Translation Software

[r0gera]

My opinion of the electronic translation programs is that they are worthless without monitoring the back translation.

For example if I type "I love cookies" into my logotrans and have it back translate it says conveys to me that I typed "I love scones".  Not what I had intended it to say.  Without back translation I would have no idea that I loved scones.  Scones are OK but I don't like them that much.

Now the nuance is using the word love in a sentence like that.  If I am using a translator program I would probably try to avoid that by saying that "I like cookies".  The word love can have many different meanings depending on the context used in english.

Also many other words have quite different meanings.  The word kind for example could mean a nice person or could be used to describe a kind of tree.  Without a back translator you do not know which word the computer has decided best fits the sentence. 

Using proper spelling, grammar and punctuation will not help ensure that you convey the proper idea.  Another example is if I type "He was a kind and sincere man" into the translator it translates it to "It was type and sincere person".  It picked the incorrect definition of kind in the context it was used.

What I found was that using the translators we created short and incorrect sentences.  The grammar was terrible but the meanings were well understood.  Without monitoring the back translation it would appear to me that the electronic translators would be virtually worthless regardless of how correct your spelling and grammar are.

Take a more complex sentence but still simple and crank it into my translator.  "Let's go to dinner in 30 minutes."  Simple enough sentence but the word "in" has multiple meanings.   It back translates as the russian word meaning through and not the word in as I intended. 

Based on examples like these I would agree that correction based on back translation may kill grammar but would most certainly help to convey the proper meaning.  Using perfect english and grammer with these simple examples would make no difference.

In my opinion they are like dictionaries that allow you to type mutliple words to convey your thought.  However, they lack the ability for you to select the proper definition of the word to match your intended meaning.  At least the ones I have used lack that ability.   

[andrewfi]

Ok ~ If you are using a very limited toy then what do you expect to get? I was not even considering such things in my responses. But I made a quick check just for you...

The calculator style 'translators' offer a limited version of the capability of a full translator run on a PC. If one uses, for example, Promt on a PC then the phrase in your small example is translated correctly.(both ways!)

But your example does demonstrate the value of getting things right! For example, it is far from correct, or accurate usage to say that one 'loves' a food (notwithstanding that many use the words all the time!). What you really mean is that you like the foodstuff a lot. One might love a woman (or man), some might claim to love an animal, but to profess love, in seriousness, for an inanimate baked good? So, you might have been better served to have used more accurate English on your toy translator.

The tool that you used actually did a decent job with the word 'cookie'. It recognised that you were referring to a biscuit and translated it to 'kekc', an alternative translation for kekc is the english word 'scone'. If you had not meddled, your translation would have been appropriate, but the round trip confused you. Don't believe me? Look in a dictionary! *

What you thought was a shortcoming in the software, was, more accurately a reflection of your imperfect knowledge! Your shortcoming was then compounded by the shortcomings inherent in your tool.

*there are two common terms for biscuit in Russian. One is 'kekc' whch represents the soft type of baked good that is familar to the US and 'печенье' which is the hard type of biscuit familiar to Britons. A cookie is a representative of the former group and was thus translated correctly. (yes I know there are also hard cookies, but they are biscuits in the British sense of the word.) If I want to buy cookies here, I call them cookies. That is the word that is used for the semi-soft baked good familiar to those in the US.

[PeeWee]

Ok ~ If you are using a very limited toy then what do you expect to get? I was not even considering such things in my responses. But I made a quick check just for you...

The calculator style 'translators' offer a limited version of the capability of a full translator run on a PC. If one uses, for example, Promt on a PC then the phrase in your small example is translated correctly.(both ways!)

But your example does demonstrate the value of getting things right! For example, it is far from correct, or accurate usage to say that one 'loves' a food (notwithstanding that many use the words all the time!). What you really mean is that you like the foodstuff a lot. One might love a woman (or man), some might claim to love an animal, but to profess love, in seriousness, for an inanimate baked good? So, you might have been better served to have used more accurate English on your toy translator.

The tool that you used actually did a decent job with the word 'cookie'. It recognised that you were referring to a biscuit and translated it to 'kekc', an alternative translation for kekc is the english word 'scone'. If you had not meddled, your translation would have been appropriate, but the round trip confused you. Don't believe me? Look in a dictionary! *

What you thought was a shortcoming in the software, was, more accurately a reflection of your imperfect knowledge! Your shortcoming was then compounded by the shortcomings inherent in your tool.

*there are two common terms for biscuit in Russian. One is 'kekc' whch represents the soft type of baked good that is familar to the US and 'печенье' which is the hard type of biscuit familiar to Britons. A cookie is a representative of the former group and was thus translated correctly. (yes I know there are also hard cookies, but they are biscuits in the British sense of the word.) If I want to buy cookies here, I call them cookies. That is the word that is used for the semi-soft baked good familiar to those in the US.

So what you are all saying is that all of this nonsense can and will be eliminated if you avoid the translate software and find an English speaking lady. Add to that the headache I am getting from reading this massive oritation.

Peewee

[r0gera]

You miss the point again.  Using the word love in that manner is perfect in grammar, spelling and usage.  In the english language the word love has no less than 10 meanings and that was one proper usage of it.  Maybe if you took the time to look up the alternate meanings when you do not know them you would know that. (try dictionary.com definition 7... your example of loving a pet would be definition 4 by the way)

Nice try to attempt to look intelligent and authoritative and it may confuse a non english speaker but it doesn't work well with native speakers so you might as well give up on that attempt.

Logotrans is computer based translation software and has no way to know which definition I intended when I type in a common and accurate phrase like that.  It was provided as an example of the nuances in the english language that translation software can not always recognize and back translation can help detect.

A chocolate chip cookie is not similar to a biscuit nor a scone in the US so your claim that it did a good job is rather odd.  The back translation accurately signalled to me that the sentence did not convey the meaning intended and allows me to correct. 

 

[Ste]

The best translation software is a girl that speaks fluent English.

Ste

[PeeWee]

The best translation software is a girl that speaks fluent English.

Ste

That is what I said above. Cut the crap and find an English speaking lady. One less problem eliminated and one that can cause more problems for you because she does not understand English. Problem begets more problems.

Peewee

[Ste]

You did PeeWee!

I didn't read all of the thread, my bad.....

sorry mate!

Ste

[PeeWee]

You did PeeWee!

I didn't read all of the thread, my bad.....

sorry mate!

Ste

Not the problem. I was just saying that to agree with you.

Peewee

[dwfunk]

You wrote 'Good and proper English will never translate properly in a machine translator.  Good and proper English only works with a very skilled Interrupter/Translator, a human skilled and trained in both languages' Those words when you reread them will probably cause your face to redden in embarrassment! But such confusion probably further illustrates your problems. The ONLY type of English that can be translated by software is 'Good and proper English'! A human can, by dint of the application of intelligence, inference and context fill in the blanks left by your errors. Software can not do this at all.

sigh, ok, I guess you speak a different English.  Please tell me where I can find it so that my machine translations will come out "perfect".   I'm not embarrassed nor red faced by what I said.  I stand by my statements.

You have actually made my point.


--
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow, Russia
http://www.davidandnataliafunk.org/
http://www.russianwomanwiki.net/

.

[dwfunk]

[user=683]r0gera[/user] wrote:

A chocolate chip cookie is not similar to a biscuit nor a scone in the US so your claim that it did a good job is rather odd.  The back translation accurately signalled to me that the sentence did not convey the meaning intended and allows me to correct. 

You are absolutely correct.  It is what I have been trying to say all along.  A chocolate chip cookie IS correct and proper English.  It is also NOT a biscuit nor a scone.  I have not improperly used a word, I have not misunderstood the "nuance".  So,in an effort to describe a chocolate cookie I will have to create "errors", yeah right, however, I will have to deliberately use simpler sentences, choose different words, and will have to mangle the grammar as referenced to "Proper English". 

The idea is to communicate thoughts and ideas.  The tools are imperfect, and you have to make adjustments to get the desired effects.



--
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow, Russia
http://www.davidandnataliafunk.org/
http://www.russianwomanwiki.net/

.

[Taz]

The key to any translation program is to use words that have very distinct meanings and can't be confused with other words based on the context. The more single-purpose the word is the more accurately it can be translated as the program doesn’t have to try and figure out the context of the word to determine its meaning. Words such as “like” are very hard to translate.

When I was first learning Russian I found that if I carefully chose my words I could write very nuanced sentences that would still retain the nuances even in Russian. Later as I learned more Russian I found that I could be more effective using a translator which to some extent defeated the purpose of using one. It did speed up correspondence though as I could write much faster in English than Russian.

As mentioned before do a reverse translation of what you wrote and you will have a better idea of what the person who will receive your translation will receive. Since I now speak, read and write pretty good Russian I find that I use a good electronic dictionary to help such as Abbyy Lingvo. I have still found that Promt Professional Office is far and away the best machine translation program.

[Stirlitz]

Why is translation software bad? Read the answer here.

That is what I said above. Cut the crap and find an English speaking lady. One less problem eliminated and one that can cause more problems for you because she does not understand English. Problem begets more problems.

Why not go further? Find a girl who lives next door. Not only will she speak English for sure but also you do not need to travel anywhere!

[Turboguy]

Nice to see you back Sterlitz.   You know the answer to that.  Because the girl next door is fat, not very pretty and tries to run the show.  I agree with you though.  Sometimes you can't have everything and to me language is just something that makes it a little more challenging and interesting.   On PeeWee's side there are nice gals there who speak English and if someone is not up for the challenge they should limit thier searches to English speaking girls.   If they are up for it they have a wider range of gals to choose from.

[BC]

On PeeWee's side there are nice gals there who speak English and if someone is not up for the challenge they should limit thier searches to English speaking girls.   If they are up for it they have a wider range of gals to choose from.

The true challenge would be to learn Russian well enough first.  This is the first relationship in a looong time where our primary language is English (at least for now).

[Turboguy]

I hope if they go that route they learn faster than I do.  I have been studying Russian for 10 years on and off and still don't know jack.  I may get some real practice when I go to Novisbirsk in two weeks.  It looks like Russian is going to be our language of communication.  That gal knows as much English as I do Swaheli and she is planning to rely on an electronic translator which I have discovered in my previous attemts is about worthless. 

[Stirlitz]

if someone is not up for the challenge they should limit thier searches to English speaking girls.

Well, the funny thing is it is not actually clear what is more challenging — finding English-speaking girls or dealing with language issues.

The trouble is when you limit yourself to girls who only speak English you boost the percentage of scammers and professional daters in your pool since those ‘guys’ (ok, gals) do speak English quite well — this is their tool (like mine) which generates income for them.

Not to mention that you have to be more competitive and really stand out as English-speaking girls are usually the ones who think very high of themselves, are more successful and will screen you more critically. They usually have good jobs and you have to struggle hard to impress them.

[tim 360]

Myself,  I have found the internet/computer translators lacking in many respects.  Too many.  And a waste of my time.  If the true purpose is to have good communication then there is nothing which beats a skilled human translator.  Yes,  maybe it will cost a couple bucks but the communication is very clear and saves one time.  Cheerio,Tim360

[catzenmouse]

Myself,  I have found the internet/computer translators lacking in many respects.  Too many.  And a waste of my time.  If the true purpose is to have good communication then there is nothing which beats a skilled human translator.  Yes,  maybe it will cost a couple bucks but the communication is very clear and saves one time.  Cheerio,Tim360

No doubt about that Tim. The problem is finding a good one who does not have their own agenda.

Ken

[Stirlitz]

Man, ain’t that easy: screen off dating agencies and find some third party: if you find them on your own and they are in no way associated with the agency your g/f uses, how can they have an agenda.

As for finding a good one at that, it is another story, but not a problem either I believe.

[catzenmouse]

How about giving us some information on what to do? This would be very beneficial for newbies to know.

Scenario:
 John Customer has been writing to a few girls and is going to meet them in CityName, Ukraine. He has never been to the FSU before and does not speak the language. He is not very worldly so does not know about places like RWD.

 Aside from the agency he has been dealing with how does he go about finding a good translator who is not an agency shill?

Ken

[Stirlitz]

Why doesn’t he just google up ‘freelance Russian translator CityName’, for example? Or ‘independent interpreter in CityName’, or whatever is relevant. I think that chances of coming across his particular agency shills are very low.

If he does not know about Google either, gimme a break. I have no suggestions. Perhaps he doesn’t even know about the Internet? How did he hook up with that agency then? At the very least he can ask his more Internet-savvy friends how to find a translator in a certain town.

There is a thread on RWG named ‘Google is your best friend’ in the Scammers section. I think the name explains all.

[catzenmouse]

The first two are good ideas and useful to those who might need it. Just trying to get some information that you might be privy to like an association or the search parameters you mentioned.

No need for the attitude. Since you are a translator I thought you might have some tips.

Ken

[Vaughn]

 Ken, he could also search discussion boards particular to that
city and pop the question - there's a great one in Y-O that I
recommend often. She's independent of any agency - she
does rent out a flat very reasonably, will courier flowers, etc.
But she's uninvolved in any introductions - interpreting is her
mainstay.

[catzenmouse]

Thanks Vaughn,

 There is no "he" that I know. Just looking for input for those who may need this kind of service. With a good agenda free translator there is a much better chance for some real communication between the couple without the limitations of hand held devices. Have you put your information into the Wiki? Would be good to do so if you haven't already.

Ken

[Vaughn]

The Wiki? Let me tell you, last Sunday I was up in Asheville with
my daughter Mackenzie. I did stop at one of two Russian stores in
the area. A day later, I went to submit the new info in Wiki, and
found my prior submittals had been deleted. I'm holding off on
Wiki entries for the time being...