Realistic Estimate for Cost of Living in Ukraine

[XMan]

Curious as to the best way to estimate the COL in a smaller town / city (25,000-250,000 people) in Ukraine, in particular for an ex-pat.  Assuming one can live without a car and get by with walking, bus, taxi travel.  But, having things such as washer / dryer (in multiple trips to Ukraine and Russia, I have never seen a dryer yet), utilities, food, some sort of health insurance, a decent apartment / home, etc.  Not talking about lavish lifestyle, very modest. 

Thanks.

[Faux Pas]

Xman,
I haven't seen him around in a while but you might want to drop a PM to ECOCKS. He's lived that experience and would probably fill you in on the skinny.

[XMan]

Thanks FP, I'll give it a shot.

[Daveman]

Xman,
I haven't seen him around in a while but you might want to drop a PM to ECOCKS. He's lived that experience and would probably fill you in on the skinny.

Yep.  Ecocks is a wealth of good info on the topic.


Do you plan to rent or buy?  If you rent, a non westernized modest apartment near but not inside a city center, with water heater and washer will go for approx $300 dollars or so a month.  Maybe less if you go to the outskirts. 


Utilities aren't very expensive by comparison to the west.  Elect/gas/water will be somewhere around $30-$50 a month depending on your usage and whether you have/want AC.  Internet on fast DSL ran me 60 grivna a month (less than $10).


Food - well now, that depends on what you eat.  Restaurants are just about the same expense as in the west, though you can find more "local" fare which is a little less.   Cooking at home is the way to go if you want to live modestly though again, what you eat makes a huge difference.  meats are expensive (similar to the USA).  Pork is the least expensive.  Chicken in the middle and Beef leads the insanity.  Bread, on the other hand, is dirt cheap. Like 10-25 cents per loaf.  Veggies are a little less than here, fruits can be either less or more depending upon where they're coming in from.  Cheese is about the same and eggs are a little less.  On a normal diet you'll be looking at about $200 a month which is less than here. eat more meat and that'll go up. Eat more pasta, etc, that'll go down. 


As a vegetarian by proxy (cows eat grass, I eat cows) my red meat addiction had my monthly bill at around $250 per month eating at home.  But, I also ate out at least two days/nights per week, so adding another 8-10 meals a month would increase that a bit.


I could survive on approx $700 per month there and be okay... not a life I'd prefer to live, but okay.  On $1000 a month, yeah a little better, but to live my normal way of not being stupidly frivolous but enjoying my surroundings (eating out, etc, regularly doing the things I enjoy with a date) would take about $1200-$1500 per month all total there (saving some months, splurging others)  That's about the minimum for me. 


That's about the best I can give you.  You could bare necessity survive on as little as say $600 per month, but you probably wouldn't like it much unless you got laid a LOT.. 


Dave

[XMan]

Thanks Daveman.

Not sure how I would like living there, given my struggles learning the language, and some of the obvious drawbacks.  It's an intriguing idea.  It would be radical change, and I'm very close to giving radical change serious consideration.

I was wondering if $1,000-$1,200 per month might be possible.  Of course, considering the questionable fate of the dollar, my savings may be equivalent in worth to the actual paper it's printed on.

[acctBill]

Thanks Daveman.

Not sure how I would like living there, given my struggles learning the language, and some of the obvious drawbacks.  It's an intriguing idea.  It would be radical change, and I'm very close to giving radical change serious consideration.

I was wondering if $1,000-$1,200 per month might be possible.  Of course, considering the questionable fate of the dollar, my savings may be equivalent in worth to the actual paper it's printed on.

Xman is you were moving to Russia you might have to worry about the ruble gaining on the US dollar, but in Ukraine there's not too much to worry about.  Unless conditions in the Ukrainian economy improve dramatically over the next couple of years it is unlikely that the  hryvnia will gain on the USD even if the USD weakens against other major currencies.   

[Daveman]

Thanks Daveman.

Not sure how I would like living there, given my struggles learning the language, and some of the obvious drawbacks.  It's an intriguing idea.  It would be radical change, and I'm very close to giving radical change serious consideration.

I was wondering if $1,000-$1,200 per month might be possible.  Of course, considering the questionable fate of the dollar, my savings may be equivalent in worth to the actual paper it's printed on.

No problem Xman.  You get used to the differences fairly easily and your Russian skills pick up dramatically with the immersion.  Intelligent communication will be difficult but getting by isn't really difficult at all. 


The largest hurdle you'll have trying to live there is that 90/180 rule.  I've only lived there for periods of 10-12 weeks at a time in the longest stints.  Even with a business visa that rule is being enforced (meaning that on the day you enter the country you can stay 90, and then at day 181 from your first day you can come back - so, you can be in country a maximum of 90 out of each 180).  You'd have to get in contact with Ecocks or some other current or recent expats to get the scoop on exactly what you need to do to be able to remain full time.  Of course, you can marry a Ukrainian lady and voila, you can then get a residency.    But that's a little drastic on the front end.


Whether or not you'd like it depends entirely on your attitude.  It's a strange place by comparison and things are done differently. If you accept that "it is what it is" and relax you'll enjoy it and have a blast. If you are constantly allowing yourself to become upset and angered over the stupid backasswards ways many things are done, especially anything having to do with government and to a slightly lesser degree business ("the customer is always right" is literally a foreign concept) you'll drive yourself crazy and wind up in an asylum, kill someone and wind up in prison, or just be rather miserable on a daily basis.  Like I said, that part of it is directly related to your attitude.


On $1000 - $1200 per month as things are now econo-wise you would be okay and live a decent lifestyle but you'd definitely need to rent a small apartment outside the center.

[Maxx2]

My last PM from dbneeley


 

My suggestion is simple: find the right lady first, then consider relocating if that is your desire. Life in Ukraine for an  expat without major funds is difficult to put it mildly. Things we take for granted in the States are incredibly difficult here. Simply paying your monthly utilities can take many hours, for example. They seem to go out of their way to make the simple complex and the complex damned near impossible. Simply having a local who can navitage this crap would be extremely worthwhile.

Also, getting a resident visa can be extremely difficult; being married to a citizen makes that, while still a hassle, far easier.



Next, in addition to the regular income, sufficient capital to set yourself up with a flat here would be extremely desirable.


We can discuss this further, if you wish, when my back is not quite so painful. \feel free to write me at my regular email...

[Ronnie]

I have been living in Odessa for the past 3+ months.  I would disagree with a few things David wrote to Maxx in his last PM.  First, you will be in a much better position to meet a nice lady in you live here.  She will not be someone trying to move the the west, in most cases.  I live in a middle class part of the city with good public transportation, parks and stores. It's known as Cheremushki whose main throughfare is Akademia Filatova Street. Occasionally I may even want to visit the local McDonald's which is a short walk.  There is a Western Quality medical facility across the street known as Into Sana.  They also sell insurance like an HMO, but I haven't inquired as to who's eligible for it...I assume since it's a private company, anyone is eligible.
Paying utilities is not a hassle if you rent.  You pay your landlord/lady and they pay it.  Your high speed internet will run around $12/month which is mid-range speed.  Food costs more here for some items and less for others.  As in any country, restaurants can bust a budget but at least not by as much.
Transportation is a big savings as you'll spend about a dollar a day for two round trips.  If you need a taxi, the average fare will be about $4


I think Odessa is one of the more costly cities for rent... I pay about $350 for a two-room apt furnished.  I was paying $480 closer to the beach but found that I don't go to the beach but do travel to Cheremuski for baseball practice with the kids.  Setting up baseball here in Odessa was the main reason I came and my stay in one month at a time.  I'm able to do my consulting work using my VOIP telephone service through Vonage which combined with my Social Security retirement income is adequate to both live here and pay my ex-wife's rent, insurance and utilities in San Diego.


There are a number of expats living here but so far haven't actually met but one of them.  The kids are keeping me busy.  Anyone interested in retiring here and doesn't want to be bored can always volunteer as a baseball coach.  Speaking Russian is helpful..  I've spoken it now for about 9 years and anyone with a language aptitude should not be afraid to learn.  You might need about 3 months or less to get by and another year to become comfortable with it.


This link has a picture of me with some of the kids..
http://www.active.com/donations/fundraise_public.cfm?frid=4157590

[Maxx2]

Thank you Ronnie, that was a very informative post.


What you said was what I was thinking. Come to Ukraine and establish a sort of residency. Get familar and comfortable with my surroundings (it might take several months). Then start looking for a wife in a not rushed or emotionally charged way.


Presently I am working my business so my oldest daughter can run it and all I will need to do is come in but a few weeks a year for it.


Renting seems the way to go. Making a commitment of buying a flat also comes with risk.


From another forum


[/size]

Boncur is a teacher here. She has been in Ecuador for a couple of decades. I have found her observations and advice to be right on. It is a complex thing, changing cultures. It can be overwelming to people who have no tolerance (inate or learned) for cultural challenges. Language is an obvious example but culture holds many more.

A toe in the water to start. If you've never been in water before...jumping in all at once isn't a good idea. If you know how to swim already jumping in is fine, it comes back to you quickly. If you are the head of a family and nobody knows how to swim...and you decide to jump in....good luck, I can't imagine it. But, there are people who have inside them, unknown to all, the ability to adapt quickly. But thats not most people.

Nothing is more important than learning the language. If you are exploring the idea of moving to Ecuador, but feel it is years away, start learning now. Language exists only in living communities so being in the community without any language skills makes you like a drop of oil on water, surrounded yet isolated.

But, I must admit I enjoyed the company of gringos and Europeans in Cuenca. Something in the environment, our collective situation maybe, tended to bring people together. Humans are so very, very social and their social conditioning so deep that we seek one another. Or, another theory, the adventurous types (the "stay at homes" stayed at home) enjoy that quality in others. Met some great people over my winter there.

Boncur and others say it is not as inexpensive in Ecuador as it was. This is another area where the subjective/objective thing makes a fog. If you llive the middle class life in the USA for the same money you can feel rich in Ecuador (outside the biggest cities). If you live cheap in the USA (me) for the same money in Ecuador you can be middle class (USA standard). But, It does not "map" directly. You can not for any amount of money live in Ecuador as you do in the USA, it is apples and oranges. Oranges are very different.

Bottom line, the people are great. The views wonderful. The weather moderate. Its afordable,
and they speak Spanish.

[ML]

Whether or not you'd like it depends entirely on your attitude.  It's a strange place by comparison and things are done differently. If you accept that "it is what it is" and relax you'll enjoy it and have a blast. If you are constantly allowing yourself to become upset and angered over the stupid backasswards ways many things are done, especially anything having to do with government and to a slightly lesser degree business ("the customer is always right" is literally a foreign concept) you'll drive yourself crazy and wind up in an asylum, kill someone and wind up in prison, or just be rather miserable on a daily basis.  Like I said, that part of it is directly related to your attitude.

For many, what Dave wrote here would actually be the biggest hurdle of all.  It takes a definite personality type to be able to adjust to 'not logical' societies.  This adjustment is quite different from just being able to adjust to another 'logical' culture.

Most of us can adjust to another logical culture.  But a non-logical culture or society is a 'whole nuther' ballgame.

[Muzh]

Let me relay this story which is told to many an American tourist visiting the islands.
 
Some time ago there were 4 friends who always hanged around the same corner, day in, day out. Same day was the same thing, they drank beer, whistled at the ladies, played dominoes, ate and then went home to sleep.
 
One day there came a thunderstorm out of nowhere and a lightning bolt hit the corner and killed all four. One guy suddenly finds himself in front of St. Peter and asks him, "My friends already in?" St. Pete sadly looks at the guy and gestures in the negative. The guy says: "you don't mean they..." "Yes, my son, they went down there" replies St Pete. So our hero gets his wings and goes into heaven.
 
About one or two eternities later our hero finds himself bored and missing his friends a lot. He goes to St Pete and says, "Hi, not to be an ingrate but, I'm bored of this paradise. Nothing exciting happens here. It is too quiet. Do you think I can visit my friends, er, you know, down there?" St Pete looks at him, sad puppy-eyed looking guy and says, "Let me talk to the boss."
 
After another eternity passes, St Pete comes back to the guy and says; "The boss is not too happy about this but, he will give you a two week pass to see your friends down there." So, St Pete clip his wings and sends him on the express to down there. When the gates of Hell (oops, did I say that?) open he sees one hell of a party. Music, dancing, decadence, debauchery. IOW a typical vacation. Finally he sees his friends at the local corner and everyone is so happy. For the next two weeks our hero hangs out with his buddies and do the town. When the two weeks are over, he says goodbye to his friends and takes the express up.
 
Two or three eternities pass and our hero cannot take all this peace and quiet anymore and goes straight to St Pete. Listen, St Pete. I thought it over and I've decided that I want to move down there with my buddies. My mind's made up." says our hero. St Pete looks at him with sadness on his face and says; "If you go down there you are NOT returning here. Do you understand?" Nothing St Pete would say would change his mind.
 
St Pete clipped his wings and he ended taking the local to you know where. When the gates open, all he see is peoples heads immersed in the concrete, people reading and debating in forums, people wondering if WOVO or WMVM, if age really matters; all in all total pain, misery and suffering. He cannot believe his eyes. Finally, he finds his friends at the old corner and tries to get their attention when finally one of them plucks his head out of the concrete and looks at our hero as he asks; "What happened here? Last time there were orgies and booze and high fat foods. What's going on? Where's the girls?"
 
"Bud, the last time you were here you were a tourist."

[Maxx2]

You mean there are no women in Ukraine if you go there to live?!   

[Muzh]

You mean there are no women in Ukraine if you go there to live?! 

It don't matter. Your head will be immersed in the concrete. 

[XMan]

Thanks gentlemen.  Intriguing reading.  If I can arrange a leave of absence, I might try a 3 month stay.  I still don't think that will be quite the same as a permanent move, but it would give me a better idea if it might be possible for me for the long-term.  It would certainly be helpful regarding my continued search.

[The Natural]

It's a long way there, but perhaps I can see myself retire to Ukraine some day. It depends on a few things in the future though, that might be different from now.
 
First, I would need to be with my girl. She has an apartment in the Crimea that we can upgrade over time.The pension must be equal as it is today. Perhaps my house can be sold with a profit, especially if we get an oil industry here. I keep my gold and silver coins and move them there as they are real money everywhere, everytime.
 
Living in a polar environment all my life, it would be a great upgrade to live my golden years much further south. Would miss the nice people here though, but I hope the eco-terrorists hasn't been able to outlaw flights by then   

[chivo]

I have been living in Odessa for the past 3  months.  I would disagree with a few things David wrote to Maxx in his last PM.  First, you will be in a much better position to meet a nice lady in you live here.  She will not be someone trying to move the the west, in most cases.  I live in a middle class part of the city with good public transportation, parks and stores. It's known as Cheremushki whose main throughfare is Akademia Filatova Street. Occasionally I may even want to visit the local McDonald's which is a short walk.  There is a Western Quality medical facility across the street known as Into Sana.  They also sell insurance like an HMO, but I haven't inquired as to who's eligible for it...I assume since it's a private company, anyone is eligible.
Paying utilities is not a hassle if you rent.  You pay your landlord/lady and they pay it.  Your high speed internet will run around $12/month which is mid-range speed.  Food costs more here for some items and less for others.  As in any country, restaurants can bust a budget but at least not by as much.
Transportation is a big savings as you'll spend about a dollar a day for two round trips.  If you need a taxi, the average fare will be about $4


I think Odessa is one of the more costly cities for rent... I pay about $350 for a two-room apt furnished. 

I always picked the city and worried about the women later. Unless you're a total degenerate, meeting ladies will be the easy part. Even with the language barrier I was able to find places that seemed to attract women who could speak some English no matter how small the city.
 
As far as medical insurance I would consider a few things before opting for it. If you're only staying for 3 months, I wouldn't even bother with it.
 
Good stuff Ronnie.
 

This link has a picture of me with some of the kids..
http://www.active.com/donations/fundraise_public.cfm?frid=4157590

I think it's great what you're doing for the kids down there. BTW which one is you? 

[Muzh]

Regarding expats living in UA, I'll copy a friend from a very different forum dealint with UA internal politics:
 

OVIR authorities interpret the law as follows:
1. Upon entry in Ukraine, the alien’s passport is stamped with the Entry mark, after which the alien has a right to stay in Ukraine for 90 days.
2. If the duration of the stay needs to be extended beyond 90 days, foreigners must submit the required set of documents to OVIR.
3. If the legal alien leaves Ukraine, in which case his/her passport is stamped with the Departure mark, the previously extended registration becomes void.
4. The foreigner’s next entry in Ukraine starts the countdown for a new 90-day period.

State Border Service of Ukraine Interpretation:

1. Registration is done for a maximum of 90 days within 180 days from the date of the first entry in Ukraine. Thus, if the legal alien leaves the country within 180 days of the first entry, next time he/she enters, the new term of the stay will be added to the previous one, i.e. the number of days during which the alien stays in Ukraine is summed up.

Conclusion:

Therefore, if legal aliens observe OVIR’s rules, they violate the rules of the Ukrainian State Border Service, and by observing the rules of the State Border Service, they violate OVIR’s rules. So, they will be fined either way.

[GQBlues]

http://www.active.com/donations/fundraise_public.cfm?frid=4157590
 

 
 
Hey Ron-
 
How do we contribute and maintain anonimity? Your target isn't so much where the general membership certainly won't feign too much over, I hope...I like what you're doing.

[Ronnie]

 
 
Hey Ron-
 
How do we contribute and maintain anonimity? Your target isn't so much where the general membership certainly won't feign too much over, I hope...I like what you're doing.

GQ...if by complete anonymity you mean so that even I won't know the donor, then I suppose you'd have to go through a friend..have him/her contribute and reimburse them.
Thanks for your support, moral or otherwise.  See my comment on Mobob's trip report for an update of my progress here. 


The way I feel now, is that Odessa will be my home and the USA will be my winter vacation destination.  I'm really enjoying this part of my life.


One point I want to make is that while living here you may find sincere women who don't want to leave their country, but the flip side of that is if you want to end a relationship you can't just say, "Oh gee, look at the calendar...it's time for me to go."  You'd have to do a real break up...which is never easy.

[Muzh]

Ronnie, PM me with an address I can ship you some stuff.

[Ronnie]

I sent you a PM, Muzh...thanks for the help.  We really could use youth sized gloves, shoes and belts.  Bats too.. especially 30", 31" and 32"

[Ronnie]

GQBlues and others,
Another means of donating anonymously is to call Meest America at 1-800-228-9949 and tell them you'd like to pay for a shipment.  There are currently three shipments ready to go:


CV042531225US contains a batting tee, 10 batting helmets, a catchers mask and 63 MLB replica youth hats. 
Invoice amount is $36.23


CV042531234 contains 3 youth bats. 
Invoice amount is $16.24.






CV042531398 contains 2 Fielders gloves, several containers of glove oil, jerseys, helmet, catchers mask, used cleats and equipment bags. 
Invoice amount is $33.65.


Those wishing to follow this project can check facebook "baseball for Ukraine" group.  I have posted photos, reports and even a few videos.


Thank you all!


Ron

[mies]

Thanks Daveman.

Not sure how I would like living there, given my struggles learning the language, and some of the obvious drawbacks.  It's an intriguing idea.  It would be radical change, and I'm very close to giving radical change serious consideration.

I was wondering if $1,000-$1,200 per month might be possible.  Of course, considering the questionable fate of the dollar, my savings may be equivalent in worth to the actual paper it's printed on.

if you own an apartment and don't buy clothes every month, and strawberries/cherries in January, $500/mo will be enough for you. For 2 people - will need more.

[mies]

Yep.  Ecocks is a wealth of good info on the topic.


Do you plan to rent or buy?  If you rent, a non westernized modest apartment near but not inside a city center, with water heater and washer will go for approx $300 dollars or so a month.  Maybe less if you go to the outskirts. 

it's 20-25'000 city. there are no "outskirts" as such.
The cost of renting an apartment will depend on where in Ukraine this small town is located. If somewhere in Karpathian mountains but not very close to resorts, or anywhere in central Ukraine, away from the sea and large cities - it will be cheap. Small town in Crimea or in Odessa region, at the seashore, or a small town nearby Kyiv - are going to be quite expensive.
Benefit of small town  - you can buy most of groceries at local farmer's markets, or even directly from local people, really cheap and excellent quality.

http://www.etag.com.ua/search.html?s=&obl=2&cit=&ray=&t=1&b=1&kf=&kt=3&pf=&pt=&af=&at=&sb=%CF%EE%E8%F1%EA