Advice sought

[Misha]

A philosophy of guilty until proven innocent?   My attitude when dating RW was different.

When you are at the early stages of a relationship, all questionable behaviour should be examine under a microscope and should not be easily written off. A great many train wrecks would have been avoided were this the case 

[BC]

It was my hope that she now the second time we met that she at least would introduce me to her son, but I don't think I should ask her about such things - I would expect that she did her by herself.

Jim,

If I am correct you are now planning your third trip.  In itself that's great, but is time that you be invited to meet family and friends...

Thus far, you have not violated any of the Ten Commandments.  Yes you sent money to a women you met so nothing wrong with that.  It's the 7th and 9th you have to be wary of IMHO..

Be yourself and date as you would at home.....  In other words you have to be able to express your limits both emotionally and financially..  This is where many go wrong.  If you have financial limits, do feel free to say 'Sorry, but I can't afford it!'.  If you start to feel as if you are swimming upstream emotionally, simply say so.

Be bold.

[Misha]

And she never asked me for the 7000 Dollars for help to the broken arm. She told me she would ask for help for this broken arm at her ex-husband (the father of the son) and her ex-husband no. 2.

How many ex-husbands does she have? I would say that she was trying to guilt you into paying, calling upon your pride to say no, don't go to ex number 2 as I will send you the money 

[BC]

How many ex-husbands does she have? I would say that she was trying to guilt you into paying, calling upon your pride to say no, don't go to ex number 2 as I will send you the money 

Maybe under our moniker it should be mandatory to show the number of marriages or fiancees?

LOL

sounds a bit like throwing stones while living in glass houses..

[Jim]

She lives in a town 275 km from Kiev and her first husband went there for a job and there he meet another woman.

The second husband was a control freak and didn't want her to be together with her friends and in the end he didn't want her to work. But she have told me that is she have problems with money she can call him and of course I wonder why a ex-husband will give her money because he knows that their relationship.

But in general I trust her.

[Gator]

Jim,
 
Please forgive my comment about lingerie and underwear.  I did not realize you were Swedish.  Imagine if I had to write in Swedish.   
 
Thanks for the clarification abut the son.  The son exists.   Also, your woman did not ask you for money for her son's broken arm.  She expects to get some help from the son's father.  Ask her to confirm the amount (in hrn as the amount should be $700).    If she again says $7000 she could be setting you up for the future because that amount is much too large and few UM fathers would pay.
 
Regarding money, tell her you need to save your money to pay the future costs of moving her to Sweden and helping her adjust.   Nevertheless, don't be penny wise, pound foolish (a British expression).   RW consider "pennywise" as greedy, and pound foolish as stupid.   
 
Sounds like your woman is in her 40s.  She will not change much regarding her attitude about asking for money.  I found it best to give FSUW a budgeted amount and tell them once that is spent there is no more.  Then comes the issue of negotiating a budget.  However, if both people are reasonable and committed to the relationship, it will succeed. 
 
I agree completely with BC that you need to meet the family.  In fact, the meeting is overdue and is the largest concern I have about your relationship.   The FSUW I met usually introduced me to their family and friends within a few dates.  My ex-wife introduced me to her family and children within 24 hours and we mostly did family things from there.   
 
I suggest that you retain an interpreter and have a long serious telephone call with your UW.  Be diplomatic -don't make her think you are angry.  Just say that you have good feelings for her, you want to advance to the next level, and you have some questions or possible misunderstandings.   
 
I am jealous of the fact that you live close to Ukraine and can travel quickly.  I just returned from western Siberia and it was 32 hours from wake-up for an early flight to arriving  home.   This is an advantage in that you can take time to build the relationship.
 
Jim, you have much to think about.  Please return after you have given it more thought.  Remember that every UM is different as is every western man.   Some men would not be happy with my women and I would not be happy with their women.   If you are happy when with her, and she seems the same, fantastic.   
 

[Olly]

The broken arm on her son may cost about  300 - 400 $ in Ukraina 

[BC]

 
I am jealous of the fact that you live close to Ukraine and can travel quickly.  I just returned from western Siberia and it was 32 hours from wake-up for an early flight to arriving  home.   This is an advantage in that you can take time to build the relationship.

I can only classify that as torture.....  At the most Moscow is 5 hours away from here including connecting flights. My wife's town only a few hours more, max 12 hrs with bad connections.

[Gator]

I can only classify that as torture.....  At the most Moscow is 5 hours away from here including connecting flights. My wife's town only a few hours more, max 12 hrs with bad connections.

Bad layovers.  6 hours at SVO after waking at 4:00 am.   I have trouble sleeping on a plane, and I can't sleep during a layover in fear of missing the flight or having my luggage stolen.   After arriving home, I spent two days in front of the TV (sleeping more than watching). 
 
That is why I prefer for RW to visit me.   

[acrzybear]

Gator
I don't miss those flights at all and I am glad I'm married and living in Germany now   I don't have those dreaded 10+ flights over the Atlantic, It is only a 2 1/2 hour flight to Kiev to visit the SIL (and even better once MIL moves there this summer).  I found out a couple of weeks ago that apparently I will be spending part of my Summer helping mama move.    

[Faux Pas]

 
A philosophy of guilty until proven innocent?   My attitude when dating RW was different.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt on the pennies but questioned and usually stopped at the pounds.  Meanwhile I relaxed and had fun rather than inflicting myself with a case of scam paranoia.  RW can be a lot of fun if you get them to relax and to trust you.

P. S.  I never felt that I was scammed.  I walked from a couple of insincere women who slipped through my screening filters.

For me Gator it's trivialities. When an OP asks I only assume there is a 50/50 either way thus, there is nothing from which to gauge but what they state. IMHO, if all was well in paradise they wouldn't be here with a burdened heart and such questions to ask. I dunno, maybe i'm getting lazy perhaps. I don't have the urge or inclination to ask any questions anymore.


Jim's case as stated looks nothing more than him being played for a chump. $7000 is a lot of money for a broken arm and maybe she did miscalculate. It appears now she didn't ask for it but she has still asked for money and IME, that is never a good sign. Nor is asking for gifts. As several others have mentioned most honorable women would chew off a limb rather than ask a stranger for money. English obviously isn't Jim's first language but, I think he got his point across well enough.

[Misha]

It appears now she didn't ask for it but she has still asked for money and IME, that is never a good sign.

A good manipulator won't have to ask directly, simply set the stage to make the man feel that he should offer to pay.... If it wasn't a typo or some other misunderstanding, why else would she inflate the real cost by a factor of ten and then go on to say how she will have to ask for her ex-husbands for help 

[Faux Pas]

A good manipulator won't have to ask directly, simply set the stage to make the man feel that he should offer to pay.... If it wasn't a typo or some other misunderstanding, why else would she inflate the real cost by a factor of ten and then go on to say how she will have to ask for her ex-husbands for help 

Agreed

[GQBlues]

...I recall GQ's wife was not struggling because she was very young and living with her parents.

Irrelevant.
 
Wifey used a highly pirated CD called Bridge to English I & II. Paid 200 rubles for it from her University stipend. Once she progressed, she hit the library, universities, internet, etc...to further her skills. It worked for her then, it is working for her parents today.
 
It is little wonder lessons and interpreters had become fashionable in these affairs. There's enough men out there gullible enough to foot these silliness.
 
You want to be a cash machine, then do so and not look back. If any man feel they must push the value of money in these relationships front and center, then understand dependency on you being one will be a learned behavior. Chances are women aren't unlearning such behaviors post-arrival.
 
You plant a banana tree, best be prepared to eat bananas. Lot's of it.
 
Jim, if you can and would like to afford it, then do so and be done with it. Otherwise, cross your gut instinct at your peril. There's plenty of English speaking women in Ukraine.

[Gator]

Faux Pas and Misha,
 
Again I find myself the odd child.  Speaking of odd, perhaps I have Oppositional Defiant Disorder.     Joke!
 
I find it strange that based on a few paragraphs of inconclusive writing, RWD veterans were making definitive statements that the woman is a scammer.  In contrast, I saw a reasonable explanation for everything (other than not meeting her family).
 
 
Rather than make a definitive assessment, I thought it better to list some questions for Jim to ask himself and her.  He would thus gather the information missing today.  What I gave him was not a decision tree, but certainly it could help him become more confident if he did decide to burn his bridges. 
 
Jim has invested time with her.  He knows her better than we do.   Obviously he has some concerns.  We need to help him make the correct solution, but only after a thorough self-deliberation. 
 
 
If Jim were a friend and you were talking with him and asked for advice, would it not take at least 2-3 beers and much more revelations than those few paragraphs he wrote?  In fact you would discuss personal information that we would not touch at RWD.  We don't have that information and never will.   So we can only point Jim to some alternatives and let him decide.
 

When you are at the early stages of a relationship, all questionable behaviour should be examine under a microscope and should not be easily written off.

 
 
And that is what I was doing - not writing her off.  And how confident were you after two meetings?  I have dated many, many RW and just like me none are ideal much less perfect. 

[Muzh]

Jim has invested time with her.  He knows her better than we do.   Obviously he has some concerns.  We need to help him make the correct solution, but only after a thorough self-deliberation. 
 
 

Gator, this is why many make the same mistake. ROI


The man came here asking some questions because it was bothering him. She doesn't necessarily has to be a scammer in the sense many people here use the term.


I will say it again, most Ukrainian women would rather swallow a cup of thumbtacks rather than insinuate to a stranger she needs money.

[Gator]

GQBlues,
 
Irrelevant?  Protected 20-yo beauty queen princess student lives the same as a 40  yo in Ukraine backwater town?  Maybe. 
 
What was wifey's English level when you first met.  I gave the Rosetta Stone to a RW.  I watched her try.  She did not do well because she never saw a boy sitting on a green ball under an airplane.   
 
GQ, you do make a valid point.  It is essential that the FSUW is committed to making the move to be with a man.
 
For the price of one round of golf, Jim's woman can take lessons.  If she improves by his next visit, it is a sign that she really wants to make the move to a different world with Jim.  If no improvement, one can only surmise that she is not committed.  Poor woman, she must also learn Swedish.

[Gator]

Okay,
 
I give up.
 
Jim, the committee has met and has concluded your woman to be a deceiving piece of trash who will bust your balls but only after taking every kroner you have saved.   
 
The committee believes you should start over and find someone who is frugal, does her wifey chores and duties, does not fancy pretty things, does not care about her children,  and would never ask a man for anything.  Please read BillyB's posts on how to find such a compliant woman.
 
Also, your next woman needs to speak English except have the flaw of not being able to pronounce "j" and "th," enabling her to speak Swedish. 
 
Meanwhile be sure to have plenty of sex so that in case this next woman also proves unacceptable, you will not regret having given her the $15 SSAB statinless steel cake server when you first met.
 
Jim - I am making a joke, and many friends tell me that I have a twisted sense of humor.

[Misha]

Gator, if she told him that it cost her $7,000 to fix her son's broken arm and it was not a mistake or some form of miscommunication, then she was clearly LYING and certainly had an ulterior motive. This for me would be a deal-breaker.  It has nothing to do with frugality, everything to do with setting minimal standards. As Muzh writes, respectable women have too much pride to fish for handouts IMHO.

[GQBlues]

...Poor woman, she must also learn Swedish.

 
No. Poor Jim. After investing on the woman for her English lessons, he must now raise the ante up and fork more $$$ for Swedish lessons. If he thinks it cost him an arm and a leg for her English lessons, best he mortgage the house for the next study, LOL.
 
 
I'm just taking notice of the frequency of these silliness compared to what it was a scant 6-7 years ago. It's almost as if it is now the new norm. Monthly dole for English lessons and the expense of dining an interpreter along on visits/dates?
 
 
Why do men aspire to have a relationship with women from a different culture, and do so with women they don't share a common language with is just beyond silly to me.
 
Many AM use the excuse they've given up on AWs because they're fat. Well heck, if that is true ( ), considering they're more than ready to part with their money to a total stranger for some silly English lessons so carelessly...why not just date a cute fat AW and just pay for their personal trainer and get her in tip top shape. At least he can bitch about the cost to her in the same language and he doesn't even have the need to fly halfway around the world to get some love, LOL.
 
 
If not, and he insist in going to places like Ukraine, then I say lose the gal and date the freakin' interpreter.

[BillyB]

 
Jim, most FSU women grow up believing her man is responsible for taking care of her needs when it comes to material things. Some women will ask their man when she needs something and some women won't ask.
 
 
Women who ask for fianancial help may not be a scammers but may have been brought up that way watching their friends and/or mother's interaction with men. Regardless, it's bad manners and I wouldn't marry bad manners.
 
 
Women who don't ask for help have good manners but they will probably dump a man if he's clueless and doesn't take care of her.
 
 
My fiancee doesn't ask for money even when she got kicked out of Libya due to the war. Because she is my fiancee, I sent her $500 or more a month to help her and her mother out. If she was a just woman I exchanged a few months correspondence with and had financial problems, I would have stopped writing her. I don't like to get involved with women who have lots of trouble in their lives solved by money. Fortunately I came to conclusions about my fiancee's character before the war.
 
 
Although the money is an issue, the biggest problem in your case I see is the fact your gal doesn't introduce you to family and friends. She feels you two are deep enough in a relationship that it's ok for her to ask money but you're not special enough to her to mingle with family and friends. In essense you are simply her sponsor, not a boyfriend that she would be proud to take home and show mamma.
 
 
It seems you're already re-evaluating this situation. You should also think about what you're looking for in a woman and a wife. Once you do that, go find her.
 

[Terran]

There are so many free sites out there where you can learn many different languages. The site i used to learn my Russian is Livemocha.com I never paid any money and you can sign up in Russian. There are thousands of people all over the world that will help you with translations. I dont understand why waste more money when she can learn at her own pace at home. Sure you dont get the same interactions from a actual class but it's a start! And she can always practice her english with you.

When it comes to sending money... It just causes more problems and sometimes creates more doubt as to what the money is actually being used for. Or maybe i am wrong.

[BillyB]

When it comes to sending money... It just causes more problems and sometimes creates more doubt as to what the money is actually being used for.

 
Money can cause problems between couples especially if they disagree what it's used for. Also people may have different ideas at what point in a relationship should finances be shared 50/50 and unconditionally. Also Jim's RW may think she's asking for little if she has never been educated on what Jim or the average western man earns.
 
 
If Jim pursues this relationship and is bold enough to tell his woman what he makes and can and can't afford, he may learn real quick if she dumps him or adjusts her behavior to not put him anymore financial hardships on him.
 
 
I remember a guy coming on the forum saying his fiancee's apartment was robbed. She asked him to replace everything. Computer, tv, etc...  He was asking questions here because obviously he had doubts she was robbed. Because she was his fiancee, most everyone told him he should MAN up, trust her and support his fiancee at this difficult and stressful time and buy the things she needs. Some brought up a good point that if she is leaving her country soon, why does she need everything replaced. I don't know the ending of that story but IMO the guy was ready to marry the RW yet he had doubts about his fiancee's character. Not good heading into marriage. Jim has doubts about his gal. Whether Jim is right or wrong about his feelings, he HAS these feelings and it's not good for him to move deeper into this relationship unless he can accept his gals behavior.

[Ade]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I've never understood why serious men think it's a good idea to chase after women that don't speak their language. Real relationships are based on communication not just sex. And yes, they can learn but how the hell can a man be even remotely sure they are compatible with someone if they have to talk via an electronic translator? So what, they practice some patience and just hope they have been lucky in the compatibility stakes until the woman can talk to them properly? Those are long odds. But after so much "investment" perhaps they will be more likely to try to force a square peg into a round hole...

Jim obviously has doubts; that is not a good sign in a new relationship to start with. I could go with Gator's $7000 miscommunication but I'd be a little wary after not meeting the family. Misha's right for once about those that manipulate others for money; the good ones don't have to ask, they just set up the situation so that you think you offered out of the kindness of you own heart (right Billy?). I'd not be happy with unsolicited requests for gifts either unless there are problems with her expectations but whatever the reason, Jim needs to address this with her directly if he feels uncomfortable with it.

FWIW, Scandinavia has pretty good free systems in place for teaching the local language to immigrant wives; at least Norway does so I'd be surprised if Sweden is any different.

[BillyB]

the good ones don't have to ask, they just set up the situation so that you think you offered out of the kindness of you own heart (right Billy?).
 

 
It's possible but I haven't experience that senario unless my fiancee started the Libyan war to get some sympathy from me.