Is "trading up" really such a bad thing?

[ML]

No problem with that at all regarding both sides: men and women.

GQBlues,  would you start a fiancee visa process or marry a woman if she said to you: "I don't love you, but your finances and assets suit me fine, let see after my arrival and our marriage if I will fall in love with you or not."

Olga, I know a gal  from SPb who did just that.
Two years into the marriage they were still together, but I lost track of them after that.
Don't know what happened regarding the love part, but she was an interesting woman to be around and he was a solid citizen type.  So I hope they were happy together even if no love developed.

[Maxx2]

Maxx, and how would it help?

Maybe it would be more helpful if the US grants RWs who want to get in the US with GC, sum of money and housing, so there would not bee any need for RWs to marry without love 

That is what they do in Canada and they run off the day they set foot into the country. Really! Of course they don't get all those false claims of abuse like they do in the US. Really! 


Those Canadian citizen spouses who have run off wives/husbands want a conditional GC system like we have in the US. But I figure it is "Careful what you wish for. You just might get it".

[OlgaH]

Olga, I know a gal  from SPb who did just that.
Two years into the marriage they were still together, but I lost track of them after that.
Don't know what happened regarding the love part, but she was an interesting woman to be around and he was a solid citizen type.  So I hope they were happy together even if no love developed.

Would you recommend such approach?

[ML]

Olga, love is a very mysterious creature.  It is hard to define and hard to know  if it exists from the giver's and the receiver's standpoints.

I have heard it often said that true love really doesn't appear until 20-30 years of marriage.

But some (including some here) claim it existed for them within days, weeks, or months.  So it's possible that love means different things to different people.

With all that mish-mash said, if two people are being honest, in most cases they are going to get married without knowing if true love really exists.

 I sounds a little cold to hear the words you posed . . .  "I don't love you, but your finances and assets suit me fine, let see after my arrival and our marriage if I will fall in love with you or not"  . . .  and it wouldn't probably make man or woman happy to hear such, but in reality this is probably the situation in many cases . . . even though it mostly remains unsaid.

[GQBlues]

No problem with that at all regarding both sides: men and women.

GQBlues,  would you start a fiancee visa process or marry a woman if she said to you: "I don't love you, but your finances and assets suit me fine, let see after my arrival and our marriage if I will fall in love with you or not."

OlgaH-
 
First of all, the manner in which you structured the question makes it a trick question, IMO. You could've just as well asked, "if someone told you that if you jumped head first into the pavement, your skull would explode to bits. Would you still jump?" Well, gee, I don't know. I better think about that for a minute. Not.
 
IMO, there's a huge difference between: I'm an NOT in love with you, to I don't love you.
 
But there're 2 ways to address the question you asked.
 
I started a thread at the old RWG titled : I'm Not In Love. So I'm not scared to go over that matter again.
 
I was incredibly attracted to my wife at the time, but just as important, I was also incredibly impressed at her character, ambition, attitude, and her honesty. We had a very strong emotional attachment to one another. Limerant. We clicked on so many things.
 
Of course, the fact I ooze with sheer sexiness didn't hurt either. 
 
My wife for her part told me that she thinks about me every chance she gets, gets excited x-ing out the calendar leading to the next time I visit her, talks about us to her friends/family every chance she gets. She tells me she gets a knot in her tummy everytime she thinks of 'us' and our future together.
 
Are these the definitions of being in love? Are these the feelings people feel when they claim to be in love? I mean c'mon...6 visits...a total of 2-3 months face time? While you're technically on vacation? Doing things together on scheduled superficial makeshift daily routine? We haven't had the time invested with one another as a 'couple', like normal couples usually do, to get into some deeper level of 'love' as far as I'm concerned. If others can honestly say they fell in love under these conditions, more power to them.
 
Had my wife told me at the time she was in love with me, I very likely would've taken a different course with her and very likely wouldn't be married with each other today. Honestly. Why? Because despite that feeling I had with her at the time, I couldn't be so honest with myself to admit to anyone, much less her, that I was in love. To me (for us) falling IN LOVE is so much deeper and would involved something far deeper than the condition we were both under. Why I married my wife was because she was as honest with me as I was with her about this very reality...so we mutually decided to take a chance in our relationship and in 'us'.
 
Have we fostered and nurtured our relationship since to freely say we're in love today? Hell yes, even much, much deeper.
 
As for the financial security aspect of things, it's irrelevant to me. *I* made sure on my own to be financially secure before even contemplating marriage with anyone, much less a woman from another country. I wouldn't be in any situation of talks of marriage had I not deem 'ready' to make that type of commitment.
 
So to address the second part, I won't make a mountain out of a mole hill simply because I doubt there's a woman out there who'd refused to marry a man because he got his act together and planned out his life well enough for marriage and family. Likewise, I don't know of any woman who'd profess love to someone for the simple reason they're a deadbeat loser.

[OlgaH]

Olga, love is a very mysterious creature.  It is hard to define and hard to know  if it exists from the giver's and the receiver's standpoints.

I have heard it often said that true love really doesn't appear until 20-30 years of marriage.

But some (including some here) claim it existed for them within days, weeks, or months.  So it's possible that love means different things to different people.

With all that mish-mash said, if two people are being honest, in most cases they are going to get married without knowing if true love really exists.

 I sounds a little cold to hear the words you posed . . .  "I don't love you, but your finances and assets suit me fine, let see after my arrival and our marriage if I will fall in love with you or not"  . . .  and it wouldn't probably make man or woman happy to hear such, but in reality this is probably the situation in many cases . . . even though it mostly remains unsaid.

I agree that "love means different things to different people". I don't think it is too mysterious, at least to me it is not. To me love is when you are afraid of losing a person who brings a meaning into your life, the person you do care about and everything about him/her, about his/her living, feelings, health and so on. And even a thought that you can lose the person hurts, and hurts too bad.

To me love is I'm happy when a person I love is happy. To me love is not "cold", it is "warm"

"Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says: 'I need you  because I love you'". Erich Fromm. 

[OlgaH]

Why I married my wife was because she was as honest with me as I was with her about this very reality...so we mutually decided to take a chance in our relationship and in 'us'.
 

Yes, in my book being honest with each other is very important.

[Donna_Pedro]

No problem with that at all regarding both sides: men and women.

GQBlues,  would you start a fiancee visa process or marry a woman if she said to you: "I don't love you, but your finances and assets suit me fine, let see after my arrival and our marriage if I will fall in love with you or not."

I wouldnt.    Let me repeat myself - I suggested  finances to be the first thing on a woman's list of  priorities. But not the only one. Other important boxes need to be checked too, after (and if) box#1 is OK. So your question should sound differently.  "I don't love you just yet, but I think you are financially reliable and a good personality, we have a lot of  things in common, especially important ones,  there is certain chemistry too, so let see after my arrival and our marriage if I  fall in love with you or not.". Does it look any better now?

[OlgaH]

So to address the second part, I won't make a mountain out of a mole hill simply because I doubt there's a woman out there who'd refused to marry a man because he got his act together and planned out his life well enough for marriage and family. Likewise, I don't know of any woman who'd profess love to someone for the simple reason they're a deadbeat loser.

What is a loser in you definition? 

When I married my  he had nothing, absolutely 0, only his job, after his first divorce. We lived in 12 sq meters with no kitchen and there our son, who will be 20 in March, was born. We built our home and wealth together. We divorced after 14 years because we grew apart. I was very young when I married him. The divorce was emotionally painful for both of us, yes and our son,  but there was not any issues about dividing our assets, and who would get what.  We even did not talk about it. We are still friends. I have never felt regret that I married him and divorced him.

When I married my now husband our home was not finished we did not have kitchen, living room, second bathroom. There were a lot of work. But we have been doing it together and without any loans. Before our marriage I have never asked my husband about his income or assets.

[OlgaH]

I wouldnt.    Let me repeat myself - I suggested  finances to be the first thing on a woman's list of  priorities. But not the only one. Other important boxes need to be checked too, after (and if) box#1 is OK. So your question should sound differently.  "I don't love you just yet, but I think you are financially reliable and a good personality, we have a lot of  things in common, especially important ones,  there is certain chemistry too, so let see after my arrival and our marriage if I  fall in love with you or not.". Does it look any better now?

  But what should she do if she never fall in love with him?

BTW in the case of her divorce I would rather agree she has to get not less than half of his a$$ets and if he will protest too much she should make a domestic violence claim  without hesitation. It will help him to make a right decision.   

[Donna_Pedro]

But what should she do if she never fall in love with him?

And what should she do if she had loved him initially but after a while - stopped? I guess the options are the same, arent they? But somehow I would prefer to go over these options knowing that a man I am married to, though might not be the love of all my life, but is good in all important ways, rather than come here being all in love, like in the story I had told a while ago, about a girl who had to work for tips as a waitress in a small restaurant owned by her husband. I bet she  has learnt her lesson.

[JR]

No, but where is it written that this man must date and marry a hot young RW? Perhaps he can find such a woman, but he should not expect much pity from me when [not if, but when] things don't work out. Again, either you know if a woman isn't into you, or you don't. If you insist of pursuing a woman who is not into you, then you had better accept the consequences...

No where is it written that a man MUST do this but that is the primary reason men get involved in this endeavor.

[Patagonie]

And how should a mommy explain her child that she married a man she did not love, just because of his financial wellness and now she has to divorce him or live with him in the loveless marriage because she never fell in love with the man?

And questions is is the mommy entitled to any financial support from the man she never loved?

Should be a woman honest with a man telling him that she will marry him because of his financial stability and she will see later if she fells with love with him or not?

What do you suggest women who use your service in the case if they will never fall in love with a man after their arrival when you advice them to "keep their heads cold and love-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival?"

Simple :

Assets divided by TWO = full benefits
Risks taken in charge = cover by the full benefits.
= D__P strategy life

[OlgaH]

And what should she do if she had loved him initially but after a while - stopped? I guess the options are the same, arent they? But somehow I would prefer to go over these options knowing that a man I am married to, though might not be the love of all my life, but is good in all important ways, rather than come here being all in love, like in the story I had told a while ago, about a girl who had to work for tips as a waitress in a small restaurant owned by her husband. I bet she  has learnt her lesson.

The girl called me crying.  I asked her if she had asked  specific questions to him beforehand?  And she said, "no, he came to see me and I fell in love". I have seen enough stories like that - women neglecting to ask "down to earth" questions, because they were in love, or scared to piss the guy off, etc.  So yes, eventually it does boil down to feelings. But I suggest to both sides not to fall in love before they actually start living together.

I'm not convinced she was in love with him.  I don't know how much they talk and have discussions, what her level of English was to have all those discussions, how much she was able to observe him and make her notes when he visited her. But "knowing each other" begins from down earth questions. Most likely she was in love with her own idea of relocating abroad and behind that idea in her head she missed all the questions and answers in "verbal" and "pictures" forms.   

[Ade]

I'm not convinced she was in love with him.  I don't know how much they talk and have discussions, what her level of English was to have all those discussions, how much she was able to observe him and make her notes when he visited her. But "knowing each other" begins from down earth questions. Most likely she was in love with her own idea of relocating abroad and behind that idea in her head she missed all the questions and answers in "verbal" and "pictures" forms.

 

[Kuna]

So your question should sound differently.  "I don't love you just yet, but I think you are financially reliable and a good personality, we have a lot of  things in common, especially important ones,  there is certain chemistry too, so let see after my arrival and our marriage if I  fall in love with you or not.". Does it look any better now?

Yes, this looks MUCH better than what you were saying earlier.  It makes you seem less money hungry and vicious.  Maybe it's just taken longer for "the real you" to come out.


I don't think anyone in ANY post has been saying money is not important.  Of course it is...  but you WERE suggesting money was the primary qualifier before even entering a "relationship."  You may not realise it - but there is a vast difference in your two positions.

[GoodOlBoy]

The guy was a GOB from a very small town in MS,.... What the husband did was completely moronic - he brought a drunk female co-worker to the house and laid her to sleep in their bed.

Hey, Obviously you don't know about GOB rule #5..... Friends don't let friends drive drunk! 

Also rule #2..... Mi Casa remolque es su Casa remolque!
 
GOB

[ghost of moon goddess]

It is only over the course of time that we  know (for sure?!) if we have married the ones we can't live without or the ones we just can live with. (IMO)

[Kuna]

OK... huge brain dump coming which was attached to another post but I've separated it out to not confuse DP (it doesn't relate to her.. thus posting it separately.)   


 I think I've told this story here before....
 
 When single I lived in my city but commuted to Sydney for work each week.  It gets boring so I'd go out with mates for a few drinks or dinner.
 
 One night I was having a laugh and joke with a girl in an upmarket bar/club and she came out and said, "Look, I think you're really funny and you're a great guy, but I don't want to waste anyone's time.  How much do you earn?"

 
 
 I was SHOCKED!  I'd dated dozens and dozens of women... maybe hundreds over the 10 years I'd been "not married" and I'd never been asked that.  I simply didn't know what to say.
 

A few months later at a different bar the same sort of thing happened and for just a nanosecond I was surprised... 

This girl (Very attractive and probably 10+ years younger than me)  asked me the exact same question in the exact same way. 

I immediately replied, "Hey,  I totally understand.  I'm sick of wasting time too.  I wanted to ask you something similar so let's not waste anyone's time... Tell me,  if I earn enough are you prepared to come back to my hotel tonight and do "XYZ" to me?"
 
 Well - this girl almost passed out in shock as she went reeling backwards.  Wasn't I the biggest b@stard she'd ever met???  How dare I ask her that!!!
 
 Needless to say I didn't get a chance to tell her my income.   

 
 Sydney, and I guess most big cities (Moscow, NYC, etc) tends to breed greed...  People can be rude and they think nothing of it - almost like they are entitled to be rude.

Anyway, a few months later virtually the same thing happened to me AGAIN (and back in the first bar), but this time I was a little smarter than last time.  I told the truth... she asked more questions about my home,  suburb I live in, what car a drive,  what holidays I take...  within an hour I had company in my hotel and she had her "prospect".
 
 Of course these things never last if you're half smart.  Money is important,  but if it's too important then the relationship is not "real enough" for me...  it's just a deal... but each to their own.


I "do deals" on a daily basis... it's how I make money.  I make deals with staff... I make deals with my directors and my board".... I make deals with customers... I make deals with suppliers...  but none of those are permanent.

I cut and burn when I have to... I nurture and foster when it's required.  It's a deal... it's money... it's easy to do and I feel little at either end of the spectrum.  "It's just business... move on..."
 
 I honestly don't have a problem with the concept of trading up but men and women who are obsessed with the wrong qualities in a partner are not the type of people I could bond with.  In a relationship I want MORE.
 
 
 There was a poster in here a while ago that kept on going on about the quality of women's teeth.  His primary concern seemed to be the quality of their teeth and whether they would need work done when they got to the USA.  This was not about whether their teeth LOOKED GOOD, it was about whether she was going to be racking up dental bills after arriving in the USA.

When I decided I wanted my wife I was not thinking about how much she would cost me to support.  The cost of her healthcare and her well-being is not even a consideration.  Maybe in the US (or maybe with men who can't afford it) they need to think about these things - but in my mind if that is the case they really should just find a nice girl at home and make it easy on themselves.

If someone is THAT WORRIED about the cost just date at home... and if a woman is THAT WORRIED about having "enough"money from her husband, just stay in FSU and try your luck there!

Yeah,  we need to consider the costs AND women need to consider security - but if it's such a high priority just play it safe... stay at home... be happy with what you've got!
 
 
 
 A woman should be sure that a man can support her (or a family) but to do as DP did and put a figure on it like "the top 10%" is just stupid.  A man being in the top 10% of income earners gives you no indication of his financial position.  Likewise her feeble analysis of public records also give no true insight into a man's financial position - so this "service" she offers women is worthless, and is probably misleading.
 
 
 I wonder how DP and others would feel if men were here saying some of the things that some may even be thinking.
 
 Billy Bob might say, "Before I would ever enter into a relationship with a woman I would have to be certain she'd be prepared to do X, Y and Z in bed...  Even if she doesn't like it she must be prepared to do it - if we decide to get married she might learn to enjoy it over time. I would disqualify ANY woman who was not prepared to comply with my fetishes...  my needs are far too important!"

Is that reasonable?  Is it really so different form a woman looking for a man in the top 10% of money earners?
 
 
 The absence of values is one of the greatest ills I see in life.  If people lack the emotional capacity to reason,  try to understand,  bond with their partners, share, trust and be prepared to make a lifelong commitment based on the health and goodness of their bond - then I would be very concerned for them.
 
 The concept of someone marrying without love, and seeing if love emerges is just wrong.  It doesn't matter what anyone says... perhaps it's because I have Christian beliefs... and try to live by Christian values.  While I'm not perfect by any means, I could not promise to "Love, Honour and Cherish" someone publicly if I didn't feel that way.

How much passion can be in vows that say, "I promise to provide, humour and keep an open mind"?
 

 Maybe marriage to a FSU (or to a WM from the women's side) is "just a deal" for some people.  Maybe not even a deal... maybe some are happy to make it a gamble.
 
 For me...  I simply could not have married someone I didn't love,  or someone who I wasn't certain loved me.
 
 For those that do so...  I have no idea what else you would compromise on.

If you're happy your wife might have married you without loving you are you even slightly mindful of what else she is compromising on... and if you're not... you're a fool!  Why just this one compromise - if the most intimate bond can be "just a deal", why shouldn't something else be "just business"?
 
 Culturally we're all different... but every man and every woman has the same basic needs.
 
 We can learn a lot from Maslow's heirarchy of needs if we care to be honest.

Maybe we can dispute the importance or value placed on certain elements on the pyramid...  but ultimately we all need the basics, we need safety and security, WE NEED LOVE and a sense of belonging...  we need a healthy rounded life.

A relationship based on a deal where either partner has to compromise on their needs is not a healthy one IMHO.


That being said,  there's a lot of scumbags out there marrying FSUW and we know there are many dishonest women.  I guess we can only hope the dishonest women find the scumbags and they both leave decent people alone.


*getting off soap box*

 

[BC]

The concept of someone marrying without love, and seeing if love emerges is just wrong.  It doesn't matter what anyone says... perhaps it's because I have Christian beliefs... and try to live by Christian values.  While I'm not perfect by any means, I could not promise to "Love, Honour and Cherish" someone publicly if I didn't feel that way.

How much passion can be in vows that say, "I promise to provide, humour and keep an open mind"?
 

 Maybe marriage to a FSU (or to a WM from the women's side) is "just a deal" for some people.  Maybe not even a deal... maybe some are happy to make it a gamble.
 
 For me...  I simply could not have married someone I didn't love,  or someone who I wasn't certain loved me.

Kuna,

Such is usually the case within the realm of normal dating and relationships.. girl meets boy, they date for a few months, move in together for a while and eventually get married when a stable and mutually satisfying environment has been achieved.

WM / FSUW couples rarely follow this most natural of courses, often lacking the time and or funds to complete the process.  The 'wrong' you describe is maybe a 'necessary evil' in this context, indeed a compromise.  Par for the course..

As far as economics goes, like it or not it remains a big motivational factor.. the only thing that has really changed over the years is that after the fall of the SU, probably anything was more acceptable than what was happening at home for many young ladies.. thus little or no real need to evaluate deep economic factors.. Electricity 24/7, stocked stores, running hot water and a heated flat may have been enough incentive for many.  I don't blame them, especially the ladies with kids to take care of as the options were pretty bleak.

Those times are long gone, at least as far as RU goes where the standard of living has dramatically gone up.  UA and other FSU countries still lag a bit evidenced by agencies and social tour operators that have concentrated the majority of their their efforts in UA etc instead of RU.

I sense that FSUW now have more understanding of the west and have a desire for - and even deserve - more information before leaping.

Competition for the best caveman hunter was probably pretty fierce.. that instinct hasn't changed a bit east or west...  Normalna..

[Muzh]

 One night I was having a laugh and joke with a girl in an upmarket bar/club and she came out and said, "Look, I think you're really funny and you're a great guy, but I don't want to waste anyone's time.  How much do you earn?"

 
 

My, it seems that great whites are not only in the great barrier reef.

Happened to me once and my response was quick and right to the point: "Obviously not enough IF you are asking me."

 I honestly don't have a problem with the concept of trading up but men and women who are obsessed with the wrong qualities in a partner are not the type of people I could bond with.  In a relationship I want MORE.
 
 There was a poster in here a while ago that kept on going on about the quality of women's teeth.  His primary concern seemed to be the quality of their teeth and whether they would need work done when they got to the USA.  This was not about whether their teeth LOOKED GOOD, it was about whether she was going to be racking up dental bills after arriving in the USA.

When I decided I wanted my wife I was not thinking about how much she would cost me to support.  The cost of her healthcare and her well-being is not even a consideration.  Maybe in the US (or maybe with men who can't afford it) they need to think about these things - but in my mind if that is the case they really should just find a nice girl at home and make it easy on themselves.

If someone is THAT WORRIED about the cost just date at home... and if a woman is THAT WORRIED about having "enough"money from her husband, just stay in FSU and try your luck there!

Yeah,  we need to consider the costs AND women need to consider security - but if it's such a high priority just play it safe... stay at home... be happy with what you've got!
 

Not disagreeing with you at all. But, have you noticed that when a man in these forums asks to protect his finances via a prenup, many agree that it is a no brainer? IOW, how much it is NOT going to cost me? Just saying.

A woman should be sure that a man can support her (or a family) but to do as DP did and put a figure on it like "the top 10%" is just stupid.  A man being in the top 10% of income earners gives you no indication of his financial position.  Likewise her feeble analysis of public records also give no true insight into a man's financial position - so this "service" she offers women is worthless, and is probably misleading.

I doubt very much that a sane woman would leave everything behind to marry a guy and live under a bridge, so yes, I strongly believe that the finances should be there. Top 10%? That's gravy.

I'll relate my experience based on what my SIL told me. My wife dumped a local guy who had money, a lot more than I had. The reason she dumped him was because all he thought about was making money. (This part I heard from my wife later.) I was just a crazy guy not thinking in real terms but was extremely romantic and she fell for that. Her words.

I don't think there has been a word of regret in almost 13 years.

 The absence of values is one of the greatest ills I see in life.  If people lack the emotional capacity to reason,  try to understand,  bond with their partners, share, trust and be prepared to make a lifelong commitment based on the health and goodness of their bond - then I would be very concerned for them.
 

Amen.

The concept of someone marrying without love, and seeing if love emerges is just wrong. 

That's what happened to me and the ex.

[Misha]

I'm not convinced she was in love with him. ... Most likely she was in love with her own idea of relocating abroad ...

 


We all know such people. One example was a woman from Ukraine who married a local. We first saw them at a local dinner and dance. The first thing my wife said when she saw her was: it is all for show. She figured that she was trying too hard and there was no love. In Ukraine, he told her that he was a businessman, she thus thought he was rich, but the business was a small business barely breaking even. Now, she is getting divorced looking for a bigger and better deal...

[GQBlues]

...As far as economics goes, like it or not it remains a big motivational factor...

Well of course it is. Otherwise we'd all be talking about British, French, Swedish women et al. The fact the women involved in the bride industry hailed from economically challenged countries didn't happen by coincidence.
 
I'm not sure why some of these men are so caught up in denying this very simple and basic reality.
 

[ML]

I'm not sure why some of these men are so caught up in denying this very simple and basic reality.

Quite elementary Dr. Watson.

It is not pleasing on the ego.

We are muscular, masculine, intellectual, handsome stud muffins with humorous and pleasing personalities.  These women would go for us even if we were dirt poor and they were wealthy.

Don't be insinuating otherwise.   

[BC]

Well of course it is. Otherwise we'd all be talking about British, French, Swedish women et al. The fact the women involved in the bride industry hailed from economically challenged countries didn't happen by coincidence.
 
I'm not sure why some of these men are so caught up in denying this very simple and basic reality.

Actually southern Spain was the place I really wanted to return to.  Fate however dictated otherwise and I got sideswiped by my RW while visiting other countries.

I really do think that a more natural course of events will work out best in the long term.. but hey that's just me.. plenty of 'exceptions' declare otherwise, some successful but I think the overall majority may not find the 'ride' that comfortable.

I think once men start thinking about RW they inherently put on a set of blinders, ignoring what is available around them, limiting their view and passing up good opportunities chasing that ultimate mirage.

Although many here may not accept DP's efforts to clarify aspects of AM/RW relationships, I do find that the more recent posts do begin to merge with her thoughts and theory.  In fact I no longer see great disagreement.

It is a small world after all...