Hello and a few questions

[Misha]

Sorry but I just don't get much of your spiel.. we can sit around all day and talk about red flag this or red flag that regarding any woman on the planet without your objection.. but once anyone raises a red flag aimed at a man you start chirping.  Why is that?

Quite simple, to use a farmyard analogy, the forum reminds me of a group of hens in a chicken coop. If one of the hens has a scratch with the smallest drop of blood, all the others will peck it to death. If a man does show up and has the gall to let it be known that he does not live up to the imagined self-perceived perfection of some posters, it will too often set off a pecking frenzy comparable to what I would witness in my childhood having to sigh clean out our farm's chicken coop....

He can probably do quite well at the local library, grocer, book store, laundromat, gas station, church, sport events, dance club, whatever.  My gut feeling is he needs only exposure and not the hand holding you suggest.

Shy, introverted men do not do well meeting women at local libraries, book stores, etc.... Such is life. What works for extroverted men, rarely works for shy introverts.

[BC]

I have said this before, I am a shy man. I was neither a Don Juan nor a player, yet I managed to marry a wonderful woman    If anything, I found that dating in Russia was much, much easier for a shy guy like me.

Neither was I Misha, but I was out and about quite a bit, rarely at home alone.  The women I had long term or married relationships with were all wonderful, good looking women at the time and am still on friendly terms with the exception of the one I did not marry.

One I met while visiting relatives - 3 years - US girl
One I met helping her move to a new house - 8 years - German lady
One was the owner of a business I frequented - 5 years - German lady
One I met traveling - now 9 years - RU lady

None of which I was even remotely thinking about marrying or LTR when we met and adds up to half my lifetime.  Any 'dry spells' were self induced..

I find that it 'just happens' and don't argue much with what life sends my way.  In retrospect I guess I was sideswiped at every turn.

[BC]

With all due respect but it seems the caveat is: No Alpha male; do not ask here.



One more time; what you just said is that if he is not a buffed alpha male, he is not being himself. Or is it that you are protecting the Russian virginal damsels from non-alpha male?


IOW, how can he be himself according to you?


Just curious.

Muzh,

Sorry but I sincerely don't know how you derived such from my responses.

[Ade]

 


I have said this before, I am a shy man. I was neither a Don Juan nor a player, yet I managed to marry a wonderful woman    If anything, I found that dating in Russia was much, much easier for a shy guy like me.


It all boils down to this: can you hold a conversation when you meet a woman. The trick is not talking, but getting the woman to talk, which in my experience is not that hard in the FSU. Once you have done that, then there is not need for this Alpha-male bravado and those childish PUA games. If you have generated some interest, then the main advantage of the dating in the FSU kicks in: she will be the one doing her best to let you know in no uncertain terms that she wants a second date, something that in my very limited dating experience women in Canada do not do....


Also, some women are clever enough to understand that shy men have their advantages 

You seem to be forgetting that you had two distinct advantages; you lived there and you spoke the language.

This isn't about his Alpha-maleness or lack thereof. It's about his inexperience, not only in foreign cultures but also in the dating and relationship game. And because of that, there's a damn good chance Van will be eaten alive, taken for a ride, used for a mule, (use whatever metaphor you like) in the FSU where there a lot of women waiting to taken advantage of the naive. It can happen to anyone but, the more inexperienced you are the more likely it becomes.

And I still don't think his financial situation is good enough to do this right. But then, I don't think most guys doing this spend anywhere near enough time getting to know their girlfriends before they pop the question.

[Misha]

This isn't about his Alpha-maleness or lack thereof. It's about his inexperience, not only in foreign cultures but also in the dating and relationship game. And because of that, there's a damn good chance Van will be eaten alive, taken for a ride, used for a mule, (use whatever metaphor you like) in the FSU where there a lot of women waiting to taken advantage of the naive. It can happen to anyone but, the more inexperienced you are the more likely it becomes.

Again, based on IMHO incorrect assumptions. Shy, introverted men have one advantage: they spent their lives observing people, analyzing people from the sidelines. Sure, they may not have much dating experience, but often they are much better at picking up on subtle social signs than the wannabe players who are more likely to take risks and not think things through...


As for knowing Russian, yes it made it easier, but there are plenty of women who know English and even if you do not know Russian, they are much more likely to pursue you even if you are not interested...

[Muzh]

Quite simple, to use a farmyard analogy, the forum reminds me of a group of hens in a chicken coop. If one of the hens has a scratch with the smallest drop of blood, all the others will peck it to death. If a man does show up and has the gall to let it be known that he does not live up to the imagined self-perceived perfection of some posters, it will too often set off a pecking frenzy comparable to what I would witness in my childhood having to sigh clean out our farm's chicken coop....

Misha, thanks for using the perfect example.


Just for the record I'm no introvert. My friends tell me I have no shame, in a good sense. I have met quite a few shy people in my life that were the most fascinating people I ever talked to. Yes they were shy with the girls but as one told me; if he meets an extrovert and become friends then the girls will sure follow.


Shy, not stupid.

[Turboguy]

Sorry but I just don't get much of your spiel.. we can sit around all day and talk about red flag this or red flag that regarding any woman on the planet without your objection.. but once anyone raises a red flag aimed at a man you start chirping.  Why is that?

BC, I start chirping when I see nonsense being spouted.  Of course what might be nonsense to me might be very logical to someone else and vice versa.

The dating scene? It's there and obviously works.  Tens of thousands if not more 40+ men get married each and every year.. a few hundred get on a plane. Show me that does not work.

If the American dating scene works so well, why is Van single? Why is there an RWD? Why are we all here?   I did a lot of dating in the American dating scene and there were very few women I met that I would have considered marrying.  If it is so great why is that?
 

Was PG ready for all this?  Talk about red flags all over the place with rah rah band egging him on.

PhotoGuy was as ready as he would ever be for this.  I had lunch with him a short while back.  Maybe things didn't turn out the way he hoped but I am quite sure from spending several hours talking to him that if he had it to do over again he would do it over again even if the outcome was the same.  A lot of guys tried to tell him it would not work, some in ways so crass that it was shameful, a few of us tried to defend and support him a bit.  No matter how many guys said he was wrong and no matter if ever single member of RWD had told him that he would have proceeded just as he did.  When people have thier mind made up they are not going to change it.
 

Was PG ready for all this? Talk about red flags all over the place with rah rah band egging him on. Try putting yourself in Van's shoes to follow your own path with the resources he has at hand.. do you think you would be able to follow the exact same path? As I see it you were able to persevere because you had the monetary resources and time to pull it off, even if it took you 20 years instead of 10 and a quarter million bucks.

I have imagined myself in Van's shoes.  I can probably do that easier than a lot of people here.  If I woke up tomorrow in Van's shoes before I even had my first cup of coffee I would be on the phone to Jack and yes, I could pull it off given his circumstances, that is if I spent a lot of time on RWD reading everything I could. 

Van is on the road to success as it is so why throw kinks in the works seeking some rather expensive shortcuts seeking instant gratification.  He can probably do quite well at the local library, grocer, book store, laundromat, gas station, church, sport events, dance club, whatever.  My gut feeling is he needs only exposure and not the hand holding you suggest.

I am not the one trying to throw kinks in his road to success.  The people at the library, the book store and the grocer were there last year too.
 

In fact, look at the 7th commandment "Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful."  In a way you are asking Van to ignore it by getting on a plane to be somebody he is not.

Truthfully I don't think Van really knows who he is for sure yet.  He is a different person than he was and he seems like a really nice person that the right woman is going to be very happy with.  He has shown some great qualities that I can almost envy.  I am not suggesting he pretend to be someone he is not.  I am suggesting that by getting on the plane it might be a shortcut to find out who he really is.  If I am wrong he won't be wasting that much more money than he would taking a vacation to a warm sunny beach (alone of course).  Sometimes the only way to find something out is to try it. 

[Ade]

 Again, based on IMHO incorrect assumptions. Shy, introverted men have one advantage: they spent their lives observing people, analyzing people from the sidelines. Sure, they may not have much dating experience, but often they are much better at picking up on subtle social signs than the wannabe players who are more likely to take risks and not think things through...
 

 So now who is making assumptions exactly?  Come on, do you honestly believe that all shy, inexperienced men "spend their lives observing and analyzing people"? Even if some do, do you think that all of them have the wherewithal to use that for anything practical? There are usually very understandable reasons why some men have little experience with women and I think it normally has little to do with the opposite sex.
 
 My general advice to anyone that is very inexperienced with women and relationships; avoid FSUW.

[Turboguy]

 
My general advice to anyone that is very inexperienced with women and relationships; avoid FSUW.

If they don't know how to say NO to a woman who asks for $ 400.00 boots and $ 500.00 cell phones on the day they arrive then I would agree with your comment.  Otherwise, it is their buck to spend however they want.  Some inexperienced men have reasons for that inexperience.  Sometimes they can change those reasons.
 
As far as if introverted men tend to be more observant, I would say yes.   Usually an extroverted person is too wrapped up in himself to observe others and the things around them. 
 
 

[Ade]

 
 If they don't know how to say NO to a woman who asks for $ 400.00 boots and $ 500.00 cell phones on the day they arrive then I would agree with your comment.  Otherwise, it is their buck to spend however they want.  Some inexperienced men have reasons for that inexperience.  Sometimes they can change those reasons.
 
 

 Yes, it's their choice to make. But we are here to give our honest advice so they can try to make an informed choice, yes?
 
 I think that it's entirely possible for a shy 40  year old man that has never been married, had no long term relationships or even had much experience with dating, and has never travelled to have some success in the FSU, but it's unlikely. It is, however, much more likely that he will be used and abused by the unscrupulous.
 
 

As far as if introverted men tend to be more observant, I would say yes.   Usually an extroverted person is too wrapped up in himself to observe others and the things around them.
 

 Generalizing doesn't make it true Turbo. And like I said, just because someone observes it doesn't mean they have the sense or experience to do anything with the information.

[Admin]

A Quick Topic Post-Mortem:

Post # 1 (a/k/a 'OP') - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg270554#msg270554

Pretty good post by a new member who seems sincere. Welcome aboard Van!

On page 1 of the topic there are a great many well-intended and valuable comments - which I will not address, generally. Following are a few that stand out, for various reasons:

Reply # 6 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg270565#msg270565

Clearly Ade meant to send a 'message' - even with the 'edited' version of the post. Posting with hidden meaning, as in this instance, strikes me as disingenuous and unhelpful.

Reply # 14 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg270592#msg270592

I concur with GQBlues that Van demonstrated a couple of VERY rare and positive characteristics. He identified areas for improvement, and he acted on them. All else aside - the fact that Van demonstrated that he is willing to look introspectively for areas to improve - find them - and then act on the productively - THIS is something EVERYONE should do (IMNSHO).

Reply # 23 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg270993#msg270993

A veer in direction for the topic - and one that has a fairly predictable response and outcome.

Reply # 25 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271005#msg271005

Anytime one Commercial Member, in this case Jack, makes the choice to criticize another Commercial Member, in this case Eduard, fireworks *will* erupt - and they did, with this post being the start.

Reply # 30 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271013#msg271013

And it escalates. Now the topic has turned entirely away from focus on the OP and is, instead, focusing on tangential issues.

Reply # 40 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271042#msg271042

Pat tries to get things back on-track. Thanks Pat. Once derailed, these things are tough to get straightened out, but I appreciate the effort.

Reply # 42 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271046#msg271046

Use of the acronym "STFU" with this particular choice of sentence/word construction can be interpreted as if the author is directing the comment to a specific individual, or making a more generic statement. To the extent it was directed at a member, it is OTT. My 'sense' (giving the benefit of the doubt) is that it was made more in the sense of a general comment to no one in particular, but only the author knows for sure. If it was intended as a comment to VWRW then I suggest the author issue a public apology.

Reply # 49 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271053#msg271053

 

Admittedly, it was a direct response to a direct question - but that is really nobody's business and neither the question nor the answer should have been proffered, IMO.

Reply # 50 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271054#msg271054

Making use of the TMI, the escalation continues - now involving parties not members of RWD.

Reply # 58 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=profile;u=100

Another attempt to get things 'back within the banks.' Thanks for the effort Muzh - it *is* appreciated, by the RWD Staff at least.

Reply # 63 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271148#msg271148

Yet another attempt, this time by a member with not many posts, Mike78, trying to recognize the positive aspects of the topic and regain focus.

Reply # 70 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271174#msg271174

A *very* interesting observation of the OP from one of RWD's 'crustier' (and insightful members). Nice catch I/O.

Reply # 75 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg271183#msg271183

While I disagree with Misha's opening paragraph, the fundamental premise of his post is sound. Since its inception, RWD has had difficulty finding the balancing point between being welcoming to ALL and at the same time offering unvarnished advice to others. We continue to search for that balance - and I continue to believe the solution lies in 'delivery' of the message. There are none more capable of discouraging someone from this pursuit than Gator - yet he accomplishes it without insult. We could ALL learn from Gator - and I mean that VERY sincerely.

There is more I might comment on - but this should suffice. Before electing to post this Reply, I toyed with the idea of splitting the topic or making some other edits. Ultimately, I decided to use it as an object lesson - FWIW.

- Dan

[Misha]

 

It is, however, much more likely that he will be used and abused by the unscrupulous.

 
Why? Based on what? As Muzh said so succinctly, shy is not stupid.
 

Generalizing doesn't make it true Turbo.

What was your previous statement above if not a gross generalization?

[Ade]

Reply # 6 - http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13646.msg270565#msg270565

Clearly Ade meant to send a 'message' - even with the 'edited' version of the post. Posting with hidden meaning, as in this instance, strikes me as disingenuous and unhelpful.

Disingenuous? Really? I could have just removed everything and left an empty post but I wanted to explain why I removed what I said to those who may have read the original. Nice that you think so much of me. 

[Ade]

 
Why? Based on what? As Muzh said so succinctly, shy is not stupid.

No, but shyness does not automatically make someone insightful and intelligent either.

What was your previous statement above if not a gross generalization?

Gross generalization? Perhaps. But pretty damn accurate as generalisations go IMO.

[Admin]

Disingenuous? Really? I could have just removed everything and left an empty post but I wanted to explain why I removed what I said to those who may have read the original. Nice that you think so much of me. 

Ade,

I separate (or try to) the actions from the person. My comment was directed at your post - and for the reasons stated, I *do* believe a post such as that is disingenuous. It serves no productive purpose.

- Dan

[Misha]

Gross generalization? Perhaps. But pretty damn accurate as generalisations go IMO.

Ah, the classic "because I said so" proof 

[myheart2ukraine]

I thought about trying the foreign option for a round a year. I read this forum for several months. I guess it breaks down to if am shy and of average income can this work for me?

van your just the guy i think my girlfriend can help you with your quest for love/romance in ukraine
as you are just starting out on this quest you will be easy meat for every scammer here in ukraine, remember scammers are just doing there job here same as you do your job
if you don`t decide 2 use lyudmila then remember you must have a plan B allways when visiting ukraine for at-least you will have 1 good contact here in ternopil region   www.myheart2ukraine.co.uk
myheart2ukraine  veteran     

[Gator]

Elvis has left the building, and the audience still entertains itself.  Happens a lot at RWD.

[BC]

BC, I start chirping when I see nonsense being spouted.  Of course what might be nonsense to me might be very logical to someone else and vice versa.

Repeat that 10 times to yourself.  So only your nonsense makes sense?

If the American dating scene works so well, why is Van single? Why is there an RWD? Why are we all here?   I did a lot of dating in the American dating scene and there were very few women I met that I would have considered marrying.  If it is so great why is that?

That's not really the question I asked, but all right, lets take your statement  "A very few women I met that I would have considered marrying."  That's actually a good deal or?  Maybe your considerations were not returned in kind?  Why was that.  A few is actually quite a lot when you only need one to marry.. unless there is a candy store down the street.. or over an ocean.
 

 
PhotoGuy was as ready as he would ever be for this.  I had lunch with him a short while back.  Maybe things didn't turn out the way he hoped but I am quite sure from spending several hours talking to him that if he had it to do over again he would do it over again even if the outcome was the same.  A lot of guys tried to tell him it would not work, some in ways so crass that it was shameful, a few of us tried to defend and support him a bit.  No matter how many guys said he was wrong and no matter if ever single member of RWD had told him that he would have proceeded just as he did.  When people have thier mind made up they are not going to change it.

Again, sidestepping the question.  I infer from your response he was indeed not ready - or am I wrong about that also?  If so why did he not get back on the horse, or sign up for a tour or two?

I have imagined myself in Van's shoes.  I can probably do that easier than a lot of people here.  If I woke up tomorrow in Van's shoes before I even had my first cup of coffee I would be on the phone to Jack and yes, I could pull it off given his circumstances, that is if I spent a lot of time on RWD reading everything I could.

My question was whether or not Van is in position to follow the path you took, step for step.. like in 10 years and 100k+  You often tout that almost anyone can do it and I agree.. with practically unlimited funds and time.. something most of us don't have.  Surely you agree one should set his/her limits realistically.  If I have one pound of flour, a few cups of sugar, an egg or two  and some milk I can bake a cake.. but I can't bake two.  It's really that simple.  Lets say someone with 10k to spend on a search finally meets a very nice woman on the third tour and a trip with Eduard, but has neither the vacation time or funds to go back for another year or more.  Wouldn't that be kinda sad? the only alternative is to pull the K1 papers out and get it submitted in a rush.  Isn't that the thoughts that went through PG's mind when reality hit him smack in the face?  Oh yes, the 90 day 'trial' marriage alternative..  good luck with that number.

I am not the one trying to throw kinks in his road to success.  The people at the library, the book store and the grocer were there last year too.

Yes they were there.. in abundance, but was there exposure and persistence? - Only Van can answer that, but lets take your situation at your last social.. you totally disregarded a room full of Jack's brides on a hunch something better awaited elsewhere?  Yes it worked out for you and that's great but it does not say much about your intentions toward them.  You simply should have skipped it and flown to where you really wanted to be instead of wasting the time of the women that were waiting for you, or were they all really that bad?  Ahh.. but yes you needed to accompany your son.. IIRC you were trying to show him how to do this RW 'thing' also or?  I take it that did not work out either, or is he still following your advice by signing up for more tours or working with Eduard?  Or maybe this 'thing' is indeed not for everybody?
 

Truthfully I don't think Van really knows who he is for sure yet.  He is a different person than he was and he seems like a really nice person that the right woman is going to be very happy with.  He has shown some great qualities that I can almost envy.  I am not suggesting he pretend to be someone he is not.  I am suggesting that by getting on the plane it might be a shortcut to find out who he really is.  If I am wrong he won't be wasting that much more money than he would taking a vacation to a warm sunny beach (alone of course).  Sometimes the only way to find something out is to try it.

Did Van say that?  I read his two short posts a couple of times and can't find where he states he does not know himself yet.   I think he knows himself quite well and is on a roll - I can only suggest he keep to his proven course and not get sidetracked with your 'shortcut'.  You should give him more credit instead of guessing.

BTW Relationships 101 for the Middle Aged is somewhere down the hall.

[LAman]

 You call that being critical? I think a kick in the cojones would be a lot more comfortable. Seriously, do you talk to people this way?

Muzh....my post was critical of Van  but you highlighted only what you felt was negative but never mentioned later in post when I applauded something I felt positive he did. I never intended for any of my remarks to be personal.
 
This FSU adventure is NOT for everyone, as someone has mentioned..... but a question to all here..... is it SOP for every newbie coming here told just get on plane and go to FSU or now, on Jack tour?

[Gator]

 
This FSU adventure is NOT for everyone, as someone has mentioned..... but a question to all here..... is it SOP for every newbie coming here told just get on plane and go to FSU or now, on Jack tour?

That was not my recommendation.  I believe the equivalent of some "basic training" is necessary before Van hits the beach. 
 
In the recent film Jack Goes Boating Philip Seymour Hoffman played a shy gentle man who found a shy woman who thought him wonderful.  However, it took months and much patience and trust and attentiveness and cooking school and swimming lessons and..... BTW, she lived in his city and spoke English.  The sex scene in that film has no resemblance with   "alpha male meets hot RW."
 
Maybe those recommending travel believe what Lonely Planet purports:  travel makes you smarter, sexier and more productive.
 
http://inside-digital.blog.lonelyplanet.com/2011/06/17/how-travel-makes-you-smarter-sexier-and-more-productive/?affil=lpemail

[Gator]

Here's a trailer from Jack Goes Boating.
 
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/jack_goes_boating/trailers/11094902
 
There are women in Russia just like Connie in the film.  My dearest lady has an attractive friend in her early 40s who is still a virgin.  Yes, she is attractive.  Yes, still a virgin.  Her gynecologist is concerned.  How to make the connection between such people and somehow facilitate a relationship in  a compressed schedule?

[Jumper]

That was not my recommendation.  I believe the equivalent of some "basic training" is necessary before Van hits the beach. 
 
In the recent film Jack Goes Boating Philip Seymour Hoffman played a shy gentle man who found a shy woman who thought him wonderful.  However, it took months and much patience and trust and attentiveness and cooking school and swimming lessons and..... BTW, she lived in his city and spoke English.  The sex scene in that film has no resemblance with   "alpha male meets hot RW."
 
Maybe those recommending travel believe what Lonely Planet purports:  travel makes you smarter, sexier and more productive.
 
http://inside-digital.blog.lonelyplanet.com/2011/06/17/how-travel-makes-you-smarter-sexier-and-more-productive/?affil=lpemail

well.....
 The OP is likely gone,
i'm on injured reserve, and therefor bored..


 I'd think getting out and about
 (wherever out and about is ,which would include locally)
increases exposure and generally  their odds in meeting someone..
regardless gender or personality.
.
In general, if somewhat observant , it would increase their knowledge of their own or other cultures , and add life experiences.. hardly a negative.

Few men will meet someone on their couch,so whatever gets them off  of it ..

verses
 
whatever they are doing right *now* that hasn't been working.


Naturally some things that get them off the couch are higher risk than others.
and naturally exposure  increases risk.

In a pretty much even ratio? Double your exposure, likely doubles your risk.
(of meeting  bad person? or what have you)


Not to discredit the level of risk someone takes in marrying anyone,
 
but I never considered meeting women a high risk proposition,
no matter where they lived or  came from..
few live on the edge of a volcano..

After meeting you are a long way from marriage at that point, with nothing but your own time frames to decide to take the riskier steps.
Without meeting , you are very unlikely to marry anyone..if that is your goal.

So meeting and an element of risk being  pretty much a given...

 it comes down to how lucky does someone feel?
Did GQ and Jack shoot 5 shots,  or 6?
 



I'm not so good at risk management, relationships are on the safe side of all my choices.

Whats the worse that can happen? a divorce?
Call me jaded , but 50% of everyone reading will likely have that happen regardless.

 

                 

[Ade]

Ade,

I separate (or try to) the actions from the person. My comment was directed at your post - and for the reasons stated, I *do* believe a post such as that is disingenuous. It serves no productive purpose.

- Dan

Dan, you're not ignorant of the meaning of disingenuous but I'll put in here for those that aren't to highlight why I feel pretty damn insulted;

"lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically"

You honestly think that my post was any of those things?
 

[Boethius]

I will say, I saw the original post.  I think it was intended as helpful to Van, and likely would have been, but it disclosed personal information which Ade had second thoughts about disclosing just after he posted.