If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[Rubicon]

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum, Rubicon. I currently reside in the US and I'm from Ukraine originally.
I couldn't care less if Marina was a nun or a whore, and if Roman was a bum or an influential politician. The judge will define the components of crime based on the evidence.

Very well put about Marina and Roman.  These things should not matter, only the evidence should matter.  Unfortunately many suspect that Romans father might bribe the judge and that Roman will be released without doing any jail time whatsoever.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon,

I found Gator's opinion quite ok.  As you see below, his statement is general in nature, or at least I take it that way.  Of course he does not know the woman personally, nor does she post here or is a prospective mate or wife of a Member here.  Maybe you do thus feel insulted?

You seem like a 'save the world' type, but on one hand you criticize Gator for his comments, on the other make disparaging comments directly addressed Sarah Palin's qualifications.  I make this remark not that I disagree with your remarks about Sarah, but instead to remind you that this is an internet forum and not a discussion where everyone is sitting at the same table.  Maybe you consider your remarks about Sarah more of  a public figure thing, but in light of the err.. entertaining pictures that were linked to upthread, if they truly depict her, they put this woman squat in the middle of the public realm... LOL

I agree with Gator that "There are low class people in both genders.", so what's the big deal?

Lighten up a bit.

His comments rub me the wrong way entirely because she was dragged by the hair and beaten unconscious after turning down his advances.  If it were so simple that he did not really mean to say the woman was "low class" than why did he not come out and say so??  Instead he gives a long dissertation that because the woman tried to defend herself that shows she must be a bar room brawler low class type of gal, when in reality she had no choice but to try to defend herself with what little means she had.  He then waxes poetically about how the women HE dates are truly high class types and implies very explicitly that Marina is not.  It really is very insulting to her as she was violently assaulted. 

I cannot even begin to comprehend your apples to oranges comparison of what I said about Sarah Palin.  We have not just witnessed a video of Sarah Palin being harassed by a drunken party boy politician (who thinks he has immunity because his MP father has beaten up and/or threatened to beat up police men who get in his way) and then dragged by the hair and pummeled unconscious.  How do you think that the two situations are even vaguely similar or open to comparison??

[SANDRO43]

there IS a Lion of the coat of arms for Galicia!!

The charge is a lion rampant  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_(heraldry)). They must drink a lot of Löwenbräu there .

[The Natural]

Sandro43, you ought to change your nick to Factfinder43 

[BC]

His comments rub me the wrong way entirely because she was dragged by the hair and beaten unconscious after turning down his advances.  If it were so simple that he did not really mean to say the woman was "low class" than why did he not come out and say so??  Instead he gives a long dissertation that because the woman tried to defend herself that shows she must be a bar room brawler low class type of gal, when in reality she had no choice but to try to defend herself with what little means she had.  He then waxes poetically about how the women HE dates are truly high class types and implies very explicitly that Marina is not.  It really is very insulting to her as she was violently assaulted.

Ahh.. See the bold part - so now we get to the meat of the matter... you're taking remarks on an forum personally.  Explains quite a bit regarding your sensitivity.  A rule of thumb I use is not to take anything that is posted personally - I can only suggest that you also try.

I was the first who posted about the curious fact she fondled that bottle for a bit (5 seconds or so) which indicated to me that this may not have been her first experience in such a situation and her action seemed premeditated.  Gator simply confirmed that he noted the same and the rest of his statement is along the line of 'If the shoe fits', or 'that would fit the bill'.. nothing more, nothing less as I read it.

One response I have seen used in the past here is "Want some cheese with your whine?" or "Grow a skin" among others.  They do seem to fit.

I cannot even begin to comprehend your apples to oranges comparison of what I said about Sarah Palin.  We have not just witnessed a video of Sarah Palin being harassed by a drunken party boy politician (who thinks he has immunity because his MP father has beaten up and/or threatened to beat up police men who get in his way) and then dragged by the hair and pummeled unconscious.  How do you think that the two situations are even vaguely similar or open to comparison??

Simple.. you state that Gators remark was disparaging or otherwise offensive to a woman.  A Palin supporter could well take offense to your remarks in similar fashion.  No parallel?  One can only disparage a woman when she's beaten and dragged by the hair?

Manny, I do get worked up sometimes.  I prefer to think that life is no fun if you cannot occasionally stir the pot.

Yeah.. as you have stated before.. you're just stirring the pot.  Can be cute for a while but eventually gets weary.  You've managed to whip up a little froth so just be happy with that and move on to slicing and dicing instead.  A good soup is simmered and slowly stirred.

[Gator]

 

Those are actually very good and accurate lessons for your boys.  One must be very careful to know when or when not to engage.  It's absolutely not worth it to get involved in the affairs of criminal types. 

Exactly, so why did you have the opposite opinion (spontaneous bravado) earlier in this thread?
 

Like you I speak much softer in public but can easily get carried away on net.

 
What's the difference?
 

I am trying very hard to make progress towards a softer kinder gentler Rubicon.  It's not easy because as Daveman so properly noted I sometimes wear my heart on my sleeve. 

If you are looking for pointers, I suggest:  1) take a breath before responding, 2) recognize that you are an intuitive thinker (nothing wrong with that as some famous people are the same), 3) consider both sides of an issue before responding,  and 4) assume that you do not know everything about anything.
 

I do think however I have made a bit of progress towards the goal.

Please prove I am wrong when I say "I will not hold my breath."

[Gator]

Unfortunately many suspect that Romans father might bribe the judge and that Roman will be released without doing any jail time whatsoever.

In Ukraine the prosecutor also receives part of the bribe.

[JohnDearGreen]

The girl has shown lots of class here (for those who are 18 and older)    : 
<link omitted>

Which girl are you referring to?  Maria Korshunov or model Mila I?  It is strange that the same photos in the link you listed can be found when searching photos for model Mila I by photographer Goncharov.   

[ECOCKS]

As others stated, it makes no difference if she's a crack ho or Princess Kate, no woman should be dragged around by her hair in public. The body language and news reports paint the grim, real picture as to what a woman's place is in the FSU.

My wife's comment was that she has seen this all her life and it is interesting only if it (the event) brings about change. She feels the man will get a token fine at worst. Based upon their history that's my guess as well.

Some guy was murdered over in Lviv a few years ago for singing folk songs in Ukrainian. The main assailant (who led a group beating him to death at a sidewalk cafe) was picked up tryign to leave the country and, if I remember correctly was fined $35 or $55 equivalent with no jail time. The singer was fairly well known in Ukraine and his wife even served as Minister of Culture a few years later. Oh, did I mention the father of the assailant was a very high nilitsia officer?

This is good reading for trying to understand the cultural background you're walking into and even helping you develop criteria for your red flags and sincerity alerts.

[BC]

As others stated, it makes no difference if she's a crack ho or Princess Kate, no woman should be dragged around by her hair in public.

Rethink?  A simple period would do quite fine in my book.

[Boethius]

The prosecutor in the region, and his deputy, apparently are the ones who suggested Roman flee.  The feds have taken over prosecution because of this.

Had this not hit youtube and gone international, the result would have been very different.

[ECOCKS]

I agree B.

The scary part of this is not the outcome of this individual incident, horrific as it is, but the nonchalance of the bystanders and collusion of "authorities" in ignoring/covering it up.

Certainly we hope the young lady gets "justice" but as long as Ukraine continues along this path who can take them seriously? The story here is criminal but the larger picture is the lip-service only acceptance of all aspects of the rule of law including property rights, contracts, privatization, government transparency, selective enforcement of regulations, the list goes on and on.

[Rubicon]

Which girl are you referring to?  Maria Korshunov or model Mila I?  It is strange that the same photos in the link you listed can be found when searching photos for model Mila I by photographer Goncharov.

1.  We don't really know much about Yuri except that he/she posted the link to X-rated photos very shortly after arriving here.  It's not unreasonable to think that Yuri could have been hired by Roman's team to smear the reputation of the woman on any and all blogs talking about this situation.

2.  The young woman could be a legitimate model who only does normal modeling and not any nude modeling at all, but someone in Ukraine stole her face shots and photo shopped them onto the body of a hooker.

[Rubicon]

The prosecutor in the region, and his deputy, apparently are the ones who suggested Roman flee.  The feds have taken over prosecution because of this.

Had this not hit youtube and gone international, the result would have been very different.

Sad about the local prosecutor being willing to commit such an act.  But are we now to believe that the Federal prosecutor could not be "influenced" in some way by the father who is an MP??  I also suspect that Roman is going to attempt to buy the woman's silence by paying her off.  That may be the only type of justice she is able to receive out of this situation.

[Boethius]

1.  We don't really know much about Yuri except that he/she posted the link to X-rated photos very shortly after arriving here.  It's not unreasonable to think that Yuri could have been hired by Roman's team to smear the reputation of the woman on any and all blogs talking about this situation.

Yuri registered over 3 months ago, and has lurked here since before this scandal.  Why is it that any time a new poster appears, there is some sort of conspiracy?  This forum comes up as a top search, which is how most posters end up here.

2.  The young woman could be a legitimate model who only does normal modeling and not any nude modeling at all, but someone in Ukraine stole her face shots and photo shopped them onto the body of a hooker.

The photos, and her name, were posted on a forum some months before the scandal, though the date could have been manipulated.  I suspect "Yuri" found them by googling the girl's name.

[GQBlues]

His comments rub me the wrong way entirely because she was dragged by the hair and beaten unconscious after turning down his advances.  If it were so simple that he did not really mean to say the woman was "low class" than why did he not come out and say so??  Instead he gives a long dissertation that because the woman tried to defend herself that shows she must be a bar room brawler low class type of gal, when in reality she had no choice but to try to defend herself with what little means she had.  He then waxes poetically about how the women HE dates are truly high class types and implies very explicitly that Marina is not.  It really is very insulting to her as she was violently assaulted....

Violence against women is never right. Unfortunately, this happens everywhere and anywhere...
 
Rubicon, I find it a bit odd that you found it a bit distasteful that you perceived what Gator said about the gal in the video as 'damning', but if you carefully took your statement in this thread about how, because of the video, you're extracting yourself from courting/marrying (association with?) a Ukrainian/Russian woman since you now feel the entire female population of Ukraine (and Russia) is likely to have tainted intentions for their quest to immigrate. So, aren't you in fact holding this woman's experience not only against her but the country's entire female population because somehow they can no longer be trusted?  You're not only prepared to 'damned' this woman, you're prepared to damn the country's entire female population. (??) Isn't that akin to saying you're somehow 'above' these women now?
 
I was about to suggest that maybe you should consider Lebanese women (Man, they're gorgeous! and yes, many Christian Lebanese) since you like the 'olive' complexion, but then I thought you'll likely distrust their intentions too considering what they do to women in that neck of the woods.

[ECOCKS]

Rethink?  A simple period would do quite fine in my book.

No rethink necessary. We're discussing a specific incident so context should be understood. If it was a private incident, then it's up to the woman to take steps, be they defensive, relocating/disassociating, whatever. There have been a couple of times over the years when I've heard screaming from inside apartments before and decided to call the police. Of course, I couldn't say whether hair was involved or not....

[Rubicon]

Violence against women is never right. Unfortunately, this happens everywhere and anywhere...
 
Rubicon, I find it a bit odd that you found it a bit distasteful that you perceived what Gator said about the gal in the video as 'damning', but if you carefully took your statement in this thread about how, because of the video, you're extracting yourself from courting/marrying (association with?) a Ukrainian/Russian woman since you now feel the entire female population of Ukraine (and Russia) is likely to have tainted intentions for their quest to immigrate. So, aren't you in fact holding this woman's experience not only against her but the country's entire female population because somehow they can no longer be trusted?  You're not only prepared to 'damned' this woman, you're prepared to damn the country's entire female population. (??) Isn't that akin to saying you're somehow 'above' these women now?
 
I was about to suggest that maybe you should consider Lebanese women (Man, they're gorgeous! and yes, many Christian Lebanese) since you like the 'olive' complexion, but then I thought you'll likely distrust their intentions too considering what they do to women in that neck of the woods.

Interesting post GQ.  You can't take me too literally as I'm a true Gemini and often look at stuff from one entirely different angle and then look at it again from another angle.  My opinions and my conclusions are not always exactly what I write as my writing is sometimes just myself thinking aloud.  My real and final conclusions are usually somewhere near the middle of these opposing viewpoints.

I consider that this situation of violence is very distinct from the situation of women who are pro-daters and/or scammers.  Even though there are more then enough women there with bad intentions I'm also sure that there are some true gems waiting to be plucked off the top of the tree by a guy with the moxie and stamina to make it through the maze before getting to the orchard.  Yes it's true that the society habbits there which are long ingrained are very frustrating to a westerner and probably even more frustrating to those who do have honor yet must live there.  My frustrations are more with the system of governance and endemic lawlessness over there then with the women.  The system gives me pause and makes me seriously think, why would a sane man proceed into this madness??  I am like a car broken down on the freeway now that needs to be towed to a repair shop and wait for special parts before it can be repaired and proceed.  Since the budget for the vacation has been spoiled by the car repairs the traveler is now considering alternate destinations, even those close by.

[Jumper]

Not defending Romans actions in anyway whatsoever,
 they are uncalled for always ,and i hope the courts agree he needs some jail time to adjust his 'tude.


but some random thoughts from when i first viewed the vid.

1.initially  the *big guy* was seated with the three women.

he gets up slightly animated but nothing crazy and *appears* to have something previously spilled or splashed on his shirt , pretty high up for doing so yourself ..

2. roman comes over picks up some drink on the table , and intentionally splashes it a couple of time on the womans dress.
seems something prior  to the vid likely provoked it ,, no telling what.


3. things escalates from there,,
she does hold the bottle a bit before he strikes her,,, and she retaliates ,
we cant hear what either party is saying.

4.no trained body guards anywhere..


Certainly seems a lot more going on  to me.

in fact it seems perhaps a scuffle between known persons ,
and not strangers ,or at least acquainted prior to the vid.
the big guy is sitting with them,and speaking  why dos he leave ?


This certainly doesn't justify the actions taken by the kid,

but it did strike me as a  *throwing drinks over harsh words dispute, gone way too far* happens most every weekend somewhere in the west too.

[Rubicon]

The charge is a lion rampant  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_(heraldry)). They must drink a lot of Löwenbräu there .

Eine große Löwenbräu Hefe Weizen mit frischen Zitronenscheibe bitte, halten Sie die Wüterich!!

[BC]

My opinions and my conclusions are not always exactly what I write as my writing is sometimes just myself thinking aloud.  My real and final conclusions are usually somewhere near the middle of these opposing viewpoints.

May i suggest a name change to RandomThoughts?

[GQBlues]

...You can't take me too literally as I'm a true Gemini...

Aww shucks, Geminis!  I had en ex who is a Gemini and NOT taking her literally was likely the best thing I ever did.   
 

...The system gives me pause and makes me seriously think, why would a sane man proceed into this madness??

I made a statement once before that the best compliment I can ever give FSUWs living here in the US is they really are no different than any other AW given the same conditions, opportunities and circumstances AW have. Conversely, had roles been reversed, things for the most part would still be one and the same...
 

...I am like a car broken down on the freeway now that needs to be towed to a repair shop and wait for special parts before it can be repaired and proceed.  Since the budget for the vacation has been spoiled by the car repairs the traveler is now considering alternate destinations, even those close by...

Exploring ALL options is ALWAYS a very good thing, including the suggestion of Lebanese women...I am serious about that.
 

[Rubicon]

May i suggest a name change to RandomThoughts?

No, I like let me Con you Rubes into thinking that I'm serious better...

[JohnDearGreen]

Had this not hit youtube and gone international, the result would have been very different.

I would guess youtube and international had zero to do with it. 


Yanukovych made a phone call to the guy's father denouncing the event.   Posters were posted around town.   Yanukovych doesn't want a revolt in his home region. 

[Boethius]

I would guess youtube and international had zero to do with it.

He would never have faced arrest had that youtube video not been posted.