Cursing women

[SANDRO43]

A personal recollection about women swearing: a Marchioness family friend of ours often used very profane language, in our parlance she spoke like a scaricatore di porto (longshoreman/stevedore), but somehow she managed not sound as vulgar as could be expected .

I wondered for years about this curious impression, then I realised what her 'trick' was: she never put the sentence stress on her swear words as we generally do, so they sort of flowed almost harmlessly with the rest .

[Gator]

But she'd never lie and say that Russian doesn't have swear words.

Technically Kuna's wife did lie if she were under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. However.... Ade you are a smart man...... is it plausible that she simply asserted that Russian curse words are forbidden in her house.  She has been in Oz long enough to lose some of that FSUW directness.   It would be akin to saying husbands do not sleep with other women because if they do they are no longer husbands.

 

One thing I've noticed over the past 6 months, beside my wife and a few other odd exceptions here, most FSUW we know or know of seem to have a flexible view of the truth and of morality. Put it down to a cultural thing if you want.

Really Sherlock!!!  Has anyone ever seriously thought that the USSR was a honest-to-goodness society?  That Russia is not the same?  Thus, would a Russian telling a lie be a shock? 
 
I have noted that RW will avoid the truth to prevent a conflict, especially a conflict that would make elephants out of flies.  When dealing with real elephants, however, my perception is that RW demand and return pravda (at least the RW with whom I have spent a lot of time together).  Volunteering the truth?  A different matter.  Not many George Washington's in Russia.
 

I think that most WM haven't the foggiest idea; and I was one of the ignorant ones until recently.

Good luck guys. You're going to need plenty of it. 

One slice of humble pie served with two scoops of condescension.  What am I missing?  I have not read most of the threads over the past month. Is this Ade-Kuna interchange a carryover from a past thread?  Neither man is the type to forget something. 

[Faux Pas]

Go to Korrespondent, and read the comments to see how "nobody swears".  This is, unfortunately, very common.  I'm not saying it is uncommon here, I need only stand outside a high school for a bit, it is just more common, or "normalized" than here.  Perhaps, in another 10 years, that won't be the case.

I'm not exactly sure if it belongs on this conversation or not but the Brits seem to have managed to get "fookin" attached to about every other noun in the King's english. Of course I don't understand Russian being spoken so it may be worse than I know but, english speaking countries Britain is by far the worse IMO. Publicly speaking and hearing curse words anyway

[Boethius]

Plus, maybe we're just old, FP.

[Faux Pas]

Plus, maybe we're just old, FP.

Very likely a contributing factor too 

[Ade]

it's just that i just dont view an *attitude* of a woman ignoring something she disapproves of in this fashion ,
as in your earlier reference to Kunas post,
 as some kind of out right * lie*, or a dishonest person.
 
subtle difference perhaps.

Let me put it more explicitly. I now know that a lot, perhaps the majority, of FSUW from all walks of life and a variety of towns and cities across Russia and Ukraine, think nothing of lying to, or manipulating their husbands. I'm not talking of "scammers" here; I'm talking about your average FSU wife or girlfriend that thinks it's okay and absolutely normal to tell little fibs to manipulate their spouse because they are "the neck" in the relationship and it's up to them to point you guys in the right direction - as in the decisions they want you to make - no matter what that takes. Flexible ethics and morals are normal; praising a country because it trusts its citizens to declare if they need a train ticket on the one hand and then thinking it's okay to cheat and not buy one on the other, is a small, but telling example. "If the rules are such that they can be bent or broken without consequence, then they deserve to be bent or broken." Most don't consider this to be wrong.

Kuna's wife's little "white lie" that the Russian language doesn't contain swear words is a blatant lie no matter how you want to sugar it up and it is a symptom of the indifferent disregard that some or even most FSUW have for the truth. Why did she do it? Perhaps she is fiercely patriotic and she didn't want her husband to think any less of her culture. It still doesn't make it any less of a lie though.

[Ade]

I'm not exactly sure if it belongs on this conversation or not but the Brits seem to have managed to get "fookin" attached to about every other noun in the King's english. Of course I don't understand Russian being spoken so it may be worse than I know but, english speaking countries Britain is by far the worse IMO. Publicly speaking and hearing curse words anyway

I would agree.

My bad language used to be appalling. When you grow up in an environment where everyone swears constantly, swear words lose their meaning and it's almost like everyone has Coprolalia. Thankfully, my language is far, far better now and has become even more so since I met my wife.

Really Sherlock!!!  Has anyone ever seriously thought that the USSR was a honest-to-goodness society?  That Russia is not the same?  Thus, would a Russian telling a lie be a shock? 

Actually, I think WM have very little real idea of how this translates to FSUW and how they think.

One slice of humble pie served with two scoops of condescension.  What am I missing?  I have not read most of the threads over the past month. Is this Ade-Kuna interchange a carryover from a past thread?  Neither man is the type to forget something. 

You think that was condescending? Strange. I was just being truthful.

If my wife and I hadn't had quite a bit of contact with of WM/FSUW couples over the past year or so and if my wife hadn't been so candid about the conversations I would have remained blissfully unaware as to the extent of this mindset I've mentioned. I would have even (and I have probably done so in the past) railed against the sweeping negative generalisation if someone else had said the same thing a year ago. Well, we live and learn, and I'm the first to admit that I'm not always right.

[Gator]

Actually, I think WM have very little real idea of how this translates to FSUW and how they think.

It seems that some men tend to place RW on a pedestal well before they get to know the RW.   It is as if having a vagina automatically eliminates devious thinking in someone imprinted by Russian history, society and culture. 
 
Also, I find AW in general to be more devious than AM with regard to relationships (e. g., unlike women, a AM will tell you straightforward that he does not like you).  And if women are women everywhere....
 
Are there exceptions?  For sure.  I met several RW who avoid RM categorically, claiming that too many are "lying pigs."  These RW seemed sincere. So perhaps the character of these RW is honest, at least about major issues, compelling them to look to foreign men, hoping for pravda (as well as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow).
 
I got to know my two stepchildren very well.  The boy lied incessantly and would never admit he had lied even when presented with evidence of a lie.  This was so starkly different from my values and my sons.   His dishonesty really upset his mother who would punish him severely.  In contrast, his younger sister was bubbly and honest, even admitting to something when caught.    However, she was not beyond some minor devious actions.
 

 
You think that was condescending? Strange. I was just being truthful.

I misspoke.  I thought your opinion was based solely on accounts presented at RWD.  You wife is indeed the most reliable source.
 
 

If my wife and I hadn't had quite a bit of contact with of WM/FSUW couples over the past year or so and if my wife hadn't been so candid about the conversations I would have remained blissfully unaware as to the extent of this mindset I've mentioned. I would have even (and I have probably done so in the past) railed against the sweeping negative generalisation if someone else had said the same thing a year ago. Well, we live and learn, and I'm the first to admit that I'm not always right.

I have been told that RW tend to polarize socially around whether they are happy or unhappy with their marriage.  However, almost every woman relishes a little gossip.     

[Jumper]

Ade,
it can easily be taken as condescending when you  state *you guys* like you are perhaps the only man capable or lucky enough to have met a sincere honest woman.

If you don't catch that bit, well then I don't feel you are being completely honest.
 

Certainly we have seen cases of the men being manipulated by a FSU W.. often ending in divorce..of course wouldn't that equally beg the question, whether a western woman may have manipulated them before as well? since many are on second marriages..
    and i suppose we simply ignore the western men manipulation of  woman,, because culturally it isnt as prominent? lol
(despite the almost equal amounts we see it here eh?)


 The social glue in polite societies is indeed such *white lies* as you point out in Kuna's wife's example.
If you think your own wife, or yourself, are completely immune to practicing such lies ,then again you are not being honest here.or with yourself, and that is no matter how you try and spin and  wiggle around it,neither of you are 100% honest all the time in all social situations.If you want to make the issue black and white , then it is black and white, any falsehood ,and any with holding of all information, is the same as a lie ethically.


Now if you feel FSU  culture promotes manipulation  to a level unacceptable to you and amazingly just your RW wife
(and of course Boe's husband,, they are products of their cultures as well)
then i'd agree there is the overall acceptance of manipulating any system or others for personal gain.

I find it amazing and frankly amusing that the two of you *seem* to think few
 can notice such traits, in any given society or culture ,
and identify individuals within in it , that have  various ethics and character.

 Or that the married men here are routinely manipulated or lied to.
It is afterall what you are really saying, unless all here simply got got as lucky as you two.Then the generality about the society or culture would hardly fit very well statistically now would it?

I do see the culture for what it is , and have lived and worked within it. It is different, particularly in business situations,and I agree the cultural acceptance of manipulation of any system is more common.Or a attitude that its ok or even *clever* to put something over on another individual.

Yet you are married to an *exception*, and seem to not acknowledge there could and likely are many others that hold her beliefs and ethics..

This all sprang up over curse words  ,which i did not hear from FSU W nearly as much as you would from the average AW or British woman.
 I do not feel the czech culture is so different than other FSU regions in this regard, and i feel it is misinformation to tell readers an average RW uses curse words as often generally, as her western sisters.
Perhaps no less? but certainly no more than.
 If a FSU woman speaks like the OP mentioned, or like a  tramp or sailor, then likely she is from that same segment of society you'd find a woman with similar language to in the west.

Read the OPs post,the impression he has gotten somehow?
and tell me you also think most men here, get sworn or cursed at when dating FSU women?
would you answer yes, or no?
Is his impression on this cursing topic, from reading a select couple trip reports ,accurate in general to what he is likely to actually experience on his own dates?
It really is that simple?


 If you want to make a case that an average FSU woman manipulates her husband through deception or falsehoods more often than a western woman, since her culture is more accepting of such,that seems an entirely different topic,and worthy another thread?

[Boethius]

I never stated men here are routinely manipulated or lied to. 

The culture is very different, and it isn't easy to penetrate.  Why do you think the first thing my husband is asked when he meets someone from the FSU is "Are you from here or there?" They can't detect his accent, which is, to their ear, very mild.  These are countries which, for 70 odd years, were built on a foundation of lies, and I'm not talking about "little white lies".

[Misha]

Reading this thread reminds me of one woman we know from Ukraine. She always strives to present her country as utopian. Once, when we were at a barbecue, she starting going on about how people in Ukraine speak so much better than in Canada. Having spent so much time in Russia, I had to call her on her on it. I asked her whether she thought that a mechanic or a truck driver or the private in the army would be Pushkin reincarnated. I then went on to tell her that she is full of it and that among most men in the working class, and even some in the more educated class, that every third word, and sometimes every second word, they speak will be a swear word. Of course, she had to concede that I was right and she then sullenly changed the topic.

[Misha]

I never stated men here are routinely manipulated or lied to. 

The culture is very different, and it isn't easy to penetrate.  Why do you think the first thing my husband is asked when he meets someone from the FSU is "Are you from here or there?" They can't detect his accent, which is, to their ear, very mild.  These are countries which, for 70 odd years, were built on a foundation of lies, and I'm not talking about "little white lies".

In French, we say: "A beau mentir qui vient de loin." In other words, it is easy to lie when you come from far away and the facts can't be verified. However, sometimes it is not even a case of lying, but I would say self-deception or as a form of self-defence creating an idealized version of the country of origin. I have met many immigrants who create such an idealized image of the FSU that is starkly in contrast with what is really there.

[Boethius]

No, he's not talking about that, Misha. Remember, he is an immigrant from the same society.  He knows the culture he came from.

Of course people lie here, as well.  The "layer" is just a lot larger there.

[Misha]

No, he's not talking about that, Misha. Remember, he is an immigrant from the same society.  He knows the culture he came from.

I know.

Of course people lie here, as well.  The "layer" is just a lot larger there.

Yes, but it is expected that people will be much more direct in challenging people if they think they are not telling the whole truth. In my experience, one Russian is much more likely to challenge another Russian, even if they are from the same culture and the same city, as to whether they are telling the truth. In my experience, Canadians tend to be much more trustworthy, sometimes I would even say gullible....

[Boethius]

Gullible, yes.  But he's talking more about the human condition, who that person is, and how they will try to manipulate you for their own advantage, rather than typical "manigrula" dream like remembrances of the past.

[Misha]

Gullible, yes.  But he's talking more about the human condition, who that person is, and how they will try to manipulate you for their own advantage, rather than typical "manigrula" dream like remembrances of the past.

IMHO, both are two sides of the same coin. You create an idealized version of your country that you present to naive foreigners in order to boost your own status or to fell better about yourself. It is still being done to gain an advantage.


BTW, my wife basically had to tell this woman to shut up on another occasion. She was going on and on telling a group of Canadian acquaintances how they have no history and no culture as they do in Ukraine. My wife had to tell her in Russian to stop as everybody was going to hate her if she continued insulting them....

[The Natural]

BTW, my wife basically had to tell this woman to shut up on another occasion. She was going on and on telling a group of Canadian acquaintances how they have no history and no culture as they do in Ukraine. My wife had to tell her in Russian to stop as everybody was going to hate her if she continued insulting them....

Yes, but didn't she have a point? Isn't the Canadian country relatively new compared the the old world (Europe)?

[Misha]

Yes, but didn't she have a point? Isn't the Canadian country relatively new compared the the old world (Europe)?

Well, The Natural, you are proving my point about the need to somehow believe that a "past" is proof of superiority. However, you are presuming continuity that is highly tenuous. Do you mean the state? Well the Canadian state is older than the contemporary state of Ukraine and older than the Soviet State that preceded it. Sure there are some old churches and fortresses, but how does that help exactly the contemporary culture of the country    IMHO, the people listening to her spiel were polite in not telling her to book the first flight back to her history 

[The Natural]

Oh no, Misha, I did no such thing as presuming "that a "past" is proof of superiority."
 
It is often said that USA is a young nation. Certainly if you do not take into account the indians. As far as I know, the Europeans began to populate this country in the 1600's. Are you telling me that the nation of Canada is way older than that?
 
I've been told that the city of Kerch, for example, is well over 2000 years old. Of course we're not talking of what we now call Ukraine. Who knows, maybe indians lived in Ukraine 5000 years ago   
 
It is no reason to feel inferior just because you don't have a rich white culture spanning a couple thousand years. I'm sure you have many other good qualities 

[Misha]

As far as I know, the Europeans began to populate this country in the 1600's. Are you telling me that the nation of Canada is way older than that?

I am saying that the contemporary state of Ukraine is not the direct descendant of Kievan Rus. Given that we live on the same planet, the country that is Canada is as old as any other country in terms of geography and that the political state that is Canada was shaped by history that is as old as any history that is in Ukraine or even Norway. A country is not somehow "richer" in history because of a few old churches IMHO 
 

I've been told that the city of Kerch, for example, is well over 2000 years old. Of course we're not talking of what we now call Ukraine. Who knows, maybe indians lived in Ukraine 5000 years ago     

Pray tell, what exactly remains in Kerch dating back 2,000 years ago?
 

It is no reason to feel inferior just because you don't have a rich white culture spanning a couple thousand years. I'm sure you have many other good qualities 

Grasping to vestiges of imagined past greatness is always sad  Though the study of history is fascinating, I prefer living in the here and the now 

[The Natural]

I live here and now too, for the most part.
 
But it's nice to learn from history once in a while. Seems the RUS you are referring to, were Scandinavian Vikings from the now called Sweden who went to the (now) FSU. Of course Norwegian Vikings went west and visited your country, even long before you came. Strange isn't it? 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

[Misha]

Of course Norwegian Vikings went west and visited your country, even long before you came. Strange isn't it? 

Your point being? Sure the Vikings visited, but they fled, certainly driven out by the indigenous peoples   

[The Natural]

Your point being? Sure the Vikings visited, but they fled, certainly driven out by the indigenous peoples 

Don't know if they fled, got sick or homesick or whatever. But home they went and left Canada and USA for the Americans

[Misha]

Don't know if they fled, got sick or homesick or whatever. But home they went and left Canada and USA for the Americans

Just so you know, Canadians are not Americans    No more than Norway is Swedish 


But, here is an American song that perhaps captures the spirit of living in the past...

[Boethius]

The Viking settlement in Newfoundland suggests it was there for seven or eight years.  It has also been suggested they made contact with first nations, a tribe long since extinct.  No suggestion the Vikings were driven out.


I think you missed the point about the history, Misha.