Cursing women

[Ranetka]

Let's not get into a contest.  My American uncles served in World War II and I have ethnic German civilian relatives who were murdered, tortured, relocated and starved by the Red Army.

Let's not forget "the contest" was started by you when you implied US would have done much better job etc.
 
All male members of my family of appropriate age (18-55 ?) served in WW2. Some came back.

[mies]

Let's not get into a contest.  My American uncles served in World War II and I have ethnic German civilian relatives who were murdered, tortured, relocated and starved by the Red Army.

First of all, of course I feel sorry for losses in your family. Death, especially brutal one, and even more so - of innocent people, - is always tragic.
I am not saying that the Red Army was not killing people, I am not saying it wasn't killing Germans. It was war, Germany started it. Whenever the war is going - civilians always suffer. I do not have any hard feelings for Germans as a nation, i do not have any hard feelings for Russians as a nation, I do not have hard feelings for any nation. I am referring to your first post on the War topic, and i don't see the connection between sufferings of your family and the conclusion that if Ukrainians were Americans they would have fought for their land.

As a side remark: your ethnic German civilian relatives suffered as a result of bad planning of their country leader(s). Had he not started the war - I doubt the Red Army would have ever plundered Germany. War is a bad thing because it brings out of people their best and their worst.

[Boethius]

The tanks proved to be not field worthy.  It was by using them in battle that the Soviets learned this, and why they made building T-34's a priority.

As I posted previously, they were stripped.

I'm not really sure what your point is.  That the Soviets needed Allied help to win the war?   We can't know that, just as we can't know if the Soviets were needed for the remaining Allies to win.  That they don't recognize Allied help?  As I noted, this also is not true. 

You started with a position that Soviet historians did not tell the truth.  That is not true, and trust me, I am not one to "side" with anything from the USSR.  But your assertion is false.  Did Soviet historians focus on war losses?  On the disproportionate deaths they faced?  Absolutely.  The Soviet government also, ideologically, used the war not only to excuse the lack of economic progress after WWII (rather than acknowledging the fact that it was their poor economic planning that was responsible) and played the victory of communism over fascism for ideological purposes.  But neither of those negate the fact that this victory was one that touched almost every Ukrainian and Belarussian family personally, as well as many millions of Russians.

When German POW's were repatriated after WWII (and I know not all of them were), Kyianins, who were still living under rations threw bread to them.

[Rubicon]

The tanks proved to be not field worthy.  It was by using them in battle that the Soviets learned this, and why they made building T-34's a priority.

As I posted previously, they were stripped.

I'm not really sure what your point is.  That the Soviets needed Allied help to win the war?   We can't know that, just as we can't know if the Soviets were needed for the remaining Allies to win.  That they don't recognize Allied help?  As I noted, this also is not true. 

You started with a position that Soviet historians did not tell the truth.  That is not true, and trust me, I am not one to "side" with anything from the USSR.  But your assertion is false.  Did Soviet historians focus on war losses?  On the disproportionate deaths they faced?  Absolutely.  The Soviet government also, ideologically, used the war not only to excuse the lack of economic progress after WWII (rather than acknowledging the fact that it was their poor economic planning that was responsible) and played the victory of communism over fascism for ideological purposes.  But neither of those negate the fact that this victory was one that touched almost every Ukrainian and Belarussian family personally, as well as many millions of Russians.

When German POW's were repatriated after WWII (and I know not all of them were), Kyianins, who were still living under rations threw bread to them.

Very good points.  I will only respond in a PM when I am able to.

[Ranetka]

Another question,
 
did they teach you at school that 100 000+ Japanese Americans were relocated/put into concentration camps during WW2?  Not sure how many German Americans.

[Boethius]

When my husband lived in then Leningrad, he was visiting a friend.  The friend's Grandmother made them tea with bread and butter.

After the dishes were cleared, the Grandmother scooped the crumbs in the kitchen (not a table, if you've seen the old Soviet style kitchens, more a "shelf", covered with a cloth) into her hands and popped them in her mouth.  My husband was kind of taken aback, and she noticed this.  She told him she could never waste a crumb of bread during her life, as she had survived the siege of Leningrad, had stepped over neighbours, in a weakened state, to get home, and lost her mother and sister to starvation.  My MIL, a child during the war, would never throw out bread.  Stale bread was either dried or fed to birds.

The above stories are very common, as any FSUW posting here can likely attest. 

How many Americans of similar age have the same attitude?

[Daveman]

Another question,
 
did they teach you at school that 100 000+ Japanese Americans were relocated/put into concentration camps during WW2?  Not sure how many German Americans.

Yes they were, but it was soon discovered they suffered from Attention Deficit Disorder ... ba dump DING (rim shot) so the relocation process was ultimately unsuccessful... 

[Rubicon]

Another question,
 
did they teach you at school that 100 000+ Japanese Americans were relocated/put into concentration camps during WW2?  Not sure how many German Americans.

Yes they did.  It was a different era then and considered necessary. 

[Ranetka]

I am with Boe.
 
Also stories like whole village from babies to elderly locked in the church or school and then set alive on fire? They did this to my people, how can anyone compare it to lend lease or even in a death in a battle?

[Ranetka]

Yes they did.  It was a different era then and considered necessary.

Thank you. Same as relocation of Chechens or Germans in the USSR.

[Rubicon]

I am with Boe.
 
Also stories like whole village from babies to elderly locked in the church or school and then set alive on fire? They did this to my people, how can anyone compare it to lend lease or even in a death in a battle?

Nobody was comparing the two entirely different types of situations.  You are making a GIGANTIC leap to imply that this was done in any way shape or form.

[Rubicon]

Thank you. Same as relocation of Chechens or Germans in the USSR.

Not even remotely the same.  The Japanese were given food, shelter and security.  The Germans were often tortured, murdered and mutilated on the spot, and they were CIVILIANS.  Those who were relocated were starved, had little to no shelter and had to perform back breaking labor.  As I stated before, it is not proper or humane to favor one group of civilians who suffer as a result of war to being improperly treated; and then in the next sentence to say too bad, they deserved it when talking about the next group.  Civilians for the most part have very little to do with what their military and political leaders do.

[Rubicon]

The tanks proved to be not field worthy.  It was by using them in battle that the Soviets learned this, and why they made building T-34's a priority.

As I posted previously, they were stripped.

I'm not really sure what your point is.  That the Soviets needed Allied help to win the war?   We can't know that, just as we can't know if the Soviets were needed for the remaining Allies to win.  That they don't recognize Allied help?  As I noted, this also is not true. 

You started with a position that Soviet historians did not tell the truth.  That is not true, and trust me, I am not one to "side" with anything from the USSR.  But your assertion is false.  Did Soviet historians focus on war losses?  On the disproportionate deaths they faced?  Absolutely.  The Soviet government also, ideologically, used the war not only to excuse the lack of economic progress after WWII (rather than acknowledging the fact that it was their poor economic planning that was responsible) and played the victory of communism over fascism for ideological purposes.  But neither of those negate the fact that this victory was one that touched almost every Ukrainian and Belarussian family personally, as well as many millions of Russians.

When German POW's were repatriated after WWII (and I know not all of them were), Kyianins, who were still living under rations threw bread to them.

The fact that you are still arguing with me that American tanks were not field worthy actually proves my point to you that Soviet historians did in fact falsify some of what really happened.

The American tanks were very mobile and agile and were adept at destroying the better fortified German tanks.  The further proof is also the fact that in later years the American tanks beat the Soviet tanks in battles:

"The M4A2 Shermans was not as brilliant a design as the T-34, but in post-war encounters between them in Korea and the Middle East, the US tank was invariably the victor despite the superiority of the T-34 ON PAPER."

[Boethius]

Actually, most of that information comes from a German historian.

This is not a particular field of interest of mine, but my son is fascinated with such issues - weapons, history of war and particular battles - and has been since he was old enough to read.  So, we have a fairly extensive library.  One of his first books, which he received aged five, was this one -

http://www.amazon.com/Eyewitness-World-War-II-Books/dp/0789462982/ref=cm_lmf_img_16/180-5610769-0244345

He has graduated to "grown up" books.    Other than Robert Cormier, he pretty much reads nothing but non fiction.

[Rubicon]

They may certainly have helped but, considering the forces fielded by the Red Army at Kursk:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
Some 20 airplanes out of a total of almost 3,000 are a negligible asset, no matter how skilfully handled .
Mostly Bell P-39 Airacobras delivered via the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk.

IIRC, the Lend-Lease matériel that the Soviets appreciated most were the US Dodge trucks .

Yes Sandro, the Soviets were given OVER 500,000 trucks total, mostly Dodge and Studebaker, which they did in fact take to Berlin, as you can see many photos of Katushtka rockets mounted on the back of Studebaker or Dodge trucks. 

Also, Bell delivered over 2,000 P-63 Kingcobra's, which the Soviets liked very much as they were very rugged and stood up to the harsh conditions there.

[Rubicon]

Yes Sandro, the Soviets were given OVER 500,000 trucks total, mostly Dodge and Studebaker, which they did in fact take to Berlin, as you can see many photos of Katushtka rockets mounted on the back of Studebaker or Dodge trucks. 

Also, Bell delivered over 2,000 P-63 Kingcobra's, which the Soviets liked very much as they were very rugged and stood up to the harsh conditions there.

a3607945‑8‑P63‑kingcobra.jpg

[mies]

I just created a new controversial topic: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13707.msg272021#msg272021

[Ranetka]

Not even remotely the same.  The Japanese were given food, shelter and security.  The Germans were often tortured, murdered and mutilated on the spot, and they were CIVILIANS.  Those who were relocated were starved, had little to no shelter and had to perform back breaking labor.  As I stated before, it is not proper or humane to favor one group of civilians who suffer as a result of war to being improperly treated; and then in the next sentence to say too bad, they deserved it when talking about the next group.  Civilians for the most part have very little to do with what their military and political leaders do.

I meant American civilian citizens of Japanese descent.

[Ranetka]

Nobody was comparing the two entirely different types of situations.  You are making a GIGANTIC leap to imply that this was done in any way shape or form.

OK, I am glad that you do not. Honestly.
 
It was my impression on this thread that you did just that. I am glad that you do not.