Russian Dolls Show on Lifetime TV

[Misha]

As I feared. Oh well, PC in action.

Unlike some, I do not see PC as a derogatory term and sometimes a spade must be called a spade and identifying someone based solely on the shape of their nose has more than a tinge of anti-semitism 

[OlgaH]

For Russian speaking members from the movie Liquidation 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcTW7m0zsg&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YczFAEpQXmc&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Ec6hnSmPs&feature=related[/youtube]

[Ranetka]

Unlike some, I do not see PC as a derogatory term and sometimes a spade must be called a spade and identifying someone based solely on the shape of their nose has more than a tinge of anti-semitism 

Misha, how many times a member here would say he seen a lady in a shop/mall/market who looks like Russsian and wow she was a Russian? I do not remember you sticking up and saying that it is (racist) anti-Russian to identify someone as a Russian based on their face/hips/scirt length?

[Misha]

Misha, how many times a member here would say he seen a lady in a shop/mall/market who looks like Russsian and wow she was a Russian? I do not remember you sticking up and saying that it is (racist) anti-Russian to identify someone as a Russian based on their face/hips/scirt length?

The difference is obvious: if the woman in question spoke no Russia and said that she was Italian, I would not insist that she was Russian 

[Ranetka]

The difference is obvious: if the woman in question spoke no Russia and said that she was Italian, I would not insist that she was Russian 

Well, I would not insist either, however if her name was Natalya Ivanovna Sergeeva and she spoke Italian with distinct Russian accent I would shrug my shoulders....

[Misha]

Well, I would not insist either, however if her name was Natalya Ivanovna Sergeeva and she spoke Italian with distinct Russian accent I would shrug my shoulders....

So, you are saying that there is a distinct "Jewish" accent ??? Also, names can be misleading. One common last name in French Canada is Blackburn. The name comes from a Scottish ancestor who converted to Catholicism and took a French-speaking wife. Simply put, he was pretty much assimilated to the French language and culture and his descendants would consider themselves French-Canadian or Québécois, but to follow your logic, I should not consider any of them as truly belonging to the community because their name isn't French enough 

[Ranetka]

So, you are saying that there is a distinct "Jewish" accent ???
 
 
 
Also, names can be misleading. One common last name in French Canada is Blackburn. The name comes from a Scottish ancestor who converted to Catholicism and took a French-speaking wife. Simply put, he was pretty much assimilated to the French language and culture and his descendants would consider themselves French-Canadian or Québécois, but to follow your logic, I should not consider any of them as truly belonging to the community because their name isn't French enough 

 
1. No
 
2. I do not know Misha, I have no clue what are you talking about.
 
All I know is people of the show are American (or American Jews) with Soviet roots. I do not know why you prefer calling them Russians.

[Misha]

I do not know why you prefer calling them Russians.

Because, based on what I saw, that is what they prefer calling themselves 

[Ranetka]

Because, based on what I saw, that is what they prefer calling themselves 

Абрам, на улице евреев бьют!
   - Сара, нам-то что, мы же русские по паспорту...   - Абрам, они бьют не по паспорту, а по морде!    Старый анекдот

[OlgaH]

So, you are saying that there is a distinct "Jewish" accent ??? Also, names can be misleading. One common last name in French Canada is Blackburn. The name comes from a Scottish ancestor who converted to Catholicism and took a French-speaking wife. Simply put, he was pretty much assimilated to the French language and culture and his descendants would consider themselves French-Canadian or Québécois, but to follow your logic, I should not consider any of them as truly belonging to the community because their name isn't French enough 

Yes they do. Odessa Jews in Russia are especially recognized by their accent and manner to talk. I posted some clips from the movie. I agree that the names can be misleading. I had a colleague with name Vladimir Vladimirovich who never hid the fact that he was a Jew and with his look and manner to speak it would be very difficult to hide his origin. Such name in Russia as Tsylya, Abba, Avraam (Abram), Anshel, Mosher, Mendel, Isaak, Isya, Benya, David, Lyeya, Freeda and Freida, Khana, Tsophia (Tsopha), Sarah and many other names are typical Jewish names in Russia.

Roman Kartsev (his name by birth Roman Anshelevich Kats) , a Jew
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIa6-vn9htQ&feature=related[/youtube]

Mikhail Zhvanyetsky, a Jew
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu8Syazumi8&feature=related[/youtube]

[OlgaH]

Because, based on what I saw, that is what they prefer calling themselves 

or it is just a show business prefers to call them like that 

[Daveman]

Unlike some, I do not see PC as a derogatory term and sometimes a spade must be called a spade and identifying someone based solely on the shape of their nose has more than a tinge of anti-semitism 

Well I must confess... the shape of the nose has always been one way I have used to identify ugly people!

[Misha]

Yes they do. Odessa Jews in Russia are especially recognized by their accent and manner to talk.

And, there are many others who do not have an accent.

I posted some clips from the movie. I agree that the names can be misleading. I had a colleague with name Vladimir Vladimirovich who never hid the fact that he was a Jew and with his look and manner to speak it would be very difficult to hide his origin. Such name in Russia as Tsylya, Abba, Avraam (Abram), Anshel, Mosher, Mendel, Isaak, Isya, Benya, David, Lyeya, Freeda and Freida, Khana, Tsophia (Tsopha), Sarah and many other names are typical Jewish names in Russia.

Sure, these names would be more typical of someone who was a Russian Jew, yet as you point out, many others would have purely Slavic names. Then, there are some "Jewish" last names that are German in origin, and I know one young woman whose last name was a derivative of Abraham, even though she considers herself a member of one of Russia's Finno-Ugrian populations.... Should I tell her that she is really Jewish. Again, none of this is clear cut and the best indicator IMHO is simply what people prefer to call themselves.

[Misha]

or it is just a show business prefers to call them like that 

Immigration does that as well. Many Germans were considered German in Russia yet became Russian when they immigrated to Germany. From what I saw when visiting Brighton Beach, it is the Russian which prevails over any trace of Jewish culture...

[Ranetka]

 Again, none of this is clear cut and the best indicator IMHO is simply what people prefer to call themselves.

I finally see your point Misha and yes you do have a point. I think the disagreement with you (did you notice all three RW/UW taking part in this discussion disagree with you?) comes from the point that Russian Jews generally consider themselves ethnically Jews and when I see ethnic Jew calling themselves Russians I think they do it only for the benefit of the show. As I understand stereotipical American Jew is different to people in the show. I can not see this shaw called Jewish dolls, the viewers would be confused, don't you think so?

[Ranetka]

Immigration does that as well. Many Germans were considered German in Russia yet became Russian when they immigrated to Germany. From what I saw when visiting Brighton Beach, it is the Russian which prevails over any trace of Jewish culture...

I was told it is even worse in Israel.

[Ranetka]

It's Soviet culture preveils on Brighton Beach, I should think.

[Misha]

I finally see your point Misha and yes you do have a point. I think the disagreement with you (did you notice all three RW/UW taking part in this discussion disagree with you?) comes from the point that Russian Jews generally consider themselves ethnically Jews and when I see ethnic Jew calling themselves Russians I think they do it only for the benefit of the show.

Next time I visit Brighton Beach, I will ask the locals However, the inverse is also true: many Russians will also suspect that a person is "Jewish" even when there is no basis for this based solely on name and superficial physiognomy 

As I understand stereotipical American Jew is different to people in the show. I can not see this shaw called Jewish dolls, the viewers would be confused, don't you think so?

Well, I believe the title: "Women who speak Russian, love Russian food, are beholden to the Russian culture but may have some Russian Jewish ancestry, but then again may not necessarily be Jewish by faith as they may be Orthodox or something else Dolls" would have been a bit too long 

[OlgaH]

 From what I saw when visiting Brighton Beach, it is the Russian which prevails over any trace of Jewish culture...

Russian and Ukraine Jews would be more correct 

[Boethius]

Again, none of this is clear cut and the best indicator IMHO is simply what people prefer to call themselves.

You are assuming it is what they prefer to call themselves.  To North Americans, they are Russians and, as I posted previously, "Jewish" is not an ethnicity, IMO.  However,  I would hazard a guess if you had a discussion with one of them off camera, they'd say they are Jewish.  When you get asked this a lot, after a while, it is just easier to answer in the assertive, or make something up.
 

Many Germans were considered German in Russia yet became Russian when they immigrated to Germany

.
 
I actually knew a lot of old timers, Germans from Russia/Ukraine (other than Hutterites).  I met one German who had heard Trotsky speak, which was quite a fascinating story.    Prior to 1905, Germans in the Tsarist Empire had their own communities, their own schools, their own churches.  In many, they didn't even learn to read Russian.  After the upheavals in 1905, many of those communities were dispersed, which is why they emigrated.  After the anti German pogroms during WWI, most Germans changed their names to Slavic names.  To be a German in the USSR after WWII was horrific, and all those Germans hid their surnames and roots.  So, your example is a poor one.
 
 

[Misha]

I am recognised as Russian here due to my name and face, no British passport will ever make me English...

How about your grandkids? Should they be labeled Russian even if they call themselves British or even English?

[Boethius]

It's Soviet culture preveils on Brighton Beach, I should think.

Yes, absolutely!  And Soviet culture is not Russian, Ukrainian, or Jewish.

[Misha]

I would hazard a guess if you had a discussion with one of them off camera, they'd say they are Jewish.

I would say otherwise, but at this point it is best to agree to disagree...

To be a German in the USSR after WWII was horrific, and all those Germans hid their surnames and roots.  So, your example is a poor one.

My wife's father's family is German, and I have visited her relatives in Germany and spoken to them extensively. I am quite familiar with some of the challenges faced by German-speakers in the Soviet Union after WWII.

[Misha]

Yes, absolutely!  And Soviet culture is not Russian, Ukrainian, or Jewish.

True, but the imposed lingua franca of the Soviet Union was Russian and many of the cultural traditions of the Soviet Union were rooted in the Russian culture....

[Boethius]

No, I disagree about Russian cultural traditions.  Please name a unique Russian cultural tradition common throughout the USSR.