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[Ranetka]

It is an Orthodox tradition, not a Russian tradition.

Well, I do not mind:-)
 
I am an atheist so it is my Russian roots for me.

[OlgaH]

And their children? If the father is Jewish and the mother is not, will you automatically consider them Jewish?

I would consider they have a Jewish blood. 

[Misha]

It is an Orthodox tradition, not a Russian tradition.

And those Russians were never Orthodox 

[Misha]

I can assure you Russian Jews are not following this tradition. Neither Armenian, Yacuts, Tatars or whoever else. It's a Russian tradition, one of little things which make me Russian. Even if I am a non-beleiver I had a shot of vodka on Mums 40.
 
They do different thing in Jewdaism, it makes them Jew.

I expect that the Russian "Jews" also have a shot of vodka on the 40th day...

[OlgaH]

When someone says that the nationalities and their culture and language were discriminated in the USSR I wonder how such honorable singers of the USSR and the Soviet Republics like Rosa Rymbaeva, Muslim Magomaev, Polad Bul Bul Ogly, Sophia Rotaru, band "Pesnyary", band "Verasy" and many others were allowed to sing their songs in their native language and have their recordings in their native language in the Soviet stores all over the USSR? How the Ukrainian honorable dancer of the USSR Pavlo Virsky could found his National Folk Dance Ensemble of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic in 1937?

[OlgaH]

They do different thing in Jewdaism, it makes them Jew.

it makes them followers of Judaism. Some Jews by birth or blood practice Christianity as well.
There two different words, conceptions in Russian language : Еврей (Yevrey) and Иудей (Ee-oo-dey)

[Ranetka]

When someone says that the nationalities and their culture and language were discriminated in the USSR I wonder how such honorable singers of the USSR and the Soviet Republics like Rosa Rymbaeva, Muslim Magomaev, Polad Bul Bul Ogly, Sophia Rotaru, band "Pesnyary", band "Verasy" and many others were allowed to sing their songs in their native language and have their recordings in their native language in the Soviet stores all over the USSR? How the Ukrainian honorable dancer of the USSR Pavlo Virsky could found his National Folk Dance Ensemble of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic in 1937?

потому что когнитивный диссонанс наступает сразу, Оля

[OlgaH]

потому что когнитивный диссонанс наступает сразу, Оля

Yeah.

[Misha]

When someone says that the nationalities and their culture and language were discriminated in the USSR I wonder how such honorable singers of the USSR and the Soviet Republics like Rosa Rymbaeva, Muslim Magomaev, Polad Bul Bul Ogly, Sophia Rotaru, band "Pesnyary", band "Verasy" and many others were allowed to sing their songs in their native language and have their recordings in their native language in the Soviet stores all over the USSR? How the Ukrainian honorable dancer of the USSR Pavlo Virsky could found his National Folk Dance Ensemble of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic in 1937?

Window dressing for the most part to prove that the Soviet neo-Russian empire was not a "prison of nations"....

[OlgaH]

Window dressing for the most part to prove that the Soviet neo-Russian empire was not a "prison of nations"....

Ah, of course, what else could be expected, you have proved Ranetka's point about "cognitive imbalance"  Thanks Misha!

[Boethius]

And those Russians were never Orthodox 

No, they were Orthodox.

You argued that this is a tradition "imposed" on Soviets by Russian culture.  But this tradition is not a Soviet tradition, nor is it an exclusively Russian tradition.  It was a tradition in Ukraine, including the Greek Catholic parts of Ukraine, in Belarus, in Georgia, in Armenia, and in non Soviet countries, such as Serbia, Greece, and Ethiopia, though with different drinks.  It has nothing to do with the Soviets, and everything to do with the idea that the soul wanders the earth for forty days (Mendy gave an excellent description of this elsewhere on the forum).  So, it can't really even be viewed as a Russian tradition.  It would be akin to saying Christianity is a "Russian" tradition imposed on, say, Georgians.

If anything, the Soviets wished to extinguish this tradition, but it, like veneration of icons, survived the Soviets.

Soviet Muslims did not follow this tradition.

[Misha]

No, they were Orthodox.

You argued that this is a tradition "imposed" on Soviets by Russian culture.  But this tradition is not a Soviet tradition, nor is it an exclusively Russian tradition.  It was a tradition in Ukraine, including the Greek Catholic parts of Ukraine, in Belarus, in Georgia, in Armenia, and in non Soviet countries, such as Serbia, Greece, and Ethiopia, though with different drinks.

Yes, the Soviets wanted to emulate Ethiopia 

If anything, the Soviets wished to extinguish this tradition, but it, like veneration of icons, survived the Soviets.

Sure some wanted to extinguish it, others understood that by taking some elements of Russian culture and creating a new syncretism it would be easier to have the masses accept Soviet rule.


Also, Pierre Bourdieu would use the concept of doxa to explain it: some elements of culture are naturalized and not even seen as cultural: it is simply the way that everybody it is assumed would do it....


At other times, Russians and "Soviets" tried to bring about cultural change using their preconceived cultural notions as to what was appropriate. This was the case in the Russian Arctic where they would have the indigenous peoples listen to classical music in the red chum to enlighten them and the workers would teach them "cleanliness" which would involve setting up a banya-chum in the tundra.... But, of course, you will certainly come up with an explanation as to how this is not truly "Russian" culture but is really a pan-Slavic tradition that Soviet workers were drawing from in their quest to eradicate Russian culture and replace it with a pure Soviet culture 

[OlgaH]

Misha, what do you know about such Soviet ethnographers, social anthropologists and their works as Sergej Tolstov, Yulia Shibaeva, Balkis Karmysheva, Andrey Anokhin, Nikolai Kyuner, Nikolai Gondatti and many others of different periods of of the Soviet time.

And some ethnographers and linguist that did their study during Imperial Russia like Vasily Verbitsky, Nikolai Blinov, Johann Anton Güldenstädt, Peter Simon Pallas and many others... Ah, of course, all their works on different ethnic groups and nationalities are just a "window dressing"     

[Ranetka]

Misha. What exactly is your point?
 
Was teaching people to bath a bad thing? Or is bathing  specifically Russian fenomena?
 
Or did they need to put central heating and build water supply into tundra before starting washing kids?
 
Do you consider buiding banyas in tundra soviet or russian influence?

[Boethius]

Yes, the Soviets wanted to emulate Ethiopia 

The point is this was never either a uniquely Soviet nor a uniquely Russian tradition, though you have insisted otherwise.

Sure some wanted to extinguish it, others understood that by taking some elements of Russian culture and creating a new syncretism it would be easier to have the masses accept Soviet rule.

I guess that's why they jailed all those Orthodox priests and closed over 90% of all the Orthodox churches.

At other times, Russians and "Soviets" tried to bring about cultural change using their preconceived cultural notions as to what was appropriate. This was the case in the Russian Arctic where they would have the indigenous peoples listen to classical music in the red chum to enlighten them and the workers would teach them "cleanliness" which would involve setting up a banya-chum in the tundra....

Right.  No classical music was known in Siberia before the Revolution.    Have you ever heard of a famous pre Revolution resident of the Udmurt Republic?

But, of course, you will certainly come up with an explanation as to how this is not truly "Russian" culture but is really a pan-Slavic tradition that Soviet workers were drawing from in their quest to eradicate Russian culture and replace it with a pure Soviet culture 

Because classical music existed nowhere else but Russia or the Soviet Union.

[Misha]

Misha, what do you know about such Soviet ethnographers, social anthropologists and their works as Sergej Tolstov, Yulia Shibaeva, Balkis Karmysheva, Andrey Anokhin, Nikolai Kyuner, Nikolai Gondatti and many others of different periods of of the Soviet time.

The work done in the 1920s was actually quite progressive. There was a lot of effort being put into developing alphabets, developing indigenous literatures, etc... However, by the end of the 1930s, as you know, there was a clampdown on all of this and by the 1950s what was left was being eroded. For example, children were still being educated in many of the larger indigenous languages of Russia in the early 1950s, but by the end of the decade, the language of instruction was in Russian with only a token amount of time left for teaching the indigenous language and literature.... By the end of the Soviet period, ethnography had become folklore study with the goal to find the grandmother to record the wedding and funeral songs...

[Ranetka]

For example, children were still being educated in many of the larger indigenous languages of Russia in the early 1950s, but by the end of the decade, the language of instruction was in Russian with only a token amount of time left for teaching the indigenous language and literature....
 
Misha, show me the country which does better job. I assume Canadian ingenious population can study in school or uni in their own language? Or is it English/French?
 
 

[Boethius]

Which languages?

The languages of each of the Soviet republics were all taught in republic schools, and students could choose to have their primary education in either the language of the republic or in Russian.

[Boethius]

Misha, show me the country which does better job. I assume Canadian ingenious population can study in school or uni in their own language? Or is it English/French?
 

In Alberta, where I live, students can be taught in a variety of languages, though they are bilingual programmes - Ukrainian, Mandarin, Russian, Spanish, Arabic, Hebrew, German, French, etc.

[Misha]

The point is this was never either a uniquely Soviet nor a uniquely Russian tradition, though you have insisted otherwise.

Where did I insist that it was uniquely Russian? It is part of a complex of features that I would consider the larger Russian culture....

I guess that's why they jailed all those Orthodox priests and closed over 90% of all the Orthodox churches.

Again, they took enough to have the regime survive, in the same way that Christianity took elements of pre-existing beliefs and incorporated it into their beliefs to facilitate conversion, while they were destroying pagan idols.... One does not contradict the other.

Right.  No classical music was known in Siberia before the Revolution.    Have you ever heard of a famous pre Revolution resident of the Udmurt Republic?

Who said Siberia? I wrote northern Russia and the Arctic    There weren't many symphonies being organized in the tundra.

Because classical music existed nowhere else but Russia or the Soviet Union.

Did I say this? No, what I said is that the Russians who were going up north were taking what they considered to be essential features of their culture (irregardless of their origins) and imposing it on the local population.

[Misha]

Again, the Soviet Union was doing a better job itself before the progressive policies that had been instituted in the 1920s gave way to the increasingly regressive policies of later decades   

[OlgaH]

 But, of course, you will certainly come up with an explanation as to how this is not truly "Russian" culture but is really a pan-Slavic tradition that Soviet workers were drawing from in their quest to eradicate Russian culture and replace it with a pure Soviet culture 

Misha they tried to eradicate what thee considered to be bebourgeois, capitalistic... otherwise all the Russian folk songs, dances, traditions and customs and so on would be forgotten and lost. But it all was preserved by the Soviet historians and ethnographers, and not only Russian culture.

Misha, you posts show how little you know 

[Ranetka]

In Alberta, where I live, students can be taught in a variety of languages, though they are bilingual programmes - Ukrainian, Mandarin, Russian, Spanish, Arabic, Hebrew, German, French, etc.

I did not know that thanks Boethius. Nothing like this can be done in the UK. Although what they are good here is all government web-sites etc is in many different lanuages.

[Misha]

Which languages?

The languages of each of the Soviet republics were all taught in republic schools, and students could choose to have their primary education in either the language of the republic or in Russian.

Yes, the 15 titular languages, however, in the Russian Republic of the Soviet Union there were autonomous republics, okrugs, etc... where a variety of language rights had been bestowed upon the indigenous inhabitants in their territories. These language rights were eroded and progressively taken away 

[Misha]

Misha, you posts show how little you know 

Sorry, we are descending into ad hominem, I am out of here.