have more reason to try to make a relationship work.  But from my experience they don't seem to show this.  The only women who have made time for me have been women without children.

I also completely agree with everyone who has pointed out how absurd it is for the women to expect us to spend thousands of dollars and our finite time away from work for what is essentiallly a first-date with them, where they risk only a few hours of their time (and with this rude woman not even that).

I'm not inclined to do a WOVO anymore.

[Gylden]

I also completely agree with everyone who has pointed out how absurd it is for the women to expect us to spend thousands of dollars and our finite time away from work for what is essentiallly a first-date with them, where they risk only a few hours of their time (and with this rude woman not even that).

It is what it is. Any woman/women you travel to see for the first time is a first date. If one doesn't want to spend the money and time for it, better to date local. The choice is ours.
 

[neo]

Hi Gylden and All.


We wrote to each other for about 6 weeks, I don't really engage in long letter campaigns for the reasons mentioned above, since everything can change on the first meeting investing in more than 1-2 months letters just to get to know each other is usually a wasted effort. we also spent about 2-3 hours most evenings on skype. I think i was more surprised because our letters and skype conversations were very realistic about the challenges of forming a relationship with her career/young child but she assured me she would 'take good care of me' if i came to visit, and she pushed for an early visit also. she also knew i was coming on a WOVO so i would have expected a bit more effort her side based on our previous comms, it did actually just smack of rudeness her conduct - she set out her stall a certain way and with certain expectations but when push came to shove i came through and she didn't.


While i agree with Gylden that it is effectively a 'blind date' the women still need to accept if they engage in seeking out a foreign man that the effort required for that man is disproportinately higher than the effort a local man needs to put in - they also need to keep their side of the bargain and ensure they do at least make some effort to be a good hostess since they have invited the visit and would not at all accept a man behaving in such away if they visited them in their country.


I think back in the day WOVO carried more weight with women and it was seen as a respectful thing to do with someone you are quite serious with, perhaps the women are a bit more spoiled or feel less competition now so don't feel the need to put any more effort in than a local date, I agree with others however much we want to play the respectful gentleman the WOVO doesn't work anymore for reasons on the womens side, I would say the guys doing the 12/6/4 sift are probably much better placed against the odds since if you have this sort of situation you can at least focus time on the woman who is showing the most commitment and is the most attentive.


Based on her attitudes since I arrived it doesn't in any way match up to the promise of the start I expected in the letters, I consider myself a reasonable looking guy and a decent prospect, this girl was not anything super special and pretty much down the middle of the road, with the child involved as well I would have got much more effort out of a local single mom back home.


As said, i think you expect that a single mom having less options should be willing to put more effort in to attract a mate given the burden of taking over responsibility for another mans child, which many men are reluctant to do, but the experience is quite the opposite, for whatever reason i think women with young children (usually under 5) are probably very focused on their childs needs and have lost the 'art' of romance and attracting a man, so don't seem to have an ability to put their game face on when the time comes.


Its a sad situation - its one of those quite rare incidents where on paper everything stacked up to be a perfect scenario, she ticked all the boxes and i followed the prevailing wisdom of the board in how i conducted things (Direct contact information, no expensive gifts, no fancy showboating at expensive places, agency taken out the loop) but then the random chance spanner in the works meant it just didn't play out well.


it goes to show, you can get most things right and still get it it wrong.


Key learnings for me:


Agency girls are probably too spoilt with attention to put the leg work in
Dating a 'average girl' / divorcee / single mom gives no better odds in reality than a bikini babe.
WOVO is not a workable strategy in most cases now unless you get very lucky.
However good things look in letters/skype/phone calls there is always the chance it will fall apart on the first date so you always need a plan B, C, D....
Choosing a woman within the 'right demographic' still is no indication of how things will go.
Womens character in their letters/chat/skype can change dramatically in person, perhaps they like the idea or fantasy of a LTR with a WM but when made real its not for them.


So its the morning after, still didn't get any feedback from my dates side or any indication if there was to be a repeat, its still raining heavily here - pretty much a thunderstorm a day. I just got yelled at by some babushka with a child for smoking on the apartment front steps - she had all the grace and charm of colonel gadaffi. I just laughed at her - the street scene behind the apartment looks like the Chernobyl set from Call of Duty Modern Warfare and shes worried about fag ash on the steps. It was a reminder that a lot of UA citizens have the social skills of a bear with a poker up its ass.


I have decided due to the weather stopping any meaningful outings, the lack of a prepared plan B strategy to write this one off and book a one way return ticket home tomorrow.


Even if we did get a follow on date before the week is out I think the level of commitment by the girl so far indicates this one would not survive the course, it could simply be she is too busy with child/work to find time for a relationship and does not in reality value the need for a relationship enough to make it a priority in her life.


onwards and upwards.
 

[Kuna]

neo,

I feel for you because so many things seemed to go wrong with your trip that it must be hard to start positive and/or motivated.

The "barrage" of negativity in other peoples posts here will do nothing to support you when you're on the ground.  If I go to work and tell one of my staff he looks tired... and then pepper him with negative comments I bet I can get him to go home tired or sick within 4 or 5 hours - even if he's the most motivated guy on my team.

The choice to go is yours but I wanted to point out that "time on the ground" is precious and to return home early really just robs you of potential.

I really feel like I must point out a few things.  I hope you don't mind.

I think back in the day WOVO carried more weight with women and it was seen as a respectful thing to do with someone you are quite serious with, perhaps the women are a bit more spoiled or feel less competition now so don't feel the need to put any more effort in than a local date, I agree with others however much we want to play the respectful gentleman the WOVO doesn't work anymore for reasons on the womens side, I would say the guys doing the 12/6/4 sift are probably much better placed against the odds since if you have this sort of situation you can at least focus time on the woman who is showing the most commitment and is the most attentive.

I don't agree.  I was on a VMVF (few) trip when I met my wife.  I should have been on a WOVO because I would have had more time with her on that first trip.

She has a few friends who are "mildly" interested in meeting a foreign man,  some are on agency sites - and I can guarantee you they'd go from "mildly interested" to zero interest in a heartbeat if they knew a man was on a VM trip.

It's not so much about what they think about the man... I think the potential problem with VM trips is the way a woman would feel about herself if she was one on a list - AND LET'S BE HONEST,  we'd feel the same way if the situation was reversed.

Based on her attitudes since I arrived it doesn't in any way match up to the promise of the start I expected in the letters, I consider myself a reasonable looking guy and a decent prospect, this girl was not anything super special and pretty much down the middle of the road, with the child involved as well I would have got much more effort out of a local single mom back home.
 

There's one fact about women with children... the children will ALWAYS come first.

If a man has difficulty dealing with this he shouldn't consider women with children.

Even if a man marries a woman and they have children later - to the larger extent the child will always come first.

My wife and I "date" as regularly as we can,  but we've cancelled our dates if one of our boys is sick (enough).

As said, i think you expect that a single mom having less options should be willing to put more effort in to attract a mate given the burden of taking over responsibility for another mans child, which many men are reluctant to do, but the experience is quite the opposite, for whatever reason i think women with young children (usually under 5) are probably very focused on their childs needs and have lost the 'art' of romance and attracting a man, so don't seem to have an ability to put their game face on when the time comes.
 

I think a single woman who's desperate will act differently to a single woman who's working hard to support her family.

This is something my MIL told me the day before my wife and I married:

Women are weak, soft and gentle,  this is what men like.  Men have to be strong and always protect the family, especially the wife.  If a man does not do this it is OK because the wife will become strong and she will protect the family - but then she becomes hard,  and no man wants a woman who's become hard.  Kuna,  Always be strong for your family."

I thought this was one of the most insightful things anyone had ever told me,  and I think she is right.

You're woman may have become used to having to protect her family... she's hardly likely to go to mush and koo at any man on a first date.

Agency girls are probably too spoilt with attention to put the leg work in
Don't agree - Sorry.  have you looked at the profiles of men on agency sites (where they exist).  The average man looking for a FSUW is not close to "the average man" IMHO. If you're a good catch you have  a head start...  but that is still no guaranteed a woman will be bowled over by you on a first date.

 Dating a 'average girl' / divorcee / single mom gives no better odds in reality than a bikini babe. Kuna: Dating one may be no different (but I don't agree) but marrying one will be very different than marrying a beauty Queen. 

Kuna: You seem to focus a lot of your decisions on looks,  material wants/desires/etc.  I like you so I will suggest you try to find a way of measuring women by their personal qualities rather than the superficial things.  I can guarantee you that you CAN find a woman of good character / values who's also gorgeous.  I can't possibly have found the last remaining one in FSU. 

 WOVO is not a workable strategy in most cases now unless you get very lucky.
Don't agree.  I think preparation has the major impact on WOVO success, that and a "clear sense of self" will help a man greatly.

 However good things look in letters/skype/phone calls there is always the chance it will fall apart on the first date so you always need a plan B, C, D....
Kuna: Agreed - very much so... and this is the point at which you could/should be implementing Plan B. 

Get off your a$$ and go to a local agency,  pick some girls you'd like to meet and set up some dates damn it!  I say this only for your own good!

 Choosing a woman within the 'right demographic' still is no indication of how things will go.
Kuna:  If you are deciding on right demographic by superficial measures you've still not discovered "the right demographic".  I'm sure in future reading what you've written will make you shake your head!

 Womens character in their letters/chat/skype can change dramatically in person, perhaps they like the idea or fantasy of a LTR with a WM but when made real its not for them.
Kuna:  this is true... they are women. .. but us men can be like that too.
 

neo,  I'm not encouraging you to keep chasing this woman but I am encouraging you to snap out of it and start living your life man. 

You used an excuse of torrential rain as a reason not to venture out over the weekend...  Look, the way I would see it is that it is a GREAT EXCUSE to get out to somewhere and THEN create a GREAT EXCUSE why you can't venture out to go back home.

Living bravely, with a sense of adventure,  will serve you well.

Perhaps you weren't ready for this trip.  I sense that your confidence is down... and that you are not really "hungry for the chase".  I'm not talking desperate to get married,  I'm talking about being eager to get amongst life.



I would be disappointed if you went home at this point.  I often advise men to write down what they are looking for in a partner, and why....  this is a situation where I would recommend you read back that piece of paper you should have in your wallet because it would help you sty focused and not get distracted.

Best of Luck,  no matter what you do.

Kuna

[Larry1]

  i think you expect that a single mom having less options should be willing to put more effort in to attract a mate given the burden of taking over responsibility for another mans child, which many men are reluctant to do, but the experience is quite the opposite, for whatever reason i think women with young children (usually under 5) are probably very focused on their childs needs and have lost the 'art' of romance and attracting a man...

You would think these women would have an incentive to put more effort into a relationship than childless women would, but I think you're exactly right: they put LESS effort into one.

I think the "visit one" approach can work.  It worked for me a year ago.  But I read about it not working out for so many guys. I would do it again only if I developed a genuine connection by skype calls beforehand and did not see a pattern of red flags.

[wicheese]

WOVO is not a workable strategy in most cases now unless you get very lucky.

Neo,


I can only agree with your statement in the context of writing women from agencies and even then I think it might be the approach.  I can only base this on my experience, but both an extended letter writing campaign and VO approached seemed to lead to good results.  But, there has to be a context for it.


First, I would not recommend extended writing campaigns with agency girls on pay-n-play sites like AD, HRB, and others.  The ROI is just not there as the cost to risk balance is out-of-whack.


I would use the extended writing campaign when starting with a write many approach, using sites like Mamba or even more traditional sites like eHarmony (I interacted with a really nice attractive MGIMO grad with a high level position in Moscow on that site who is still very available) so it goes to prove you do not need to always use the foreign facing sites to have success.  Anyways, the extended writing/video chat campaign does weed out those you don't like and those who are not sure about you, but it can be time consuming which I did not mind as I was not looking just for someone to date, but to have a serious LTR.  Side note on this approach, since it does consume much time, it does hinder ones search in their own backyard which I'm truly convinced would have lead to equally good results if that's where I kept my sole focus.


The VO approach after the extended communication phase (usually a few months) has always lead to a host that has shown me around and paid close attention to me.  But, it has not always lead to instant chemistry and that's why it's good to have a plan B & C which often might be women who fell just short of your poll position or even a plan D which could be a good guide book if you are visiting a new corner of the world (which I understand is not true in your case).


Anyways, as you have wrote, each approach is individual and needs to meet the personality of the person.


 
My only other comment is, has BC on Austrian Air really improved to an acceptable level as I remember flying it into Saudi back in the 1990's and they just stunk at that time.  Especially compared to BA at the time.

[Patagonie]

from neo :
"and ensure they do at least make some effort to be a good hostess since they have invited the visit and would not at all accept a man behaving in such away if they visited them in their country."
 
It's the good sense, just to be polite. But in the real life some women are rude. I had met such situation on a VO. The girl can't meet me the first evening of my arrival and we met the day after. More than one hour. She seems comfortable with me.
I cannot say there were a lot of sign of interest but really no sign of repulsion at all. In the evening she found some excuse to not show, and the day after she ignored my calls. I was angry about a SO STUPID demeanor because i'm the sort of guy with who any girl can say "i don't like you", but "we can stay friend for two days and exchange informations and enjoy our time". But really, ignore your calls ? Find fakes excuses ? We are adult no ?
And i had had  an unblamable behavior with this lady from the beginning to the end.
My only satisfaction had been to visit a very lovely castle and to have been enough clear-sighted to travel no more than three days.
From Neo :
"Womens character in their letters/chat/skype can change dramatically in person, perhaps they like the idea or fantasy of a LTR with a WM but when made real its not for them." True.

[Patagonie]

neo,

I feel for you because so many things seemed to go wrong with your trip that it must be hard to start positive and/or motivated.

The "barrage" of negativity in other peoples posts here will do nothing to support you when you're on the ground.  If I go to work and tell one of my staff he looks tired... and then pepper him with negative comments I bet I can get him to go home tired or sick within 4 or 5 hours - even if he's the most motivated guy on my team.

The choice to go is yours but I wanted to point out that "time on the ground" is precious and to return home early really just robs you of potential.

I really feel like I must point out a few things.  I hope you don't mind.


I don't agree.  I was on a VMVF (few) trip when I met my wife.  I should have been on a WOVO because I would have had more time with her on that first trip.

She has a few friends who are "mildly" interested in meeting a foreign man,  some are on agency sites - and I can guarantee you they'd go from "mildly interested" to zero interest in a heartbeat if they knew a man was on a VM trip.

Kuna, no offence and with all my respect. This the traditionnal BS of women, don't listen them at all. Of course you can loose some women, and longer is your correspondance and higher are your chances to loose a woman as you said. But a woman with who you have little chit chat, if she begins to be upset because you don't have travel only for her only, so she's living in a fantasy.

It's not so much about what they think about the man... I think the potential problem with VM trips is the way a woman would feel about herself if she was one on a list - AND LET'S BE HONEST,  we'd feel the same way if the situation was reversed.
In my opinion women like to fight and compete to win a man (quite the opposite of what they say) so it's more interesting to be among several woman as if one likes you she knows (if she has some experience with international dating) that she has little time to hit you and so she has to make some effort. Better for you. Don't forget she has perhaps already few suitors and dozens of correspondants. So the spoiled attitude "I want a man who visits me and only me", is a total BS, in particular for the first date. There's one fact about women with children... the children will ALWAYS come first.I've little experience about this but my opinion is If a man has difficulty dealing with this he shouldn't consider women with children.Even if a man marries a woman and they have children later - to the larger extent the child will always come first.My wife and I "date" as regularly as we can,  but we've cancelled our dates if one of our boys is sick (enough).I think a single woman who's desperate will act differently to a single woman who's working hard to support her family.This is something my MIL told me the day before my wife and I married:Women are weak, soft and gentle,  this is what men like.  Men have to be strong and always protect the family, especially the wife.  If a man does not do this it is OK because the wife will become strong and she will protect the family - but then she becomes hard,  and no man wants a woman who's become hard.  Kuna,  Always be strong for your family."
Interesting
I thought this was one of the most insightful things anyone had ever told me,  and I think she is right.You're woman may have become used to having to protect her family... she's hardly likely to go to mush and koo at any man on a first date.neo,  I'm not encouraging you to keep chasing this woman but I am encouraging you to snap out of it and start living your life man.  You used an excuse of torrential rain as a reason not to venture out over the weekend...  Look, the way I would see it is that it is a GREAT EXCUSE to get out to somewhere and THEN create a GREAT EXCUSE why you can't venture out to go back home.Living bravely, with a sense of adventure,  will serve you well.Perhaps you weren't ready for this trip.  I sense that your confidence is down... and that you are not really "hungry for the chase".  I'm not talking desperate to get married,  I'm talking about being eager to get amongst life.I would be disappointed if you went home at this point.  I often advise men to write down what they are looking for in a partner, and why....  this is a situation where I would recommend you read back that piece of paper you should have in your wallet because it would help you sty focused and not get distracted.Best of Luck,  no matter what you do.Kuna

[Larry1]

My only satisfaction had been to visit a very lovely castle and to have been enough clear-sighted to travel no more than three days.

That's where European guys have a tremendous advantage over Americans, Canadians, and Aussies in this search.  We can't just pop over for a long weekend. For us, it's a major undertaking in time and expense to make a trip.

I think that's a good reason for us to be wary of the "visit one" approach and avoid it unless we have developed a close connection with the girl via skype calls.

It boggles my mind that a girl I've chatted with twice begins demanding that I come to visit her in her city.  I'm not flying 10,000 kilometers and spending thousands of dollars to go on what is essentially a blind date. They are expecting me to take a huge risk and, like the woman Neo met, risking only a few hours of their time.

[Kuna]

Tim,

Oh dude!!!

I'm sorry,  I'm not trying to give you a hard time but as these forums are here for future newbies some of the stuff needs some balance...

Before I start...  I have no idea of your personal situation as you've not filled out all of your profile informaiton.  I can't tell if you're married and how long you've been married.  I've not followed your posts long enough to remember if you have children with your FSUW and how old they are.

I really don't know if you've been married previously,  what the circumstances are of that divorce or how long it took you to get over it...

I'm just trying to add some perspective to your assertions.

Agree again that I don't think agency girls fully appreciate all a guy goes through just to land on their terra firma--just to have a first date.  Lets change shoes for a moment.  If someone traveled that many miles to come and meet me I would NOT cancel on them unless I was hit by a bus.  It is just plain good manners.  Now if I had a work (scheduling) problem or a child problem, I would still work in a way to meet that person ASAP, afterall there are 24 hours in a day and I'm sure you would have paid her taxi fare, even though it might be a short meet-up.  A 15 minute coffee would have been the very least she could have done and there is the morning, afternoon and the night.
 

Why should they appreciate all that a guy goes through to visit them?  They hear stories (possibly embellished) about a friends-friends-cousin who was visited by a "wealthy American" who took her to fancy restaurants and splashed the cash around.

If you would not cancel unless you were hit by a bus you're probably more keen/desperate/motivated than this woman was... but we have no idea what her situation is.  Sure the superficial stuff might have been communicated but not all woman will open up like a barn door over email to a stranger who is promising to visit!

I'm trying NOT to make excuses for her... bu neo made the trip and he is in control of his actions.  He didn't have a backup plan, doesn't sound motivated to visit an agency or jump online and meet a few new girls.  she can't control this!

Now if I had a work (scheduling) problem or a child problem, I would still work in a way to meet that person ASAP, afterall there are 24 hours in a day and I'm sure you would have paid her taxi fare, even though it might be a short meet-up.  A 15 minute coffee would have been the very least she could have done and there is the morning, afternoon and the night.

Agreed neo could have said to her "I understand you're very busy at work... How about I drop by close ot your office tomorrow for a coffee around lunch time....  or he could have said,  "It's terrible your daughter is not well,  let's catch up for breakfast."

Again,  I'm not excusing her totally of the situation, but we have no idea what causes her lack of motivation, or I'd think it is more like HESITATION.

To do it once and then do it twice and to then meet but bring the child tells me something here is really askew and I don't mean you.  After you spending 3 days there she finally has time to briefly meet you and brings the child is...I'll let you call it.  I'm not trying to be hard on her but she could have made a better effort.

I agree with you here...  but while you immediately dismiss it as poor manners or rudeness I wonder if you'd ever considered it to be hesitation.

To me bringing the daughter along was like bringing protection. 

The woman has barriers up - that's for sure.  Like I said earlier I think this journey and some men's need for quick results means we expect everything to happen here and now.

Don't some "normal relationships" evolve.  When is trust built up rather than being expected to be surrendered immediately on meeting?

Come on...  I think you're being very narrow minded in your harsh attacks on this woman.

There are so many guys who use agencies to meet that I think a good looking agency girl can be assured that there will always be more men tromping through UA in search of a girl.  The steady stream will continue so they take it for granted that for you it's no big deal or effort.

I presume you know there aren't THAT many quality men "tromping through" UA.  I like hanging out in expat bars and other locations where I can get a conversation and I can tell you from MOST of the men that I've men that they are hardly the type to get a woman swooning!

From what I've seen/heard they get MANY men making promises and expressing interest, very few visit and a good proportion of them are losers!

How was the child?  Healthy?  Probably the 24 hour flu and all cured now?  Well at least you two had the chance to sniff each other out and...we'll see what happens but I don't think she rang any bells for you.
 

This is the comment that got me going.

You don't know much about kids do you? Here's a tip - when a kid isn't feeling well it's not always a cold or the flu.

Any parent here can give you half a dozen reasons why a child is "sick" but bounces back to full steam the next day:

Constipation, Bump on head - little headache, Over-tired - thus PITA, Mosquito bites - itchy, grumbly, thus PITA, fell over, bit tongue - whingy, whiny, needs Mama, etc. 

I'm sure you'll have more reflections and do post them.  Personally, I think you are burning too much time with this girl and should be on to the next lady or on the next plane home.  I think with your skill-set you would do well finding an interesting girl in the supermarket or--how about the first terp who found you tempting?  Of course you could hit the Opera or Art Museums in Kharkov?  Ballet? Cheers, Tim

I agree with you here...  it's up to neo to make the trip successful/productive.  Nothing is guaranteed but he can be putting himself in a position where he has a fun trip.

I'm also not trying to be hard on him but people make luck happen - it's not just luck.

[Kuna]

Neo,  I have to go with FP on this point.  Her manners are just terrible and child or no child there is no excuse for it.  Would you treat someone who came half way around the world to meet you like she has treated you?  Of course not.  Even if you felt there was no chemistry, you would still have your good manners. 
 
It's easy and almost chivilarious to make excuses for a female.  The kid, the job, no time, maybe she has...There are no cultural or language excuses either. 
 
She really is just plain rude period.  Snap out of it and don't make excuses for another's poor manners--it's unbecoming and you don't need her in your life.  Usually people are at their best at the beginning and if this is her best...run Forrest, run.
 
I think you should forget the agencies you are using.

Wrote a HUGE response to this but there was far too much personal info in there...

Suffice to say,  it's possible you're casting unfair aspersions on this woman. She may not be rude, she may not have bad manners... she may be very hesitant about meeting a stranger who's come to visit her.

Agreed it's not good form...  but you don't know what she's been through, what she's feeling or what she's thinking.

You've jumped to a conclusion without knowing much about the situation at all.

I would like to say that neo is in control of this trip... it's his trip.  he can choose to make the best of it or not.

I sense he may not have been ready for it but who knows... and IMHO now that he's there he may as well make the best of it.

It is what it is. Any woman/women you travel to see for the first time is a first date. If one doesn't want to spend the money and time for it, better to date local. The choice is ours.
 

 AGREED! 

None of these are reasons for bad form or bad manners. From your description of the correspondence, one would at least expect she was looking forward to your arrival and acted appropriately. Working late, sick kid and honestly I thought her excuse on the third would be that she had to do her hair  . Seems she obviously didn't have the level of interest that you did. Are you sure there's good girls at the agency? 

Sorry,  you don't know what the woman is going through, has been through or what she is feeling.
 
 Ya know...  sometimes we don't have enough patience when we do find a good woman and we don't allow her the time to bloom. 
 
 This is the reason why WMVM fails SO OFTEN!
 
 RUSH RUSH RUSH... find a great woman... have her swooning over me...  BINGO I'm a lucky man...  start planning my next trip  Is that what it's supposed to be like every time?
 
 

 Seems she obviously didn't have the level of interest that you did.
 

 This may be true...  but we don't know why.
 
 Given a little extra time things may be different.  Maybe not.  He's there now though so why not go about enjoying the trip rather than packing it in?
 

[Kuna]

But a woman with who you have little chit chat, if she begins to be upset because you don't have travel only for her only, so she's living in a fantasy.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one... because I know you're wrong.   

You don't know you're wrong yet but when you do I want you to sit back and think to yourself...  "Ahhhhh,  Kuna said something like this way back when...."

Pat,  don't make this journey harder than it needs to be.

In my opinion women like to fight and compete to win a man (quite the opposite of what they say) so it's more interesting to be among several woman as if one likes you she knows (if she has some experience with international dating) that she has little time to hit you and so she has to make some effort. Better for you. Don't forget she has perhaps already few suitors and dozens of correspondants. So the spoiled attitude "I want a man who visits me and only me", is a total BS, in particular for the first date.
[/quote]

Pat,  I'm sorry... you've got this wrong.  Women will fight for ANYTHING they think is worthwhile - but if you're just a foreign dude coming on a wife-shopping tour you're not yet "valuable" to them.

You've almost got this right...  but you've not yet lined up the realities.

If you are dating a hot girl (at home or in FSU) you will get more attention from other hot girls because they will notice you can/have attracted another hot woman. This is especially powerful if you are average looking, much older than your gf, or a bit overweight (Not that I am any of those of course!!!).

I swear at times I have seen a look in a woman's eye (before marriage - I don't look into womens eyes now) that says,  "I want to know what you've got."

This is the competitive streak inside of some women... but first you need to be valued by one - and then others may try to take you away.

If you want to test out your theory write a letter to all of the women you are intending to meet that goes something like this:

"My name is Pat.  I am serious about finding a wife in Ukraine and I am confident I will find a wonderful woman who suits me perfectly.  I will be in Ukraine for 10 days and I would like to meet you.  I will be meeting 4 different women per day for the first 5 days and when I find that magical spark with one woman I will concentrate on her. I currently have openings on day 2 at 3pm, day 3 for breakfast and day 4 at 8pm.  please let me know what time suits you best."

If your theory is correct you'll have the same response rate as the times when you line up your next WMVM trip without openly disclosing this to the ladies.

FWIW, I think WOVO/ WMVM is a personal choice of the man.  I don't think he NEEDS to disclose his "strategy" to women he meets but I think very few men are dating multiple women at one time at home and therefore trying to do so in FSU is a recipe for disaster.

[Boethius]

I suspect she was never serious about you, or a WM, neo.  The date was "duty".  Any woman who is serious, no matter where she lives, would not bring a child on a date.  It was a way to get rid of you.

[Faux Pas]

Sorry,  you don't know what the woman is going through, has been through or what she is feeling.
 
 Ya know...  sometimes we don't have enough patience when we do find a good woman and we don't allow her the time to bloom. 

You are correct in that I have no idea what this woman is going through or what she is feeling. From my perspective that is completely immaterial to her 6 weeks of emails, nightly skypes and her invitation for neo to come visit, which he did relatively quickly. If she wasn't ready to meet him, good manners would have been to tell him before he jumped on that plane, don't you think? Not waiting until he arrives and she works late, has a sick kid? C'mon Kuna, it's not very difficult to read the tea leaves here. She isn't into him and doesn't appear that she was into him prior to his departure. Completely bad form and then treating him like a case of the clap once he did arrive was uncalled for and bad manners. She got him there, at the very least she could have played the role of host, even if it wasn't a very good one.
 
 

This is the reason why WMVM fails SO OFTEN!
 
 RUSH RUSH RUSH... find a great woman... have her swooning over me...  BINGO I'm a lucky man...  start planning my next trip  Is that what it's supposed to be like every time?
 

I agree with you but, I'm a WOVO kind of guy. I'm not a hell-fire hurry rush kind of guy. I don't make any bones about it or excuses for it. Most of the WMVM swear by it to though. I can't judge it because I haven't done it. It's not for me. Quite frankly though, I see as many VMVM "failures" as WOVOs. No solid numbers for proof, just an observation. In failures I mean guys who make a trip to meet 5, 10-20 women and return home no further along in a relationship than when they left.

This may be true...  but we don't know why.
 
 Given a little extra time things may be different.  Maybe not.  He's there now though so why not go about enjoying the trip rather than packing it in?

 




No, we don't know why and likely never will know. Personally, after the first time she cancelled I would have been on to "other things". Different strokes for different folks here. I'm not tossing everything in the lady's lap either. neo tried a bit of a different demographic from the same source. That was his choice and apparently, not a very good one. Different choice, same result kind'a sort'a.  neo seems like a bright articulate guy yet somehow unable to get away from agency women. However, her behavior was bad and unacceptable. You wouldn't excuse it at home I don't know why you would there? It also seems to me that the child was more of an excuse than the problem.

[Muzh]

Neo, I hope you are still in Xapkib. I'll send you a PM with a contact in the city. Not sure if I can post her url here.

[Hammer2722]

Its pretty obvious that any successful attempts at LTR's with MOB's like AD, HRB, etc... are a long shot at best. Its no reason to give up entirely on the search.
 
My first to trips to Ukraine were to meet a lady from AD. Needless to say, it was a complete waste of time and I learned my lessons well. It did not discourage me because I knew I would eventually find a good woman. Having said adios to these types of agency's, I signed up on the much cheaper pay per month agencies ( I used Ukrainedate) and eventually found my soulmate in Lena. By this time I was very good at filtering out the scammers, pro-daters and insincere woman.
 
Neo, I truely hope that this last trip does not discourage you in your search. You definitely need to give up on the AD agencies as they will bring nothing but misery and disappointment. I have really enjoyed reading your TR's and hope to read more in the future!

[Chelseaboy]

It is difficult sitting here to know how you're feeling at this present time Neo.as i don't know how strong the feelings you had developed for this woman were.
Obviously you had developed some sort of feelings for her,or you wouldn't have gone to Kharkov just to meet her alone.
If i had gone to Ukraine to meet just one woman,it would mean i had real big hopes of something real and lasting with her,and although i'd be realistic about how things may turn out,if things did go wrong,i know i wouldn't be interested in meeting another woman,i'd be too disappointed.That's just me.
If i was going to meet many women on one trip,it would be because i had no real feeling for any of them.So,i'd go with no great expectations,but on the off-chance something might click with one of them,and i felt they would all certainly be nice women to meet.
 
However,we are not all the same,something some posters on these forums seem unable to comprehend.We are not robots,and different people react to things in different ways.The advise being given to you is meant well,but it may not suit you at this time,and in your present state of mind.
Depending on how you are actually feeling now,i still feel you might get in touch with the first terp whilst you are actually still there.She has shown an interest in you,and you seemed to have an interest in her from your comments,and she will know the situation.A little more time spent with her now may lead to something good in the future.
Another option is Mila,who is a forum member in Kharkov,and is highly thought of by forum members who have used her services.She is an interpreter,and has non-agency girls she knows who i'm sure would be delighted to meet you.
 
I don't know you as a person,and i've never seen you,but from what i read,i would think you'd be a much better catch than the majority of men that go to the FSU looking for a wife,so i'm sure you'll soon put this Anastasia experience behind you and meet a woman that will suit you.
 

[tim 360]

Thank you for your thoughts Kuna.  But I do think she treated Neo rudely.  Afterall,  he did spend 6 weeks skypeing and exchanging emails with her prior to her encouraging him to come and he did come and she let him dangle.  Her calendar was full, I guess.
 
Neo is a bright, young, savvy guy and I have no doubt that he will use this as a learning experience and make adjustments.

[Patagonie]

Kuna i think we need to go a little deeper.
"We will have to agree to disagree on this one... because I know you're wrong.   

You don't know you're wrong yet but when you do I want you to sit back and think to yourself...  "Ahhhhh,  Kuna said something like this way back when....""

By saying this you are making something used many time by a lot of religious people who are saying to an atheist: "you are believing in god but you don't know yet, me i know for you". This is a classical shortcut for obscurantism, so your knowledge is right, we reach here the binary moral of usual manicheism without any valuable explanation or demonstration.
"Pat,  don't make this journey harder than it needs to be. " To buy what ? My silence ?
I want to go deeper and argue about both side, taking in account yours and delimit
more options.
You are right, on the woman side, because they think in this manner, believing or wanting to trust to a guy who would come just for her (even after little chit chat). Yes by woman side Kuna you are right, this is a reality of their internal world, but you you are acting, booking, buying tickets, and paying a lot of time and energy so this a fantasy that you have to be conscious (manage it by using the same BS, see below), but you mustn't modify your frame, your personnality and your thinking as man.
About the value carried by a man with a cute woman and hanging up, no discussion needed, we know the field, the worth wear by the man is always higher. He will have more interest from others women than the lonely man. And if your look is higher and your value is already high you are boosting it with the presence of a beautiful girl.

When you say : "This is the competitive streak inside of some women... but first you need to be valued by one - and then others may try to take you away". I say no, i disagree, if your worth is above the average, and really above, and if you game correctly this girl you don't need to be valued by a woman as you are ALREADY a worth man and so the girl knows that she has little time to SHOW her interest, to take you away from the others and so to win you.
I will no test my "theory" as quite justly this a BS, why i want to test something i perfectly know as BS ? It's why i totally agree with you when you are saying : "FWIW, I think WOVO/ WMVM is a personal choice of the man.  I don't think he NEEDS to disclose his "strategy" to women he meets"
Of course it's not necessary to disclose these informations and stay in the same BS as therselves (who will clearly not disclose how many guys they f....k, they date, they write)

" but I think very few men are dating multiple women at one time at home and therefore trying to do so in FSU is a recipe for disaster."
I'm this sort of guy Kuna who is trained to date multiple women at home, but i don't think it's a good idea to do such a thing in FSU (or you are a sex dater or something like that) in the way to get married . The way to success for a marriage is to enter in a unique relation. And if possible not to late. Wich means for a WM stops to date others girls, and if possible all girls (even the locals one).

My opinion is that our posts are not so far in fact, perhaps you have a totally different understanding, and i'm sure you will not miss to express it. 

Have a nice day

[neo]

thanks for all the comments, feedback and advice chaps.


To pick up some points:


Austrian airlines business class is a big improvement than past flights, the main reason I booked it BC was due to being a little behind on FF miles for star alliance status and mile awards are pretty crappy on red tickets and quite generous on BC so it gets me to the next tier of FF status much quicker which brings a lot of benefits to my working life such as lounge access, First class check in etc, if you are flying last minute the difference in price is usually only about 100 USD from a flexible economy so its just nicer to get the perks and you get a bigger luggage allowance which helps on longer trips and is often cheaper than paying excess baggage.


While i may in terms of posting mention looks quite a bit, its not quite as heavily weighted in my decision making process as it would appear. For sure one of the reasons i am 'shopping in the FSU aisle' of romance is to get an upgrade, I can date pretty well in the domestic scene and i don't have anything against either American, European or other western women from a idealogical standpoint - i chose to look for a girl in Ukraine because there is a much bigger choice of young hot looking women, so the odds of securing someone very attractive is much bigger than back home where such women tend to be strippers (i tend to like quite tarty looking birds, and we know the FSU is full of em )


that said character is hugely important otherwise i would not reject a lot of the women i do based on their attitudes, behaviours or selfish demeanour. And i don't think choosing hot or not women has anything to do with their character attributes, you can meet some pretty awful fat girls as well.


Regarding this situation.


I am kind of in the Kuna camp in that i know what my sis went through as a single mom, so i do sympathise with the girls position, its not really for us to judge why she conducts herself how she does - at the end of the day i pulled the trigger to make this trip even though she catalysed it and i could have easily not done so. so all said and done it was my call.


For whatever reason (and it could be just pure bad luck) it hasn't worked out as intended.


With regard to having made the best of a bad job - unfortunately this was completely unscheduled and i was quite busy back home due to a pending house move, so my mind really isn't on idling and wasting time in a city that frankly bores me senseless i have been here so much.


its partly laziness and partly apathy Kuna, i used to get thrilled and excited at the prospect of time 'in country' but having been here so much it feels like taking a bus down to the local shops, and nothing really interests me that much in Ukraine (apart from the girls!).


Also i think its a side effect of doing so much international travel solo that generally when i arrive at a place i just bunk in with snacks and laptop - its not that interesting after several years of solo travel to walk around alone, and therefore actually having some companionship makes a welcome change.


Unfortunately i did not want to make a bad situation worse and just run about and try and plan some unscheduled meetings since i wasn't really in the right frame of mind for it, a little too stressed for it due to lack of preparation ( i decided i was going on the Sunday, booked the ticket tuesday arrived friday).


Its just one i will chalk up to bad luck/karma.


Certainly i am not going to lose sleep over it, I have been at this too many times to expect things to work out every time even if i think the girl is worth the air-miles. it always comes down to first date chemistry and a dose of luck no matter what you do.


for sure i could prepare better in future, ensure i have a back up plan and a plan B girl.


I will be taking a lot of the advice away with me, if i ever do return to kharkov i would certainly look at using Mila's service, it is nice sometimes even when you don't need a terp just to do idling to have someone to chat with when you are not dating.


I did have some plans to do some different stuff like get some tennis in, but the weather has conspired against me and i find myself low on energy as well, so given i have a lot of stuff to plan back home i have elected to book a return trip for tomorrow and get back home so i don't hang around dwelling on things, this trip was much earlier than i anticipated and i am not fully in the mood to put in any dating miles (probably with the impending stress of moving on my mind i need to settle in first).


I will be back in the saddle probably july/august once i have prepped a proper assault and have some sort of game-plan for the new world order. I think AD is probably a dead loss now, some guys have managed to pull a rabbit out of that hat but i do not think it works for me and will be hitting the usual suspects of generic dating, mamba et al.


thanks all.