RW with children: pros and cons

[BillyB]

The irony here seems to be lost. We apparently have one part time dad with a 10 year old and another with a 4 year old giving advice on raising teens to one that has 3 of them. Some of you guys should stick to what you know, instead of what you think you know.

My sister knows a woman with 4 kids with the oldest being 18. Each kid has a different father. I'll see if I can locate her to give advice here. I'm sure you'll agree she's had more parenting experience than the rest of us thus making her the ideal parent.

[Nat]

So basically in most cases there is a reason why these women are both single and childless... Off course some couldn't have a child for health reasons but I haven't come across any one of those women. Usually it is more about being selfish, selfabsorbed, with psychological and even psychiatric issues.

Wow, yeah, those selfish bitches wanna think of themselves and even have fun in things, which are not connected with bringing up children - can you imagine that?!  How can a woman, whose main purpose is to serve men and create other people have other wishes? How can they think of travelling, or developing themselves as personalities, or something else if they have a right to do that only under the condition that their primer duty will always be taking care of their men, household and children, and other minor goals can only go as a free-time hobby?!
Oh my, that's unbelievable 

[vwrw]

Wow, yeah, those selfish bitches wanna think of themselves and even have fun in things, which are not connected with bringing up children - can you imagine that?!  How can a woman, whose main purpose is to serve men and create other people have other wishes? How can they think of travelling, or developing themselves as personalities, or something else if they have a right to do that only under the condition that their primer duty will always be taking care of their men, household and children, and other minor goals can only go as a free-time hobby?!
Oh my, that's unbelievable 

+1 Earning big $$$ and building career also may require choosing a child or career and income.
 
 

[Faux Pas]

My sister knows a woman with 4 kids with the oldest being 18. Each kid has a different father. I'll see if I can locate her to give advice here. I'm sure you'll agree she's had more parenting experience than the rest of us thus making her the ideal parent.

Who has said anything about her (other than you) being an ideal parent? I wouldn't be surprised if thats where you've amassed what you are dispensing here. You quoted my post so I guess it's safe to say to take umbrage with me calling you out on giving parenting advice on teens from a part time father with one 10 year old kid? This topic as the others that you seem intent on pounding your chest and dispensing your Tarzan advice isn't worth the time it takes to read it. IMHO, that should be pointed out to any newbies that may wander through to read it.


It's no surprise as you constantly harp advice about subjects you know very little to nothing about. 

[BillyB]

Who has said anything about her (other than you) being an ideal parent? I wouldn't be surprised if thats where you've amassed what you are dispensing here. You quoted my post so I guess it's safe to say to take umbrage with me calling you out on giving parenting advice on teens from a part time father with one 10 year old kid? This topic as the others that you seem intent on pounding your chest and dispensing your Tarzan advice isn't worth the time it takes to read it. IMHO, that should be pointed out to any newbies that may wander through to read it.


It's no surprise as you constantly harp advice about subjects you know very little to nothing about. 

Faux, it's no surprise to anyone that you are one of the guys that got a hard on for me and follows me around but putting out bad opinions as you did to take a shot at me hurts you more than me. Since I have more kids than Ade, could you tell him to listen to me more on the subject?
 
Welfare mothers have more children on average than working mothers. I would prefer a working mother as a wife and mother to children over a welfare mother any day. Using your analogy welfare mothers would be better parents since they deal with more children and have more free time to spend with their children to help them grow.
 
Vote Obama. he has more experience as President than any Republican contender. Too bad Bush can't pull of a Putin and come back. Bush has over twice the experience as Obama.
 
Experience isn't the only important thing in politics or parenting as you imply but I suspect you weren't serious and just saying that to take a shot at me. A couple with a newborn aren't automatically bad parents compared to a couple who have 5 grown up kids. Everybody who decides to have kids will have their shot at parenting.
 
Ade says ignoring experts advice is being ignorant. I gave him Al Gore earlier, someone he respects more than hates, and showed him Al Gore can go against the grain of what he used to believe in. He has access to some of the best studies done by intelligent professors from the best universities and Al Gore concluded the pros and cons and thinks the death penatly is a good thing for society. Punishment creates fear and curbs bad behavior to the benefit of many. Ade then showed expert advice contradictory to what Al Gore read. Are only the experts Ade chooses to believe in right?
 
Spare the rod and spoil the childs many experts say. Spanking creates violent kids many experts say. Too much love and attention isn't a good thing experts say. Not enough love and attention isn't a good thing experts say. There are plenty of experts but no experts advice solves all problems. Love doesn't solve all the problems with a child just as it won't with a marriage. Every child is different so different methods should be used raising the child.
 
Working in constuction I work around a lot of people who have been in Ade's shoes. Crime, violence, and drugs. I do not judge them for their past, only how they are in the present. I don't not know if they were spoiled with too much love or neglected with not enough love when they were children. I do not know if their parents were strict and spanked them too much or if their parents were too loose and allowed their kids freedom to run loose. What I do know is coming out of childhood, if they aren't decent citizens, society will deal with them.
 
Most kids grow up just fine. Those that don't usually have the same story on how they changed after having a bad history as a young adult. They start off as rebels and users. Stealing property and money to support their drug habits and sometimes using violent means. If they're not a complete deadbeat and try to work, they are usually not productive and even steal from their employers. The girls or guys they attract are also like them, users and losers. They are angry, bitter and become Seriously Jaded(pun intended) about life. At this point no amount of love or attention will cure them.
 
Society will cure them with love but through neglect, rejection, retaliation and incarceration. These young people will change when they fall hard or fall on someones fist. Their family and friends will get tired of housing and feeding them for free. Employers will not keep them very long. The girls or guys in their lives will use them for drugs and freebies just as they are using everybody. When nobody wants them, the school of hard knocks will have done it's job and they change.
 
 

[ECOCKS]

Wow, yeah, those selfish bitches wanna think of themselves and even have fun in things, which are not connected with bringing up children - can you imagine that?!  How can a woman, whose main purpose is to serve men and create other people have other wishes? How can they think of travelling, or developing themselves as personalities, or something else if they have a right to do that only under the condition that their primer duty will always be taking care of their men, household and children, and other minor goals can only go as a free-time hobby?!
Oh my, that's unbelievable 

Nat makes a great case for why these women should be avoided when searching for a woman to raise/start your hoped-for family. One of the common situations we see on this board is a man, often with children of his own, looking for that traditional-minded woman who will help him form a new family unit. For someone who wants only a GTG with a stronger loyalty quotient, one of those mellowing "bitches" might be ideal!

I mean I certainly didn't want one of those "selfish bitch(es)" whose only priority has been having fun until a bigger set of money bags comes along and enlarges the playing field to include a whole new part of the world, perhaps even a new hemisphere to play in. A woman who has lived that way, suddenly announcing a change in her lifestyle (based on the clues provided in your profile), has to at least be scrutinized a bit more closely to determine what precipitated this change in worldview and personal priorities.

Thanks Nat for verbalizing so well the situation from a woman's POV.

[Boethius]

I gave him Al Gore earlier, someone he respects more than hates, and showed him Al Gore can go against the grain of what he used to believe in.

Amero-centric.  Al Gore is not on the radar of most non Americans.

[Boethius]

One of the common situations we see on this board is a man, often with children of his own, looking for that traditional-minded woman who will help him form a new family unit.

A man with dependent children has to be exceptional to make such a situation work, particularly as in most cases, there is going to be a (more often than not) non cooperative ex involved.  Plus, no one thinks of the existing children in these situations. 
 
I'll also disagree with you in one respect.  I don't think a woman who wishes to better herself, in whatever way she chooses, who does not marry in her twenties (or even later), is necessarily a GTG. 

[Ade]

Amero-centric.  Al Gore is not on the radar of most non Americans.

Ain't he the guy that invented the internet?

 

I mean seriously, BillyB, what a joke, right? lol

Oh yeah, and PS FWIW; http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

[Faux Pas]

Faux, it's no surprise to anyone that you are one of the guys that got a hard on for me and follows me around but putting out bad opinions as you did to take a shot at me hurts you more than me. Since I have more kids than Ade, could you tell him to listen to me more on the subject?

Billy, again with your gross miscalculation of self worth. No one has a hard on for you or follows you around.  Seriously, you just aren't important enough for me to make the effort. I get no pleasure proving you the insecure loudmouth time after time, that you are. It's really not a big deal, not difficult to do or any feat worth mentioning. I quit posting to you on your thread after you made the same accusations there. This isn't your thread and those who do not know you, should be alerted.
 

Welfare mothers have more children on average than working mothers. I would prefer a working mother as a wife and mother to children over a welfare mother any day. Using your analogy welfare mothers would be better parents since they deal with more children and have more free time to spend with their children to help them grow.
 

What analogy Billy? Please point out my analogy? I stated you Billy, the part time dad's advice should be considered for what it's worth. He see's his 10 year old kid weekly and wishes for some to believe he has credible advice relating to teenagers? Where does your vast experience come from? Someone your sister knows with the morals of an alley cat? Please.




Nothing else you stated in your post is even worthy of a response. Just more drivel of a delusional man looking for relevance.

[Nat]

Nat makes a great case for why these women should be avoided when searching for a woman to raise/start your hoped-for family. One of the common situations we see on this board is a man, often with children of his own, looking for that traditional-minded woman who will help him form a new family unit.

You missed my point. I was trying to say that a woman is also a person, as well as a man, and she may be a good person, psychologically stable and warm-hearted and not want children at the same time. It's her body, it's her life, it's her choice. Women don't owe anything to society just because their biology allows them to have children. If it makes them happy - why now? But labelling those who don't wanna that as "selfish, selfabsorbed, with psychological and even psychiatric issues" - it's way out of line. A woman who doesn't want to preoccupy all her life with a child or household is as normal as those who do. They're just different points of view, you know
 

I mean I certainly didn't want one of those "selfish bitch(es)" whose only priority has been having fun until a bigger set of money bags comes along and enlarges the playing field to include a whole new part of the world, perhaps even a new hemisphere to play in.

What makes you think they need a money bag? Is fun only going shopping and eating out for you? Some people have fun doing things which aren't connected with money, but can't be done if there are children who take up all the time.

Thanks Nat for verbalizing so well the situation from a woman's POV.

Oh, really, nothing to thank me about You got totally wrong idea of my POV

[ECOCKS]

Well, I think you provided a very good POV which was exactly what a guy looing for a "traditionally-minded woman" would be concerned about. You actually paint the picture of exactly what the concern would be from the man's side. Well done!

[BC]

Welfare mothers have more children on average than working mothers. I would prefer a working mother as a wife and mother to children over a welfare mother any day. Using your analogy welfare mothers would be better parents since they deal with more children and have more free time to spend with their children to help them grow.

A mother is never a welfare mother.  Regardless whether I earn a dime or a million or on unemployment, the work of a mother is indeed what makes a family.  We discussed my wife working early on, she wanted to work but with two children in house and another on the way WE decided that taking care of our children was more important.

I am alone now, wife back in RU for a few weeks, but with kids and keeping things going is indeed a healthy chore. Cooking, washing, bathing, shopping, doing homework etc etc is a full time job.

I've worked at home for the last 15 years and can tell you that I have been able to spend more time with kids than I did before when I was working a 'normal' type job.  I like it, the kids like it and I am extremely happy that I can afford this type of lifestyle.

Half the battle is ensuring that a parent is available the kids.  Hard to do with parents working two, three or even four jobs to pay the rent.  - That is where I think kids started going wrong.. when parents simply do not have the time for them.

Most kids grow up just fine. Those that don't usually have the same story on how they changed after having a bad history as a young adult. They start off as rebels and users. Stealing property and money to support their drug habits and sometimes using violent means. If they're not a complete deadbeat and try to work, they are usually not productive and even steal from their employers. The girls or guys they attract are also like them, users and losers. They are angry, bitter and become Seriously Jaded(pun intended) about life. At this point no amount of love or attention will cure them.

There you are wrong.  It's a matter of how much time and effort one wants to invest to turn things around.

The older kids are, the longer the process is.  Of course there are those that simply are 'too far gone' and don't respond but that's not an excuse not to try.

Society will cure them with love but through neglect, rejection, retaliation and incarceration. These young people will change when they fall hard or fall on someones fist.

Maybe... The 'school of knocks' does work for some, but obviously many not. Kids end up in gangs, prison or whatever because either the family or society failed. 

Every baby born on earth has equal chances and potential.  It's parenting and society that must allow their potential to grow into something real.


 

[Nat]

Well, I think you provided a very good POV which was exactly what a guy looing for a "traditionally-minded woman" would be concerned about. You actually paint the picture of exactly what the concern would be from the man's side. Well done!

Well, may be you're right. The woman I painted would definitely suffer with the man you've painted Two different worlds

[Muzh]

Oh, really, nothing to thank me about You got totally wrong idea of my POV

You don't know the pregnant, bare-foot traditionally-minded woman in the US? For shame. 

[BillyB]

Amero-centric.  Al Gore is not on the radar of most non Americans.

 
What does that have to do with with what I'm saying? Even if most non Americans never heard of Al Gore, I'm not debating them. Ade, the guy I was debating, does know Al Gore.
 

I'd like to believe Europeans are smart enough to know one of the top spokesmen in the world for Global Warming, Ex vice President of USA, or at least know him as a movie star who starred in a movie about Global Warming. I sure hope they educate themselves enough to read Al Gore's name once in the news since he won a Nobel Peace Prize pertaining to Global Warming, an issue that has dominated the media for years.

 
Does anybody need any help with Obama? He's a guy who became Prez of USA and won a Nobel Peace Prize for his accomplishments too. Google can help.
 

Oh yeah, and PS FWIW; http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

You're going to send me to a study provided by an organization that is against the death penalty? They aren't telling you those States with low murder rates may actually do better if they they did install the death penalty. Some criminals actually think of the consequences of crime right before they're about to commit. It can alter their behavior. With fear of the death penalty on the table, they may actually let their victim/s live instead of die. I'm more about protecting victims right than criminals. Sorry.

 
In some countries first offense for drinking and driving is death. That puts fear into those who drink and are about to drive. Per capita those countries have less fatalities than in America. From their point of view their harsh laws is compassionate because it saves lives and bodily injury. I will side with you that those laws are too harsh for the crime but I and the inventor of the internet differ with you when the crime is murdering someone else. No matter how many expert's opinions you throw at me, I already read enough studies conducted by experts to form my conclusion. Ignorance, as you claim, has nothing to do with people that disagree with you on this subject and disciplining a child.

 

those who do not know you, should be alerted.
 

Thanks for being a hero. I want to be a hero too and when I find a person on this forum or elsewhere with more children than you, Ade, and Boethius combined who, like I, believes spanking can be an effective tool for discipline, I will have him/her come back to educate you and then I will proceed to alert the others of your inexperience since they can't comprehend to for or against arguments themselves.

 
If you don't like spanking, speak your mind but don't look for one person in this thread who has more children and compare them with another person to solve a debate. It would look like I haven't anything intelligent to debate with if I told Boethius until she has more kids like another person who of course sides with me, she doesn't know what she's talking about. Silly way to debate.

 
 Most of us have kids, some more and some less, and we have different experiences. People with less kids and can't be at home all the time can most certainly raise kids better than others with more kids. There are people who have no kids speaking on the subject of disciplining kids yet you do not jump on them because your goal is riding me. I have a strong feeling Ade has no children and although I disagree with him on raising kids, I'm not going to use the argument "shut up until you been in my shoes with the equivalent amount of kids". He's free to speak and he's free to be wrong.

 
If Obama says he can do a better job being President simply because he's been President more than his competition, I know who's writing his speeches.
 

A mother is never a welfare mother.

A mother can be on welfare. Maybe because of unfortunate circumstance or maybe because she's lazy which can translate to how she raises the kids. I can have a wife that is a homemaker or wants to work but she has to set a good example to the kids and understand that welfare is a security blanket not to be used for a lifetime of freebies.
 

There you are wrong.  It's a matter of how much time and effort one wants to invest to turn things around.

The older kids are, the longer the process is.  Of course there are those that simply are 'too far gone' and don't respond but that's not an excuse not to try.

It's okay for the parents to love their child but not their bad behavior and certainly society doesn't have to love those bad kids at all. It's not normal for us to love those that we have no emotional connection with especially if they choose the wrong path.
 
If my kids commit a crime, society is not obligated to give them a second chance. They can go straight to jail. If they are in school, they can get expelled if they bring drugs or weapons to school or steal from others. I'm all for the one offense and you're done policy. I certainly don't want my kids going into an enviroment where they forgive substance abusers and weapons violators.
 
Because I love my kids, I will give them a second chance and educate them on what they did wrong. Because I love my kids, I will kick them out if they commit the crime again so they can learn a different way that may impact them in a way I could not and to protect the rest of my family from a criminal.
 

Maybe... The 'school of knocks' does work for some, but obviously many not. Kids end up in gangs, prison or whatever because either the family or society failed. 

If the school of hard knocks doesn't work, then they will continue to have more schooling. I don't believe for every guy in prison, someone else is to blame. Family, society? Rarely. Most everybody is smart enough to understand the rules and laws and to control their own actions.
 

Every baby born on earth has equal chances and potential.  It's parenting and society that must allow their potential to grow into something real.

A brother can grow up with you. Same country, same environment and same parenting yet grow in a different direction than you, it is his personal choice. Parenting and society can't control but guide him and show him what is and isn't acceptable. Most people in developed countries do grow up with plently of opportunity to succeed. It's mostly up to the individual on what path they want to take.. If they take the wrong path and piss people off, society will then take control and force that person on another path. That is a good think IMO.
 
BC, with the bad boys out there, you can take the role of the caring, loving counselor that administers help and guidence and I'll be the citizen that can violently respond to their behavior. With all options on the table, those guys can be cured by you, me or someone else who uses approved or unapproved methods.
 

[Boethius]

What does that have to do with with what I'm saying? Even if most non Americans never heard of Al Gore, I'm not debating them. Ade, the guy I was debating, does know Al Gore.

You presented Al Gore as an example of a "leftie" who holds a "conservative" view, i.e., supporting the death penalty.
 
Most of the world is not aware of Al Gore's politics and even if they are, outside the U.S., Gore would be viewed as a centre right politician.  Compare him to someone like Canada's late Jack Layton, or Norway's Kristin Halvorsen, and he is quite to the right of centre. 
 

Some criminals actually think of the consequences of crime right before they're about to commit.

Were that true, no crimes would ever be committed.
 
This is reason enough for suspending the death penalty, or at least applying it with extremely clear criteria --
 
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
 

In some countries first offense for drinking and driving is death. That puts fear into those who drink and are about to drive.

 
Iran hangs drug users.  It hasn't stopped drug use, or drug dealing, in Iran.
 
Maybe we should emulate some of those countries  - start chopping off the hands of thieves, hanging drug dealers, stoning women who allegedly commit adultery.  That will really ensure there's no crime, and that  "good family values" are promoted .
 
 

If you don't like spanking, speak your mind but don't look for one person in this thread who has more children and compare them with another person to solve a debate

That wasn't FP's point at all.  His point was you shouldn't be telling a full time parent of teens how to raise them, since you aren't a full time parent to teens.  It had nothing to do with spanking.
 
.

[Faux Pas]

Thanks for being a hero. I want to be a hero too and when I find a person on this forum or elsewhere with more children than you, Ade, and Boethius combined who, like I, believes spanking can be an effective tool for discipline, I will have him/her come back to educate you and then I will proceed to alert the others of your inexperience since they can't comprehend to for or against arguments themselves.

You're welcome Billy. It's patently obvious that you need one. Also, please point out where I made any statement regarding Ade, Boethuis or spanking. Take your time

If you don't like spanking, speak your mind but don't look for one person in this thread who has more children and compare them with another person to solve a debate. It would look like I haven't anything intelligent to debate with if I told Boethius until she has more kids like another person who of course sides with me, she doesn't know what she's talking about. Silly way to debate.

You don't have anything intelligent to debate with Billy. You are woefully underarmed and under prepared to debate with just about anyone. Your only defense each and every time you get called on your asinine statements is who and how many "sides" with you. You lack any ability to intellectually debate with anyone. Please don't try. You only look more foolish

 
 

Most of us have kids, some more and some less, and we have different experiences. People with less kids and can't be at home all the time can most certainly raise kids better than others with more kids. There are people who have no kids speaking on the subject of disciplining kids yet you do not jump on them because your goal is riding me. I have a strong feeling Ade has no children and although I disagree with him on raising kids, I'm not going to use the argument "shut up until you been in my shoes with the equivalent amount of kids". He's free to speak and he's free to be wrong.

I have no goal that would concern you Billy. There you go overestimating your self worth again. Having a woman to act as your sperm receptacle doesn't make you a father. Seeing your children weekly or monthly while someone else raises them doesn't make you a good parent or somehow fill you with wisdom or advice on anything other than how to abandon children.


Let Ade speak for himself and please quit addressing your issue with him to me. Attempting to confuse the issue when you are called out and look like a fool is a continuing trait for you Billy. Keep them separate please or just don't respond to me

If Obama says he can do a better job being President simply because he's been President more than his competition, I know who's writing his speeches.

Again, more attempt to deflect and confuse the issue. There is no relation to Obama's presidency and the subject at hand. Your desperation is noted

[BC]

Billy,

I won't even bother quoting you.  You are gasping and grasping at straws.

I'm not here to convince or convert you, but maybe, just maybe my words will resonate with others stumbling across this thread. That's quite fine by me.

You do though make good cause for example, thus my interest.

In 20 years or so and three more kids we can have a peer to peer discussion about all this stuff.

FWIW

[Boethius]

I have a strong feeling Ade has no children

He's in an even a better position than most to judge, as Ade stated he was spanked as a child, by a father who was not otherwise abusive, and he knows the effect that had on him.
 
My father, like Ade, was spanked as a child.  He viewed it as sadistic and humiliating.  He decided he would never spank his children, and he never did.

[Muzh]

 
Maybe we should emulate some of those countries  - start chopping off the hands of thieves, hanging drug dealers, toning women who allegedly commit adultery.  That will really ensure there's no crime, and that  "good family values" are promoted .
 

 
Oooo, I'm all for toning those adulterous women. 

[Boethius]

LOL.  X post. 
 
I fixed the typo while you were posting. 
 
However, the "toning", or perhaps lack thereof when demanded, is what got them into the position of  facing "stoning" in the first place.

[Daveman]

He's in an even a better position than most to judge, as Ade stated he was spanked as a child, by a father who was not otherwise abusive, and he knows the effect that had on him.
 
My father, like Ade, was spanked as a child.  He viewed it as sadistic and humiliating.  He decided he would never spank his children, and he never did.

I had the phone numbers of a local proctologist as well as a podiatrist tattooed across the top of my ass... just in case there was some confusion if/when the foot actually broke off in there.

I never felt a need to spank either..  Even babies understand much more that they're given credit for.. I mean.. communication at an early age is of paramount importance, IMO. For example, when they'd pitch a fit about nothing, I'd just take them for a drive by the Johnson and Johnson plant and nonchalantly mention in passing "you know, this is where they make baby oil and baby powder... you just might wanna keep that in mind..."   nah, never had many problems..

[Ade]

He's in an even a better position than most to judge, as Ade stated he was spanked as a child, by a father who was not otherwise abusive, and he knows the effect that had on him.
 
My father, like Ade, was spanked as a child.  He viewed it as sadistic and humiliating.  He decided he would never spank his children, and he never did.

Yes, I think so too. Even in its mildest form it shows a loss of control. I have other reasons too even ignoring the weight of objective research, but not any I wish to share here.

But like the death penalty supporters and the one death stick gun for all vigilante advocates, objective studies mean little; it's all about righteous revenge, the false sense of security of that cold metal, and that satisfying power trip of slapping your kid and knowing you have control, or at least the illusion of it.

[I/O]

I won't even bother

After reading for a while, that's what I decided also.................