Met a girl from Ukraine...

[peterallen1010]

I am from Canada and have met a Ukranian girl on the internet. We have talked awhile. We now discuss marriage if we meet and like each other in real life. How can I best look into the legalities of such marriage. I want to know what I'm getting myself and her into. I don't want to start getting romantically involved in real life visits only to waste both of our time. Where to get married? Prenuptial agreements? Immigration/sponsorship for her and her child into Canada? etc... etc...

We both realize it will be difficult and expensive, I am ready for the challenge.
I hope this website will help the process. There are so many questions and concerns I have.
Anyone in Canada with experience? Please message me, as I don't know where to begin.

Thank you!

[Boethius]

Welcome to the forum, Peter.
 
You can marry and, after marriage, sponsor your wife to come to Canada.  You will be required to sign a pledge to sponsor your spouse if the marriage fails within a certain period, and she receives any social assistance payments, or other government subsidies.
 
A prenuptial agreement will not likely have much relevance.  You can sign one, but a court would still likely require you to pay some support were your marriage to break up. 

[peterallen1010]

This is very basic information.
Do you have a link or contact information for a lawyer or legal documents that help better?

Essentialy, I need to know 'EXACTLY' what I need to marry her either in Ukraine or in Canada. And I need to know exactly what the risks are for her and me. I suppose I need to talk to lawyer. So any help in finding a good one with experience in Canadian marrying Ukrainian would be great.

I read on a website for United Sates that you have to stay in Ukraine for 'months' before marriage. Is this true and if so is it the same for Canadians?? Is it possible that after I visit her, she and baby can come to Canada as a visitor and get married in Canada? If so... which way is easier?

"She receives any social assistance payments, or other government subsidies."
Sorry, but I am completely ignorant... what exactly are we talking about? And what is the maximum amount in dollars and/or percentage of what I earn that I am risking to support her and baby if marriage fails? Is it really possible that she plans to marry me and steal my money? I think I know her better than that, but you never know. She was married once before, Is there a limit to how many men have to pay her support? etc... etc...

I have so many questions and concerns 

[Boethius]

It is very difficult for a Ukrainian to obtain a visa for Canada, so it is not too likely you can marry in Canada.  No, it does not take months to marry in Ukraine.  I suspect the US sites were referring to fiancee visas, which do not exist in Canada.

On sponsorship of a spouse, here is the federal form -
 
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/forms/IMM1344E.PDF
 
Under current law, once your spouse enters Canada, she obtains landed immigrant status.   If, three days after arriving, she decides to leave you and applies for social assistance, you will be obligated to repay those amounts to the province from which she receives social assistance.  If she has no money, you will be required to pay her a sufficient amount so that she can survive.  That is before any support payments under matrimonial  law, although the amount you pay under the sponsorship would be considered in any award.  The sponsorship is for a period of 3 years.  As you will sponsor her child as well, you would be required to pay adequate child support as her sponsor.  That would be for at least 10 years as a sponsor, perhaps longer under matrimonial law. 
 
I don't think anyone here can answer your question on whether the woman is sincere or not, only you can know that.  But, you will need the father's consent for the child to leave Ukraine.   
 
I suggest you visit her several times before making a decision.  Marriage, particularly with a child involved, should not be rushed.  If you are not, even at this juncture, willing to support that child if things go sideways, this may not be something for you to try.
 
ETA - A lawyer may help you with the immigration process, and you can speak to any family law lawyer about the potential obligations you will have if you marry and the marriage falls apart.  That would be no different than for a Canadian, and you will be regarded, by Canadian law, as the father of the child.
 

[peterallen1010]

I would never leave her, but if she leaves me...
I'm willing to support (to an extent) them if marriage falls apart.

However, I need to know how much the support is.

If marriage fails and they stay in Ukraine, I know living costs in Ukraine are not so much. But if they immigrate successfully to Canada, and marriage fails. Then of course it will be much more expensive. I would be willing to support her fully in Ukraine, but not to pay her 'full' expenses in Canada if she leaves me. Am I looking at this correctly? And, are you sure prenuptial agreement will not help, even when they are living in Canada?

[Boethius]

Under the sponsorship criteria, if a sponsored spouse claims social assistance during the period you agreed to sponsor her, you are on the hook for the full amount of that assistance.  I don't know what province you live in, but I do know that Ontario has pursued sponsors.

A prenuptial agreement will only clarify which assets are yours, but it can be varied by a judge, and I have seen that happen.  Family law differs province to province.  In Alberta, for example, all assets you own at the time of marriage are exempt, but the increase in the value of those assets is divided 50/50.  A prenup may keep that value fully in your hands, but not always, it depends on many factors - length of marriage, bargaining positions of the parties, circumstances at time of divorce, etc.  In Ontario, if you own the matrimonial home before marriage, it is not exempt after marriage, and becomes a matrimonial asset.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a prenup, just that I wouldn't assume it is binding, particularly when you are dealing with individuals with unequal bargaining positions (a non English speaking immigrant vs a native speaking Canadian).

A prenuptial agreement will have no effect on spousal support, nor on child support.  Child support is determined by a schedule to the Divorce Act, and is based on your salary. 

[Faux Pas]

Welcome to RWD peter!


Honestly, you have the cart well before the horse. I gather you have not yet even went to visit this lady and are already having discussions of marriage. Solid advice is to slow wayyy down. Go visit her, spend some time with her in her country. Make several trips and perhaps then, open some discussions of marriage.


You haven't met her and you don't know her. Would you be so quick to discuss marriage with a Canadian woman you don't know?


The answer to your questions is Yes to all. You can do it. However, if you do it flying off the seat of your pants as you are contemplating now, the other answers are also yes, she will leave you and she will take your money.


There is a lot here for you to read. Slow down and take time to learn


Good Luck

[Gator]

Peter,
 
Welcome! 
 
I concur with FauxPas.  You questions suggest a very cautious person, yet cautious people do not rush into marriage, especially with someone from another culture.
 
Why not just visit her a few times and see if true love develops?   That is a better goal than visiting her with a plan for marriage.  High expectations can cause people to overlook some basics that should come first.
 
Regarding prenups, Boethius's general summary of how they function in Canada is similar to America.  To develop a prenup with an Ukrainian woman can be expensive because of the time her lawyer will need to make sure the UW understands what she is signing.  If a judge believes she did not understand it, he will ignore the prenup.  Also, a prenup needs to have reasonable terms.  Why must she return to Ukraine if she has immigrated to Canada?  That seems unreasonable if she has the legal right to stay.  That should be her choice.
 
And if you have a baby I would hope that you would want to share joint custody with the mother and support your child through university days.
 
Marriage is a huge step.  Know your woman.
 
 

[I/O]

Peter, you have this thing completely arse-ways-about. Go meet the girl then ask questions about marriage.

[peterallen1010]

Thanks for the replies.   
 
Regarding seperation......What I'm understanding is that because I live in Alberta it's 50% of earnings plus some child support? I can accept that. But it seems like I'm marrying her in the Ukraine, is it the same law?? I'm confused about this...maybe I didn't read the reply thoroughly. What if marriage fails before she gets immigrated to Canada?

I think this is all I'll need to know for now.

Yes I'm cautious, but want know what I'm getting into long term. We have discussed possibility of marriage and I told her I'd look into the details. Of course I will visit her first as a friend and see what happens. I do not plan to marry her on first visit, but who knows what may happen. A couple concerns, how many people in Ukraine speak fluent english? And what is the best thread/sites here about visiting Ukraine...so I don't waste alot of time browsing the forum or internet. 

 

[Boethius]

Regarding seperation......What I'm understanding is that because I live in Alberta it's 50% of earnings plus some child support? I can accept that. But it seems like I'm marrying her in the Ukraine, is it the same law?? I'm confused about this...maybe I didn't read the reply thoroughly. What if marriage fails before she gets immigrated to Canada?

No.  All the assets you take into the marriage are not community property.  In the absence of a prenup, the increase in the value of those assets after marriage is split 50/50.  With a prenup, you may be able to keep those assets but frankly, a judge will likely award her something, because any prenup she signs will be challenged as unfair. 

In addition to property, you likely would have to pay her some alimony until she can establish a career, and you would pay child support through at least one university degree for her child, assuming the child's father consents to the child moving to Canada.

[Muzh]

It is very difficult for a Ukrainian to obtain a visa for Canada, so it is not too likely you can marry in Canada.  No, it does not take months to marry in Ukraine.  I suspect the US sites were referring to fiancee visas, which do not exist in Canada.

Boe, not really. I know two AM who married in UA. They were required to live in UA for 3 months befor a visit to the chapel. Of course, one of them (cough cough) convinced the official that 3 weeks were more than enough and they got the green light after 3 weeks.
 
Neither of them had any intentions of filing for a fiancee visa.

[Misha]

What if marriage fails before she gets immigrated to Canada?

After you marry, you will have to sponsor he so that she may apply for permanent residence. What happens if the marriage fails before she gets to Canada? I don't know. You will have to look at the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website to see whether you can cancel your sponsorship.

[Hammer2722]

You haven't even met in person yet you are already talking about marriage? Are you serious???? Doesn't sound like someone who is being cautious at all. Hope your not sending "her" any money..... 

[Jumper]

I read on a website for United States that you have to stay in Ukraine for 'months' before marriage.

The rules for zags would apply to any foriegn citizen be that US or Canadian marrying a Ukrainian in Ukraine.
 
Several of us have married in the past in Ukraine..
most recently moderator Daveman.
 
I can assure you any wait period that zags specifies
can be waved for extenuating circumstances.
IE: her fiancee is in town from another country, and so of course cant reasonable stay the designated waiting time.
 
I have had it waved in the past, and certainly not reduced to 3 weeks, it was waved completely and could marry immediately if the other documents were in order.
 
 Now this can be done as simply as having your intended file the appropriate documents for waving this wait period  at zags
(which you will also likely need specific docs from the canadian embassy and the ukrainian ministry of foriegn affairs
like the non impendement to marry letter,etc)
 
or it can be simple to  bribe, it IS the FSU, and such things are easily waved or greatly hastened with an appropriate bribe,
if official chanels dint work in your time frame.
 It isn't your culture but your *intended * would know how to manage this,or be able to find someonwe who could, it's fairly common.
 
As others have stated , I wouldn't worry about the particulars until after you met and BOTH decided this was the course of action you wanted to take.
 
I do believe Canada has a given time frame (1 or 2 years?)
you need to be already married prior to her being granted a spousal /family visa to enter Canada??
 
This would be important to check your governments websites for the immigration specifics,
its doubtful you need a family immigration lawyer to get that informnation, but you would need to look up the legalities and conditions on the Canadian goverrment agencies in charge of immigration?
 
 
 
Now as far as marrying in ukraine or ,any other country ,
and how it would apply in a divorce settlement scenario in Canada -
 
my understanding is when applying for a family based visa , you are in fact asking the Canadian government to fully recognize your wedding and relationship as official and legal -
and so are requesting they allow your immediate family member to immigrate to be  with you.
 
So you can't expect them to recognize it as a legal wedding
(just like a marriage in canada) and then the
divorce rules of your country to  somehow not equally apply?
 
 
when you state you'd be willing to support her in ukraine at that level, but not at the level of canada ,
its a huge red flag to me , and i hope she isnt reading this.
 
I understand that if it was a fraudulent marriage you wouldn't feel responcible, and can partiually understand the sentiment..
 
However,
would you think similarly of a canadian woman you met and wanted to marry?
but it fell apart quickly..
 
 
The root of this question i hope is embeded in confusion...
 
as certainly any wife , regardless her original country of origin, would be entitled to whatever your countries laws deemed appropriate compensations?
for the time or duration of the marriage etc.
 
 
yes, there is the risk of her using you for immigration only ,
and a quick divorce.
 
Your country is assuming you have vetted the person you married before issuing a visa for them, they arnt going to have seperate legalities in divorce in case you did not, or the person was of poor character, this could happen with a local woman as well.
 
but generally you are signing a acknowledgement that an immigrant you are requesting a visa for, has some risks ,,
and as sponsor,you bear this risk, accepting it so that she wouldn't be a burden on other Canadian citizens if left in a position of seeking governmental financial aid.
 
Generally this seems fair to everyone involved ,
if it doesn't you need to think about sponsoring any immigrant very carefully.
As you are accepting certain risks and ultimate reponcibilty in most cases like the US or Canada.
 

[peterallen1010]

Wow! 

Thanks again for the replies, I feel much more educated. Now I can proceed with arrangements of meeting her and her family. I hope for romance, but if we remain friends it's cool. She is a wonderfully awesome girl! 

The last question was not answered. How many people in Ukraine speak fluent or passing English? Do I need to worry about a translator?? My understanding is that a very large percentage have basic understanding of English, so translator services aren't really required? I want to know what to expect. What is the best thread or websites about visiting Ukraine?

Those are all my concerns for now...............Thanks again!    

[peterallen1010]

What I was trying to say is not so much that I'm not willing to support her. Just more a question of whether I would be able to and still have enough to live. Even if I were to marry a Canadian girl I would still want to know what I am getting myself into. The whole living in 2 different countries and speaking different languages just makes everything so complicated.

 

[Anotherkiwi]

Wow! 

Thanks again for the replies, I feel much more educated. Now I can proceed with arrangements of meeting her and her family. I hope for romance, but if we remain friends it's cool. She is a wonderfully awesome girl!...

Peter, you said in chat that you're 30 and this girl is 19.  No matter how much she seems "into you" at the moment, pretty well everyone on here will say that she's too young to contemplate marriage (of course there are exceptions, such as BillyB's fiancee A).  By all means go and meet her, but remember that your chances of a real, lasting romance with her are somewhere between zero and 0.1.  If you use the trip as a holiday, expecting very little, you may be pleasantly surprised when you meet some older women (say 26-30).
 
Whatever happens, good luck!

[Ade]

(of course there are exceptions, such as BillyB's fiancee A). 

 

[Darth_Budda]

When they hit 21,,,

It's a major Road bump,,,, At least it was for my ex-AW...

But if you do run after her,,,, Make sure she has time to do kid stuff,, And she will be happy,,,,,

You know the things you did when you were 21.

I am 27 and gonna look around the 22-26 range.. with older being a plus...

[Boethius]

I'll assume at age 19, she does not have much of an education. 

If your marriage in Canada fails, you will also pay for her retraining, which may include a university degree, until she is able to establish a career.  I have seen that in cases of stay at home mothers, and alimony is often for up to a decade while the ex retrains in a particular field.

[tfcrew]

peterallen1010 .. You haven't met this woman and you want to marry her?
 Also, the redundant feeling that you have to have  some attorney to conduct this affair for you at every turn spells failure in any language.  IMHO.

Karl

 

[peterallen1010]

Things are appearing not so hopeful....but I think I will still visit....eventually. It will be a good vacation if nothing else. Thanks for beating some sense into me. Thank you for your viewpoints friends.

 

[myheart2ukraine]

Wow! 

Thanks again for the replies, I feel much more educated. Now I can proceed with arrangements of meeting her and her family. I hope for romance, but if we remain friends it's cool. She is a wonderfully awesome girl! 

The last question was not answered. How many people in Ukraine speak fluent or passing English? Do I need to worry about a translator?? My understanding is that a very large percentage have basic understanding of English, so translator services aren't really required? I want to know what to expect. What is the best thread or websites about visiting Ukraine?

Those are all my concerns for now...............Thanks again!   

hi mate MH2U wasn`t going 2 reply 2 your earlier posts as you seemed a bit  inept/ditherer when it came 2 romancing a woman here..... until the above!

if you need any help with the above then i or my girlfriend will help no problem (click below)

i much hope your ukrainian woman is as awesome as you say,  so welcome aboard mate on romancing that hott, hott ukrainian bird & may it last & last & last!

myheart2ukraine     

[Gator]

Things are appearing not so hopeful....but I think I will still visit....eventually. It will be a good vacation if nothing else. Thanks for beating some sense into me. Thank you for your viewpoints friends.

 

Actually, with this open yet cautious attitude you could do well with FSUW, the right FSUW.  Many new guys come here, listen to what RWD members say, reject it, and then swim up the River de Nile as if he is different (or worse, she or her situation is different).
 
Enjoy your trip.