Divorced RW experience of dating in the US.

[Misha]

When you invest, do you buy stocks from every company in the hopes of finding a few good performers, and then dumping all the junk stocks?  Of course not.  You do research and due diligence, and only buy into the most promising stocks.  Why would you invest your time and emotions any differently?

Even if you do due diligence, some of the companies you buy will go bankrupt and some that you thought were not worth investing in will make billions. You can't however get to know a woman without dating.

[size=78%]I find it ironic that when a FSUW dates many men, she gets called a pro-dater, yet somehow you imply that a double standard is ok.  [/size]
Where I come from, we call women who try to date many men tramps, or worse.  We call guys who try to date many women players, man-whores, dogs, etc.

Where do you come from?!? I do hope you understand that a date is not sex. It can be as simple as meeting someone for a coffee.

Trying to date many people in the hopes of finding someone special is known as playing the field.  Most folks are wise enough to recognize that players are NOT the quality of people that will provide a serious relationship.  It doesn't matter if it is a girl player or a guy player - you won't get a serious relationship from them.

I have to say, you have an odd definition of dating. So, what is your ideal? You tell the people at your local church that you want to get married and you then meet your future wife at the altar? Most people are wise enough to understand that a date is not simply about sex, it is not about being a player, it is simply a meeting with someone to spend time with them. It can be a simple as a walk in a park or going to see a movie.

Would you encourage your sister, your daughter, or a close friends daughter to date a guy who tries to date as many girls as he can?  I can't speak for anyone else, but I have far too much class and respect for women to do that.  For me to suggest that a girl was compatible for dating with a player would be to say that girl herself was a slut/hoe/tramp.

Honestly, I would say that it is perfectly normal. I don't see women who date men as sluts or hoes or tramps 

Dating websites foster an environment conducive to players, not an environment conducive to building serious relationships.

I met my wife on a dating website, so are you saying that we don't have a relationship   

You're not following my logic, or anyone elses logic.  What you are suggesting is illogical.

To be honest, I do see the logic in what you are saying. How exactly are you supposed to jump directly from not knowing a woman to a relationship without having at least one date in between. Unless it is an arranged marriage where you meet your bride on your wedding day, I don't really see how this can be dome...

The church folks pre-screen possible dates for compatibility, to increase the likelihood that you will click.  They won't introduce you to a player - they will recognize the player lacks serious intentions.

How exactly do they "pre-screen" for compatibility?

Odds are, if you don't click with a match your friends set up, that will make them try even harder to find a better match for you.  Of course, if you set unrealistic expectations, they will likely not do any looking for you.

Ah, so you do date... But using your logic, if you don't click you are a "player"...

You see, friends have a vested interest in your happiness.  Dating websites have no vested interest in your happiness.  For that reason alone, having friends trying to introduce you to someone will always have a better chance at success than a dating website.

The thing is, I had a vested interest in my happiness and I was the best judge of who was a compatible match for me. I could thus date women and eventually find one to marry. Dating sites were perfectly fine for me.

 

Do you know what I hear when I read your words?

If you have a problem, solve it yourself.  Do NOT ask me for anything.  If you can't solve whatever problem you have by yourself, go get someone else to help you.  Do NOT ask me to help you with anything.  I am too selfish to care about any needs you might have.

I believe in striving to solve my own problems. Never knew that was such a bad character trait 

A marriage or serious relationship should be based upon what you WILL do for your partner - basing it upon what you won't do for each other is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.  If you are unwilling to try to meet the needs of someone you are dating, the problem is not them - the problem is you.

Where exactly did I say that I won't do anything for my wife. All I am saying is that normal well-adjusted people can use dating websites, date, find a good partner, enter into a relationship and if they find the right person get married. True, I did say is that a man should deal with his own issues, resolve them, and not expect a woman on the first date to heal him... 

[Bee Farmer]

Even if you do due diligence, some of the companies you buy will go bankrupt and some that you thought were not worth investing in will make billions. You can't however get to know a woman without dating.

It's true on the stocks, but if you do a lot of research and be very selective, usually your winners will amortize your losers.

I disagree that you can't get to know a lady without dating.  It's called courtship.  Courtship and dating are not the same thing.

Where do you come from?!? I do hope you understand that a date is not sex. It can be as simple as meeting someone for a coffee.

I come from the Midwestern US.  Some call it the Bible belt.  Technically, the original definition of a date is an appointment with a prostitute.

So, what is your ideal? You tell the people at your local church that you want to get married and you then meet your future wife at the altar?

Of course not, and what you suggest is insulting.  If one wanted friends at church to help them find someone suitable for marriage, you would not just tell them you wanted to get married.  You would also tell them the criteria you were looking for.  The friends at church only help compile a list of potential suitors, and then also help screen them for unsuitable matches.  They would narrow the list down, and allow you to make the final decision if you were interested in trying to build a relationship with any of them.  You are allowed to reject all the possible matches.  You are not forced or obligated to accept any.  They just help you determine who is available, and help you screen out the unsuitables.

Most people are wise enough to understand that a date is not simply about sex, it is not about being a player, it is simply a meeting with someone to spend time with them. It can be a simple as a walk in a park or going to see a movie.

In Western cultures, dates most definitely ARE about sex, and most people in Western culture do know that.
Spending time with someone and getting to know them is part of courtship, something people in Western culture often have very little knowledge of.
Do not confuse dating with courtship.  FSUW are looking for courtship - they are not looking for Western dating.

I don't see women who date men as sluts or hoes or tramps

Perhaps you have a misguided view of what Western dating is.  Sluts, hoes, and tramps are all common words for prostitutes - and Western dating has many similarities with prostitution.  (especially considering the word date originated with prostitution, and did not become corrupted and interchanged with courtship until sex started being common during courtship.)

I met my wife on a dating website, so are you saying that we don't have a relationship

No.  I suggest you read what I wrote and stop trying to put lies in my mouth.
Your profile lists you as being from Canada, Misha.  I assume that English is your first language?  If English is a second language to you, I can understand you having difficulties in understanding and I will try to explain it better. 

Do you understand what the words "conducive" and "foster" mean?
Conducive - Making a certain situation or outcome likely or possible.
Foster - to promote the growth or development of; further; encourage

Simply put, this means to stack the odds in your favor.  Dating websites do not stack the odds in your favor for building a serious relationship.  This does not mean that a serious relationship can not result from a dating website.  It can happen, but the odds are much better that a serious relationship will not result.

To be honest, I do see the logic in what you are saying. How exactly are you supposed to jump directly from not knowing a woman to a relationship without having at least one date in between. Unless it is an arranged marriage where you meet your bride on your wedding day, I don't really see how this can be dome...

Courtship.  It's completely different from dating.

How exactly do they "pre-screen" for compatibility?

Are you being facetious or are you serious?  Considering that they will have personal knowledge of the person's characteristics and traits and can make a judgement based upon those things, I will assume that you are being facetious.

Ah, so you do date... But using your logic, if you don't click you are a "player"...

I prefer to court, rather than to date.
No, you are not using my logic.  I will be honest Misha.  Your claims of following my logic are quite offensive and insulting.  Please stop.
Anyone following my logic would understand that if you meet someone, and do not click - and you create a pattern of meeting people and not clicking - the problem is you and not them.  The problem is that you are not being selective enough prior to going out with them.  When you continue meeting people and not developing a serious relationship, and you do not make changes - that is when you become a "player".
If someone doesn't want to turn into a player, when they recognize they are not having the results they desire - they stop trying to meet people until they make some changes in their life.

Then again, if you just want to go out, and you have no intentions of it ever developing into a serious relationship, that would also make someone a player.  You are leading the other person on, which is dishonest.

I believe in striving to solve my own problems. Never knew that was such a bad character trait 

Everything in moderation is ok.  Partnerships are never one sided, and when you are in a relationship, problems become "our" problems and are no longer "my own problems".  It's rather difficult to be a lone individual with a partner. 

Where exactly did I say that I won't do anything for my wife.

You didn't.  Please don't imply that I said that.  It's rude and ill mannered.
You made it quite clear that you said you would not do those things for a potential wife. 

True, I did say is that a man should deal with his own issues, resolve them, and not expect a woman on the first date to heal him...

There is a big difference between soothing a wound or applying a salve, and doing the actual healing.

I fear there is a communication problem here, and I'm not sure why Misha.  You seem to be able to write coherently, but your reading comprehension does not match your writing skill.

I fear that replying to you any more, and I will be falling folly to Mark Twain's admonishment.
Do not argue with an idiot - onlookers will not be able to tell you apart.  The idiot will always win, as they will drag you down to their level and will beat you with experience.

I wish you the best with your wife, and I pray she has much more patience with you than I do.

[Slumba]

Sorry if this sounds attacking, but as someone who came out of a Mennonite background and who has probably 75% of his relatives Mennonite in some form, or Brethren (related), I find your recommendation hilarious. 

The chance of a regular non-Mennonite being happy with a Mennonite is quite low, unless the Mennonite is so acclimated to mainstream American culture that there is no real difference in outlook to begin with.

[jone]

When I was in college, I dated a mennonite.  It sucked.  However, the other extreme of the Mennonites, is the Mormons, which are a subset, according to some.  In my little town that I grew up in there was a Mormon church.   Invariably the Mormons had some of the sexiest vixens that ever paraded in study hall in our high school.  The elders of the church actually encouraged this.  What would happen is the brightest and best in our high school would fall into the honey trap set by these girls.  They would go 'almost all the way' with the guys and then tell them that they really wanted them, but in order to be with them, they'd have to join the church, etc., and marry them.  Resistance was futile.  Ultimately, the Mormons now had scions of some of the founding families of the town who were members of their church. 

Eighteen or nineteen years later, those same boys who joined the church to be with their loves are now the up and coming elders of the church and, you guessed it, have a couple of daughters that are hotter than hot.  And the cycle repeats.

The girls get whoever they want, they just have to live by the rules.  I've gone out partying with some of my old friends that got caught in this cycle.  Because they were not initially brought up in the Mormon church, they are somewhat repressed and need to let off steam.  You should see them party when they get a hall pass.

Ahhh, life in a small town in the midwest.  This is one of the reasons to tap a different culture for your bride to be.  Family values without the religious overtones.  The US seems to have two sets of values - either there aren't women dedicated to family or there are but the women are also extremely religious.  I realize that this is a gross generalization, but growing up in the midwest, that is how we saw a lot of it.

[Misha]

It's true on the stocks, but if you do a lot of research and be very selective, usually your winners will amortize your losers.

In other words, you can't pick a stock and know for sure that it will be profitable, you simply pick a lot of them and hope that the winners will outnumber the losers.

I disagree that you can't get to know a lady without dating.  It's called courtship.  Courtship and dating are not the same thing.

I don't see the difference. However, in our day and age, who is it that still courts instead of dating?!? Advising a divorced Russian woman (or anybody else for that matter) that she should be courting instead of dating would be comparable to advising people that they should get rid of their cars and buy horses and carriages 

I come from the Midwestern US.  Some call it the Bible belt.  Technically, the original definition of a date is an appointment with a prostitute.

What is your source for this etymology? According to the online etymological dictionary, the word date derives from the word meaning an appointment, yet there is no inference to prostitutes. The modern usage of the word date was already there in 1925. Methinks you see prostitutes everywhere. 

Of course not, and what you suggest is insulting.  If one wanted friends at church to help them find someone suitable for marriage, you would not just tell them you wanted to get married.

The problem with this whole idea is that it would only work if you yourself are religious. If you are not religious or have a different religion, then picking a random church and telling them "find me a suitor" (which was the advise you were giving), this would be a nightmare scenario in most cases.

In Western cultures, dates most definitely ARE about sex, and most people in Western culture do know that.

Yes, people date and people have sex. However, not every first date leads to sex. People date, most people will have sex before marriage, and yet most are still perfectly capable of finding a compatible partner to marry and most will be relatively happy in those marriage.


Also, I really do not hope you think that things are any different in Russia or elsewhere in the FSU...

Spending time with someone and getting to know them is part of courtship, something people in Western culture often have very little knowledge of.

Well, yes, as courtship has been on the decline since the 1880s. Most people are perfectly capable of adapting and understand that in the 21st century most people date.

Perhaps you have a misguided view of what Western dating is.

Says the man who seems stuck in 1880 

Sluts, hoes, and tramps are all common words for prostitutes - and Western dating has many similarities with prostitution.  (especially considering the word date originated with prostitution, and did not become corrupted and interchanged with courtship until sex started being common during courtship.)

Again, I want to see your source as to your interpretation of the etymological origins of the word date. Nonetheless, dating has nothing to do with prostitution.

No.  I suggest you read what I wrote and stop trying to put lies in my mouth.
Your profile lists you as being from Canada, Misha.  I assume that English is your first language?  If English is a second language to you, I can understand you having difficulties in understanding and I will try to explain it better.

Pulling out the language card.... Quite rude and condescending.   

Simply put, this means to stack the odds in your favor.  Dating websites do not stack the odds in your favor for building a serious relationship.  This does not mean that a serious relationship can not result from a dating website.  It can happen, but the odds are much better that a serious relationship will not result.

Why? Where are you stats? What is your proof?

I prefer to court, rather than to date.

So, how is that working out for you?

Anyone following my logic would understand that if you meet someone, and do not click - and you create a pattern of meeting people and not clicking - the problem is you and not them.  The problem is that you are not being selective enough prior to going out with them.  When you continue meeting people and not developing a serious relationship, and you do not make changes - that is when you become a "player".
If someone doesn't want to turn into a player, when they recognize they are not having the results they desire - they stop trying to meet people until they make some changes in their life.

Tell me, are you married? Are you still single? I have to say, it is a bit ironic to be lectured how to successfully find and marry someone by the obviously single guy 

[calmissile]

There must be a large generation gap between BeeFarmer and myself.
To us dating was going out together and did not necessarily mean with the intent to evenually marry.  I could be a casual 'date' between just friends.

Courting a woman was inferring that you are courting and dating her with the intent to get her to marry you.   LOL

Neither had anything to do with prostitution.

[Bee Farmer]

Sorry if this sounds attacking, but as someone who came out of a Mennonite background and who has probably 75% of his relatives Mennonite in some form, or Brethren (related), I find your recommendation hilarious.

The chance of a regular non-Mennonite being happy with a Mennonite is quite low, unless the Mennonite is so acclimated to mainstream American culture that there is no real difference in outlook to begin with.

I grew up and live in a community with a lot of Mennonites and Amish.  I am not Mennonite or Amish, and none of my family members are Mennonites or Amish.  I am good friends with Amish and Mennonites to this day.

I think an English (non-Mennonite or non-Amish) person could be happy with a Mennonite if the English person was fairly acclimated to Mennonite or Amish culture.  I know of an English guy who converted to Amish to marry a girl, and he seems quite happy.

When I was in college, I dated a mennonite. It sucked.

Any chance it sucked because you were approaching a relationship as dating, and she was approaching a relationship with the expectations of courtship?

I've gone out partying with some of my old friends that got caught in this cycle.  Because they were not initially brought up in the Mormon church, they are somewhat repressed and need to let off steam.  You should see them party when they get a hall pass.

I am familiar with some of the shenanigans of the Mormon culture.  Some of their stuff starts heading into the direction of the occult.  Their marriage ceremonies are called a "binding" and are very similar to some satanic rituals.

There is a joke about Mormons.  How do you keep a Mormon from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip?  Take two Mormons.

This is one of the reasons to tap a different culture for your bride to be.  Family values without the religious overtones.  The US seems to have two sets of values - either there aren't women dedicated to family or there are but the women are also extremely religious.

Family values tend to come from religious backgrounds...     How strong their personal conviction is, can vary.

In other words, you can't pick a stock and know for sure that it will be profitable, you simply pick a lot of them and hope that the winners will outnumber the losers.

Are you familiar with Pareto's Law, sometimes called the 80/20 Rule?  20% of your clients produce 80% of your profit.  20% of your workers do 80% of the work.  80% of people are generally good, and 20% are troublemakers or inclined towards mischief.  Stuff like that.  The 80/20 shows up in many things, including stocks.

20% of your stocks produce 80% of the profits.  You can break that 20% down too, and 20% of that 20% produce 80%.  What that means is 4% of all the stocks produce 65% of the marginal utility.  When you buy stocks, you try to identify the 4% most likely to produce the 65%.  if you do this over the long term, such as a decade, you will have 3 standard deviations better performance in your portfolio.

You do NOT pick a lot of stocks.  You try to pick a few, which are most likely to produce the best gains.
I would encourage you to read The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham.  He was Warren Buffett's mentor. 
Several people have become billionaires using Benjamin Graham's methods of stock selection.  Guys like Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, Eric Sprott, Rick Rule, etc.

I don't see the difference. However, in our day and age, who is it that still courts instead of dating?!? Advising a divorced Russian woman (or anybody else for that matter) that she should be courting instead of dating would be comparable to advising people that they should get rid of their cars and buy horses and carriages

Who is it that still courts?  Well, when FSU women expect to be courted, any guy wanting a relationship with a FSU woman would be well advised to court her.
I did not advise a divorced Russian woman that she should be courting instead of dating.  I pointed out that what she was looking for was courtship, rather than her seeking to be dated.

What is your source for this etymology? According to the online etymological dictionary, the word date derives from the word meaning an appointment, yet there is no inference to prostitutes. The modern usage of the word date was already there in 1925. Methinks you see prostitutes everywhere. 

And methinks you can't read.
If you look at the source you cited, it gives a couple origins of date as a liaison or romantic liaison or a liaison appointment.
Common definitions of liaison is:  an illicit sexual relationship : affair: an unfaithful or adulterous sexual relationship.
That sure sounds like an appointment with a prostitute to me.  Google brings up other citations of the origin of date in reference to prostitution.

The problem with this whole idea is that it would only work if you yourself are religious. If you are not religious or have a different religion, then picking a random church and telling them "find me a suitor" (which was the advise you were giving), this would be a nightmare scenario in most cases.

Misha, please do not slander me by telling LIES saying that I said something which I did not say.  You are a LIAR, and are extremely offensive.

If you go back and actually read what I wrote, you will find my exact words were this.

Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy.  In every church I have ever been to, there have ALWAYS been women who try to be matchmakers.  Make sure those older ladies know what kind of guy you are searching for, and what your expectations are.  If there is a single guy anywhere in the area who has any decency about him, those women will find him.  While the guys they try to hook you up with may not be your prince charming, I can pretty much guarantee you that the guys they introduce you to will be a much better class of guys than the bums on match.com that you have been finding.

Nowhere did I imply to pick a random church.  Anyone with COMMON SENSE would know to select a church similar to their own religious beliefs - that way, the other people at the church would likely have similar morals and beliefs.

If someone was not religious at all, they could attend a Unitarian Universalist church.

In no way shape or form did I ever suggest the lady tell the church to "find me a suitor".  If you actually read what I wrote, you will see I suggested that she:
Get to know some ladies in the church.  That means she should develop friendships.
Then she should let it be known that she would like to find a suitable husband.  This is NOT an instruction for the church ladies to find her a husband.  It is simply letting them know that she would be agreeable to being introduced to potential partners.

As for your comment that this would only work if you were religious is absolute NONSENSE.  Having friends introduce you to a potential partner is still the NUMBER ONE method that people find a spouse.

People date, most people will have sex before marriage, and yet most are still perfectly capable of finding a compatible partner to marry and most will be relatively happy in those marriage.

While most people do have sex before marriage, statistics do not back up your claim that most will be relatively happy in those marriages.
Half of marriages end in divorce.  (Divorcees who remarry have a 57% divorce rate.)
Of the people who remain married, research often finds that 90% of them are unhappy.

That means that only 5% of marriages result in a happy marriage.  Would you like to take a guess what percent of people marry without having sex?   

If someone wanted to achieve that 5% happy marriage - should they do the things the 95% do?  Of course not, they need to look at how people obtained the 5% happy marriages.

Well, yes, as courtship has been on the decline since the 1880s. Most people are perfectly capable of adapting and understand that in the 21st century most people date.

And unhappy marriages, broken homes, divorce rates, etc all reflect these changes too.  Just because everyone else is doing something does not mean it is a wise thing to do.

Pulling out the language card.... Quite rude and condescending.   

Misha, it is you who has been rude, condescending, and extremely ill-mannered.  I was just trying to understand if this was because you have difficulties understanding the language, or if you are always this obtuse.  (Obtuse: Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand. Synonyms
dull - blunt - dense - slow-witted)

Since you claim that I am trying to pull out the language card, I will assume that it is because of language difficulties, and not because you are intentionally trying to be a jerk.  I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt, and try to explain things better.

I would like to point out that you have a bad habit of trying to "apply my logic" and then twisting my words into a completely different meaning.  Please do not do this, as it is extremely condescending and rude.  If you do not understand what exactly I meant, ask for clarification.  Do not assume I meant something different, and then try to say something that I did not say.

Why? Where are you stats? What is your proof?

Do I really need to dig up research backing up COMMON SENSE deductions?  Being introduced to a partner is still the $1 way people build relationships.  That alone speaks volumes.
Perhaps I should point out that building relationships is high risk/high reward.  Many people chase the reward, when it has been statistically shown that if you instead manage risk, you will have 3 standard deviations of better success over longer periods of time.  Websites do not allow you to manage risk.  They are designed to encourage people to act on emotions and chase rewards.  Having people know the person they are introducing you to allows you to manage a little bit of the risk.

So, how is that working out for you?

I've never been married, and I'm not stuck in an unhappy marriage.  Simply because I have had the wisdom and foresight to avoid common mistakes, I am doing better than 95% of people.

How has your approach worked out for you?  Your user statistics say that you have been online here a total of 201 days, 13 hours and 40 minutes since you joined in 2007.  You are most active on here from 9am to midnight, and have made almost 6500 posts.
If I was in a happy marriage, I wouldn't be sitting on a computer all day, every day.  It's rather difficult to enjoy a relationship with someone when you spend all your time doing other things.

Tell me, are you married? Are you still single? I have to say, it is a bit ironic to be lectured how to successfully find and marry someone by the obviously single guy

No, I'm not married.  After high school, I was in a relationship with a girl for about 5 years.  She had been severely abused as a young girl, and had many unresolved issues.  She eventually decided that it was easier for her to pursue relationships with other women.  She says I am the best guy she has ever known, and that she never knew that it was possible for a guy to actually love a girl.

It emotionally devastated me.  Over the next few years I tried going out with a few girls but my heart wasn't in it.  So I didn't pursue any relationships.  I didn't want to lead girls on, and I wasn't emotionally ready for a relationship.  By my late 20's I started looking a little, but by then it seemed like all the good girls were already taken and the only ones left were the rejects and misfits.  I started entertaining the notion of finding a Russian wife.  I got to know a couple girls, but never developed a friendship enough to convince me to take a trip over.  I tried building relationships with a few women locally too, but they never developed into anything long term.

I've never "dated" by Western definition.  While I have had sex, it was always after a very close friendship was already in place.  I have always courted, with the intentions of evaluating them as a possible wife.

Next year Kiev is hosting a big conference for bee farmers and people in the industry.  It will be the largest international industry event in Ukraine history.  Organizers expect 12,000 visitors from over 100 countries to attend.  I am giving serious thought to attending this conference.

So I was doing some google searching on what all was involved with traveling to Ukraine and I ended up here.  And who knows, maybe I will meet a girl that I want to visit again.

When I was younger, I took a course on investing and money management.  One of the most important lessons they taught was that the secret to be successful was to surround yourself with successful people in that sector and then copy the things they do.  For example, at the time about 4% of the population in the US earned $100,000 a year or more.  So if you aspire to earn $100,000 a year, who should you get financial advice from?  Should you talk to the 4% who know what it takes to be successful, or should you talk to the 96% who have never learned how to make the big bucks?  (After all, if they knew how to make that kind of money, they would.)  To no surprise, most people get their financial advice from the 96% - and then wonder why they never manage to earn $100K a year.

I took that lesson to heart, and I have tried to get advice from successful people in many aspects in life, including relationships.
I try to seek out those few, elusive happy marriages and get advice from those people.  By doing so, I've managed to avoid some common relationship pitfalls.
Most people get their advice from the common marriages that are either unhappy or divorced - and then they wonder why they are unable to get a truly happy marriage.
If you want to obtain a happy marriage, you should ignore relationship advice from anyone who is unhappy or divorced.  Instead, seek out advice from people who have had the wisdom to avoid those mistakes that lead to unhappy marriages and divorce.

There must be a large generation gap between BeeFarmer and myself.

Yes, I suspect the same.  I'm still young enough to court many of the smokinhotkovas.     I'm not a 60 year old guy.

To us dating was going out together and did not necessarily mean with the intent to evenually marry.  I could be a casual 'date' between just friends.

Courting a woman was inferring that you are courting and dating her with the intent to get her to marry you.   LOL

Neither had anything to do with prostitution.

You may not have known the original meaning of the word date, but that does not change the meaning.

It is good that you recognize that courtship was about serious intentions to marry, while your "dating" was just casual fun.  Anyone hoping to have a relationship with a FSU woman would be wise to recognize that the FSU women are seeking someone with serious intentions, and are not seeking casual intentions.  This should make it clear to people that most of the FSU women are wanting courtship, and are not wanting to date.  A guy with serious hopes would be wise to act accordingly.

[calmissile]

Bee Farmer,

You are one of the most bizarre members to post recently!
Your definition of 'Date' does not hold water in it's common use in the last 100 years.  I was happy to see Misha confirm that Canada also used the common definition as to "meet" or an 'appointment'.  Has nothing to do with sex or prostitutes.  I also checked with some younger people today to make sure I was not out of touch in my old age.  The young people I talked to 19-36 have the same understanding as the rest of us.

It was interesting that you brought up the word 'Liason' to mean something other that what it means.  I did what you suggested and pulled it up on Google.  Here is what it says in the first definition which is followed by many more of the same meaning.  It is also my understanding of the word for many years:

li·ai·son 
/ˈlēəˌzän/Noun
1.Communication or cooperation that facilitates a close working relationship between people or organizations.
2.A person who acts as a link to assist communication or cooperation between groups of people.
 
Synonyms
connection - link - connexion - relation - nexus
 
Where in the hell do you get your warped definitions from?

It is also interesting that you come on a global forum with very strong opinions and advice about dating FSU women, yet according to your profile you have never even made your first trip to the FSU.  You also state that you have never been married, yet have all kinds of advice about marriage.   My friend, it is difficult to take you seriously.  In fact I am wondering if this is some kind of a spoof!

FYI, I also looked on Wikipedia for the definition of 'dating'.  Here is what it says which is consistent with what most normal people believe it means:

Dating is a form of courtship consisting of social activities done by two people with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse. While the term has several meanings, it usually refers to the act of meeting and engaging in some mutually agreed upon social activity in public, together, as a couple.

The protocols and practices of dating, and the terms used to describe it, vary considerably from country to country. The most common idea is two people trying out a relationship and exploring whether they're compatible by going out together in public as a couple, who may or may not yet be having sexual relations. This period of courtship is sometimes seen as a precursor to engagement or marriage

I think that pretty much clears up the definitions of the words 'dating' and 'liason'.

[Misha]

Are you familiar with Pareto's Law, sometimes called the 80/20 Rule?

Familiar with it, yes, but I still view it as a form of sophistry.

Several people have become billionaires using Benjamin Graham's methods of stock selection.  Guys like Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, Eric Sprott, Rick Rule, etc.

Are you a billionaire yet? Or even a millionaire 

Well, when FSU women expect to be courted, any guy wanting a relationship with a FSU woman would be well advised to court her.

Says the man who has never been to the FSU and has never had a serious relationship with a woman from the FSU...

And methinks you can't read.

Yet, you are the one who is coming up with definitions that nobody has heard of ever...

That sure sounds like an appointment with a prostitute to me.  Google brings up other citations of the origin of date in reference to prostitution.

I have to say that you have the oddest preoccupation with prostitutes and prostitution. Let me repeat once more: a woman can have sex with a man and she won't be a prostitute, a ho, a slut or whatever other pejorative term you want to use. Sex between consenting adults is perfectly normal.

Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy.

How am I the liar here? You are suggesting that Vasilisa attend a church even if she is not very religious, and if she is not religious this would imply attending a random church    Again, suggesting that someone who is not very religious attend church and ask random women to set her up is not the best dating or even "courting" advice IMVHO...

I can pretty much guarantee you that the guys they introduce you to will be a much better class of guys than the bums on match.com that you have been finding.

Extremely judgemental. There are plenty of "bums" in Church.

Nowhere did I imply to pick a random church.  Anyone with COMMON SENSE would know to select a church similar to their own religious beliefs - that way, the other people at the church would likely have similar morals and beliefs.

Again, it was clearly implied in your advice.

In no way shape or form did I ever suggest the lady tell the church to "find me a suitor".  If you actually read what I wrote, you will see I suggested that she:
Get to know some ladies in the church.  That means she should develop friendships.
Then she should let it be known that she would like to find a suitable husband.  This is NOT an instruction for the church ladies to find her a husband.

So why is she letting it known that she would like these women to find her a suitable husband? This is getting confusing. She is to let them know, but it is not  instruction??? You should work at being more consistent as you write A in one sentence and deny it in the next...

It is simply letting them know that she would be agreeable to being introduced to potential partners.

Yet, you do not believe in dating, only courting with the aim of marriage, so these potential partners are really candidates to be husbands....

As for your comment that this would only work if you were religious is absolute NONSENSE.  Having friends introduce you to a potential partner is still the NUMBER ONE method that people find a spouse.

Where do you come up with your "facts." You throw out these absolutes yet do not provide any information to back it up. I would say that the main ways of meeting your future partner are: 1. School (including college and university); 2. Work; 3. Friends or activities with friends.

While most people do have sex before marriage, statistics do not back up your claim that most will be relatively happy in those marriages.

Cite your statistics then. Prove that people who do not have sex before marriage will have happier marriages than those who do.

That means that only 5% of marriages result in a happy marriage.  Would you like to take a guess what percent of people marry without having sex?   

Again, where is your proof? Where are your sources? Pulling numbers out of a hat does not make it true.

Misha, it is you who has been rude, condescending, and extremely ill-mannered.  I was just trying to understand if this was because you have difficulties understanding the language, or if you are always this obtuse.  (Obtuse: Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand. Synonyms
dull - blunt - dense - slow-witted)

I will let others be the judge of who is making sense or not...

Since you claim that I am trying to pull out the language card, I will assume that it is because of language difficulties, and not because you are intentionally trying to be a jerk.  I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt, and try to explain things better.

No, simply that people invariably pull out ad hominem attacks when they are losing an argument. It is a very cheap debating ploy, attacking the opponent instead of addressing the ideas...

I would like to point out that you have a bad habit of trying to "apply my logic" and then twisting my words into a completely different meaning.  Please do not do this, as it is extremely condescending and rude.  If you do not understand what exactly I meant, ask for clarification.  Do not assume I meant something different, and then try to say something that I did not say.

Again, either your ideas will stand the test of analysis or they won't.

Do I really need to dig up research backing up COMMON SENSE deductions?  Being introduced to a partner is still the $1 way people build relationships.  That alone speaks volumes.

Another logical fallacy. Appealing to authority. Again, you have not proven that being introduced to a partner is still the main way people build relationships.

Perhaps I should point out that building relationships is high risk/high reward.  Many people chase the reward, when it has been statistically shown that if you instead manage risk, you will have 3 standard deviations of better success over longer periods of time.

Clearly, you do not understand the concept of standard deviation.

Websites do not allow you to manage risk.  They are designed to encourage people to act on emotions and chase rewards.  Having people know the person they are introducing you to allows you to manage a little bit of the risk.

The goal of a dating website is not to "manage risk." You seek to contact people for a potential first date and once you meet the website should be out of the picture.

I've never been married, and I'm not stuck in an unhappy marriage.  Simply because I have had the wisdom and foresight to avoid common mistakes, I am doing better than 95% of people.

How does it go: better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all...

How has your approach worked out for you?  Your user statistics say that you have been online here a total of 201 days, 13 hours and 40 minutes since you joined in 2007.  You are most active on here from 9am to midnight, and have made almost 6500 posts.

Both judgmental and bad statistical analysis. Bravo! I have been here over five years and that works out to roughly 3 posts per day. Some posts will be a mere "+1" or a few words of congratulations. I might spend 5 to 15 minutes writing posts per day on average. Often, I write posts when I am waiting for my wife to wake up so we can have breakfast (as I am doing now) or as a break from work. Some people take smoke breaks, some people watch sports, I participate in these forums.

If I was in a happy marriage, I wouldn't be sitting on a computer all day, every day.  It's rather difficult to enjoy a relationship with someone when you spend all your time doing other things.

Yes, I do sit at a computer all day, every day, because it is my job. I spend the day writing, answering emails, waiting for emails, searching for information to write/answer emails.... If I did not do this, I would lose my job. When I need a bread, I check Facebook or read this forum. Have you never learned the assume rule? Most children in school learn at some point that if you make assumptions you will "make an ass out of u and me..."

I tried building relationships with a few women locally too, but they never developed into anything long term.

Perhaps you should be analyzing the causes of this.

I have always courted, with the intentions of evaluating them as a possible wife.

How was this seen by the women you were "courting"?

If you want to obtain a happy marriage, you should ignore relationship advice from anyone who is unhappy or divorced.  Instead, seek out advice from people who have had the wisdom to avoid those mistakes that lead to unhappy marriages and divorce.

Read the opening line to Anna Karenina, it sums it up pretty nicely.

You may not have known the original meaning of the word date, but that does not change the meaning.

You have yet to provide any proof... Saying something is true, does not make it true.

Anyone hoping to have a relationship with a FSU woman would be wise to recognize that the FSU women are seeking someone with serious intentions, and are not seeking casual intentions.

This statement is incredibly naive. There are plenty of women in the FSU who will seek casual sex, others will have affairs with married men, etc.... If you are living under the illusions that all FSU women are sitting at home waiting for a suitor to court them, you are sadly mistaken.

This should make it clear to people that most of the FSU women are wanting courtship, and are not wanting to date.  A guy with serious hopes would be wise to act accordingly.

Go to the FSU and when you come back, tell me how it worked out for you 

[newjason]

wow these are getting long...
any bets on who can have the first full page post?   

[Bee Farmer]

Your definition of 'Date' does not hold water in it's common use in the last 100 years.  I was happy to see Misha confirm that Canada also used the common definition as to "meet" or an 'appointment'.  Has nothing to do with sex or prostitutes.

If you will notice, I made it quite clear that the ORIGIN of the word "date" was an appointment with a prostitute.  That was the ORIGINAL meaning.  Courtship was the process of choosing a husband/wife back then.  The courtship process started being called "dating" when sex started being common in courtship.

The casual dating practices of the Western culture more closely resemble an appointment with a prostitute than courtship.

Doesn't anyone know how to use Google?

In earlier 1800s, young adults were expected to court with the intention of finding a marriage partner, rather than for social reasons. In America, in the 1820s, the phrase "date" was most closely associated with prostitution. However, by the Jazz Age of the 1920s, dating for fun was becoming a cultural expectation, and by the 1930s, it was assumed that any popular young person would have lots of dates. This form of dating, though, was usually chaster than is seen today, since pre-marital sex was not considered the norm.[citation needed]

After the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s, this "old-fashioned" form of dating waned in popularity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtship

It was interesting that you brought up the word 'Liason' to mean something other that what it means.  I did what you suggested and pulled it up on Google.  Here is what it says in the first definition which is followed by many more of the same meaning.  It is also my understanding of the word for many years:

li·ai·son
/ˈlēəˌzän/Noun
1.Communication or cooperation that facilitates a close working relationship between people or organizations.
2.A person who acts as a link to assist communication or cooperation between groups of people.
 
Synonyms
connection - link - connexion - relation - nexus
 
Where in the hell do you get your warped definitions from?

Many English words have different meanings.  Some words, like "run" and "set" have around 400 different meanings each.  You have to select which definition makes the most sense in the way the word is used.

A "date" being an appointment for an illicit sexual affair or adultery definitely makes sense, and indicates this is probably the most correct definition to use.

It is also interesting that you come on a global forum with very strong opinions and advice about dating FSU women,

I'd like to point out that this thread is about Vasilisa asking about how to find a US man to marry, and I was pointing out the differences in how Americans approach relationships differently than with the express intentions of finding a spouse.

FYI, I also looked on Wikipedia for the definition of 'dating'.  Here is what it says which is consistent with what most normal people believe it means:

Dating is a form of courtship consisting of social activities done by two people with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse. While the term has several meanings, it usually refers to the act of meeting and engaging in some mutually agreed upon social activity in public, together, as a couple.

FYI, Wikipedia doesn't give definitions.

Maybe we should look at how words are viewed today in Western culture.

Courtship - evaluating a potential wife/husband.  It may or may not include sexual relations.

Casual dating - getting to know someone, with no express intentions of pursuing marriage.  Casual dating often includes sexual relations.

Serious dating - evaluating someone for marriage that you have been casual dating.  This usually only happens AFTER you have gone through the casual dating stage.

The problem is, Western people do not differentiate casual or serious dating when we use the word "dating".  We just lump it all together, and use the word "dating" to describe either casual dating or serious dating.  However, when we use the word "dating", the default definition most people think of is "casual dating", and we only say they are serious about each other after they have gone through the casual dating stage.

For someone not used to the English language, it creates a lot of confusion for them.  For example, is Vasilisa is looking for a guy for the express purpose of marriage, she may say they she wants to date a guy.  In her mind, she is saying that she wants serious dating.  For a Western guy, when he hears that she wants to date, he will think she is looking for casual dating with no serious intentions.

Can you see the problem this misunderstanding causes?

A better word to describe what Vasilisa is looking for is "courtship".

Nobody seems to recognize that Vasilisa is having problems being understood due to the language barrier, and they want to argue to keep using the confusing words that are causing the problems.  What is wrong with you guys?  For a forum about dating FSU women and all the difficulties that come with it, there is a lot of resistance to trying to overcome language barriers and misunderstandings.

Are you a billionaire yet? Or even a millionaire

No, I'm not a billionaire or a millionaire.  I do aspire to be a millionaire though, and I am on track to achieve that goal by the age of 40.

Yet, you are the one who is coming up with definitions that nobody has heard of ever...

Not true.  The definitions are there.  It's just that some words have multiple definitions, and some people only want to use one definition for a word, and they are too lazy to learn other definitions.

I have to say that you have the oddest preoccupation with prostitutes and prostitution. Let me repeat once more: a woman can have sex with a man and she won't be a prostitute, a ho, a slut or whatever other pejorative term you want to use. Sex between consenting adults is perfectly normal.

Your comment is totally irrelevant.  Although your notion that I am preoccupied with prostitutes is ridiculous and stupid.  It's not my fault that you are too lazy to google the word date, and see that it was originally used to describe an appointment with a prostitute.  See the Wikipedia citation above.

How am I the liar here? You are suggesting that Vasilisa attend a church even if she is not very religious, and if she is not religious this would imply attending a random church

You are a liar because you said that I said to pick a random church and telling them "find me a suitor".  I did not say that.  That has a completely different meaning than "Attend a church, even if you are not very religious.  Get to know some of the women, and let it be known that you are lonely and would like to find a good guy."

It does NOT imply attending a random church.  Where do you get the idea that implies a random church?  Anyone with COMMON SENSE would know that it implies selecting a church with beliefs similar to hers, so that any guys there would have the best chance of being compatible with her.

If someone needed to get their teeth fixed, you might suggest they get medical attention for their teeth.  Common sense would dictate that they find a dentist.  If they pick out a doctor at random, they might end up at the proctologist.  While a dentist and a proctologist are both medical doctors, the proctologist would leave a bad taste in their mouth.
(A proctologist is a doctor for the anus.)

and ask random women to set her up is not the best dating or even "courting" advice IMVHO...

I never suggested that she ask random women to set her up.  Where do you come up with the idea of "random" women, when I clearly stated "get to know them"  and THEN let it be known she is looking.
"Get to know them" means to cultivate a friendship, and those women would learn her personality, characteristics, traits, likes and dislikes, etc.
There is nothing random about it.

Extremely judgemental. There are plenty of "bums" in Church.

You need judgement.  Yes, there are bums in church.  And those other women in the church will have personal knowledge of the bums, and they will make sure they warn Vasilisa about the bums.  A friend will not try to introduce a lady to a bum, which is why I suggested that Vasilisa make friends with the women in the church.
Anyone with COMMON SENSE knows this.  I guess my question to you Misha, is why you are having such a difficult time understanding common sense?  Common sense is common sense regardless of the language.

    Nowhere did I imply to pick a random church.  Anyone with COMMON SENSE would know to select a church similar to their own religious beliefs - that way, the other people at the church would likely have similar morals and beliefs.

Again, it was clearly implied in your advice.

In what way did I word things that implied that she should pick a random church?  You are clearly having difficulties understanding the meaning of the words I write.  What can I do to better explain things so that you can understand them?

So why is she letting it known that she would like these women to find her a suitable husband? This is getting confusing.

Letting them know she is looking informs the ladies that she will not be offended if they introduce her to a good eligible man.
It is considered to be offensive and extremely bad manners to try to introduce a lady to a man when she is not looking for a relationship.

She is to let them know, but it is not  instruction???

No, it is not an instruction or an order.  The ladies have no obligation or responsibility to look for a good man for her.  Letting them know that she is looking simply informs them that she will not be offended if they introduce a good man to her, if the ladies decide to help her out of the kindness of their heart.

You should work at being more consistent as you write A in one sentence and deny it in the next...

I write "A" in a sentence?  Please explain, as I do not know what point you are trying to make.

Quote

    It is simply letting them know that she would be agreeable to being introduced to potential partners.


Yet, you do not believe in dating, only courting with the aim of marriage, so these potential partners are really candidates to be husbands....

Well, Vasilisa did say that she was looking for a husband.  So yes, common sense would tell you that these potential partners are the same thing as candidates to be a husband.  A husband is a partner, and "candidates to be husbands" and "potential partner" have the same meaning in this usage.

Where do you come up with your "facts." You throw out these absolutes yet do not provide any information to back it up. I would say that the main ways of meeting your future partner are: 1. School (including college and university); 2. Work; 3. Friends or activities with friends.

For a man who thinks that being able to solve things himself, it seems strange that you are too lazy to use google and do some fact checking.  Instead, you insist that I babysit you and do things for you.

Friends as matchmakers

Friends remain an excellent way for people to meet people, according to sociologist Edward Laumann of the University of Chicago, who wrote that "A real person––whatever his relationship to you, be it friend or kinsman or co-worker––is still far and away the most reliable kind of way to meet someone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating

Is Wikipedia a good enough source for you?

Cite your statistics then. Prove that people who do not have sex before marriage will have happier marriages than those who do.

Sociology Professor Jay Teachman, of Western Washington University, conducted a study to determine the association between premarital sex, premarital cohabitation, and the risk of divorce. Teachman’s research differentiates itself because the study simultaneously examines both premarital sex and premarital cohabitation. This study was published in the May 2003 edition of the Journal of Marriage and Family.
Results and Significant Data

    Multiple premarital sex partners enhance women’s risk of divorce, regardless of their cohabitation experiences.
    Women whose intimate premarital relationships are limited to their husbands—either premarital sex alone or premarital cohabitation—do not experience an increased risk of divorce
    Having at least one other intimate relationship prior to marriage is linked to an increased risk of divorce
    There is a substantially higher risk of marital dissolution if the woman both had sex with another man and cohabited with him
    17.8% of women, in the sample size of 6,577, did not have premarital sex and did not cohabit prior to marriage.
http://waitingtillmarriage.org/study-definite-link-between-premarital-sex-cohabitation-and-divorce/

Correlation between Virginity and Adult Marital Stability

In 2001, the National Center for Health Statistics estimated that 43 percent of all first marriages in the U.S. ended in divorce within the first 15 years.207 One explanation for this trend is the destructive effects that premarital sex and cohabitation have on adolescents prior to marriage. In a study analyzing the National Survey of Family Growth, non-virgin women faced a much higher risk of divorce than women who were virgins when they first marrried.209 In a similar study, among women who divorced, dissolution rates were higher for those who initiated sexual activity before marriage.210 Additionally, data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth indicate that among 18 year-old men and women, those who were virgins were twice as likely to stay married as those who were sexually active.211
http://www.abstinenceworks.org/component/content/article/13-the-facts/52-benefits-of-delaying-sexual-debut





The results presented in this article replicate findings from previous research: Women who cohabit prior to marriage or who have premarital sex have an increased likelihood of marital disruption. Considering the joint effects of premarital cohabitation and premarital sex, as well as histories of premarital relationships, extends previous research. The most salient finding from this analysis is that women whose intimate premarital relationships are limited to their husbands—either premarital sex alone or premarital cohabitation—do not experience an increased risk of divorce. It is only women who have more than one intimate premarital relationship who have an elevated risk of marital disruption. This effect is strongest for women who have multiple premarital coresidental unions. These findings are consistent with the notion that premarital sex and cohabitation have become part of the normal courtship pattern in the United States. They do not indicate selectivity on characteristics linked to the risk of divorce and do not provide couples with experiences that lessen the stability of marriage.
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html

What this data shows is that sexual partner count is a very good--in fact uncannily good--predictor of the risks of divorce.

How good? One extra partner in a woman is equivalent to negating the protective benefit of greater-than-high school education in a woman, two partners equivalent to having a poverty affected marriage, ten or more partners negates any benefit of income or education with regard to marital risk.

From a statistical perspective, the marital dissolution risk of a woman receiving welfare and a wealthy promiscuous educated woman is about the same.
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/statistical-adjustments-to-promiscuity.html

And if those citations aren't good enough, here is a thesis from Louisiana State University looking at the relationship between premarital sexual behaviors and their effect on marriage, and it is filled with citations to other research also.
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-12182006-123257/unrestricted/Thesis.pdf

No, simply that people invariably pull out ad hominem attacks when they are losing an argument. It is a very cheap debating ploy, attacking the opponent instead of addressing the ideas...

In order to address the ideas, you must be able to understand what the other is saying.  You Misha, have a lot of difficulty understanding what I am saying, and you resort to telling lies and being a jerk.  When I point out that you are being a jerk, you claim that I am attacking you personally instead of addressing ideas.

The one who is losing is YOU Misha.  The argument is how to be understood, and you are not understanding me.  I understand what you write, but you do not understand my message.  Until YOU are able to understand me, we both lose.  Instead of having an attitude against me because you have difficulties understanding, why don't you try being humble and asking me to explain the things you do not understand?

You can either choose to have a chip on your shoulder, and throw a fit because you don't understand - or you can choose to act with class, and respectfully ask someone to help you understand.

Appealing to authority. Again, you have not proven that being introduced to a partner is still the main way people build relationships.

Of course, if you took a little bit of initiative and did a little research on your own, I wouldn't have to babysit you and give you answers that you can easily find for yourself.  You're not a little child.  Why do you act like one?

    Perhaps I should point out that building relationships is high risk/high reward.  Many people chase the reward, when it has been statistically shown that if you instead manage risk, you will have 3 standard deviations of better success over longer periods of time.

Clearly, you do not understand the concept of standard deviation.

Are you a billionaire Misha?  Rick Rule is, and he is an excellent analyst.  He invests in high risk/high reward sectors.  When he tells me that if I manage my risk instead of chasing rewards, my portfolio will have 3 standard deviations of superb performance over 10 years, I'll take his word for it, and I'll trust an analyst to know what standard deviations are in statistical probability.
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1353710571.php

The goal of a dating website is not to "manage risk." You seek to contact people for a potential first date and once you meet the website should be out of the picture.

You are correct in that it is not the goal of a dating website to manage risk.  It is YOUR own personal responsibility to manage risk, and dating websites are not very good at helping you reduce your risks.
Matchmaking ladies at a church who know you and other singles personally - they do give you more ability to limit your risks.  For one thing, they can eliminate a lot of unnecessary dates from people on a website that you are not compatible with.

How does it go: better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all...

The only people who say that...never lost.
I've loved, and I've lost.  And I say it is better for someone to have loved and never lost.

Yes, I do sit at a computer all day, every day, because it is my job. I spend the day writing, answering emails, waiting for emails, searching for information to write/answer emails.... If I did not do this, I would lose my job.

Let me guess.  You have problems with the language barrier, get angry and want to argue, and can't hold down a job doing anything else?  Working on a computer is one job you can do, since you are able to write well enough for people to understand you.
Is this also the reason you married a FSU woman from a website?  Language barriers caused too many problems with local women?  Or was it that you didn't understand Western dating?

    I tried building relationships with a few women locally too, but they never developed into anything long term.

Perhaps you should be analyzing the causes of this.

I have.  Some of my family members have some very undesirable traits, and I would rather be alone than to marry a woman who has slept with several men.  Those seem to be the most common reasons.

    I have always courted, with the intentions of evaluating them as a possible wife.

How was this seen by the women you were "courting"?

It has always been appreciated and highly respected.  One girl who was severely abused as a child told me that she had never known before that it was even possible for a man to really love a woman.

    If you want to obtain a happy marriage, you should ignore relationship advice from anyone who is unhappy or divorced.  Instead, seek out advice from people who have had the wisdom to avoid those mistakes that lead to unhappy marriages and divorce.

Read the opening line to Anna Karenina, it sums it up pretty nicely.

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

And when you are done reading the opening line, read what I wrote on how to obtain a happy family.   

    You may not have known the original meaning of the word date, but that does not change the meaning.

You have yet to provide any proof... Saying something is true, does not make it true.

And you being too lazy and ignorant to look up the original meaning does not change the original meaning.

    Anyone hoping to have a relationship with a FSU woman would be wise to recognize that the FSU women are seeking someone with serious intentions, and are not seeking casual intentions.

This statement is incredibly naive. There are plenty of women in the FSU who will seek casual sex, others will have affairs with married men, etc.... If you are living under the illusions that all FSU women are sitting at home waiting for a suitor to court them, you are sadly mistaken.

But are Western guys who hope to have a relationship with a FSU woman have the best chance of meeting a FSU woman who wants casual sex, looking for an affair, etc.....or are those guys who hope to have a relationship with a FSU woman most likely to find a FSU woman who puts her profile up on a website, and is waiting for a Western guy to court them?

Common sense would tell you that a Western man who hopes for a relationship is not going to spend the time and money to go to the FSU just for casual sex. 
Common sense would tell you that a guy who is hoping for a relationship is not going to spend the time and money to the FSU to have an affair.
Common sense would tell you that a Western guy who is hoping to have a relationship with a FSU girl will be looking for a FSU girl who is waiting to be courted.

Why is common sense so difficult for you to understand?

[Bee Farmer]

Quote

    The church folks pre-screen possible dates for compatibility, to increase the likelihood that you will click.  They won't introduce you to a player - they will recognize the player lacks serious intentions.


How exactly do they "pre-screen" for compatibility?

Originally I had thought that this question was asked out of an intention to be stupid and difficult, as it is common sense why friendly ladies at a church would be much better matchmakers than a dating website.  I now suspect it may be because of difficulties in being understood due to the language barrier.

The friendly ladies at a church will know the single people personally, the good along with the bad.  With dating websites, people typically forget to tell their bad points, and it is boastful to tell your good characteristics.

If a guy has drug or alcohol problems, the ladies at a church will know.  You won't find that out on a website.

If they have children from a previous relationship, the ladies at church will know.  People on dating websites sometimes forget to mention they have kids, especially if they don't have custody of those kids.

If they do have kids, a dating website won't tell you how they treat their children.  The ladies at a church will have a good idea if they are loving, or if they are abusive and neglectful.

If a single guy seems to attract women who are accident prone when they are around him, the ladies at church will know.  I assume everyone knows of women like that.  They regularly get bad bruises, and they always have an excuse of having some kind of accident.  But the bruises are frequent when women see this guy...but she stops getting bruises when she stops seeing him...and every woman he goes out with ends up with bruises.  Even if he seems like a nice guy on outward appearances, the friendly ladies at a church will protect a single girl from him and warn her about him.  If she meets him on a dating website, she will learn the hard way that he likes to hit women.

Sometimes good men or women have been heartbroken, and they have accepted their fate of being single so that they do not get hurt again.  The ladies at a church will know about that good single person, and they know that all that single person may need is a friendly nudge in the right direction.  Those good people hiding in the shadows won't even show up on a dating website.

On a dating website, you have no way of knowing how someone treats those around them.  Those friendly ladies at a church will know.  And how people treat those around them is important when you are looking for a relationship, because it gives an indication of how they will treat you.

A dating website will not tell you if someone is honest, respectful, hardworking, or dependable.  The ladies at the church will know though.

A dating website will not tell you the character of someone's heart - but the ladies at the church will know what their heart is like.

A dating website won't tell you if a girl spends money faster than a guy can make it - but the ladies at church will know.

A dating website won't tell you if a guy blows his entire paycheck on Saturday evening - but the ladies at church will know.

Bad things like these are risks in having a relationship.  Looking for someone on a local dating website exposes you to these risks, and you have to find out the hard way.

Little old church ladies love to gossip, and always know the good and bad about everyone, and they always love to be matchmakers.  By making friends with these church ladies, they are usually overjoyed at helping you separate the wheat from the chaff.  They feel useful because you wanted their advice and guidance.

[calmissile]

Bee Farmer,

I would suggest you not try and find a FSU wife.  With your lack of knowing the Russian language and your problems with English as well, it is very likely you will have a severe language barrier.

You have demonstrated your strong desire to argue endlessly.  You may find this personality trait a detriment in finding a compatible FSU wife.  It is unlikely you will win any arguments with a FSU woman, and it is further unlikely that she will want to read or listen to pages of arguments or explanations about your point of view.  It would be worth buying tickets to see your performance.

Once you have learned the FSU culture, made a few trips to FSU, and dated/courted some FSU women, come back and tell us how successful you were.  We would probably be more receptive to being lectured by someone with some experience.

To put and end to the silly definitions of words, it is not important what the origin of a word is.  What is important is the common use and definition of words.  No one (except possibly you) gives a rats ass what a word might have meant a hundred years ago.  Your opinion about the common use of the words you specified such as 'date' and 'liaison' and courting is so far into left field that no one has come to your rescue and agrees with you.  Does it feel alone out there?  Maybe there is a message there for you.   LOL

As a bee farmer, I would think you would have a better understanding about the 'birds and the bees'.    LOL

Your calling Misha stupid and ignorant is really uncalled for.  While Misha and I do not always see eye to eye on everything, he is neither stupid or ignorant.  Furthermore, he probably knows more about the FSU culture than you ever will.  He also seems to have a good command of the English language and your lack of ability to understand him is one of your deficiencies.  Everyone else on the forum seems to understand him quite well.

I am waiting for the other shoe to drop and you tell us that this was really a silly college prank to make these postings.   LOL

[Misha]

I am glad that you are finally citing your sources. Though, I am wary of most of them. The danger is that research can be biased. This article provides a good account as to how one research out of Brigham Young University produced some questionable data: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-skeptical-sleuth/201103/did-study-really-show-abstinence-marriage-makes-better-sex-afterwar. The blogs and the other sites are of limited value.


However, let's say your facts are correct and that a woman who has sex with even one man before marriage is unlikely to have a happy marriage, then what? If that is what you believe, you should certainly not be looking at the the FSU for marriage prospects (with or without the help of a church) IMVHO. The truly religious women who do believe in no sex before marriage will invariably marry young and won't be all that interested in marrying a foreigner. Based on what you have written, the only suitable marriage partner for you would be a virgin. Do you really think that you will be able to find this in the FSU?

[newjason]

As a bee farmer, I would think you would have a better understanding about the 'birds and the bees'.    LOL

Your calling Misha stupid and ignorant is really uncalled for. 

well said.

[Ade]

Bee Farmer, if you think you're going to find want you're looking for in the FSU, or at least what I think you're looking for, then in all likelihood you will be either disappointed or lied to. You're more likely to find someone among the religious fanatics of the US.

[GQBlues]

This thread gets thicker and thicker...

Bee Farmer-

If you got it all figured out, then what brought you to RWD in the first place?

One would think a man in your stature would have no reason whatsoever to *accidentally stumble* upon a site dealing with DATING WOMEN from countries who are anything but sexually prudish.

I mean did you miss a cue from this wonderful, wholesome thread ?

RWD isn't exactly a congregation, you know...

You remind me of that poor fellow who wandered over to the old RWG stating that the reason he seeks a wife from Russia was because he *honestly* believed it's a country full of virgins. LOL. The dude was serious, man. So I helped him out with any question he had to make his trip as easy, enjoyable and as quickly as possible. The dude was posting/citing all kinds of idealistic psycho-babble like you that I can't help but be reminded of him when I gloss over your tripe.

So I just had to help the bro out with deliberate haste and send him on his merry way.

So tell me, what can brown do for you?

[Daveman]

Good Lord...

[Ranetka]

Bee Farmer,


what you are searching exists in Russia. However it is not mainstream and is nearly 100% impossible to find through "normal" MOB route. If you really want to find a Russian Woman I would suggest you do some research, find out which Churches in your area has representation in Russia (Jehovah Witnesses have for example), attend them, right to the Russian church, go visit them etc....Basically follow the advise you gave to Vasilisa, I think it will might work actually. Otherwise you might  have a really painful experience in Russia I am sorry to say...


P.S. I know of someone who lost her virginity at 36 and is now happily married to a European man. He is her second sexual partner. However I have to add they are both have clearly seen psychological issues preventing them to find partners in their own countries. But who cares? They have found each other and they are happy. There's someone for everyone.


 

[Anotherkiwi]

...You remind me of that poor fellow who wandered over to the old RWG stating that the reason he seeks a wife from Russia was because he *honestly* believed it's a country full of virgins. LOL. The dude was serious, man. So I helped him out with any question he had to make his trip as easy, enjoyable and as quickly as possible. The dude was posting/citing all kinds of idealistic psycho-babble like you that I can't help but be reminded of him when I gloss over your tripe.

So I just had to help the bro out with deliberate haste and send him on his merry way.

Did you ever hear from him again? 

[Bee Farmer]

I would suggest you not try and find a FSU wife.  With your lack of knowing the Russian language and your problems with English as well, it is very likely you will have a severe language barrier.

Once you have learned the FSU culture, made a few trips to FSU, and dated/courted some FSU women, come back and tell us how successful you were.  We would probably be more receptive to being lectured by someone with some experience.

I wasn't aware that I had English issues, nor was I aware that I was searching for a FSU wife.

People seem to have major problems reading what I write.  As I have already stated before, I am looking at a business trip to Ukraine next year.  Most of the information about traveling to Ukraine is on websites oriented towards marrying a FSU woman.
With that said, if I found the right girl, I would not have a problem courting a FSU woman, just as I would not be opposed to courting a Mennonite girl or a local girl.  To me, it's about the right girl - I am not limiting myself to FSU women.

When I was a senior in high school, my widowed Aunt hosted a foreign exchange student from St. Petersburg.  Since Leonid was my age, I helped watch over him at school.  Leo was quite an interesting guy.  He forged the paperwork to apply to be an exchange student, and only told his mother that he was going to America after he had been approved.  By coming to America, he lost a year of schooling, as he had to repeat that year of schooling when he returned to Russia.  Leo's English had a lot of room for improvement, and he often struggled to overcome the language barrier.  But Leo was always very humble, and would ask you to help him understand.  He was a very likeable guy, and got along well with everyone.

There was also an exchange student at school from Spain.  He had a miserable attitude, and wanted to argue and fight everyone because he had problems with the language.  I don't think he was even there a month before he was returned back to his home country.

So don't think that I am completely clueless about the FSU.  I know what it is like to try to communicate with a native Russian whose English is pretty bad.  I also know that there are some real class acts in the FSU too.  I suspect Leonid was a better source of information about FSU culture than the sex tourists and keyboard Romeo's who post here.  I doubt FSU culture has changed that much since Leo was here and we were high school boys.

To put and end to the silly definitions of words, it is not important what the origin of a word is.  What is important is the common use and definition of words.  No one (except possibly you) gives a rats ass what a word might have meant a hundred years ago.

History doesn't repeat, but it sure does rhyme.  Those who are not willing to learn from history are bound to repeat the mistakes.  Ignore history at your own peril.

Your calling Misha stupid and ignorant is really uncalled for.

Stupid is as stupid does, and Misha repeatedly does stupid things.  Personally, I think it would be a lot more helpful if he stopped trying to be stupid and difficult.  If he does not understand something, ask for clarification, instead of telling lies and saying that I said something that I did not say.

As John Wayne said "Life is tough.  It's even tougher when you are stupid."

I am glad that you are finally citing your sources. Though, I am wary of most of them. The danger is that research can be biased.

Most of them referenced a study from the Western Washington University that was based upon data collected by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics, which is a branch of the federal government.  What do you feel is biased about a government study?

I do agree that the thesis page I cited could be dismissed as being biased since only church members were evaluated, and because of the low number of participants in the study.

However, let's say your facts are correct and that a woman who has sex with even one man before marriage is unlikely to have a happy marriage, then what?

The information does not say that a woman who has sex with even one man before marriage will have an unhappy marriage.

However, the information does show a large correlation between the more sexual partners a woman has prior to marriage, and the more likely she will have an unstable marriage.

Then what, you ask?  Anyone with common sense would know that if you are serious about wanting a happy and stable marriage, then you should only try building a relationship with women that have had very few sexual partners.

If that is what you believe, you should certainly not be looking at the the FSU for marriage prospects (with or without the help of a church) IMVHO. The truly religious women who do believe in no sex before marriage will invariably marry young and won't be all that interested in marrying a foreigner.

The really good girls in America tend to get married young also. 
Why do you equate a girl who doesn't sleep with many partners as being very religious?  A girl having high standards is not limited to only girls who are religious.

Why do you believe that a I should not consider a FSU woman for a wife?  Are you trying to say that all FSU women are promiscuous and have had many sexual partners?

Based on what you have written, the only suitable marriage partner for you would be a virgin. Do you really think that you will be able to find this in the FSU?

Once again, here comes your lies.  I have never said that the only suitable marriage partner for me is a virgin, nor do the statistics I cited imply that either.  You ASSume the only suitable partner for me is a virgin.  I've already written that I am not a virgin, and it would not be reasonable of me to expect a woman to be a virgin if I wasn't.
 
While marrying a virgin girl does increase the likelihood of a stable, happy marriage, marrying a virgin is not a guarantee of success either, as people who only have one sexual partner do sometimes divorce.

People do make mistakes.  The question is if they learn from their mistakes or not.  As the charts show, only one partner before marriage still have a higher chance of a stable marriage than someone with multiple partners.  And sometimes, knowing that you made a mistake will cause people to show even more appreciation for second chances.

Marrying at age 25 instead of 18 reduces the chances of divorce in half too.

For me, I would have a difficult time trusting a woman who had had 2 sexual partners or more.  Leopards don't change their spots. 
Now if I found a compatible girl who was age 25 or older, and she had only had one sexual partner, I would still be willing to consider her for marriage even though she wasn't a virgin.  I would not be afraid to gamble my heart on her.

Do I think that I can find a virgin or a girl who has only had one sexual partner in the FSU?  Yes, I do.  The last I knew, every girl in the FSU was born a virgin, so virginity is just as common there as anywhere else in the world.   

It all comes down to what class of girl you look for.  There are virgin girls, and there are promiscuous girls.  I would think that if you got on a website and chose profiles of girls with pictures of them in their underwear, you might have a difficult time finding a girl with few sexual partners.  But if you looked at profiles of girls who dressed more modestly, you would stand a higher chance of finding girls that hadn't slept around.

In my late 20's I wrote to 2 different FSU women in the 22-24 age range.  One was a virgin, and one had only had one sexual partner.  So yes, I do believe there are girls in the FSU who have had few sexual partners.  I am NOT looking for a Skoptsy though.   

In the thread about rules for intimacy, some guys mentioned that if the girl was not intimate within seeing her a few times, they went looking for someone easier.  So what happened to the girls who didn't put out in the first 3 dates?  Those are the ones who are most likely to have the higher standards.  It's easy to forget about good girls like than when someone is only looking to find the girls that are easy.

If you got it all figured out, then what brought you to RWD in the first place?

One would think a man in your stature would have no reason whatsoever to *accidentally stumble* upon a site dealing with DATING WOMEN from countries who are anything but sexually prudish.

As I have already stated in this thread, (for people who can't read) I was looking at going to Ukraine next year on a business trip.  Much of the information on traveling to Ukraine is on sites about marrying FSU women.  That's how I ended up here, and I happened to see this thread that Vasilisa had started.  My primary reason for being on this site was learning the ins and outs of traveling to Ukraine - but I wouldn't be opposed to meeting a good girl while I was there.

Speaking of Russians who are anything but sexual prudes - how about those Skoptsy's?  They were some real sex fiends, huh?

From my own observations of people on this site, and from my own interactions with FSU women, I would say that most of the guys on this site are hoping and dreaming that FSU women are anything but sexual prudes...but in reality, most FSU women are not as easy and loose as the foreign sex tourists wish.  (Although, there are enough loose women to keep the sex tourists coming over to get scammed pay the pimps.

I mean did you miss a cue from this wonderful, wholesome thread ?

RWD isn't exactly a congregation, you know...

Yes, I am aware it isn't a congregation.  They remind me of drunken customers at a strip club.  They see a bunch of pretty women, and hope and dream of getting lucky.  In reality, they leave with an empty wallet and a fantasy is all they got from the girls.  And the stupid thing is, the guys keep coming back for more fantasies, hoping someday they will find a woman to sleep with them.

I can understand someone with high standards having a difficult time finding someone to marry.  But when you see guys with low standards, who are just looking for an easy lay - if FSU women have such loose morals, why aren't all these guys married by now?

what you are searching exists in Russia. However it is not mainstream and is nearly 100% impossible to find through "normal" MOB route.

Thank you for your kind words Ranetka.  It is not mainstream for girls not to have multiple partners here in America either.  I believe the above statistics showed about 19% of people had married as virgins.  The way Hollywood and the media portrays relationships, you would think there are only a few virgin girls isolated away in extremely religious communities.  It's a lot more common than people realize.  Being promiscuous just gets more press and media attention, so people get the mindset that everyone is doing it.

I do resent the fact that most people never question or think for themselves. I don't want to be normal. I just want to find some other people that are odd in the same ways that I am. OP.

That's a very good tagline.
I consider myself to be a diamond in the rough, with an extra emphasis on rough.  And like any diamond, I do have my flaws.  I've been called much worse than "odd" before too.   

[ML]

I know of someone who lost her virginity at 36 . . .

 The best way to try to find something you have lost is to go back to the last place you remember being before you lost it.
 
 Did she report this loss to the police?  Perhaps she could file a claim if it were  covered under a Home Owners policy.

[newjason]

these mega - multi quote posts are impossible to follow. please learn how to use the quote function properly. Or at least label the quote so it is marked who it is from.

[GQBlues]

...As I have already stated in this thread, (for people who can't read) I was looking at going to Ukraine next year on a business trip.....

Considering it's December now, *next year* is but days away, so you are either *planning* a business trip to Ukraine next year or you're going to Ukraine on a business trip sometime next year. ... looking at going to Ukraine next year on a business trip is not only ambiguous but borders on sheer BS. I'm dealing and am in a pretty good mood tonight so I'll just call it what it is straight-up. BS.

...Much of the information on traveling to Ukraine is on sites about marrying FSU women.  That's how I ended up here, and I happened to see this thread that Vasilisa had started....

Uh-huh, okay..

...My primary reason for being on this site was learning the ins and outs of traveling to Ukraine..

Yup, the *ins* and the *outs*...and that's YOUR itinerary for your pending/planned/speculated/imaginary Ukraine business trip next year, I see. OK. Good progress..

I knew it'll come out sooner or later.

... - but I wouldn't be opposed to meeting a good girl while I was there...

Well duh! Of course you're not!!! It happens big boy, LOL. I would even bet the chances of that actually happening is pretty darn good. Yes Siree Bob!

You did peaked my curiosity though. Is it the unfortunate circumstance that either a) you ran out of *nice ladies* from your church/es who introduce you to *nice potential* person/s who are ripe for courtship, or, b) you simply just ran out of church/es?

**(btw dude, sorry, but can we just bag the silly John-Boy talk and call it what it is...dating. I promise Grandpa won't mind.)**

I thought you're so damned convinced the pickings are so good with that nice ladies+church theory/scenario, you're giving out the advice like it's yesterday's papers, man.

Is the church scene a bit slow these days, too?

...Speaking of Russians who are anything but sexual prudes - how about those Skoptsy's?  They were some real sex fiends, huh?...

Oy! Boje Moy! Put down the article Bee and get new materials..


I won't even waste the time quoting them but if you read back to your post/s, there's a very strong and noticeable presence in your replies that is heavily influenced by the sex industry - prostitution, pimps, strip clubs, hookers, etc - and for no apparent reason. Why is that? Care to share something with us about that of yourself Bee Farmer?

...But when you see guys with low standards, who are just looking for an easy lay - if FSU women have such loose morals, why aren't all these guys married by now?

Go ahead and tell us, why aren't YOU married by now?

Oppsss, my bad. That's right. You're still looking at going to Ukraine next year on a business trip.

[Bee Farmer]

Considering it's December now, *next year* is but days away, so you are either *planning* a business trip to Ukraine next year or you're going to Ukraine on a business trip sometime next year. ... looking at going to Ukraine next year on a business trip is not only ambiguous but borders on sheer BS. I'm dealing and am in a pretty good mood tonight so I'll just call it what it is straight-up. BS.

It's supposed to be the biggest international industry event in Ukraine's history.  12,000 visitors expected to Kiev.
http://apimondia2013.org.ua/en/

It's more of a business vacation trip.  I wouldn't be transacting any business, but it would be a tax write-off for business purposes.  I'm really interested in seeing the Propokovitch Museum...and in sort of a macabre way, I'm kind of tempted to take one of the tourist trips up to Chernobyl.

Ukraine President Yanukovych is a beekeeper, and he is giving a lot of support to Apimondia.  Goals are to help improve Ukraine's image and attract business investors.  Ukraine doesn't have the best reputation for business dealings, so I wonder how he plans to attract the business investment.  A sudden crackdown on bribery - or is he going to teach us whose palms need to be greased?

You did peaked my curiosity though. Is it the unfortunate circumstance that either a) you ran out of *nice ladies* from your church/es who introduce you to *nice potential* person/s who are ripe for courtship, or, b) you simply just ran out of church/es?

Neither.  I haven't had been looking in churches.  I haven't really been looking period.  I keep my eyes open, but I don't go out searching to find someone.  It'd be great to find someone, but I've been single long enough that I'm not going to lose sleep if I stay single.

I thought you're so damned convinced the pickings are so good with that nice ladies+church theory/scenario, you're giving out the advice like it's yesterday's papers, man.

I see you have problems reading too.  You thought wrong about what I am convinced of.  Vasilisa wanted suggestions for finding a good guy, and I recommended a church as a place where she had a better chance of finding a good guy than on match.com.

there's a very strong and noticeable presence in your replies that is heavily influenced by the sex industry - prostitution, pimps, strip clubs, hookers, etc - and for no apparent reason. Why is that?

Seeing as how the word date originally meant an appointment with a prostitute, and seeing as how many male attitudes on here seem to view women as only sex objects instead of marriage partners, I think the answer to your question is rather self-explanatory. 
People have confused courtship for a marriage partner with looking at women as sex objects.

Go ahead and tell us, why aren't YOU married by now?

I already answered that, but that would have required reading.   

The short answer - I'd rather be alone than to be miserable by being with someone who wasn't what I wanted.  I haven't yet found a compatible woman that I felt was serious about marriage.