Realistic Expectations

[Eduard]

Choosing the right Russian womanSome Western men who set out to find a Russian woman for marriage are not being very realistic when they start contacting girls who are much younger and have the looks that are way out of a guy's league.  I have already talked about age disparity in the previous blog, but picking a "believable" Russian woman match for yourself in regards to appearance is also very important. Generally it doesn't make sense when a balding, 70 lbs. overweight, out of shape 50 or 60 year old guy is seeing with a gorgeous, model-like 22 year old girl on his arm. Sure, anything is possible and there will always be exceptions to the rule, and if you have the fame and fortune of some one like Woody Allen you may have a beautiful young girl fall in love with your persona. However most of us have to be a bit more realistic in our expectations and as a rule choosing a more believable woman (whether it is a Russian woman or not) will yield much better results in regards to both finding and maintaining a relationship with a Russian woman.
You must forget the old "All Russian women want to get out of their country and come to America" way of thinking. No one wants to get out of Russia any longer and you are not doing any Russian woman a favor by bringing her to the USA, Canada or another Western country. In fact having to relocate to another country to be with you is usually a negative for a Russian woman. Imagine how tough it is for a Russian woman to come to your country! She has to leave her family and friends, quit her career, leave her entire support system behind and come to a completely unfamiliar place where they speak a different language, the  culture is different and where she doesn't know any one. She will have to completely rely and depend on her man for everything in the beginning. This wouldn't be easy for any woman or man.
Think about this in real life terms. When you are looking at a photo of a Russian woman, ask yourself: "Would a local woman who looks like this go out with me and possibly marry me?" If the answer is "No way!" what makes you think that a Russian woman would?
While in the West (N. America, Western Europe) we are experiencing a deficit of good looking, slim, single, feminine (not feminist), marriage minded, family oriented women the situation is a 180 degrees in reverse in the countries of the former Soviet Union (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, etc.). They are experiencing a huge deficit of single, decent, non-drinking, not abusive, marriage minded, family oriented men. There is a large number of Russian women who have absolutely no chance of ever getting married and having a family of their own unless they significantly lower their standards...
Unlike Western women, Russian women are not spoiled by the availability of many single, reasonably attractive, marriage minded men around, so they don't set their standards as high as the women in the Western countries, and if they do find a good guy that they like they generally tend to hold on to him, unlike Western women who in many cases like to continue looking around, "exploring other options" and basically looking for "A better deal".
This disparity in the ratio between sexes makes it relatively easy for Western men to find much better quality women in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other FSU countries than they could find locally, where they live. But keeping it realistic and not trying to marry a Russian woman who is way out of your league is strongly advised.
The rule of thumb that I suggest to my clients is to not go more than a couple of steps above of the women they normally date at home. For instance if you date women who are 4 and 5 (on the scale of 1 to 10) you can easily find a wonderful Russian woman who is a 6 or a 7. Looking for a 9 or a 10 wouldn't be very realistic.  If you are dating 6s and 7s at home you can easily find 8s and 9s in Russia who will be happy to date and marry you later.
Too many Western men who are quite average in looks and everything else think that somehow they have this imaginary "special value" because they can provide a Russian woman the way to citizenship in his country. This way of thinking is flawed and dangerous, because you just might get what you wish for - a nowdays rare woman who for some reason is interested in obtaining citizenship in your country and will use you as a stepping stone.

[Eduard]

Another important factor in looking for a Russian wife is having realistic goals and expectations as far as age.
 Keeping the age gap within reason is one area where a lot of men fail. I realise that when you guys go on mail order bride agency sites you see many Young, sexy 20 year old beauties in their bikinis who say in their profile that they are looking for a man up to 50 or 60 years old. Pahleeeze!!! Don’t believe the hype! This is not real. You are being sold a fantasy, it’s that simple. First of all a single, beautiful 20 year old wouldn’t even be interested in marriage in most cases, particularly to a foreigner. She is most likely in school, thinking of her future career and has 10 local, good looking young guys chasing after her. You are just helping her to put herself through school. Most single girls don’t start thinking about marriage until age 25 or older.
 The vast majority of women on local Russian dating sites, that do not cater to foreign men, set their desired partner's age parameters within 5 to 10 year age gap. Surely if a man is very good looking and is in great shape some women might accept a wider age gap – 15 and even 20 or more years but those would be more of an exception, not the rule. If you set your age gap expectations within 5 to 15 years you’ll have a much better chance of finding a good match, and a relationship that will last.

[mendeleyev]

+ 10

[GoodOlBoy]

If you set your age gap expectations within 5 to 15 years you’ll have a much better chance of finding a good match, and a relationship that will last.

I quite agree with your assessment Eduard.
 
However. (using your search parameters) that would mean that some of our more "senior" members here should be chasing seeking RW 55 or 60 years old. 
 
Color GOB stupid, but he doesn't think this will ever happen.
 
Some time ago, I was given some sage advice here by an RWD member (Ecocks) whom I personally have a great deal of respect for.

I will pass his advice on to you Eduard: "Do not disturb the fantasy." 
 
GOB

[noelscot]

You must forget the old "All Russian women want to get out of their country and come to America" way of thinking. No one wants to get out of Russia any longer and you are not doing any Russian woman a favor by bringing her to the USA, Canada or another Western country.

I agree with about 99.9% of what you wrote, but I'd like to comment on the folks who let the fantasy over-rule reality.



Dishonest people are easier to con. An honest person will say, "This is too good to be true" and walk away. A dishonest person lies to himself and gets stuck in a web of self-deceit. "To thine own self be true." With that said, they are still coming over here because Russia sucks. To put it bluntly. Russia has not gone through some sort of Golden Age, and none of us got the memo. Most folks cannot even afford vodka, but rather samogon, and I have it on good authority, from an actual Russian lady (American citizen) I lived with, who said, she would never have left Russia if it was not a horrible place to live. In fact, social and economic conditions were here primary motive for leaving; in addition to a hidalgo type class that limited people's advancement, much like in Mexico. She had just gotten back from Russia after divorcing an American, in fact, and risked all sorts of uncertainty by coming back. Let me clarify: She left her family, who are well off, TWICE. TWICE. Because she said Russia is a bad place to live. Sure there are multiple viewpoints. Some places may be better. She lived in a major city, not some backwater village, and she still hated it. I personally think Russia has lots of hope and I like their culture and people, but last I checked, they are still leaving to GET AWAY from Russia. I do not think there is anything at all wrong with that, either. If USA sucked, I would expect American women to do whatever it took to get out. I think there is still room in that entire process for a great marriage to be formed, because the men are no angels in this thing, either, they are swooping in with the big American dollars in the hopes of trading up and getting a hotter chick than they can get over here. It's mutual gain, which is good for both parties. As long as everyone is happy, great.

[mocheese]

Ed,


As always you provide good advice! 


So to those men who believe they are exceptions to what you are writing, I can say that exceptions do exist, but they becoming fewer and fewer. 

[mocheese]

She left her family, who are well off, TWICE. TWICE. Because she said Russia is a bad place to live.

noelscot,


Yes, some people do leave because they do not like there situation, but do you want to marry such a person as you then always have to wonder why she really married you.  Also, if you were to ask my wife, she'll agree that Russia has problems, but she'll also tell you that a person can have have a good life there. 


So then it's good to find a lady who does not mind her life there and just have her fall in love with you and if she does, then she'll follow you to the ends of the world or in my case to St. Louis which my wife calls a nice little village.

[ML]

No one wants to get out of Russia any longer . . .

Most of your advice is good.

But surely you must know that this statement of yours CANNOT be true.

[noelscot]

noelscot,


Yes, some people do leave because they do not like their situation, but do you want to marry such a person as you then always have to wonder why she really married you?

A better question is, If I met a USA girl from the country (village to FSU folks), and we liked one another, and it just so happened that she'd been trying to meet a man from the city to get out of the country, am I going to split hairs that she had motives to leave the country and was not being selfless? People are selfish, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just because there is mutual gain to be had, that does not mean that there cannot be a great relationship/marriage/family...three dogs and a cat, whatever. I'm not hating on the men or women in this thing. Google "Paul Crik Killin' It: This is it. **** it. It is what it is." That's how I feel about it. 

[sniper]

Yes, some people do leave because they do not like there situation, but do you want to marry such a person as you then always have to wonder why she really married you. 

Following this, marrying someone richer/younger/more attractive will eventually result in wondering why he/she married me. If you always have to wonder why she/he married you it just simply means you are insecure. Thats my opinion.

[Ade]

noelscot,


Yes, some people do leave because they do not like there situation, but do you want to marry such a person as you then always have to wonder why she really married you.  Also, if you were to ask my wife, she'll agree that Russia has problems, but she'll also tell you that a person can have have a good life there. 


So then it's good to find a lady who does not mind her life there and just have her fall in love with you and if she does, then she'll follow you to the ends of the world or in my case to St. Louis which my wife calls a nice little village.

I agree. Not all people have a crappy life in Russia. Some have a very good life. Others just have a normal life with the usual ups and downs you'll find anywhere. And not all people leave Russia because they are fleeing poverty or because they think it's an awful country, in the same way that I didn't have those reasons when I moved out of the UK 20 years ago. A lot of my wife's family have a good life. Some are quite successful. Perhaps they are the lucky ones, or perhaps they are just an average family from her area. Sure, we know quite poor people there too that are long term friends of her and her family; salt of the earth, awesome people they are too. And yes, they live in relative poverty, and most Western guys would probably describe their lives as "crappy" but you know what? Most are happy. Happy in a way I and people around me were when I grew up in a poor community. Material wealth is not a mandatory ingredient for happiness.

But my wife understands that Russia has problems, and let's be honest, how many countries don't to various degrees? I would suggest that for those guys still searching, the ideal is to find a woman that is realistic about her country but doesn't hate it and is not desperate to leave; sure, you can definitely find love with a woman like that but it complicates motivations and it may colour her perceptions so she will choose to be with someone she normally wouldn't which, even if done unwittingly, is not a recipe for long term success.

For those that would like to see more of "real" Russia, a good start is "Russia - A Journey With Jonathan Dimbleby". It's been aired on some BBC channels but you can pick it up on Amazon too; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russia-Journey-Jonathan-Dimbleby-Complete/dp/B0015MTC2E It's not perfect, he misses a lot and could have focused far more on Western Russia which is so diverse and populous, but it does give some insight into both the new wealthy and the rural peasant in modern day Russia.

[mendeleyev]

Ed, great assessment, as always.

I think ML's point is well taken if we're using "Russian" in a generic sense as is so common in describing the FSU.

In the Soviet days many people would have loved to leave but were afraid to say as much. In the 1990s and early 2000s folks who could leave found a way.

Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, etc, are not "Russia" and in that case ML is also correct.

In Russia today we're full on with a new era in which the small number wishing to leave are largely made up of those who have money and want to have a home in London and/or California along with the tax advantages their job-creating capital enjoys.

Even in places like Shakhty, a coal mining town out in the sticks of the Rostov area (see a related post in the elections pages) where severe stagnation crippled the local population for decades, things are getting better. For the first time in a long while the population grew over a 10 year period and jobs are returning to the region as production of building tiles now competes with coal mining for the best jobs.

The number of folks who wish to leave for a better future has dried to a trickle--in Russia. However that may again change over the next 12-18 months as events play out with the presidential election in March and whatever events transpire thereafter.


The same story of stability however is not playing so well in places like Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, for example. In many of those places the lack of hope any time soon on the horizon does create classes of people more willing to leave. Each country holds some breathtaking women but the danger of thinking you're rescued someone is that once you "purchase" love, you've only proved that the person was available for a price and you just happened to be high bidder at the time. That doesn't shield anyone from future auctions and once for sale, always for sale is sometimes the case.

So we come back to the sage advice of the experienced: time, time, and more time are the most sure ways to make certain that you've created a "merger of hearts" rather than a purchase of assets.

[mocheese]

A better question is, If I met a USA girl from the country (village to FSU folks), and we liked one another, and it just so happened that she'd been trying to meet a man from the city to get out of the country, am I going to split hairs that she had motives to leave the country and was not being selfless? People are selfish, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just because there is mutual gain to be had, that does not mean that there cannot be a great relationship/marriage/family...three dogs and a cat, whatever. I'm not hating on the men or women in this thing. Google "Paul Crik Killin' It: This is it. **** it. It is what it is." That's how I feel about it. 

Truth in your comments, but I'd still recommend finding someone who is happy with their life and not looking for someone to change it, as there is never any guarantee that the grass is really greener on the other side of the fence. 

[mocheese]

The number of folks who wish to leave for a better future has dried to a trickle--in Russia. However that may again change over the next 12-18 months as events play out with the presidential election in March and whatever events transpire thereafter.

Mendy,
 
I would not disagree with you about the number of people concerned about the future, but what surprises me is the demographic which is voicing this openly as I'm surprised by the number of my wife's friends and ex-coworkers who have voiced such thoughts as most all would be considered to have a comfortable upper middle-class lifestyle. 

[Eduard]

So we come back to the sage advice of the experienced: time, time, and more time are the most sure ways to make certain that you've created a "merger of hearts" rather than a purchase of assets.

I couldn't have said it better, Jim!
I think that this new reality cause the mail order bride industry to mostly go into the full mode of selling fantasy. Not a lot of women who are genuinely interested in actively searching for a foreign husband. On the other hand it makes things a lot easier for the guys who can connect with the women who are outside of the agency circuit. In the vast majority of cases the only reason they will talk to a guy and agree to get to know him better is because they genuinely like him without having an ulterior motive.

[CanadaMan]

You must forget the old "All Russian women want to get out of their country and come to America" way of thinking. No one wants to get out of Russia any longer and you are not doing any Russian woman a favor by bringing her to the USA, Canada or another Western country.

Most of the advice/info given has been spot on.
I do however have a different opinion on the quote above.
I think you would agree that there was just a touch of hyperbole in your statements.

You state two extremes:
First, the old way of thinking was that ALL Russian women want to get out. That never was true. Obviously not ALL.

Second, you state that NO ONE wants to get out of Russia now.
That is obviously not true either.

I am in touch with a number of Russian/FSU women in their 40's-50's.

What I say may surprise you, but it is the truth.

Each woman had no problem coming out in their first correspondence to tell me point blank, that they are interested in leaving their country.
They said this without my asking or prompting in any way!

Many of these women also have few ties remaining in their country.
Their kids are grown and starting to be independent.
Most of their parents have passed away.
Many are single children themselves.

Perhaps I have simply picked a poor sample of FSU women.
But in my case at least, a clear pattern has emerged which is almost predictable now.

[Eduard]

sure, when I said "no one" I meant the vast, overwhelming majority". Surely there are always people that are unhappy with the country they live in. I've met several Americans that told me how they would love to get out of this "terrible" country... and that was about 10 years ago!!!! LOL Off course when I asked them if they had ever travelled anywhere outside of the US the answer was  "NO"...

[CanadaMan]

... Surely there are always people that are unhappy with the country they live in.

Just my luck that every FSU woman I have been in touch with presently, fits into this category. 

[Faux Pas]

Just my luck that every FSU woman I have been in touch with presently, fits into this category. 

Maybe more consideration should be given to the avenues that you are meeting these particular women. If you are meeting them on east/west dating sites or agencies it would stand to reason that most of those ladies have already answered that question for themselves and don't mind sharing it?

Eduard was (I understood) to be speaking in generalities. I know personally quite a few single women in Russia of varied ages. None that I know of are looking for an escape and most are not looking for a foreign partner. In fact they seem quite happy and content with their lives. I do think most of those would consider leaving for the right man. What appears to be a hard scrabble existence to us, is just normal routine to most RW and nothing "worthy" of escaping from. I suspect it's all about perception over the reality

[CanadaMan]

Maybe more consideration should be given to the avenues that you are meeting these particular women. If you are meeting them on east/west dating sites or agencies it would stand to reason that most of those ladies have already answered that question for themselves and don't mind sharing it?

I wasn't complaining. I was stating I was lucky!
If the opposite was the case (they weren't interested in leaving their country) I wouldn't be interested in pursuing a relationship with them.

Pretty much all of the women I have corresponded with have let me know at some point that they were interested in leaving their country.

It's just that recently, I have noticed they are telling me this, on their own, and almost immediately.

[GQBlues]

Considering a couple of factors: there is 'some' truth in the statement only very few Russians are interested in leaving Russia these days -  at least from the Fiance/e visa standpoint based on the 2010 data. Of the 30,400+ fiancee visa issued FY10, only 651 are from Russia (720 Ukraine). Heck, even the UK surpassed the number for both countries at 975. Give Uzbekistan credit as they only had 47. Uzbek women leave for looooove. Meaning, only a few Uzbek women have fascination for really old men.
 
Factoring also that Russia these days enjoy a whoping 88% of non-immigrant visa approval rate as seemingly this alone have likely further added to the near demise of the Russian-borne bride industry. Of course, it doesn't mean that the rate shown also meant they all went back to Russia at their visa expiry date. There's more than a few that are searching for the young and the willing sexy US Kens while in-country, instead of having to marry agency-hog Joe Loser like in the old days of yore.
 
Either that or the US is running out of middle-aged, overweight petitioners, and/or the social misfits that has Slavic persuasion.
 
So I believe the best advice these days is, yes, expect reality.

[Faux Pas]

I wasn't complaining. I was stating I was lucky!
If the opposite was the case (they weren't interested in leaving their country) I wouldn't be interested in pursuing a relationship with them.

Pretty much all of the women I have corresponded with have let me know at some point that they were interested in leaving their country.

It's just that recently, I have noticed they are telling me this, on their own, and almost immediately.

I wasn't making any assumptions here Canadaman.  My guess is that most ladies that put themselves out there for a foreign relationship have already come to terms with the idea of leaving regardless of what her actual reason is.

You didn't mention where you contacted these forthcoming women but, I don't see their admission as unexpected. Wouldn't you guess that's a question most men at some point ask?

[Eduard]

I wasn't complaining. I was stating I was lucky!
If the opposite was the case (they weren't interested in leaving their country) I wouldn't be interested in pursuing a relationship with them.

Pretty much all of the women I have corresponded with have let me know at some point that they were interested in leaving their country.

It's just that recently, I have noticed they are telling me this, on their own, and almost immediately.

You must be talking to MOB agency women. I agree with FP's post. None of the women my guys talk to ever said that they would like to leave Russia. If they did, that would be a big red flag for me as to what their true motives are. We've talked to a few women who mentioned that they thought about it but could never do it unless they really fell in love with the right guy.

[CanadaMan]

You must be talking to MOB agency women. I agree with FP's post. None of the women my guys talk to ever said that they would like to leave Russia.

I'm talking to women from the sites that ML frequently posts here.
As I said,  almost every one is not only saying they would like to leave, but is saying it without my asking and usually in the first or second communication.
But all is good. If they didn't volunteer this, I would have asked them soon after and not gone any further had they not intended to leave.

I guess we fish in different lakes? 

[Donna_Pedro]

never have left Russia if it was not a horrible place to live.

I do not have any respect for people who talk bad about the country they were born and raised. Russia is a wonderful place to live. There are not enough decent men to get married.