Cursing women

[Boethius]

As I understand it there are a few problems with this law:

1.  Soviet historians were never encouraged or allowed to acknowledge US and UK efforts to help in the fight against Germany--specifically the tons of military equipment supplied to Soviet Russia through the port of Murmansk and other ways has never been properly acknowledged.  Initially Russian needed tanks and other munitions so these were supplied mostly by the USA.  For some reason Soviet Russia could not build decent trucks so tons of Studebakers and other trucks were supplied to Russian by USA.  Russian forces rode into Berlin on American trucks eating spam.

Most Soviet forces marched to Berlin by foot, not in vehicles. 

The lend lease programme was given recognition by Soviet historians, including Zhukov's statement on its importance to the Soviet war effort, but I doubt Soviet soldiers were eating spam, as the lend lease ended immediately after Stalingrad. 

The Soviets called US tanks "eggshells".  They took cannons and engines, but relied on the T-34, which was built behind the Urals (based on the blueprints of a Kharkiv engineer, who came up with the idea of moving Kharkiv's tank factory beyond the Urals).

All official documentation from Nuremberg, the Yalta and Potsdam Treaties, and correspondence among the leaders was available to the Soviet public, let alone, historians.

2.  Soviet historians were never allowed to tell the truth about how many Russian forces it took to defeat German forces in particular battles.  To do so would make the Russians look bad as it often took for example 400,000 Soviet forces or more to defeat 100,000 or less of German forces.  Reasons vary as to why but initially it was because the Germans were simply better trained and better equipped, whereas the Russians were newly conscripted into battle and had almost no training whatsoever. 

My husband's response to this is "That's why they won the war."

Nobody in the USSR hid the fact that Sorge reported on the impending Operation Barbarossa, and that Stalin refused to believe this.  Nobody hid the fact that under Stalin, the USSR was not ready for war.  However, as I posted previously, Red Army soldiers were not prepared to fight to defend communism or Stalin.  What turned the effort around was appealing to retired generals such as Zhukov and Shapashnikov, and listening to their advice, to appeal to defending their homeland.  Churches were reopened, two million priests were released from gulags.  But this was all well known to Soviets interested in history.

It wasn't about bad training.  Kill all your officers, and what do you expect the result to be?

3.  Later in the war American and British pilots flew missions from airfields in Ukraine to support the Soviet effort. 

My husband says that only French forces flew from Ukraine.  Stalin did allow US planes on Soviet soil late in the war, which came to fruition in June 1944.

4.  The US and UK bombed Germany extensively during Germany's war in Russia, which crippled Germanys efforts to build armaments and diverted aircraft back to Germany away from the Russian front.  This very important assistance by the UK and USA was never acknowledged by Soviet propaganda historians.

Stalingrad, probably the definitive battle of the Soviet war, was over by the time the US began bombing in Germany.  The UK did bomb throughout, and far more heavily, incidentally, than the US.

5.  The US and UK attacked the Germans in the west, which diverted hundreds of thousands of troops and tanks etc away from the Russian front to try to defend France against invasion.  This enormous effort was never acknowledged by Soviet historians as being so incredibly important in allowing Russia to press forward against the Germans.

Before Ardennes, Churchill and Roosevelt bombarded Stalin with telegrams on heavy casualties suffered by the UK and the US, and begging him to take the heat off their troops.  The Red Army was by then in Germany, and an order came from Stalin to intensify the war effort.  Zhukov was opposed to this, because he knew heavy casualties would occur, and this would have an effect on the country after the war, but the order came from Stalin and was followed.

6.  USA had to also fight Japan in the far east at the same time, which diverted Japan away from planned attacks to the Russian far east, which allowed Stalin to move hundreds of thousands if not more troops away from the far east to the west to battle the Germans at Moscow and Stalingrad, etc.  This assistance by the USA was never acknowledged by Soviet historians.

Where is the evidence of Japan's planned invasion of the USSR?  They were sitting in China at the time.  However, I would suggest the US fight against Japan had more to do with Pearl Harbor than "saving the USSR".

The fact is that Russian history of WWII was already extensively falsified.  Now Russian historians who finally want to tell the whole truth about everything that went on, can be threatened with this new law.  Needless to say journalists and historians in Russia have no incentives to really dig deep and tell the truth about things that really happened, not some glossed up fantasy version.

That is a blatant falsity.  My husband can tell you almost every battle the Soviets fought, has read most of the background to the treaties as well as the treaties themselves, letters from generals and Stalin, transcripts from Nuremberg, etc.  And, he was an ordinary guy, not an historian, as all avenues of higher education were closed to him by the Soviets.  He has read a lot here as well, and watched most of the History Channel's documentaries, to get the British and US perspectives.  He said what he learned, factually, was no different than in the USSR, and believe me, as many FSU individuals from here can attest to, he is not in any manner whatsoever pro Soviet.

[Rubicon]

Mies, I'm jealous you are going to be in So Cal this summer.  I lived there for about 15 years.  It's a great place to visit but you almost have to be wealthy to enjoy living there.  My favorite beach and place to visit was Huntington Beach.  I love Ocean Beach as well as one of my Aunts lives in San Diego.  I don't know when you are going to be there, but if you will be there end of July to August you might want to check out the Nike US Open of Surfing contest, which will be in Huntington Beach from July 30th to August 7th. 

Huntington Beach California Events Calendar News SourceYou +1'd this publicly. Undowww.huntingtonbeachevents.com/calendar.html - CachedSimilar - Block all www.huntingtonbeachevents.com resultsNot helpful? You can block www.huntingtonbeachevents.com results when you're signed in to search.www.huntingtonbeachevents.comSATURDAY, JULY 30, 2011. July 30, 2011 US Open of Surfing Through Aug. 7, 2011 - Huntington Beach's biggest sporting event of the year is held at City Beach ...

[GQBlues]

...It wasn't about bad training.  Kill all your officers, and what do you expect the result to be?...

No dog in this fight though history be damned...
 
The Red Army may not be too well-trained but they sure were a marauding invading force AFTER the purge of  '37.
 
Soon after the Great Purge, including that of the Red Army generals, the Soviet then signs pact with Nazi Germany ('39) which led to the immediate invasion and occupations of Poland, then Finland, then the Baltic States, then Lithuania/Estonia/Latvia...the rest is history.
 
I do agree however think Rubicon made a fairly callous remark by damning the population of Ukraine/Russia.

[SANDRO43]

My husband's response to this is "That's why they won the war."

I think a major reason for Nazi Germany's defeat was Hitler's taking over the overall conduct of war from the OKW and his strategic blunders of being obsessed with too many 'political' objectives (i.e. Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad), which dispersed the Wehrmacht strength on several fronts instead of concentrating it on the resourch-rich southern areas: Ukraine for its agricultural produce and the Caucasus for its much-needed oil. 

Fortunately for all of us .

[Rubicon]

No dog in this fight though history be damned...
 
The Red Army may not be too well-trained but they sure were a marauding invading force AFTER the purge of  '37.
 
Soon after the Great Purge, including that of the Red Army generals, the Soviet then signs pact with Nazi Germany ('39) which led to the immediate invasion and occupations of Poland, then Finland, then the Baltic States, then Lithuania/Estonia/Latvia...the rest is history.
 
I do agree however think Rubicon made a fairly callous remark by damning the population of Ukraine/Russia.

I did not mean for the remark to be callous.  It was not only the population of Ukraine/Russia who suffered in WWII, plenty of other European nations suffered hardships; although I believe the civilians of Ukraine, Belarus and western Russia did suffer the most.  I think that all of the facts of history should be examined and explored, so that history does not repeat itself. 

[GQBlues]

...As for hot surfers - I agree, I have not seen many of them in Venice Beach. But i've seen quite many of people who stunned me, both males and females in Ocean Beach. I like staying in OB because it has the vibe that makes me feel.. well, at home.? I have a favorite cafe-shop there where I like to slowly enjoy my morning coffee, and a tiny mexican eatery where they make the best in the world seafood soup for about $5....

Do have a great time, mies...
 
btw - do you by chance meant Ocean Park or maybe even Ocean Avenue? The only Ocean Beach(es) I know in Kali are in San Diego and San Francisco.

La Sandia? It used to be Broadway cafe on 3rd and Promenade. There's also Lula Cocina on Main St. A good hole-on-the-wall is La Cabana on Rose/Lincoln. Great Menudo! Local hangout is over in Baja Cantina, which is more Marina del Rey on Washington Blvd. Food is pretty bad but people hangout there for their sun, fun and margaritas!
 
Marina del Rey seem to be the preferred locale to many Russian-speaking folks. Walk around the evening in and around the marina channel and the folks walking around will be mostly Russian-speaking folks.

Have a great time mies. Manhattan Beach got the AVP Pro-Beach Volleyball back and will be here on August. Hard bod galore.
 

[Rubicon]

Boethius,

I need more time to reply to your post in proper detail.  Regarding American's flying missions for the Soviets, you husband is not an historian.  I am not either yet, but I am working on it.  American pilots did in fact fly combat missions in the Soviet Union against German assets FOR 39 MONTHS, in American aircraft which were graciously "loaned" to the Soviets.  No big surprise that you were not taught that in school over there.

Tripple 7, unit of US fliers, fighting in Russia during WW2You +1'd this publicly. Undowww.ww2aircraft.net/.../tripple-7-unit-us-fliers-fighting-russia-durin... - CachedSimilar15 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Apr 21, 2008The decades of secrecy surrounding the American Volunteer Group in Russia ... In the intense air action that followed, the Triple 7's pilots ... Of course, they also familiarized themselves with new Soviet fighter aircraft on the base. ... of the Soviet Union medal. But Stalin ordered the Americans' ...

[Rubicon]

Also:

WWII - American Volunteer Group in the USSR - the ' Triple 7's ...You +1'd this publicly. Undowww.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread9153/pg1 - CachedSimilar17 posts - 6 authors - Last post: Oct 18, 2004WWII - American Volunteer Group in the USSR - the ' Triple 7's ', page 1 .... That was when US pilots accidently strafed a Russian convoy mistaking ... It was absorbed into the USAAF during 1942 aqquiring a USAF Fighter ...

[Rubicon]

And finally this:

Operation Frantic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaYou +1'd this publicly. Undoen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic - CachedSimilar - Block all en.wikipedia.org resultsNot helpful? You can block en.wikipedia.org results when you're signed in to search.en.wikipedia.orgPart of Strategic bombing during World War II ... Red Air Force and USAAF ...

[Rubicon]

And after all of that assistance, came this incident which show the typical ungracious attitude of Stalin and the Soviets:

Prologue | Two Americans and the Angry Russian BearYou +1'd this publicly. Undowww.archives.gov › Publications › Prologue Magazine › Spring - CachedTwo US pilots court-martialed for offending the Soviet Union during WWII. ... Italy with the 15th Air Force, would be court-martialed at that command's headquarters. ... and how their actions affected U.S.-Soviet relations in World War II, ... After all, if Hitler's Germany were to be defeated—still an open ...
You visited this page on 7/6/11.►

[GQBlues]

But you see Rubicon?...considering your rhetoric regarding Nazi and the Bush family, are you on the same plane implying FDR, a Democrat, was communist symphatizer?
 
Ironic in how we choose to 'see' the things we do, doesn't it?

[Boethius]

No big surprise that you were not taught that in school over there.

I attended school in Canada, and learned the Commonwealth version of history re WWII. 
 
None of your links contradict the facts in my original post.

ETA - Poles suffered as much as Soviet citizens, though I agree, there was plenty of suffering, all around.
 

[Rubicon]

I attended school in Canada, and learned the Commonwealth version of history re WWII. 
 
None of your links contradict the facts in my original post.

ETA - Poles suffered as much as Soviet citizens, though I agree, there was plenty of suffering, all around.

The only fact I have time to deal with right now is the fact that American pilots were indeed on Soviet soil, flying combat missions in support of the Soviets, prior to June 1944 which certainly does contradict your original post:

In November 1941, the unit began the long journey to the Soviet Union as the squadron flew north from Nevada to Canada, then to Ladd Field near Nome. 
 Their route would later be come well-known as ' The Air Bridge.'  And thousands of U.S. Lend-Lease aircraft would follow the 77th's path. 
 The pilots of the 77th, flew into Siberia. During the first dangerous flight beyond the Bering Strait, two of the aircraft developed mechanical problems  and they crashed in Siberia.  Neither pilot was seen again.
 For the next 3 1/2 years, the Triple 7 fought in every major battle on the Germans' Eastern Front.
 The AVG spent most of their combat time in P-40's and P-39's. But later in the war, the Triple 7's were given surplus USAAF P-47's and P-51's that were ferried up from Italy.

[Boethius]

You stated previously that they were flying out of Ukraine.  That did not occur until after the definitive Soviet war battle, namely, Stalingrad.

[Rubicon]

You stated previously that they were flying out of Ukraine.  That did not occur until after the definitive Soviet war battle, namely, Stalingrad.

You stated that your husband stated that there were no American planes flying on Soviet soil until June 1944.  That's not correct as they were there on Soviet soil since November 1941.  American pilots played key roles to help the Soviets in the battle of Kursk as well as helping to drive the Germans out of Crimea and even in sinking German ships in the Black Sea.  Russian and Ukrainian school children are probably not taught of any American involvement or assistance even today, 20 years after the fall of communism.

[SANDRO43]

This appears to be a better link to the story: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/tripple-7-unit-us-fliers-fighting-russia-during-ww2-12912.html.

Not to belittle the actions of the 777, but it was a single squadron, i.e. a unit with a total of 18-24 planes, compared to the 3 Eagle Squadrons (71, 121, 133) in Britain and the 3 Flying Tiger squadrons in China (the Lafayette Escadrille operated in WWI). As such, its contribution to the Russian war effort was probably marginal.

[Rubicon]

This appears to be a better link to the story: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/tripple-7-unit-us-fliers-fighting-russia-during-ww2-12912.html.

Not to belittle the actions of the 777, but it was a single squadron, i.e. a unit with a total of 18-24 planes, compared to the 3 Eagle Squadrons (71, 121, 133) in Britain and the 3 Flying Tiger squadrons in China (the Lafayette Escadrille operated in WWI). As such, its contribution to the Russian war effort was probably marginal.

Look carefully Sandro, I already posted that link.  Their total contribution was large when you consider that they helped defeat the Germans at Kursk and they helped drive the Germans out of Crimea.  Furthermore Stalin was given THOUSANDS of American combat aircraft.

[Boethius]

You stated that your husband stated that there were no American planes flying on Soviet soil until June 1944. 

No, I stated he said only French forces flew from Ukraine.

I posted that Stalin allowed them on Soviet soil later, however, I should have stated, on Ukrainian soil later - in 1944.  My bad.

Russian and Ukrainian school children are probably not taught of any American involvement or assistance even today, 20 years after the fall of communism.

See above again.  They were taught of the lend lease programme.  They were taught about the invasion of Poland, about the Battle of the Bulge, about the fall of Berlin, about Japanese atrocities in China.  However, can you honestly say that American children are taught of Soviet sacrifices in WWII? 

[Faux Pas]

However, can you honestly say that American children are taught of Soviet sacrifices in WWII? 

I can say no, I wasn't. WWII was quite the history curriculum in my day but, this was during the cold war and the Soviet's contribution and our contribution to the Soviets was not in our books. It wasn't until college I was taught a bit different but, not much

[SANDRO43]

Their total contribution was large when you consider that they helped defeat the Germans at Kursk

They may certainly have helped but, considering the forces fielded by the Red Army at Kursk:

The German delay in launching their offensive gave the Red Army four months in which to turn the salient into one of the most heavily defended areas in history. Two fronts, the Central and Voronezh, manned the defensive lines and the Steppe Front was available as a reserve. The Red Army and thousands of civilians laid altogether 434,667 land mines and built 604 powerful anti-tank barriers. A trench system 5000 km (3000 mi) wide to a depth of 175 km (95 mi) was also constructed. They massed a huge army, including some 1,300,000 men, 3,600 tanks, 20,000 artillery pieces, and 2,792 aircraft. This amounted to 26% of the total manpower of the Red Army, 26% of its mortars and artillery, 35% of its aircraft, and 46% of its tanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
Some 20 airplanes out of a total of almost 3,000 are a negligible asset, no matter how skilfully handled .

Furthermore Stalin was given THOUSANDS of American combat aircraft.

Mostly Bell P-39 Airacobras delivered via the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk.

IIRC, the Lend-Lease matériel that the Soviets appreciated most were the US Dodge trucks .

[The Natural]

I don't know too much about all the details of WWII, but here in Norway the Soviets are remembered for chasing after the Nazis at the end of the world. The Nazis were driven back from the north of Norway where they engaged in burning down everything in an effort to slow down the Soviets coming after them. The Soviets were kind enough to not stay here after the war, though.
 
There were camps of Soviet prisoners here during the war, more than 100.000 Soviets were prisoners here and they had very tough conditions. Forced hard labour, starvation and executions of the weak.
 
So to say that the Soviets didn't suffer or contribute much in defeating the Nazis, is dead wrong.

[mies]

It's not imaginary.  These were the initial actions and burning villages and crops before leaving were ordered by Stalin.  After regrouping and after getting sufficient war materials both from the Russian military industrial complex in the East and from US and UK in Murmansk obviously they did fight back and eventually won.

Then it was a war tactic and following central orders/plan, but not running. You need to pick better wording while expressing your ideas, unless you intentionally are offending a specific nation.

[tim 360]

Usually the country that defeated another writes it's own convenient history, which in time is examined more critically by credible historians and usually the truth is sorted out.
 
Wars are viewed through nationalistic prisims and bias is attached.  It was not until college and after that I learned the true scope of Russia's battles in WWII, although even as a kid I did know the war on the Eastern Front was especially brutal with a great loss of life.  But, here in the US our steady diet of WWII consisted mainly on the great bravery of OUR troops, our boys.
 
As I got to know some Russians/Ukrainians over the years I found that most were taught very little about other countries involvement in the Great Patriotic War and were taught that Russia defeated the Nazi's, and the US defeated Japan and helped out in France.  Even the university well educated ascribed the Nazi defeat to Russia.
 
Gee--not so much different than what we in the US were/are taught, although our media (especially the papers & newsreels of the day) did cover some of what was happening on the Eastern Front, it was light compared to our coverage of our boys and this is to be expected.
 
A balanced view would have to conclude that the Nazi's were defeated by the combined forces of the Allies on both the Eastern and Western Fronts.  If Hitler had not been so impatient to break the Treaty with Stalin and attack Russia the Nazi's would have fared much better, yet if Stalin had not purged the military--Hitler may not have moved so impulsively in attacking Russia.
 
Now who carried more water, I don't really know, but the country that suffered the most was Russia.
 
Stalin did not expect war since in the treaty he and Hitler had carved-up Europe for themselves.  The accounts of what happened when he was awakened and told the news of the Nazi attack are interesting. 

[GQBlues]

I'm sure many, if not most, are aware of the phrase "Russian blood, American steel".
 
It wasn't very long ago I remember watching the celebratory parade on Red square commemorating Victory Day. Along with the usual Russian military, the parade also included soldiers from the US, UK, France, etc...
 
If politicians can't figure out how to stop division amongst nations, maybe its people ought to find a way do it from now on.

[Ranetka]

I did not mean for the remark to be callous.  It was not only the population of Ukraine/Russia who suffered in WWII, plenty of other European nations suffered hardships; although I believe the civilians of Ukraine, Belarus and western Russia did suffer the most.  I think that all of the facts of history should be examined and explored, so that history does not repeat itself.

I do not think you get the difference Rubicon and this is why it is so offensive.
 
Certainly UK bombings were not a minor event and other nations experienced some hardship.
 
However things like Leningrad sieze (sorry about spelling) or say, the fact that a quoter of all Belarussian villages were ceased to exist (normally inhabitants were burnt alive) is just not comparable to what other European nations went through really.
 
And the fact that Soviet troops were buring crops, bridges etc, rail roads, warehouses etc yes, our War was no joke with no place for chivalry, nothing was left for the enemy to use and benefit from.
 
Rubicon, you did not by any chance posted here under the nickname of Ronnie?