Starting Out?

[spectris]

Yeah, it’s been awhile since I posted – glad to see you guys are all still here!

Starting Out
Hmmmm, I think that this deserves more thought than it probably gets most of the time.  I think the first question you should ask yourself is, “why am I doing this?”.  For me, I’ve been to Ukraine 5 times now in the past 2 years and I have to be honest I guess in saying that apparently I didn’t know for sure what I was looking for.  What I DO know is that it is truly different there (good or bad depending on your perspective) and your decision to even attempt this should be well thought out.  Why are you going?  Do you want a life partner, a date, or a vacation?  I have to be honest with myself and say I don’t really know I guess.  I’ve met some of the most amazing, beautiful, intelligent, self-confident women in my life there, yet I’ve done nothing about it at the end of the day.  But believe me, it’s not like dating in your country (USA for me), you are making a commitment very quickly w/ a UW if you show the slightest bit of interest you have an issue – it is not like any kind of dating you’ve ever done before. 

My problem or dilemma is that I feel like I’m teasing or miss-leading every woman I’ve ever been out with there.  Life is so different for UW women, but the over-riding takeaway I have is that they all want to leave and I don’t blame them.  Ukraine is looking at decades of struggle, poverty, challenges, whatever you want to call it and the women there are very well educated and know it and they want something better for themselves and their families.  I’ve had dozens of conversations and dates with women there and yes, they all have large families and more friends than anyone reading this – but they are destined to live in day to day struggles that will probably end badly for them.  It’s ironic in some ways that I envy the close relationships they have(by necessity, but...) w/ their extended families and friends, it’s definitely not my life experience, but I wish it was.  Read what you want in their profiles (nature, dancing, etc.), but socializing with family and friends is about 95% of their social life and its great – but not something that is prevalent in the US at least any more in my experience.  I’ve taken many women out to dinner over there and most have not eaten in a restaurant in a month or even a year – trust me, it’s just different there.  And that’s in Kiev – the couple of times I’ve been to smaller cities it was even more eye-opening.

And you know what the primary reason for divorce is there?  It’s not being able to tolerate a LAZY man.  Many of the men in their culture are LAZY by nature or culture now I suppose (generalizing here for sure, I’m sure many are not, but the limitation of opportunity kills off the alpha male thing) and being LAZY is the primary cause of divorce – at least with my sample of say 18-20 women.  The UW wife will tolerate drunks, verbal abuse, being beaten even – but they will not tolerate LAZY.  And I have to say that I really admire them for that btw – AW will tolerate LAZY with no problem seemingly – which leads to a mutual and quick decline in many relationships, but UW who have the guts or means to divorce  will absolutely not tolerate it.  And if they are strong enough to initiate that, then they are strong enough to withstand anything you throw at them, so be careful what you ask for (you get love, loyalty, obedience even, but you are going to get opinions – and they will probably be more intelligent than yours).  Again, I admire them hugely for that, but it puts pressure on us (men) to be serious w/ our intentions – they don’t like frivolity (read: screwing around) - their life/situation is serious and so are they.

Herein lies my problem – I’ve met at least 10 women in my last 4 trips that would be excellent (spectacular?) partners.  Smart (smart is too mild of a word btw), attractive (and 20+ years younger than me – my issue, no reason to flame me) and anxious for a better life.  Sooooo, take them out a couple or 3 times and show any interest and you have created a relationship in their eyes at least.  I mean how many foreign men do they really meet (none to VERY few or so is the average from my experience), so YOU are going to be put in the position of being the knight in shining armor or the ass depending on how it works out.  Maybe I’m just too sensitive, but if there is even a spark of chemistry with a woman, breaking it off is disheartening – no matter how respectful and kind you are, you kill off something in them that we can’t fully understand.  Maybe hope?
 
Anyway, in my experience, I have to say that time and distance are fickle bitches – no matter how hard you try, you just don’t get enough time to date in the traditional way and a mistake doing it this way has huge consequences – certainly nothing to be taken lightly.   

So, if you are “Starting Out”, I would say take a moment and make sure you are serious about this – it’s a surety you can find someone, but it’s not like finding someone in your city or even country – time and distance make this a tough proposition.

Not sure what the point of this is, but it gives me pause on deciding whether I should go back or not...

[Globetrotter]

Well written, and so true.  If you're not ready to commit should you find a perfect mate, don't go till you are.  It's a rather expensive date...don't ya think?
 
I always said I would wait till I met my best friend with whom we connect on every level, and I may have found her.  Very educated and very smart (two very different things) and quite amazing in every way.  We've known each other for over a year, have met 5 times...twice in Europe, Russia, and twice here.  She's met all my friends, family, neighbors. likes it here and where and how I live.  So far all good and no surprises for either of us.  I'll wait another year, just as I would if I were dating someone from here.
 
I've also had several relationships with FSU girls over a few years, and it didn't feel right for different reasons.  It does now.
 
When you love, trust and respect each other...that's a good place.  When you're in love, that's a very different place.  She's not 20 years younger, but only 4 years difference, as I want to be with someone I can relate to, grew up in the same time and have lots in common with.  Anyway, each to their own unless it becomes rediculous.
 
We Skype at least once per day, and have sent over 1000 emails.  My trust level has never been higher. 
 
You and only you know what is best for you and your comfort level, and when you arrive there, I think you'll know.  Best of luck!

[BillyB]

And you know what the primary reason for divorce is there?  It’s not being able to tolerate a LAZY man.  Many of the men in their culture are LAZY by nature or culture now I suppose (generalizing here for sure, I’m sure many are not, but the limitation of opportunity kills off the alpha male thing) and being LAZY is the primary cause of divorce – at least with my sample of say 18-20 women.
 

 
I've heard a lot of the same thing. A man being lazy translates to he's not a good financial provider and the home is in need of serious repair.
 
 
 

Maybe I’m just too sensitive, but if there is even a spark of chemistry with a woman, breaking it off is disheartening – no matter how respectful and kind you are, you kill off something in them that we can’t fully understand. Maybe hope?

 
Don't let it bother you. RW can break it off with a man in a moments notice, not shedding a tear and never looking back. You have to look at the big picture and if any one of the ladies you're dating aren't right for you, you have to move on and find what's best for your life. To help prevent emotions from building up too fast, let the ladies know you're dating as friends first.
 
 
One RW I dated at home started to have serious feelings for me on the second date. I sensed this and told her I'm the kind of man that won't commit that fast and I can't promise her I'll ever commit if I feel we aren't compatible. She respected my words and told me "I understand. The clever man never makes a decision to marry quickly." Always be honest with the ladies you date and you should never feel guilty when it's time to say goodbye.

[Steamer]

My problem or dilemma is that I feel like I’m teasing or miss-leading every woman I’ve ever been out with there.

Then don't "boink" them unless you're serious. Sex suggests a certain level of commitment or at least exclusivity (to my mind anyway). That way if things don't work out you can walk away with no regrets or remorse.

[Vincenzo]

Don't trust women when they tell about exes.
Girls and boys in the Ukraine marry very early. I know a 35-year-old Russian woman here, and her daughter goes to college.

What do you expect from a 20-year-old just-married boy in the Ukraine? He is called LAZY because he doesn't earn enough money. Have you seen attractive female profiles on American dating websites? "LAZY men who earn less than $100,000 don't write to me!"

Don't fool yourself. You came home with empty hands because 20-year-old girls hadn't expressed any feelings towards you. When a woman loves a man, she'll use her charm to keep him.

Many Russian women cook better than chefs at restaurants. Why would they go to restaurants often? When a Russian woman likes you, she invites you home to dinner and cooks herself.

[Muzh]

That was a really strange post.
 
Spectris, you mind elaborating a bit further? I'm not sure if you are having remorseful feelings of breaking up with 18-20 yo girls.
 
It's been my experience that the ladies that want to leave are the very young materialistic girls that were born after the collapse of the former Soyuz and all they know is amassing material things.
 
The other crowd (30-40) definitely want a better life. Who wouldn't but, not at the expense of leaving behind everything they know. There has to be an exceptional reason for them to consider leaving their country.
 
Mind talking a bit more?

[mendeleyev]

In full agreement with Muzh as he has finely articulated the difference in motivation when comparing the various age groups. Flame you or not, the age difference is a very important factor, not just something you prefer.

No, it is not accurate that they all want to leave. For most of the mature (not talking age) ladies, leaving is one of the hardest things she will ever consider. But many will do so for love.

Sooooo, take them out a couple or 3 times and show any interest and you have created a relationship in their eyes at least.

Without over generalizing, many of these ladies have been brought up with some form or another of courtship, as opposed to "dating" like in the West. Others have not.

For those who have, a courtship by its very nature is exclusive even at the beginning stages. My youngest is again in a courtship with a new(er) young man. The idea is that she and he will spent time together, go places together, spent time with both families often, and even while not yet "serious" about each other, they don't carry on multiple courtships. It is exclusive until one or both either decide that this is not the right recipe for marriage, or they continue forward to an eventual marriage proposal.

I don't know the girls you've "dated" but can tell you that in some cases perhaps, you may have tried to "fit a square peg into a round hole," in thinking you were going on a date when she thought it was the beginning of a courtship. Especially if you have begun the relationship on line and then go visit, a girl has a realistic expectation that you've come to build on that relationship and see where it goes.

Again, some go by these traditions and others don't. For some, "dating" can be a newer concept to certain ladies and sometimes it is difficult for us to remember that Ukraine or Russia isn't Kansas.

[alex330]

I understood that Spectris meant he had dated or spoken to 18-20 women on the relevant matter, not dated 18-20 year olds.

Women generally seek out a man who can provide but I will have to agree that a laziness does seem to be frowned on much more in the FSU than in the West from my experience.

I am aware of younger women who are more willing to jump ship hoping the grass is greener on the other side. I have a feeling some of these younger women may be a bit more materialistic and arrive to find that things are not as they imagined. Not all younger women fit the profile though, and it takes a lot of thought and courage to leave everything they know.

[Faux Pas]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here spectris but, I believe he mentioned women 18-20 years younger?


Spectris, you do not seem to be finding what you are looking for in a woman. Perhaps your little head is telling you one thing and the big head is telling you something different? 4-5 trips, dating 18-20 different women, you either are not doing serious communication and due diligence or you are not looking for a woman with wife potential.


Something to keep in mind, dating women in the FSU is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. Especially, the younger ones when you trot over with a fist full of cash. They are everywhere and most of them centerfold quality in appearance. Finding one to marry and become your wife is more akin to panning for gold. They are there but it takes commitment and hard work to find the blinding nugget.


I don't know Ukraine but I do know Russia and I can state emphatically, Most even the younger ones, while easy to date are not looking to pack up and go with the first westerner with a flashy smile and endless promises.


Spectris, there are a number of requirements before getting one to the finish line. Those requirements go well beyond the dating stage. You have to be ready for a relationship and pulling the trigger on having one, later does the pulling the trigger on marriage happen. If you are going to Ukraine for the purpose of wife shopping, you probably won't find one. Re-examine your approach and your priorities.


FWIW

[GQBlues]

....Anyway, in my experience, I have to say that time and distance are fickle bitches – no matter how hard you try, you just don’t get enough time to date in the traditional way and a mistake doing it this way has huge consequences – certainly nothing to be taken lightly.   

So, if you are “Starting Out”, I would say take a moment and make sure you are serious about this – it’s a surety you can find someone, but it’s not like finding someone in your city or even country – time and distance make this a tough proposition.

Not sure what the point of this is, but it gives me pause on deciding whether I should go back or not...

Well Spectris, based on the statement above, you are a far better man that I've previously given you credit for. Well done!

[spectris]

OK, yeah good God, they were 20 years YOUNGER than me - NOT 20 years old .  Hey, my daughter is 16 - no way am I dating (or have the slightest bit of interest in) 18-20 year olds!  All the women I've been out with in Kiev were in there 30's and all have at least one child.  I have no interest or ability to have a baby and for sure I think you should be up-front about that from Day 1.  ADVICE from an old married more than once guy - ALL women in their 20's and at least early 30's are going to go through a period of their life where they at least think they want a baby - read that again and committ it to memory beause it is an absolute fact and often a deal-breaker at some point.  I'm not saying - I'm just saying...
So, again - not even sure why I posted this in the first place, but I have learned a lot about myself doing this - do I want to get married again (not sure), are FSU women really different than AW (OMG yes), do I like Ukraine (yes), etc.
I guess I'm just telling any of the new "Starting Out" lurkers that you really should think about this.  It's absolutely doable, but its expensive, its hugely time consuming and is nothing like dating a woman in your locale.  These women are very intellegent, hugely independent and shouldn't be treated lightly (read - you should be serious, because it IS serious for them) and well, just think this through and make sure you want what you want.  Are you willing to put in the time and $$ and effort to really get to know someone 5k miles away?  Remember, if you make some committment - it's a HUGE deal for them.
With all that said, if I ever truly grow up and want to be serious, I'll be on the next SwissAir (direct from DFW to Kiev) flight back! 
And hey, GQBlues likes me better now...

[Muzh]

Hi Spectris, thanks for clarifying.
 
Unsolicited advice; if you are on the dating scene with these thirtysomething ladies, you may want to say upfront what are your views in having more children.
 
Just saying, good luck, and enjoy.