Cursing women

[Muzh]

They may certainly have helped but, considering the forces fielded by the Red Army at Kursk:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
Some 20 airplanes out of a total of almost 3,000 are a negligible asset, no matter how skilfully handled .
Mostly Bell P-39 Airacobras delivered via the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk.
IIRC, the Lend-Lease matériel that the Soviets appreciated most were the US Dodge trucks .

Yea, these planes were real dogs and American pilots complained bitterly to higher ups that these planes were vastly inferior to the enemy's aircraft. Guess where they ended up?


Regarding all this talk about what history was taught in which school, I was talking about this to a Russian over dinner today. The guy is president of a think tank based in Kiev. He was talking about the level of schizophrenia in Russia as a result of some teachings, something I believe he called it the double bend. Something akin to teach you history that is not what really happened and everybody knows that. For example; for years the USSR taught students about the Great Patriotic war and how different it was from what was taught by the "imperialist" countries since they claimed it started in 1939. Every good Soviet knew the GPW started in June 1941. Now, in 1939  the Soviets were allies with Germany, therefore there was no war. Germany just happened to partition Poland with the USSR and that infuriated the French and British. This point of omission is what he refers to as the double bend.


FYI


P.S It also applies to other "victors" of war.

[Rubicon]

Ranetka,

No I did not post under the name Ronnie.  I acknowledged that the most deaths of civilians before and during the war occurred in Ukraine, Belarus and western Russia.  As Boethius stated there were also significant loss of life in Poland.  You can read this in the book Bloodlands.  There were also German civilians who were burned alive by allied bombing in Dresden and other cities.  There were 13 million ethnic Germans who were relocated by the Soviets and died as a consequence at the end of the war.  It is not humane to claim that one group suffered especially more than another.  This war effected all people in the end and all people suffer in the end because of it.

[Ranetka]

Ranetka,


  It is not humane to claim that one group suffered especially more than another. 

You do not beleve in Holocoust? Interesting for an American.

[Rubicon]

You do not beleve in Holocoust? Interesting for an American.

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I do believe in the Holocaust. 

[tim 360]

This war effected all people in the end and all people suffer in the end because of it.

I don't know about that statement.  Russia's deathtoll dwarfs all other countries and whether 26 Million or 36 Million they suffered more scorched earth than anyone on the European theatre in WWII.  Russians took an extremely brutal hit with two scorched earth attacks, first by Stalin and then the Nazi's.
 
True, the war impacted all people but not equally.
 
Polands 5 Million dead is also staggering to comprehend, as well as the 6 Million Jews who were exterminated.  But Russia?  They took the biggest hit and Hitler and the Nazi's were especially cruel to the Russians and Ukrainians because they were sub-humans.  There is a difference between war and extermination.  I hope the world never again has world war, but some lessons are hard to learn.
 
 

[Ranetka]

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I do believe in the Holocaust.

It contradicts your previous statement. You said that suggesting that one ethnic group suffered more than others (which Holocaust is) is inhumane.

[GQBlues]

I am inclined to believe that America's entry to WWII came on a hot August summer when the Atlantic Charter came to fruition. That's when Churchill and Roosevelt shook hands amidst the 8-points directive. The world was a very big place then and far too wide open for the major players eager to amass the bigger loot in the ol' land grabbing days or yore.

[Rubicon]

It contradicts your previous statement. You said that suggesting that one ethnic group suffered more than others (which Holocaust is) is inhumane.

I don't agree with you that it contradicts.  You are entitled to your opinion. 

[Ranetka]

Regarding all this talk about what history was taught in which school, I was talking about this to a Russian over dinner today. The guy is president of a think tank based in Kiev. He was talking about the level of schizophrenia in Russia as a result of some teachings, something I believe he called it the double bend. Something akin to teach you history that is not what really happened and everybody knows that. For example; for years the USSR taught students about the Great Patriotic war and how different it was from what was taught by the "imperialist" countries since they claimed it started in 1939. Every good Soviet knew the GPW started in June 1941. Now, in 1939  the Soviets were allies with Germany, therefore there was no war. Germany just happened to partition Poland with the USSR and that infuriated the French and British. This point of omission is what he refers to as the double bend.


FYI

 
Second world war started 1 sept 1939, Great Patriotic War started 22 june 1941. That's what I was taught and see no contradiction.

P.S It also applies to other "victors" of war.

[Rubicon]

Isn't it amazing, huh? I know what you say is true. Now isn't it more amazing that these neighbors will rally around this victim and try to collect the money she was stolen,and most probably don't need it but, when it comes to a starving orphan the majority would say "not my tax money."


I know, I know it's not the same.

It is much better that people rely on themselves, their friends family and neighbors, their church; than relying on the government.

[Daveman]

Let's see... from Wone cursing at men to cursing, to the existence of swear words, to prevarications, to character, to lineage and history, to popcorn, potatoes, tomatoes and tobacco, to Godwin's inevitable Nazis, to WWII and revisionist history, to what some would have done, to what some could have done, to what some did, to who sacrificed more, to who lost more, to split the thread or not.... Yo mayo!








Nahhhhhhh, we'll let this fookin' thread receive the Spock Split Fingers Award!  Live long and prosper, just as you are!


 

[Rubicon]

Let's see... from Wone cursing at men to cursing, to the existence of swear words, to prevarications, to character, to lineage and history, to popcorn, potatoes, tomatoes and tobacco, to Godwin's inevitable Nazis, to WWII and revisionist history, to what some would have done, to what some could have done, to what some did, to who sacrificed more, to who lost more, to split the thread or not.... Yo mayo!








Nahhhhhhh, we'll let this fookin' thread receive the Spock Split Fingers Award!  Live long and prosper, just as you are!


 

I was thinking the same thing.  The OP has long since decided to leave this loony bunch behind!!   

[Gator]

 Total Military Deaths  in World War II as Percentage of 1939 Population   
 
                                   (excludes civilians)
 
Germany                      7.9%
Soviet Union        5.2 - 6.4%
Hungary                      3.3%
Japan                          3.0%
Yugoslavia                   2.9%
Finland                        2.6%
United Kingdom           0.8%
Poland                         0.7%
Italy                             0.7%
Australia                      0.6%
France                         0.5%
United States               0.3%

Military figures include battle deaths (KIA) and personnel missing in action (MIA), as well as fatalities due to accidents, disease and deaths of prisoners of war in captivity.

[Rubicon]

This appears to be a better link to the story: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/tripple-7-unit-us-fliers-fighting-russia-during-ww2-12912.html.

Not to belittle the actions of the 777, but it was a single squadron, i.e. a unit with a total of 18-24 planes, compared to the 3 Eagle Squadrons (71, 121, 133) in Britain and the 3 Flying Tiger squadrons in China (the Lafayette Escadrille operated in WWI). As such, its contribution to the Russian war effort was probably marginal.

AVG 777 record in Soviet Union during WWII:

The combat record of the Triple 7's is very impressive, indeed. In 39 months
 of combat, pilots of the 77th racked up 293 confirmed air combat kills, while destroying many hundreds of German tanks and vehicles.
 The brutal combat over the vast Russian and Ukrainian landscape had taken its toll on the steady, courageous AVG . . roughly ONE-THIRD of its fighter pilots didn't make it back home.

[Gator]

Has anyone mentioned how the Soviet Union inhibited the Doolittle Raid (including interning one crew that could not make it to China)?

[tim 360]

In WWI only about 5% of deaths were to civilians.
 
In WWII over 60% of deaths were to wars for the civilians.
 
Very different war for the non-combatants.
 
  Hey Mod Dave,  when does this thread switch over to the Casey Anthony trial?

[Rubicon]

Yea, these planes were real dogs and American pilots complained bitterly to higher ups that these planes were vastly inferior to the enemy's aircraft. Guess where they ended up?

Those were not the only planes which were sent, Muzh.

[Rubicon]

Those were not the only planes which were sent, Muzh.

[GQBlues]

Let's see... from Wone cursing at men to cursing, to the existence of swear words, to prevarications, to character, to lineage and history, to popcorn, potatoes, tomatoes and tobacco, to Godwin's inevitable Nazis, to WWII and revisionist history, to what some would have done, to what some could have done, to what some did, to who sacrificed more, to who lost more, to split the thread or not.... Yo mayo!

Yup...it's enough to make a good woman curse, doesn't it? 

[Rubicon]

Most Soviet forces marched to Berlin by foot, not in vehicles. 

The lend lease programme was given recognition by Soviet historians, including Zhukov's statement on its importance to the Soviet war effort, but I doubt Soviet soldiers were eating spam, as the lend lease ended immediately after Stalingrad. 

The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).^[14]

.....their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2½ ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminium, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.^[15]

[mies]

Rubicon, you are arguing about sensitive topic, of which you know from reading books, and we know from first-hand participants and observers: our grandparents and out greatgrandparents. My grandparents were born in 1920s, they were in their late teens during WWII, they lived at occupied territories. I conversed many times about the WWII with my 2 greatgrandparents who lived to the age of about 100 years. They saw several wars, and my greatgranddad fought in 3 wars. As a kid i was a member of kids organization that was helping war veterans, - bringing them groceries, helping in household, spending time with lonely people who did not have anyone left, talking to them. There were several people in our town who were "Heroes of the Soviet Union" - the highest possible distinction in the USSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_the_Soviet_Union). They were telling us stories about their war. And they were honest, and were telling the truth - about losses and victories, about losing friends and saving lives, about great hardships and the happiness of freeing their motherland. You talk about American chivalry and mention nothing about Soviet "partisan front." You are calling feeble scared and running from Germans the people whom you never met, while they are our family, they are my nation. And you are trying to convince me that you know how it was better than those people who honestly shared with me their own experience? just because you read books? 
I am not discussing numbers with you, I am talking about the character of my nation. No matter how the history was twisted, and will be twisted in future, you cannot convince that people did certain thing the people who have not done it. It happened to them, I suppose they know better.
 

[Rubicon]

 

The Soviets called US tanks "eggshells".  They took cannons and engines, but relied on the T-34, which was built behind the Urals (based on the blueprints of a Kharkiv engineer, who came up with the idea of moving Kharkiv's tank factory beyond the Urals).

Whether or not the American tanks initially had the best armor is beside the point.  They were incredibly agile and the Soviets were supplied with large amounts of amunitions for these tanks which they lacked.  The Germans were in fact impressed by the American tanks as they lost many of their own tanks to the US ones.  Nitpicking over this or that is just ridiculous in time of war.  The best soldiers and the best armies make due with what they have and win. 

How many British SAS troops do you think it took to defeat a much higher number of Argentine troops during the Falkland Islands war??

The Soviet Union's nickname for the M4 medium tank was Emcha because the open-topped figure 4 resembled the Cyrillic letter che or cha (Ч ). The (diesel engined M4A2) "emchas" used by the Red Army were considered to be much less prone to burn and explode than Russian tanks ^[11]
A total of 4,102 M4A2 medium tanks were sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease. Of these 2,007 were equipped with the 75 mm gun, and 2,095 carried the 76 mm gun. The total number of Sherman tanks sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease represented 18.6 percent of all Lend-Lease Shermans.^[12]
 [edit] Combat performance    The M4 had a high profile compared to the Cromwell, which supplemented it in British service.   The best anti-tank gun on a World War II combat Sherman was the British QF 17 pounder (76.2 mm) gun, a very high-velocity weapon firing APDS shells capable of defeating the heavier German tanks. The 17 pounder had already shown its value in 1943, in Africa as a towed anti-tank gun. It proved an effective weapon against German AFVs. With the APDS developed for the 17 pounder, the Firefly's performance was increased again. Although the 17-pounder was an excellent anti-armor weapon, initially the HE shell provided was weak, making it a poor general-purpose tank gun. However, the HE shell problem was later resolved.

[Boethius]

Point is, they weren't used.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon, you are arguing about sensitive topic, of which you know from reading books, and we know from first-hand participants and observers: our grandparents and out greatgrandparents. My grandparents were born in 1920s, they were in their late teens during WWII, they lived at occupied territories. I conversed many times about the WWII with my 2 greatgrandparents who lived to the age of about 100 years. They saw several wars, and my greatgranddad fought in 3 wars. As a kid i was a member of kids organization that was helping war veterans, - bringing them groceries, helping in household, spending time with lonely people who did not have anyone left, talking to them. There were several people in our town who were "Heroes of the Soviet Union" - the highest possible award in the USSR. They were telling us stories about their war. And they were honest, and were telling the truth - about losses and victories, about losing friends and saving lives, about great hardships and the happiness of freeing their motherland. You talk about American chivalry and mention nothing about Soviet "partisan front." You are calling feeble scared and running from Germans the people whom you never met, while they are our family, they are my nation. And you are trying to convince me that you know how it was better than those people who honestly shared with me their own experience? just because you read books? 
I am not discussing numbers with you, I am talking about the character of my nation. No matter how the history was twisted, and will be twisted in future, you cannot convince that people did certain thing the people who have not done it. It happened to them, I suppose they know better.

Let's not get into a contest.  My American uncles served in World War II and I have ethnic German civilian relatives who were murdered, tortured, relocated and starved by the Red Army.

[Rubicon]

Point is, they weren't used.

Yes they were, and when I have more time I will prove it to you.  The tanks were used sometimes complete, and other times their engines and turrets and munitions were used.  The Soviets initially had a great lack for munitions and other supplies and these were supplied to them by Americans and British.