Hello and a few questions

[van1970]

I thought about trying the foreign option for a round a year. I read this forum for several months. I guess it breaks down to if am shy and of average income can this work for me?
 
A little about myself, Two years ago my sister gave birth to a girl. I feel in love with her and want some children of my own. I made a three part plan. I lost eighty pounds. I bought a home. I looked for a woman. I have looked for over a year now.
 
I am 41 years old. I have never been in a serious relationship. I really want to have children. It seems to me that women my age either don't want to have children or already have the children they want. It equally seems that younger women want someone there own age. I work for the government and I make around 40k.
 
Now to summaries what I think I have read. Tours are bad now as the same women go to them and drive away and new women. It a good way to have fun but it isn't a good way to find a life partner. Ukraine, Moscow, and St Petersburg have many foreign men and rich local men. Elana's Models is one of the best sites.
 
Is that a good summary? I barely understand any russian. I done the first level of Rosental stone so using a foreign langauge site doesn't really work for. Is it likely if I can do this successfully?
 
Thanks for any advise.
Van

[Jack]

I work for the government and I make around 40k.
 

   
 
  Going to be tight. It's do able, but tight.     
 
 
 
 

Now to summaries what I think I have read. Tours are bad

     

Ukraine, Moscow, and St Petersburg have many foreign men and rich local men. 

   

Is that a good summary?

     
 
I think not a good summary.     
 
First you need to read, learn, not all tours are created equal.  Some tours are good. Of course I'm going to be bias with that assumption but I know it to be 100% true.     
 
Ukraine does not have many foreign and rich local men.     
 
Now Kiev, Odessa, yea, as with Moscow and St. Pete, probably most would consider a valid statement. 
 
But to consider this be true about the whole country of Ukraine?     I don't think so.   
 
 

[Jack]

 

[Faux Pas]

Yeah probably not a "good" summary.


My personal belief is that there is a butt for every bucket. Whether or not your bucket is in the FSU remains to be seen but most certainly is a possibility.


van, do you date at all at home? Women no matter where you find them still have to be woo'd, wined, dined and sixty-nined, mostly. You mentioned your shyness, that can be the same problem there as it is here.


I'd suggest you seriously consider the idea to the next step than you are currently at. Prepare and do step out of your comfort zone. Allow some women to get to know you and then prepare to build some relationships and see where it may lead. You don't get any free passes because the ladies live across the ocean and you have to travel to meet them. Quite the contrary.


You may want to consider a service such as Jack (the other poster thus far). It's a good idea to get your feet wet and learn the lay of the land with some help. The exploration is time consuming and relatively expensive. You have to decide if it's for you.


Good luck guy and welcome to RWD!

[Ade]

Van,

I'm not sure the FSU is for you. Generally, it's expensive to do this the right way (although a rare few manage to do it successfully on the cheap with just one visit) and there are many women there that can take advantage of a well meaning but inexperienced guy.

I hesitate to suggest this but if you're truly looking for a younger woman to settle down with and have kids with, perhaps the Philipines would be a better option - although I have no personal experience, my perception is that it'll be cheaper, less prone to scams and the women are less likely to want an excessive lifestyle. I also see many men here with Filipino brides (there's even a TV show folowing a bunch of couples like this) and there's often a large age disparity but they seem happy enough and tend to have kids too.

[TwoBitBandit]

Van,


This road you're considering is a rough one.  The girls in the FSU are beautiful, but if you meet the wrong one or even a semi-honest one that thinks you're a convenient mark they won't hesitate to take advantage of you.  Their expertise in manipulating men is far higher than that of their western sisters.


Your lack of dating experience will be an issue.  The FSU isn't a magic cure for dating problems.  You can up a notch in the looks department and the age difference, but you still gotta display confidence and know how to handle women.  If you can't successfully date your peers here in the United States, going to Russia won't fix that.


The advice I'm inclined to give you is to go slow and plan on making multiple trips.  Really be sure you know a girl before tying the knot.  (Although the fact that you make $40K a year makes it difficult to do.)


I'm inclined to agree with Ade that the FSU may not be for you.  However, I'm not one to try to stop a guy who is willing to take responsibility for his own actions.  Just realize that you're stepping into a minefield.  Go as slow as you can and read the archives on this forum... especially the trip reports.

[Ade]

[Edit]
Deleted because I've reconsidered this post.

Not that it wasn't true, as it was, and I even went out of my way to understate what I thought too.

But, I don't think it was right for me to disclose confidences that weren't mine to disclose.
[/Edit]

[Patagonie]

I think you can try a tour with Jack, i would say you MUST try a tour with Jack. He will protect you and you will get an amazing knowledge of the scene in short time.
You seem to have the willing, you have lost weight and you want to change.
Good really good.
But you have two weakness : in my opinion a tight income (hoping 40 k is worth) and what TwoBandits has said : "Your lack of dating experience will be an issue.  The FSU isn't a magic cure for dating problems."
Make a tour with Jack, it will be funny, real vacation for you, it will cost you, but really less than the whole MOB system who will treat like a cow. So in my opinion it's the way to discover and after you would take a real decision about your future.

[Turboguy]

As far as the tours are bad comment, If you said "most" tours are bad" it would be correct.  I have taken three big agency tours, the type the AFA and a few others do and I would not recommend them.   I have also taken one of Jack's tours and there is a night and day difference and I would highly recommend them to anyone but particularly to someone making his first trip to the FSU and even more so to someone who has not traveled abroad.
 
You would meet a lot of really great and serious women and the education alone is worth the price. 

[I/O]

Van: You want children? What about the machine that whom produces them? You may be a decent guy but from your post, I don't doubt you've never had a serious relationship.

The first thing you need to get your head around is if you want anyone, particularly a mind-of-her-own woman in your life, then, marriage, commitment and then, only then, after, long after you have all that sorted should you consider bringing children into the world. BTW as a father to a recent born, there is NO greater joy but you'd better make jolly sure you are bringing that joy into and onto a solid platform.

As for the logistics, finances etc, IMO it's all a bit of crap really. It's not that hard to sort it out and frankly speaking, if you need much help doing so, don't start.

[Muzh]

Women no matter where you find them still have to be woo'd, wined, dined and sixty-nined, mostly.
 

Ow, is that teachable?   
 
 
Hey Van. Go for it. It's your life and your opportunity. Have fun. That's the secret. Have fun.
 
One little suggestion since everyone is concerned about your salary not being enough. Take your time to meet a woman and skype with her as much as you can. Be realistic of who you chase. Experienced or not, you can tell if a person has the potential by communicating with her. Then go.
 
Also, do ask about visas and flights and the logistics. Do not ask questions regarding a woman you have met unless you have very thick skin. IMHO, if you have to ask what we think about a woman or her doings, you shouldn't be doing this.
 
Your pic is okay. No Brad Pitt but no Quasimodo either. An average guy. Remember this, physique will attract, personality will conquer.
 
Go for it.
 
Good luck.

[Faux Pas]

Ow, is that teachable?   
 
 

Who's teaching? 




For those concerned about the guy's salary, 40K certainly isn't by any means an opulent lifestyle nowadays but, it isn't necessarily how much you make as it is, what you do with what you make. Casting aspersions about his salary is to put it mildly, way out in left field and no indication of whether he "should or shouldn't" pursue an FSUW.


Many people lead some very happy lives as couples on much less.

[Ade]

Who's teaching? 




For those concerned about the guy's salary, 40K certainly isn't by any means an opulent lifestyle nowadays but, it isn't necessarily how much you make as it is, what you do with what you make. Casting aspersions about his salary is to put it mildly, way out in left field and no indication of whether he "should or shouldn't" pursue an FSUW.


Many people lead some very happy lives as couples on much less.

Of course his gross salary doesn't say much in isolation but with cost of living in his area and how much discretionary income he's left with, it says a lot; like how often can travel and for how long, and how much he can afford once his new wife has relocated. Doing the international romance thing right is not inexpensive even when done on the cheap; emphasis here on "right". If he's as inexperienced as he says he's probably going to take longer to find someone than the average guy and need more trips to be sure.

Or he could do the usual thing which, in all likelihood, will turn pear-shaped and play a bit of fast and loose Russian roulette.

[wicheese]

Van,
 
You have received some good advice, but I would disagree about your statement about St. Petersburg or Moscow being a bad place to look as they are huge cities and unless you are looking for the model quality lady, you will find a lot of options in those cities (be sure to look in the mirror and be honest with yourself in what you can attract as a person usually can upgrade on your options in your own city, but not too much).  What you can be sure about is that many women in their mid to late 30's who have not had children are really looking to have them.
 
Also, just saying you make $40K is difficult to judge if you can afford it as a lot depends on what part of the country you live and what levels of debt you are supporting (be sure this is not a cheap endeavor). 
 
Related to sites, EM is a good one, but you might also look at a few of the free sites like Mamba.  Plus, I always tell people that eHarmony is not so bad either as you can set your search radius to the entire world and might find some interesting ladies with a few being in the FSU.
 
To your experience, you can be sure that the women in the FSU know what they are doing as they have options.  The days of exploiting any type of economic advantage where the lady will accept you for the life you provide, I feel, are fast coming to a close if not closed already.  So you will need to win their affection based on who you are and how well you navigate language and cultural differences which comes down to experience.  Plus, you will need to be able to figure out if they have honest intentions which again is made more difficult based on distance, language, and culture.
 
Bottom line, I will tell you the same thing I tell anyone else who is thinking about looking in the FSU, stay home as it'll be a lot easier and if you can't attract anyone at home then figure out why and fix it.
 
 

[GQBlues]

Van,
 
It's very simple really. You already earned my admiration when you said....
　

I made a three part plan. I lost eighty pounds. I bought a home. I looked for a woman. I have looked for over a year now....

Most of what folks are missing here are 2 HUGE accomplishments you made borne by innocence inspiration. In 2 years time, you lost 80 lbs., and with an earning of 40K, you bought yourself a home. Not too many people can say they can do what you just did, man. That's something you can hold close to your attitude/confidence treasure chest.
 
The fact you also didn't hurl any type of blame to the mythical feminists and the O'Donnell sisters to your social woes, gets huge brownie points from me. When you knew you wanted to take on a path in your life, you took charge and started with yourself, and goddangit, I like that!
 
Will it work for you? A bit of tweaking with your attitude, personality and perspective, you betcha!
 
So to start, in terms of physical appearance, you're already ahead of the herd. Listen, more than half the guys in this pursuit look worst than you, and that's including me, man. Most of them are old and fat and I'm serious about that. The funny thing is, they all look for women who are younger (much younger) and slim as apparently they don't like old and fat women, LOL. Ironic, isn’t it? Something about being 'old' and 'fat' they find disgusting...
 
But did they get the chicks when they hit FSU? Of course they did...that's why they went there in the first place.
 
Anyway, my advice...get rid of the tie, unbutton the shirt and get a nice little make-over. Not much. I'll estimate no more than $400 bucks. A nice short ruffled razor haircut from a good stylist, no part, just the shower-n-go look will do wonders for your facial features. Lose the Clark Kent look and get contact lenses.
 
Don't underestimate the power of positive self. Boosting your attitude and confidence create opportunities too many men take for granted. It gives you a brighter perspective in all things. Don't fall into the abyss that your sorry fate is everyone else’s fault but your own, which you seem not to possess. Spend that $400 and give what I'm telling you a bit of a chance and start looking at women in a different light. Many will be so happy you are still around and available.
 
You already have what it takes, Van, you’ve already proven that. You now just need to make this (w/women) happen like you have with the other segments of your life. Release yourself...
 
Always remember this, fishing in a barrel doesn't make you a better fisherman.
 

[van1970]

I thank you for the input.
 
Do I date. I didn't date during my fat period. I have been on match.com for a year and I gotten one date out of it. I thought it went well but she wouldn't return my calls. Oh well.
 
Of my 40k gross, I save about 10k of it each year. I put down 40k on my 120k home. I plan to make an extra payment each year and have it paid off in 10 years. I have no other debt. I watch my pennies. It was how I was raised by my father and his father before him.
 
About the machine, I know myself. I can be friends with ninety percent of the people and good friends with over half the people I meet. I know I can grow to be great friends with just about anyone that is also welling to put in the effort.
 
I have tried mamba in the past but without the language skills I didn't find it to useful. The free search engine listed way to many people.
 
As far as age gap goes I was thinking no more than 10 years. I wouldn't think about someone under 28. I say 28 as in Little women the ideal age was half the mans age plus 7.
 
Van

[TheTraveler]

Van, Before you embark on this journey, I'd suggest a domestic-model slumpbuster just to get some momentum.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slumpbuster
 

[LAman]

Van....to be honest and frank...it was depressing reading your OP.
I felt compassion for you. I do firmly believe, if you cannot date women you are looking for at home..you'll not have better luck in FSU....you will have anguish, heartbreak and empty pockets.
 
I do applaud you for your personal 'gains' in your situation. I don't know how one 'changes' their personality. It could be inside ready to come out but mostly people are what they are. And you need to find someone who accepts who you are. It is MUCH easier done at home!!
I do also believe there is someone for each of us but you may never find her...so best to be happy with yourself....the self confidence mentioned earlier.
 
By the way..the match date...there is a reason she didn't return calls...sorry dude

[Gator]

Van,

I encourage you to try, but with baby steps.
 
The good news:  There is someone for everyone. 

The bad news:  The problems you have with AW will not disappear simply because you are in country that speaks Russian.  In fact, you could have some really bad experiences in the FSU, far worse than being snubbed.

I am not concerned about your being shy and earning a modest income.  What is  worse is your inexperience.  I don’t know if you have the ability to select appropriate women to pursue.

My suggestion:    Do not take a trip now - you will be a wall flower.

• Avoid mamba and instead spend about $100 to join a listing agency that facilitates contacts between men and women (i. e., not a “pay by the letter” agency). 
• Seek help in preparing a profile.
• The $100 probably will get you a six-month membership; use the six months to contact a large number of women and to understand what types of women are interested in you.
• Each two weeks of your membership, send “winks” and “expressions of interest” to 10  women (not just any woman, but those who know some English, seem to have a gentle soul, and are not so beautiful on the outside).
• Write short letters to those who respond favorably (again, have someone help you with a canned letter or two for openers).
• Analyze the results and adjust your criteria for selecting the next 10 women to contact.
• At the end of six months you will have contacted over 100 women with this plan.    I guarantee that some will be interested in you with correspondence well underway.  From there you can start deciding when you are ready for a visit.

[Jack]

  Van first let me admit that I have not read all the replies in this post, mostly the last half dozen. With that being said I'm going to respectfully disagree with several of the most recent comments passed on to you with the exception of Gators post.     
 
Van I think you would do well with finding a good Ukraine/Russian wife in certain areas of Ukraine and Russia.  There will of course be some areas you will have a much harder time in succeeding, due to many factors which I can go into at another time, cities such as Moscow, Kiev, St. Pete, Odessa, Volgograd, Novosibirsk, etc.     
 
There will be area's you could concentrate on where you really could find women who would love to meet you and would love to fall in love with you. Some of those Ukraine cities could be Pavelograd, Kremenchug, Krivoy Rog, Kirovgrad, Cherkassy, Uman, Nikopol, Zitomir, and many more cities like these.     
 
The problem as I see it Van will be $.  Plain and simple.  If you were ever able to make your first trip, and you met several ladies, you would build a great amount of self confidence regardless of how little you have dated, or do date in US.  Regardless of what all the experts here tell you, with American and Ukr/Rus women we are NOT comparing apples to apples.  I have seen a lot of men who I can say had little self confidence, low self esteem based on their American dating experience and who have become new men once they began dating Ukr/Rus ladies.     
 
With your first meeting with a Ukr/Rus woman your going to be nervous. And your going to be nervous with your second meeting. Not quite as nervous with third meeting.  By the time you have met seven, eight ladies, your nervousness, or un-easiness, is going to be greatly reduced.     
 
Van I want to relate one story to you, and I have several, several more stories like this. It was about 2002 or 2003 and I was talking to a man of about 37-38. He was a banker from Arizona. He was very good at his job in the banking world.  I don't know how or why he got the idea of seeking a Russian bride, maybe because he was living in Phoenix, home of AFA.   He did write me, later called me.  He was considering doing an AFA tour or one of my tours.  I sent him about a half dozen references who had done both the AFA tour and my tour, asked him to contact all the guys and that pretty much sealed the deal as to who he was going to do his tour with.     
 
But Van, this man, and we need to give him a name, it's not his real name but we'll call him Bob, Bob still was not convinced going to Russia or Ukraine was going to work for him.  In his mind, based on his actual dating experiences with American women, he really thought it would be a waste of his time.     
 
Bob was in good shape, about 6ft tall, 190 pounds, played high school football, some small college football, he went to gym and worked out.  He was in pretty good shape.  After a few months of talking and once Bob had decided on going I remember Bob saying this to me  "Ok, I'm going to go ahead and go on this trip but I know it will be a waste of time".  And what he was referring to was it was going to be a waste of time as far as Ukraine/Russian women having any interest in him.     
 
Bob made the trip. I meet him in Kiev, took him as part of a tour to Kharkov, Lugansk, Dnepropetrovsk.       
 
Bob was also shy starting out. Very nervous with first meeting, second meeting. By the end of the trip Bob could not believe the great number of very real, attractive Ukraine women who had interest in him.  I did tell Bob, as I tell probably 90% of the guys who are making their first trip, "This trip will change your life".   
 
 Bob could not believe it.  Bob made another trip with me about 6 months later. Met some wonderful ladies.  Bob could not believe the number of beautiful Ukraine women who really had an interest in him.  
 
Bob, being the excellent banker that he was took a new position at a new bank as it's VP.  He got a pretty good deal.  He saved all his money, he did not make a trip to Ukraine that year although he talked about it, thought about it.  Another year passes, he has saved his money. Another bank wants Bob, makes him a great offer, Bob takes it, saves his money. It was probably close to four years that Bob went without making a trip to Ukraine but he would call me after every trip, want me to send him photos, asked a lot of questions. The desire to go back to Ukraine never faded and in fact only grew, so much to the point he wanted to live there. In Ukraine he got the type of attention from pretty ladies that he never got in America.     

Bob decided he was going to move to Ukraine. His plan was he was going to visit three cities, all three cities he had previously been to, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Nikolaev. He was going to pick one of these three cities and live there and learn Russian. Once he learned Russian he was going to move to Kiev, live in Kiev and with his extensive banking knowledge and able to speak pretty good Russian, he felt he would be able to get a high paying banking job in Kiev.  And he probably would have.     
 
Well, to make a long story short, after I had made arrangements for nice places for him to live in the center of Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Nikoleav, three years ago Bob went to Kharkov to begin this new phase of his life.  Bob never left Kharkov.   It's been almost three years now that Bob has lived in Kharkov.     
 
Bob speaks pretty good Russian. Every trip I have made to Kharkov the last three years Bob is always excited to see me and the new group of men. Bob is a great inspiration to a lot of the guys and he often makes several new friends with each tour. I'm sure there are guys who are reading this who have met "Bob" and know what a nice guy he is.     
 
And as I mention above Van, Bob is not the only client I have seen who left America with little confidence and self esteem and return as a new man.     
 
Van I am not concerned about any shyness you have, I am not concerned about your past dating habits of American women or even your lack of dating American women,  I am not concerned about you not having confidence in Ukraine women based on your experience with American women.   I am concerned about you having the financial ability to make this work for you.  It's probably not going to be a one trip, find a wife, life happily ever after. That's probably not going to happen on your first trip. Your first trip is going to be such an eye opener, such events and possible feelings that you have never had before. It is going to be a great learning experience.  It's probably going to take a minimum of two trips and probably three or four trips.  That Van is going to take some serious dough.   
 
Now, in the case of Bob, he saved up his money, he saved for close to four years and did not make any trips during this time.   Maybe you save enough money for one trip, meet several ladies, build that confidence that you can find an attractive, loving and caring foreign wife from the many women you will meet and then you, like Bob, save enough money that you can make a few trips a few years from now.     
 
I will tell you this Van in all sincerity, if you do make a trip to Ukraine and meet several ladies the trip WILL change your life. You will be coming back to Ukraine.   

[Vinnvinny]

I think I know Bob. 

[Anotherkiwi]

...Well, to make a long story short, after I had made arrangements for nice places for him to live in the center of Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Nikoleav, three years ago Bob went to Kharkov to begin this new phase of his life.  Bob never left Kharkov.   It's been almost three years now that Bob has lived in Kharkov.     
 
Bob speaks pretty good Russian. Every trip I have made to Kharkov the last three years Bob is always excited to see me and the new group of men. Bob is a great inspiration to a lot of the guys and he often makes several new friends with each tour. I'm sure there are guys who are reading this who have met "Bob" and know what a nice guy he is...

But, Jack, has he found true love and happiness with a "smokinghotkova?" 

[SteveOR]

Of my 40k gross, I save about 10k of it each year. I put down 40k on my 120k home. I plan to make an extra payment each year and have it paid off in 10 years. I have no other debt. I watch my pennies. It was how I was raised by my father and his father before him.

Van-
 
I had a feeling from your first post that you knew the value of a dollar.  That's a good thing.
 
Go with Jack's group in September.  I went with his group for New Years.  A good value, especially for someone who has not traveled to Ukraine before.
 
The ladies are warm and friendly.  Yeah, some of them are scammers and some have no intention of leaving Mom and country but most are just nice ladies who want to get married and start a family.  Don't worry about the language difference.  Most know a little English.  Learn a few words of Russian.  You don't need many.  Yes, No, Thank you work for a start and are easy to learn.
 
You're young, employed, have money in the bank, own your own home and know how to wear a suit and tie.  What more do you need?  Get on the airplane and go!  And if you haven't already, give Jack a call.  He really does know what he's talking about (http://www.firstdream.com).
 
-Steve
 
P.S. You'll obviously need a passport if you don't have one.  Get some passport pictures taken at Walgreens or similar place this weekend and get the forms and money sent to the government as soon as possible as it can take some time to get the passport back (http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_1738.html).  US citizens do not need a visa for Ukraine. . .
 
 

[GQBlues]

I suppose it would only seem fair that Eduard make an appearance and pitch in his sales presentation. What's right for the goose.....
 
Van, IMO, there's more to a relationship than just meeting someone, anyone. Consider this like you losing weight. The challenge is not necessarily in the accomplishing the objective, but rather maintaining it.
 
Don't lose sight of that fact.

[Turboguy]

I like Eduard and I think he offers a great service.  Personally I think Jack's tour would help him more right at the second.  I think the two services might be equal as far as finding a wife but  do think Jack's tour would help his confidence with women far more.  Meeting a woman who likes you and is interested in building a realtionship is not quite as positive an influnce on the ego as seeing dozens of women who think you are the greatest guy in the world.
 
I think if he went on one or two of Jack's tours his luck with American women would even be a hundred times better than it is now.  He will realize that he is a desirable guy with lots to offer a woman and his confidence level will make a dramatic change.   
 
I think however if he didn't find the right woman after a few of Jack's tours then Eduards services would be a wonderful option for him.