Is "trading up" really such a bad thing?

[Kuna]

Donna Pedro has raised some really interesting comments in another thread which raises the question in my mind... is trading-up (for either men or women) really such a bad thing?

The long and meandering thread in question can be found here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14154.0

Some men have taken offense at the thought that some women would judge them (i.e. not enter a relationship with them) if they did not meet a certain level of financial stature.

Someone thinks $50,000 per year is not enough to be a good husband/provider for a family which includes a FSUW.

Someone thinks a man should not disclose his financial position (or his exact financial position) before marriage...

DP is very matter-of-fact in that money should be an early and major contributor to a decision on whether to enter a relationship with a man - even if the woman has little or nothing herself.

There is obviously a lower limit that would make marrying a FSUW impossible anyway...  but what about a middle/working class woman in FSUW who is aiming (as DP suggests) for the top 10% of income earners in the US??? 

Are they being realistic or do they just have a "sense of entitlement?"

Are they just greedy people looking for a free ride?

(btw...  I actually had a look and am amazed to be in the top 6 percent in the USA all you need to do is earn $100,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States) so I can't see someone in the top 10% as having a "very comfortable" lifestyle anyway. Surely these numbers must be wrong!)

We often hear about men who have a sense of entitlement... they think because they have a US passport they will be able to go over to UA/RU and "get one of those hotties for themselves".  These men regularly fail to find what they are looking for... but if they do have such an attitude and end up marrying "one of the hotties",  they usually end up as a train wreck, right?

It stands to reason then that a woman with a sense of entitlement might also face a higher chance of getting dumped too...  I mean,  if a man doesn't have the income she demands - then she'll probably run...  If her husband ends up having far more than she expected, then would she have a "character of sufficient substance' to end up becoming a good wife, an equal partner and good contributor to the relationship,  or would she always just be a parasite?

At what point is a woman's interest in money unhealthy???

She must have an interest in financial security of course...  but at what point should a man just write off a woman because her greed is more obvious than her beauty?

We always judge men (Some would say rightly so) who think the passport makes them entitled to someone 30 years their junior...

So what is the breaking point???

What should men watch out for when it comes to women who are too interested in the mans income (or assets) - or have expectations that are unreasonable?

I'm not even talking about pro-daters...  they should be obvious enough to run away from... but what about even the women who THINK they are looking for marriage but really they're just looking for a free meal?

How would a high income man spot them - should he avoid them - and how can they avoid them?

[Misha]

Kuna, IMVHO, the answer is quite simple. If a woman is not driven solely by pecuniary interests, she will be driven by the need to answer one simple question: "Does he truly love me?"

[Faux Pas]

Good thread Kuna. I was going to post this in the other one and decided "whats the use"?

My grandfather died at age 78 never making more than 11K in one year. When he died he didn't owe one soul on earth a single cent and he left my grandmother financially secure until her death some 3 years later. There was even some left and real property for the children to divvy up after her death. By all accounts he was a very happy man, raised a big family and lived a full life. I remember once in the early 80's I told him my salary in the early 30's. He didn't believe me and I had to show him my pay stubs. He couldn't believe people were paid that much money.

 I once had an older guy tell me when I was in my early 20's that "It isn't how much you make, it's what you do, with what you make. Of course being in my early 20's I thought the guy was full of pooh. It wasn't until years later I found out the old guy knew something. This of course after I squandered money and opportunity. Hindsight is 20/20

To answer the question of your thread I say no, there's nothing wrong with trading up. For RW (and all women) it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as it is a poor one. Likely much easier. Likewise for a balding older, possibly uglier man to fall in love with a beautiful woman over an ugly one. Simple facts of life. The problem I see with doing it where those questions linger usually leave a superficial relationship. A marriage or relationship based on the superficial values doesn't stand the test of time IMO. To be strong, lasting relationships they require more. That isn't to say any particular superficial marriage won't stand the test of time. Some will no doubt but, why risk it?

50K (USD) is hardly the poverty level. Not far from it perhaps but many, many people live happy full lives making much less than that. Everybody doesn't require new cars and fancy houses. Some do and I take no issue with it however, when a relationships success is rated by the financial standing, too much is overlooked.

[Daveman]

Are they being realistic or do they just have a "sense of entitlement?"

Are they just greedy people looking for a free ride?

Some fall into each of the three categories.   


As for how to avoid them..  I think a man can easily sense the woman's focus though he may lie to himself because she's hot. If his gut tells him "there's something not quite right here" then he should speak his mind about it... get it out in the open, take the responsibility and the reins to lead the discussion into the taboo topics, be forthcoming, argue, debate, whatever it takes to shake it down and if after such heart to hearts something still feels "not right" he should simply move on.  The gut is rarely ever wrong.


That being said. To me, love/caring/etc is about what one "gives" or "brings" to a relationship.  I happen to agree with the idea that a woman shouldn't really need to ask me for anything because as her partner and primary bread winner, I supply not only the necessities but also whatever just to take care of her.  I anticipate her true needs and/or wants as best as I can (and no, we are not talking about leading with a wallet or buying love) and take care of them as she does the same for me. 


Regardless of how we want to slice and dice it, the money topic in family is and always will be important.  That being said, and unhealthy focus on one's wallet is easy to detect if one can be honest with himself about the woman and their relationship. 


Somewhat off topic but related,  I saw this program on discovery channel about Hermit Crabs.  When it's time to mate, the little male crabs build little mud houses on the "beach" and then begin to click and swing their little claws in the attempt to lure the females into their houses... some are elaborate, some are little more than a hole.  The crabs who built a "hole" remained alone in their hole with "one claw pumping".   

[BC]

With liberal application of Occam's Razor one will likely find that 'trading up' is a most natural and normal aspect of any relationship.

It's very much a 'basic instinct'.

[CanadaMan]

Yes this is a good post Kuna.

Just a comment for now.

A couple of years ago my Dad (now 86) went on a trip with me abroad for some man-man time alone.

During our talks he wasn't trying to give me any sage advice, but simply stated what he had observed/learned in all his years.

He said that everything in life ultimately comes down to sex and money.

[Donna_Pedro]

Some men have taken offense at the thought that some women would judge them (i.e. not enter a relationship with them) if they did not meet a certain level of financial stature.

And some  took even so big of an offense, that the thing that comes to mind is "open gestalt"? Were you sexually abused by a domineering rw with an attitude? 

[Kuna]

Good thread Kuna. I was going to post this in the other one and decided "whats the use"?

You're like me... sometime I start threads and then think, "What's the use."

The one I've often started (but don't think I've started) should be titled something like - When the fantasy takes over...  ;-)

We sit here and read some men's stories and sometimes I just can't understand how they ended up losing touch with reality so badly...  I think we CAN ask the same about women.  Why and when do some women lose touch with reality so badly that they think they deserve financial conditions far greater than they had at home?

Thankfully many women looking for international marriage are actually looking for a relationship - not pay day...  but I actually feel sorry for those women just like I feel sorry for men who are deluded that they've lost touch with reality.

I suspect most who don't wake up to themselves end up as poorly as the men who are just chasing an ego boost by married someone far outside of their league...  It's just a shame when we KNOW some rw are so twisted they spread their disease (money hunger) to other RW.

I'll probably touch on this a little later as my wife has a friend who makes us shake our heads in frustration.

[Kuna]

Some fall into each of the three categories.   


As for how to avoid them..  I think a man can easily sense the woman's focus though he may lie to himself because she's hot. If his gut tells him "there's something not quite right here" then he should speak his mind about it... get it out in the open, take the responsibility and the reins to lead the discussion into the taboo topics, be forthcoming, argue, debate, whatever it takes to shake it down and if after such heart to hearts something still feels "not right" he should simply move on.  The gut is rarely ever wrong.

I agree... but my lingering belief is that some men are so engaged in "the fantasy" they are no longer in touch with their gut.

In unequal relationships men use women and/or women use men.  We often talk about the men that are using women (or trying to) but newbies may not be aware there are some nasty women out their that are patient and calculating enough to bleed a relationship for everything it's worth... and then move on without the blink of an eye.

I saw this happen with a business associate of mine (Way before I'd ever considered looking to FSU)...  his RU gf had absolutely no qualms in telling people (at parties, or anywhere in public) that she was "trading-up".  She would cheekily say, "I love Tony... for now, but a beautiful girl will always want the best."

In a strange way I think her ruthlessness gave him an ego boost - he felt like he was the top of the tree... and he was, for that time, but she ended up finding someone with more money and she was off without the blink of an eye. 

He and I talked about it and I reminded him of what she use to say and he honestly believed she never meant it.

She had him hook, line and sinker - and he had no idea.

Somewhat off topic but related,  I saw this program on discovery channel about Hermit Crabs.  When it's time to mate, the little male crabs build little mud houses on the "beach" and then begin to click and swing their little claws in the attempt to lure the females into their houses... some are elaborate, some are little more than a hole.  The crabs who built a "hole" remained alone in their hole with "one claw pumping".   

hahahaha... and here I thought it was all about "the kitchen" (as we are now in discussions about building another house).   

[Kuna]

With liberal application of Occam's Razor one will likely find that 'trading up' is a most natural and normal aspect of any relationship.

It's very much a 'basic instinct'.

I think EVERYBODY trades-up when entering any relationship (Employment, love, social or sporting group)... in love perhaps not trading up from all previous partners or not trading up from every point in history... but every relationship must have an element of trading up from the persons recent "situation" to a better "situation" (i.e. why be in a new relationship if being alone was better?)

If the direct most route or the simplest path was the best option, then "love" wouldn't matter... it IS "just a deal."

For some people maybe marriage is "just a deal"...  if that's the case it'd be very sad because the human spirit can't be truly fulfilled if someone's primary motivation is taking the best out of the deal that they can (For men:  Sex, housekeeper, cook, etc ----  and for the woman:  Money, comfort, etc).

Maybe this is just "the modern way"????

For instance, people that are obsessed with money can't really understand what they are missing out on.  Likewise, a man obsessed with skirt also can't realise what he is missing out on... can he?

Obviously there are some people that treat relationships this way...  men should just realise that if they don't have their feet on the ground and if the fantasy (hot young body) is allowed to take over, they are most likely in for a world of pain.

[jeff9556]

I can only really talk about myself and I look for quality, I think any man in a higher earning bracket whose got half a brain is doing the same. If she presents with the right character, background, intelligence, values, beliefs, moral integrity and good manners, then I don't really see it as marrying down - but rather marrying someone of the same ilk.

I am not going to look too hard at what she or her family earns - experience has shown me these things seldom have much to do with how much one earns - today's nouveau riche are frequently yesterdays white trash.

While a girl might indeed marry up, and in opposition to that he marry down (Newtonian and apt), she can never, or at least rarely, escape her social class - so she should marry within that social class. If he is wealthy they will have a certain lifestyle, or not, as the case may be.

As for this 50k thing, I think Jumper summed it up quite well in the other thread - average begets average, sounds like a pretty good maxim.

And the man who falls for fools gold, well, you normally get what you're looking for...

[SANDRO43]

Is "trading-up" really such a bad thing?

Which begs the mirror question: "Is "trading-down" really such a bad thing?"

In ancient times kings and nobles married within their own circle, but often dallied with lower-class females, spawning a bevy of 'bastards' who at times inherited the titles simply because they outlived their legitimate siblings - the infusion of newer, 'stronger' blood seemed to improve those genetic lines.

One can also wonder whether the famous droit du seigneur - or jus primae noctis - was an inadvertent stratagem to secure that very result , besides its obviously enjoyable main benefits.
             

Vittorio Emanuele II di Savoia (1820-1878), our very first king, for almost 30 years had La bela Rosin (the pretty Rosa, daughter of his gamekeeper) as a steady lover, and married her secretly in 1869.

He is quoted to say that He breathed fresher, healthier air while with her .

[jeff9556]

For instance, people that are obsessed with money can't really understand what they are missing out on.  Likewise, a man obsessed with skirt also can't realise what he is missing out on... can he?

Very well said Kuna, both likely have a rather contrived belief in what they are missing out on. Someone said in the other thread that money can't buy you happiness (totally agree, of course), but what it can buy you is freedom (again totally agree). Since people without money have never really experienced that sort of freedom they have no empathy for it - they don't really "get it".

People sometimes think I am very happy because I have a few extra coins in my back pocket, no, not at all, I am so happy because I got divorced 

[Kuna]

And some  took even so big of an offense, that the thing that comes to mind is "open gestalt"? Were you sexually abused by a domineering rw with an attitude? 

 

Maybe I would have liked being sexually abused by a domineering RW???   



No,  it's more that your comments earlier sparked some thoughts about women who are just ugly on the inside even if they appear beautiful on the outside.

My wife has a friend who married an Australian guy and almost from day one she has tried to compete with my wife over what they have... and what she's got.  Sadly (for her) she thought she was entering a marriage and would live a very comfortable life...  she probably is living a comfortable life compared to RU...  but her greed and envy really makes her an unattractive person.

Her husband is a nice guy in a reasonable government job... but by no means is he in the "top 10%" - and he never will be.  My wife and I are doing well, suffice to say we couldn't live on a USA income that was not in the top 6%.  I'd never really looked at income like this but had a look after reading your comments in the other thread - I think we're probably in the top 1% in Australia - but as someone else said, "It's not what you earn it's how you use it."

My wife's friend will phone her and tell her she just bought a $2,000 coffee machine.  My wife gets off the phone and is distraught because she can't understand how someone can waste that much money...



Ultimately, I think some women are just so dim they will focus on what they can get (income) and not what they can give.  These women are not the good catches in my opinion....  they aren't so much a drain on the family finances are as being a drain on the family values.

Perhaps this is what it comes down to...  RW with poor values.

[Donna_Pedro]

Perhaps this is what it comes down to...  RW with poor values.

You can flood this forum with your stream of consciousnesses, but here is a fact for you (and everybody else for that matter) - however "poor" these values might be, they  work! in a marriage. And they work great! They have been for over 10 years.  And this fact simply beats all your arguments. All of them. Face it - no structure, no system can work efficiently for a long time  if a basis is poorly designed. It might for a while, but not for long. (here is a good point where you can start a speculating on my husband's  or mine personality, because the fact you are fighting so vigorously is  clearly above any logical arguments). It simply works. Here we are,  all happy, hubby right next to me on a couch watching TV together, fixing to go grab us a dinner. I think the fact that it works disturbs you, that's why you keep plowing over it again and again. How come - a woman with values so "poor" and attitudes so  "wrong"   is having a successful, productive and overall great  relationship with her husband for over 10 years?    Let me just repeat it again - successful, productive and overall great  relationship! I dont think you understood it still, so I repeat again - successful, productive and overall great  relationship!  And a happy family. So next time you get on your high horse and start preaching to the newbies, "be honest, be brave" and say it this way "I do not personally agree with it, but it looks like this approach works and can help you to create a successful, productive and overall great  relationship. And a happy family.

[Patagonie]

Very well said Kuna, both likely have a rather contrived belief in what they are missing out on. Someone said in the other thread that money can't buy you happiness (totally agree, of course), but what it can buy you is freedom (again totally agree). Since people without money have never really experienced that sort of freedom they have no empathy for it - they don't really "get it".

People sometimes think I am very happy because I have a few extra coins in my back pocket, no, not at all, I am so happy because I got divorced 

It's me  , and the last post of Donna shows us the gap, sorry the inter stellar distance, between those who get it and those who don't.

[Patagonie]

I can only really talk about myself and I look for quality, I think any man in a higher earning bracket whose got half a brain is doing the same. If she presents with the right character, background, intelligence, values, beliefs, moral integrity and good manners, then I don't really see it as marrying down - but rather marrying someone of the same ilk.

I am not going to look too hard at what she or her family earns - experience has shown me these things seldom have much to do with how much one earns - today's nouveau riche are frequently yesterdays white trash.

While a girl might indeed marry up, and in opposition to that he marry down (Newtonian and apt), she can never, or at least rarely, escape her social class - so she should marry within that social class. If he is wealthy they will have a certain lifestyle, or not, as the case may be.

As for this 50k thing, I think Jumper summed it up quite well in the other thread - average begets average, sounds like a pretty good maxim.

And the man who falls for fools gold, well, you normally get what you're looking for...

+1

[Misha]

however "poor" these values might be, they  work! in a marriage. And they work great! They have been for over 10 years.

They may work for you, they may work for your husband, but personally, I would not want it. Also, longevity of a marriage in itself is not necessarily a useful criteria for judging the success of a system. Some marriages last, because neither could be bothered to put in the effort to divorce 

[Donna_Pedro]

They may work for you, they may work for your husband, but personally, I would not want it. Also, longevity of a marriage in itself is not necessarily a useful criteria for judging the success of a system. Some marriages last, because neither could be bothered to put in the effort to divorce 

 I do understand,  some facts are hard to swallow "as is", you need to grease them with  speculations  and (sometimes even) personal attacks. You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great. My marriage is a happy one. And Its a functional one.

[Patagonie]

I would give you some personals observations in the way to answer.
 
Have you observed how many costly cars you can see in big cities in FSU ?
 
More than in my country cities. Really it's honest.
 
A lot of folks in FSU have the madness of cars. I will just give you an example. I have a friend who is a taxi driver, he owns a japanese SUV. And now he want to buy a bigger one for an amount of 80k $. What is the economical and logical explanation of those two purchases ? NO  ECONOMICAL explanation, you will better earn your money by having a not too much expansive car, a 12 years old boy can understand this, just few maths. The reason is ..... elsewhere.
 
In FSU you have, surely more rich than their western counterparts (don't argue but it gives a picture), and 90% of people are poor (Ukraine, average earning is 350$ per month), you are rich OR you are poor, the embryo of middle class is existing in big cities and have been broomed by the crisis. To let know where you are you need to SHOW. The car is the most representative sign of evidence, of course. But it's not finished. You must have the last coffee machine. You SHOW. The last Vuitton Bag, you SHOW. May it possible to come back at Moscow and when discussing with you friends may it possible to explain that you are travelling with Golf 5, no you have q Q5 or a Cheyenne. You have a rank, you need to hold it. To hold it you need to show. A large part of your energy and you work is to ensure that you will put the good signs in front of you everywhere. You go to hang up ? you cannot have a coffee here, it's popular, you need to go to the big expansive one here, to hold your rank and to be here when people can see you, in the jet area.


It's impossible to have a children with less than an iphone at 11 years, what your cousin will say in two weeks at Moscow, both of his sons of 7 years has already an IPAD ? Hubby, not possible i don't want my cousine believes that we cannot give better to our child. Signs are a true culture, on name it the show culture. To have specials numerals on number plate in Ukraine if you want to have for example 00001 you pay 1000 or 10000$ to get it. Benefit : you show. You car have a 6.4 liters wich consumes 20-30 liters per 100 km. But you show ! they need many years and ask a lot of money to every family members and take credit and eat potatoes. The more important is TO SHOW. You exist because you have.

[Misha]

 I do understand,  some facts are hard to swallow "as is", you need to grease them with  speculations  and (sometimes even) personal attacks. You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great. My marriage is a happy one. And Its a functional one.

Again, maybe it works great, but I just have your word for it. However, the challenge that I would have with functional marriages is what happens if there is a major change in the financial status of the husband? If, for whatever reason, his income drops let's say to less than our hypothetical $50k per year, then what? Is the marriage no longer "functional"?

[Kuna]

People sometimes think I am very happy because I have a few extra coins in my back pocket, no, not at all, I am so happy because I got divorced 

Ah... interesting...  so you didn't trade UP to become happy....  you traded OUT.   

When you find the right lady and remarry you will again be trading up - which of course isn't a bad thing... as long as you keep your feet on the ground and don't have unrealistic expectations of your lady.



Then again... it's a modern world...  we should encourage equality in relationships.  Perhaps you should be checking the income, savings and asset valuations of the ladies you are dating. 

Perhaps DP could help you work out if these women are worthy or not???   

[Donna_Pedro]

Again, maybe it works great, but I just have your word for it. However, the challenge that I would have with functional marriages is what happens if there is a major change in the financial status of the husband? If, for whatever reason, his income drops let's say to less than our hypothetical $50k per year, then what? Is the marriage no longer "functional"?

 when i said i considered my husband's financial situation, everybody automatically assumed that it was ALL I considered.

[Misha]

 when i said i considered my husband's financial situation, everybody automatically assumed that it was ALL I considered.

Perhaps it wasn't all that you considered, but you made it clear that it was your primary consideration.

[Kuna]

You can flood this forum with your stream of consciousnesses, but here is a fact for you (and everybody else for that matter) - however "poor" these values might be, they  work! in a marriage. And they work great! They have been for over 10 years.  And this fact simply beats all your arguments. All of them.

There are many marriages that last for a lot longer than 10 years that are unhealthy marriages.

Over long time ago a friend of mine asked me the be Master of Ceremonies at his parents 50th wedding anniversary. 

I wanted to prepare well and make it very personal and very special so I suggested I go and "interview" them to gather some comments, quips and quotes I could use on the night.

I talked to the father first, then the mother, then intended talking to them together.

He said stuff like, "She was a good woman and a good mother - I couldn't have asked for anyone better."

She said, "He was an abusive bastard.  A drunk and a wife beater, I put up with everything because we had to survive and by the time the kids were old enough I was too old and I gave up.  He doesn't beat me anymore - but then again we barely even talk."

I decide not to do the "interview" together because there was nothing else I wanted to know.   

I did MC the night,  kept it short and let the family celebrate as they wanted...  but I felt so sorry for this woman and the life she'd lead.

DP... a long marriage is not necessarily a healthy marriage.

Face it - no structure, no system can work efficiently for a long time if a basis is poorly designed. It might for a while, but not for long.

What an incredibly juvenile statement.  Do you think before you say these things or are you just programmed for BS?

Do you think communism "worked efficiently" for a long time???  To even think of the number of people who  suffered through those times - and yet you think because something lasts for a long time then it must be working efficiently???

You talk such rubbish at times!

(here is a good point where you can start a speculating on my husband's or mine personality, because the fact you are fighting so vigorously is clearly above any logical arguments).
 

 
 
 "Darlin'  there's no logic in any of the statement you've been making through these threads about money hungry FSUW.  Logic seems as foreign to you as the FSU is to any man before they first go there... it's quite incredible you'd even talk about logic...

It simply works. Here we are,  all happy, hubby right next to me on a couch watching TV together, fixing to go grab us a dinner. I think the fact that it works disturbs you, that's why you keep plowing over it again and again. How come - a woman with values so "poor" and attitudes so  "wrong"   is having a successful, productive and overall great  relationship with her husband for over 10 years?    Let me just repeat it again - successful, productive and overall great  relationship! I dont think you understood it still, so I repeat again - successful, productive and overall great  relationship!  And a happy family.

I'm very happy your relationship with you husband seems to work... but this really isn't about the quality of your relationship... and you shouldn't be so defensive... really!   

One of the triggers for this thread was not a critique of your relationship... but your simplistic "service" when giving commentary of a man's financial position through a flawed and ineffective process of gathering data.

Above you talk about logic.  If you were capable of logic you'd realise public searches of the superficial information  about a man's financial position is laughable...  and you pass this off to women (who would know no better) as being useful information.

You say you've been in the US for 10 years therefore you know how the system works - and you can help women.  Honestly, after 10 years you really know nothing.

You really do seem just like one of those bitter old babushkas...  spending too much time in other people's business - probably because you really are miserable.  Why else interfere with their relationships???  You certainly aren't helping them...  if anything you are probably harming them.

In any case,  it doesn't matter...  my message to newbies stays the same - IMHO any man should be very careful marrying a woman who's primary concern is the financial status of the man.

So next time you get on your high horse and start preaching to the newbies, "be honest, be brave" and say it this way "I do not personally agree with it, but it looks like this approach works and can help you to create a successful, productive and overall great  relationship. And a happy family.

I wasn't telling the telling newbies to be "honest and brave"... I was asking you to confront your own insecurities and be brave enough to be honest.  It's gone straight over your head.  Perhaps you're not as bright as you think you are.I think we might ponder the reason why some people end up like you...  so obsessed with a sense of entitlement...  so obsessed with marrying a man in the top 10% of income (where in fact the top 10% of income in the US actually sounds very modest to me.)Perhaps it's the hardship you experienced in your earlier life that made you like this.  It might have been "the way" back ten years ago... maybe the average woman's prospects were so poor she had to compromise her values to put food on the table... maybe growing up in communism meant she didn't have the right values to start with???I think FSU is very different now for many women.  I don't think women must be as desperate as some were back then.  I know my wife and I talked about income and lifestyle before she came here but it wasn't a focal point of the development of our relationship...  and if it was she couldn't have understood what it meant before arriving.I know a few other RW/WM couples who have been married for 10  years.. they actually seem happy.  I would be curious if the wives married only for money too...  and if (as we hear sometimes) their love developed over time.In this day and age men should be aware that a good FSUW wouldn't focus on money before entering a relationship.  There is a level of income every family needs to survive - but if the woman's primary concern is cash - then men can take this as a warning about what life will probably be like.I'd suggest both partners need to consider far more issues of compatibility, common goals,  values and mutual willingness to give, rather than take.It's hard enough anyway... I can't imagine what it would be like if you felt like someone was constantly in your pocket!!!DP... try not to take it personally.  I think it could be very valuable for men to understand what drives the women who appear more "hungry" than others...  and they are aware that greed isn't actually a cultural trait...  they need not accept a greedy woman!