What makes the FSU so interesting?

[SANDRO43]

While retired Adm. John Nathman, a former commander of Fleet Forces Command, was on stage to honour American men and women in uniform, the screen behind him was filled with the sight of battleships.He couldn't see the screen but those at the convention and television viewers could. The battleships displayed were Russian.

Freudian slip, proving that US Democrats are just thinly-disguised Communists .

[Eduard]

It will be interesting to see if there is any reaction over the DNC convention's use of Russian battleship photos. While retired Adm. John Nathman, a former commander of Fleet Forces Command, was on stage to honour American men and women in uniform, the screen behind him was filled with the sight of battleships.

He couldn't see the screen but those at the convention and television viewers could. The battleships displayed were Russian.

http://www.navytimes.com/mobile/news/2012/09/navy-russian-warships-displayed-dnc-veterans-tribute-091112

LOL, that is too funny!

[mendeleyev]

In today's Mendeleyev Journal...

It is becoming almost like a game to spot the number and variety of McDonald's knockoffs in Russia and Ukraine. This little place is one of several businesses located on the first floor of an apartment building, a common arrangement in this part of the world.



McDonald's in the Cyrillic alphabet is spelled as Макдональдс but this knockoff uses the trademark M upside down, resembling the Cyrillic letter ш (sounded as "sh") to form the Russian word for "your" which is spelled Baш and sounds like "vash."  There is no "h" sound in the Cyrillic so often "g" is substituted which means that hamburger is pronounced as gamburger (accented as "gham-burger") or going the theatre to enjoy Hamlet means you're going to the theatre for Gamlet. You get the idea.

"Ваш гамбургер"or "Your Ghamburger" is the name of this knockoff. It must be good as the sign also advertises Вкусное качество (tasty/delicious quality).  We haven't even stepped inside and already "I'm loving it."

So, if you're ever in Moscow and want to see it for yourself, the town is Kovrov (Ковров) a few hours away in the Vladimir region near the start of Moscow's famous "Golden Ring."
                 

[Eduard]

There is no "h" sound in the Cyrillic

Sorry Jim, I have to disagree with this one. English H = Russian X
It is pronounced a bit harsher in Russian language but still it's the same sound.
i.e. Хорошо = Horosho

[Hammer2722]

Also as in cold = Holodna

[SANDRO43]

I've always wondered why an initial H in foreign names is transliterated as a G in Russian - for instance, would not ХИТЛЕР sound closer to the original than ГИТЛЕР, although that H is soundless in German ?

[Gator]

In today's Mendeleyev Journal...

It is becoming almost like a game to spot the number and variety of McDonald's knockoffs in Russia and Ukraine.

I have seen other versions elsewhere.  I have never compared them by sampling the food because the standard MickeyD's hamburger in Russia is bad enough with its truckload of mayonnaise (Russian tastes).
What recourse does McDonald's have in Russia for trademark infringement?

[ML]

I've always wondered why an initial H in foreign names is transliterated as a G in Russian - for instance, would not ХИТЛЕР sound closer to the original than ГИТЛЕР, although that H is soundless in German ?

Yes, that G, H thing bugs me, as does the I, E

Harold   Garold

Erina      Irina

[Hammer2722]

Yes, that G, H thing bugs me, as does the I, E

Harold   Garold

Erina      Irina

Many of the the FSU Ladies I corresponded with always pronounced my name as Gector instead of Hector. I finally got my girl Lena to pronounce my name correctly. LOL

[Eduard]

I've always wondered why an initial H in foreign names is transliterated as a G in Russian - for instance, would not ХИТЛЕР sound closer to the original than ГИТЛЕР, although that H is soundless in German ?

I have no idea, but after thinking about it I can think of one explanation. The person in charge of making those adoptations to Russian might have been originally from Ukraine. Ukrainians pronounce the letter "G" different from Russians even when they speak Russian all their lives at home. It's just part of the "accent" you can say. The way Ukrainians pronounce "G" is closer to H but it's more like a combination of G and H. So it is reasonable to suggest that maybe since for a Ukrainian H is pronounced very similar to G they just put G in   ГИТЛЕР and other words that start with H.
But I'm just guessing off course.

[nicknick]

Sorry Jim, I have to disagree with this one. English H = Russian X
It is pronounced a bit harsher in Russian language but still it's the same sound.
i.e. Хорошо = Horosho

As much as I don't like to disagree with a native Russian speaker, I would tend to agree with Mendy that ''h'' isn't really the same sound as ''х'' - although it is similar.


In the same way, I would also say that there is no English equivalent of the Russian letter ''ы''.  There are similar sounds in English but there is no direct equivalent of that sound in English.


So, I would say that ''х'' is similar to ''h'' but it is not a direct equivalent.


Similarly, there is no real direct equivalent of ''x'' in standard English.  Although you can hear the sound in some dialects, notably the Scouse accent that you hear in Liverpool.  Although in that case the ''x'' sound is actually used for the letter ''k'' rather than the letter ''h''.

[Daveman]

As much as I don't like to disagree with a native Russian speaker, I would tend to agree with Mendy that ''h'' isn't really the same sound as ''х'' - although it is similar.
...

I agree, not really close save for both sounds are produced by the mouth.  The Russian/Ukrainian 'X' sound reminds me of the sound when hacking (gacking for Ukrainians) up a loogie, only slightly softer.


Speaking of that g sound for h... I remember my first trip to Ukraine.  I met the lady's brother and mother and during the obligatory conversation about what the lady had shown me around Odessa transpired.  The catacombs along with some other WWII sites were mentioned.  I was trying my best to understand who/what/where was this "Geetlair" thing everyone was talking about.  They gave me the strangest look when I finally asked "What's a Geetlair"..   live and learn...

[mendeleyev]

The x is more of a "kh" sound even for хорошо, but in Russia the most common usage is converted to "g" otherwise we'd have "KHamburger" or "KHamlet" etc.

As one PM pointed out, in Ukrainian there is more of an h sound in some instances. I can think of one immediately when you compare the phrase "Lord have mercy" in a Russian church versus Ukrainian church the "gospdi" versus "hospdi" is a good example.

[SANDRO43]

I have no idea, but after thinking about it I can think of one explanation. The person in charge of making those adAptations to Russian might have been originally from Ukraine. Ukrainians pronounce the letter "G" different from Russians even when they speak Russian all their lives at home. It's just part of the "accent" you can say. The way Ukrainians pronounce "G" is closer to H but it's more like a combination of G and H. So it is reasonable to suggest that maybe since for a Ukrainian H is pronounced very similar to G they just put G in ГИТЛЕР and other words that start with H. But I'm just guessing of course.

Thanks Eduard, that sounds at least plausible. So a bunch of Ukrainians would be ultimately responsible - I doubt a single person was entrusted with the entire transliteration task . Can you provide a break-down by native region of publishers' editors in Imperial Russian times ?

As much as I don't like to disagree with a native Russian speaker, I would tend to agree with Mendy that ''h'' isn't really the same sound as ''х'' - although it is similar.

Well, we would need to use a speech analyzer and study its phonetic spectrogram to solve the matter with some satisfaction - subjective acoustic impressions can be misleading .
 

Spectrogram for "buy"

In the same way, I would also say that there is no English equivalent of the Russian letter ''ы''.

Nor is there in any other language I have some acquaintance with. Other Slavic languages maybe?

Similarly, there is no real direct equivalent of ''x'' in standard English.  Although you can hear the sound in some dialects, notably the Scouse accent that you hear in Liverpool.  Although in that case the ''x'' sound is actually used for the letter ''k'' rather than the letter ''h''.

Could you please provide an example? I had for a short time a Liverpudlian manager when I was working in London, and can only remember that his accented Us sounded like short OOs (e.g. must -> moost).

[ML]

I agree, not really close save for both sounds are produced by the mouth.  The Russian/Ukrainian 'X' sound reminds me of the sound when hacking (gacking for Ukrainians) up a loogie, only slightly softer.


Speaking of that g sound for h... I remember my first trip to Ukraine.  I met the lady's brother and mother and during the obligatory conversation about what the lady had shown me around Odessa transpired.  The catacombs along with some other WWII sites were mentioned.  I was trying my best to understand who/what/where was this "Geetlair" thing everyone was talking about.  They gave me the strangest look when I finally asked "What's a Geetlair"..   live and learn...

Yes, I love it when my Gal talks about charcoaling 'gomburgers.'

[ghost of moon goddess]

I've always wondered why an initial H in foreign names is transliterated as a G in Russian ...

The answer is Old-Russian influence in current Russian transliterations !
The old Russian "Latin H - Russian Г" transliterations were quite reasonable, because  the letter  Г (it was a fricative consonant at that time) pretty much resembled the sound of H and, therefore, was used to denote Latin H.

FYI :
Although the modern pronunciation norms of the Russian literary language dictate that the letter  Г (a plosive consonant) may only represent the sound of "Ge",  some  dialects  spoken in southern Russian regions located along the borders of Ukraine and Belarus pronounce the letter Г as [γ] or [ĥ] - the two sound pretty much alike, with the latter having the same "origin" as the sound of the unvoiced consonant H in "Help", "Hand", etc

Ukrainians pronounce the letter "G" different from Russians even when they speak Russian all their lives at home. It's just part of the "accent" you can say. The way Ukrainians pronounce "G" is closer to H but it's more like a combination of G and H.

 

In the early nineties, the letter Г (it is pronounced as [ɦ] ) was reintroduced into the Ukrainian alphabet.  Also, we have the letter Ґ (Г  with upturn) representing the sound of a plosive «Ge»,  it is always used in transliterations to denote Latin G.

Yes, I love it when my Gal talks about charcoaling 'gomburgers.'

 

Phonetic/pronunciation exercise:
Write down the following words:
1) full, pull
2) fool, pool
Ask your Gal to read them.

I wonder if she pronounces the words in these two groups with a different vowel sound?

[Eduard]

Who knows, you guys might be right and there is no "H" (X) sound in Russian language.
I'll just use your logic and say that there is no "B" (Б) sound in Russian language either, since "Libya"(Ливия) is pronounced as "Lee-vee-ya" in Russian 

[Ranetka]

Who knows, you guys might be right and there is no "H" (X) sound in Russian language.
I'll just use your logic and say that there is no "B" (Б) sound in Russian language either, since "Libya"(Ливия) is pronounced as "Lee-vee-ya" in Russian 

I wonder how Libya sounds in Arabic. I doubt it's LIh-bee-uh. 

[Gator]

I wonder how Libya sounds in Arabic. I doubt it's LIh-bee-uh. 

Its very close.  Egypt is an European name I guess because Egyptians call their country something like "mosr." 
 
When in Iran I was amazed how many Americans called it I- Ran vs. eeh-ron.  It was really awful to the ears of Iranians if the speaker had a southern accent and placed annunciation on the second syllable.
 
The Arabic kh and gh sounds are difficult for Americans.
 
 

[SANDRO43]

The answer is Old-Russian influence in current Russian transliterations ! The old Russian "Latin H - Russian Г" transliterations were quite reasonable, because  the letter  Г (it was a fricative consonant at that time) pretty much resembled the sound of H and, therefore, was used to denote Latin H.

Thanks GoMG, that sounds even more convincing than Eduard's Ukrainian conspiracy .

[ML]

When in Iran I was amazed how many Americans called it I- Ran vs. eeh-ron.

Yes, but this is not the fault of the non-native speakers, whether they be Americans or any others.

It is the fault of the native officials or academics who dictated how the native language characters would be presented when transcribed into English letters.

If the country wanted its name to be pronounced as  Eeh-ron . . . then it should have spelled it that way rather than Iran.

Similar to how the Russian names are presented in English as Irina, Ivan, etc., rather than as Ereena, Evon, etc.
Russian officials have controlled how these names are spelled in English, so they are to blame for the mispronunciation.

[SANDRO43]

I wonder how Libya sounds in Arabic. I doubt it's LIh-bee-uh. 

Libya in Arabic: ‏ليبيا‎ (Lee-bee-AA)

Egypt is an European name I guess, because Egyptians call their country something like "mosr."

Egypt in Arabic: مصر‎ (Miṣr)
The name Egypt is older than the Arabic one and comes to us from Greek Αἴγυπτος, derived from Late Egyptian Hikuptah (Memphis), a corruption of the earlier Egyptian name Hwt-ka-Ptah meaning "Home of the ka (soul) of Ptah", the name of a temple to the god Ptah at Memphis.

Hwt-ka-Ptah (Ht-ka-Ptah, or Hout-ak Ptah)

The Arabic kh and gh sounds are difficult for Americans.

Arabic is very accurate in its spelling: 28 letters including 3 long vowels (A,I,U). The pronunciation of the short variants of the 3 vowels (usually omitted in writing) varies locally: A can be E, U can be O, etc.  Misr is pronounced Mɑsr in Egyptian Arabic.

Ancient Egyptians referred to their country not as a single but as two distinct countries:

Kemet (Kermit), or simply Kmt,  the Black land: the rich soil found in the Nile Valley and Delta
Deshret, or dshrt , which refers to the "Red Land": the deserts

Our European words for desert probably derive from the latter. What we call the Sahara Desert is in Arabic الصحراء الكبرى (Aṣ-Ṣaḥrā´ al-Kubrā, i.e. "The Desert The Great"), which sounds funny to Arabic speakers who know some English because to them is equivalent to Desert Desert, a needless redundancy .

[OlgaH]

[Olly]

MY GOD!!!!!

[Eduard]

Thank you, Olya! I had a good laugh! A very unexpected ending! Wow!