Possible Abusive Situation

[Son of Clyde]

Rando, Have you read Dale Carnegie's book?

[Rando]

Clyde....Do you mean "How to win Friends and Influence People"? :-)

Is your wife and step son still walking all over you ...and are you still blowing up at them insted of dealing reasonably with the relative small problems they create?

[Daknack]

Rando thats not cool man.  I know all 3 of the personally and fairly frequently get together with them.  While there were and still are growing pains at times, you are mischaractorizing all parties here.

[BC]

Rando,

You're the only one feeling sorry for her.  We're quite happy campers.

[Jooky]

The premise of this thread was an unhappily married woman asking for advice on what she should do given her current situation.

After hearing two sides to this story, I stick with my recommendation.

Go home.

If what ccdr says is true she has a mother, son, home, a closet full of expensive clothes, and the same exact situation that she had before she even met her husband. She managed to get by in Ukraine for 41 years. She'll manage to get by now. If a mother and son are "nothing" to go back to, like I said before, this failed marriage in progress is not the first nor last of her problems.

Looking past the exagerrations and unavoidable inconsistencies, both sides of the story given here tell the same tale.

An irrational and materialistic woman hastily married looking for a step up in life. It wasn't a big enough step.

A clueless man hastily married the wrong woman, buying into a fantasy when reality was looking him right in the face.

Two adults hastily marrying for reasons other than love, ignoring each others faults by focusing on solely on the benefits and not taking the time to truly know each other.

Ccdr, I'm glad you posted here. I hope that you will resolve your situation responsibly and that your example can help other men to avoid finding themselves in a similar mess. What advice can you give? How long did you know your wife before you married her? How was the communication between both of you? Looking back, what mistakes did you make?

Here's what I see:

Your wife is not a dreaded Green Card Girl. She did not put on a sweet and innocent act only to later reveal the monster inside. You say that her packing her bags and leaving came completely out of the blue. Then you paint a picture of a woman who has been volatile, temperamental and materialistic since when you met her in Ukraine.

You fed her materialism by sending her 400 dollars a month. While I think that is reasonable for a man to support his wife, you mentioned that you did so as a way to show your love. A man who needs to spend money to show his love typically ends up in a situation such as yours. Never lead with your wallet.

Both stories indicate that your wife wants to work. What have you done to facilitate this? Both stories indicate you have done nothing. You give the excuse that you did not lock her in the house. You prohibit her from finding illegal work, which is admirable. But what have you done to help her?

Does she have her own car? Does she know how to drive? Has she even taken driving lessons? How well does she speak English? Has she been taking lessons? Why did you take so long to begin the process of getting her a Social Security card? Have you done anything at all to aid her in finding legal work here?

These things are your responsibility when you bring over a wife from another country.

 

 

 

 

 

[Son of Clyde]

Rando I feel sorry for you to stoop to posting your little semi-insults to people who may not agree with your opinions. You attacked three people (if only slightly) who contribute more on this and that other board than you could ever hope to contribute. Your low blow at me does not hurt me in the least. It is called adjustment. My wife is making the adjustment, my stepson is making the adjustment and I am making the adjustment. I don't have the experience of the guys on this board who were in 20+ year marriages and it has been trial and error. I will agree that some of the errors were mine. I never paid much attention to your posts before today. Deal with those who may not agree with you in a rational way. Yes, I have lost my temper on the board but not in the open as much as with pm's. I have matured and do not send pm's lately unless they are friendly ones. 

[mischief]

Jooky, BC - good intelligent posts...

[BC]

mischief,

*blush*

common sense + a little 'hard knocks' experience.. that's about it.

[Jet]

I'm just going to focus on this one point here, because of what ccdr14 wrote at visajourney.com (edit: try as I may, I cannot get the link to show up in the post, though it does in the preview :X, anyhow, use Billy's link on the top of page 6 of this thead, then go to page 3 and scroll down to post # 44)

 

Both stories indicate that your wife wants to work. What have you done to facilitate this? Both stories indicate you have done nothing. You give the excuse that you did not lock her in the house. You prohibit her from finding illegal work, which is admirable. But what have you done to help her?  

Were you even aware that had you started the paperwork before the holidays, she most probably could have been working legally since before Christmas? If you weren't aware, why the hell not? Where you also aware that had you done this in a timely fashion, you could have recieved the tax benefit of preparing your return as Married filing jointly for the 2005 tax year? (If money IS an issue, and I'm not saying it is, it would be EXTRA foolish to leave $2500+ in deductions laying on Uncle Sam's table) 

I am constantly amazed at the number of guys that jump into this endevour with little or no clue about the responsibilities they have WRT the gov't. and what options are available to them and their fiancees/spouses.

[Son of Clyde]

I am getting an extra $5,000.00 from Uncle Sam & the State this year.  And this is before my stepson is included. I plan to amend my taxes when he receives his SSN if his EAD is approved. For years I claimed zero exemptions now I have changed my tax status to have more cash on hand for things we need.

It pays to file a joint return.

Time to start saving for the future.

[ccdr14]

JET: Well excuse me for being such a stupid son-of-a-bitch. I can tell that you have all the answers and theefore should go into business being the First Class "Know-it-all."

You know, I was going to respond to your recent post but thought it better not to. I just have to accept that some people like you will find any excuse under the sun to ridicule a person. You've just show me exactly how smart you are.

[Leslie]

ccdr14,

What you post on the internet is NOT anonymous.  If you read the terms of use for RWD (indeed the law is the same for all internet sites)  You will see that Dan (the owner of this board) will forward your ISP details to your wife's lawyer.  Your ISP will provide your personal details.  So what you post about your situation on the internet can be presented as background "character relevant" evidence in court...

Verify this with your own attorney.


 

[Jet]

As I stated wayyyy back on page 3, long before you arrived here, I don't think you're the monster that you are being made out to be by your wife. My gut also tells me that she isn't quite the spoiled brat you make her out to be either. You said in one of your posts that you believed you had done all a good husband should. My take on your commentary is that you DID do all a good American husband should do for his American wife. The only problem is, you don't have an American wife. I still believe that before the restraining orders started flying, this relationship COULD have been saved.

You can get your nose all bent out of shape at me and the other married guys, but who else REALLY has any concept at all of what you've been through? Your head cheerleader in this thread hasn't even been abroad yet.

P.S. - FWIW Spending more time in Ukraine probably would NOT have decreased your chances of ending up exactly where you are, but some minor behavioral modifications on your wife's part as well as your's almost certainly would have...

[ccdr14]

O.K. Jet. I do understand you more now then the previous post.  Then please tell me what can or could a man do to prevent things like this. I'm aware that there would be cultural differences. But don't you think the basics are the same?? Like trusting your spouse when he or she tells you something you are not familiar with. I mean we fell in love because we saw something in each other that could make each of us a stronger better person. (at least I know I did)

I also realize that any relationship takes a 24/7 workload. A relationship is never ending in its evolution and understanding. It takes hard work to make it work. That's what I was ready for. I guess I was sort of blind sided by what she expected of me. Her English upon arival was limited to a few words. Now after having worked with her as well as getting her the different versions of Pimsleur, her English has far improved to the point where she can carry on a fairly good conversation.  I am definitely proud of her accomplishments and look at it as something she set her mind to and not what I helped her do.

Anyway, enough from me. But just again, Jet, what is a man suppose to do to prevent this from happening..(and I'm not being smart)

[Turboguy]

I think in reality when we go through things like ccdr has we are too close to the situation to really look at it objectivly.   I think most every story has two sides and rarely do they sound like the same.   I have seen puzzles that had two columns.  One side was the statement, such as maybe First president of the USA.  Burried somewhere on the other side was the answer such as George Washington.  I have a feeling if you took 10 divorced couples and put the man's story of his marriage on one side and the wives story on the other you could not even start to figure out who was married to who.

I know that in my case, my marriage ended long ago.  I know what my story of my marriage is and I have heard enought to have a pretty good idea of what my former wifes thoughts about our marriage are.   They are as opposite as night and day and the truth is we probably were both good people just not the right people for each other.   I think the same is probably true here.  I don't think either party is telling bold faced lies.  I think both believe what they say, believe the other is at fault and believe they gave it their best shot.

I have never met Jet, but I know him reasonably well.  He has always seemed like he has good ideas and will bend over backwards to help anyone.   I respect him.   I think he is right about the restraining order.  I think it would have been much better to change the locks on the door than to get a restraining order.   I am even a little surprised that you were able to get a restraining order on her.  

I have one personal experience with a restraining order.  I had to get one on an AW I had gotten invoved with and it was not an easy thing to do.  They really have to feel your life is in danger or she (or he) will do you bodily harm.   In my case the girl had pulled a knife on me one time and waved it in a few inches from my eyes and another time I woke up at 4 am with her having broken into my place and she was standing spead eagle over me holding a sharp screwdriver and threating me and even then it was not easy to get it.   I would almost think there must be more we have not heard for you to have been able to get on.

ccdr you seem like a pretty good guy.  Your story sounds like you made a good effort to be fair to her.   Personally, I think you made some mistakes and I think Jet pointed out what they were with some accuracy.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Life is a learning experience.   I think you should have done some things that you did not but those are in the past and can't be changed.   I think you need to accept that both you and your gal did some things that could have been done better and you need to put those behind you and sit down and find a way to help each other go thier own way in life with as much ease and as little harm as possible. 

I think what I am trying to say and having trouble putting into words is that I don't see any chance of your marriage being salvaged.  You need to concentrate on helping her have some kind of life that is acceptable to her so you can move on with your life.   You might have to have someone help you with that but it is what you need to do.  Sitting around thinking she is a bitch and I am going to walk away from it is not the answer.   I wish you luck with it.

 

[Jet]

[user=921]ccdr14[/user] wrote:

I guess I was sort of blind sided by what she expected of me.

IMO this is the crux of the whole situation. I know you haven't been around these types of message boards much, but a common reoccurring theme is "managing expectations". Don't think I'm trying to beat you up, but please consider this...

While your wife was in Ukraine you wanted to take care of her financially, an admirable position. (I don't know where in Ukraine she's from but for sake of this argument, we'll say she is NOT from Kiev.) You sent her $400 per month. this may have been anywhere from 2X to 4X the average salary of her friends and neighbors. She got accustomed to living at a level 2 - 4X higher than others around her, and she liked it. Once she arrived in the US she probably expected that she would continue to live at 2 - 4X the level of the surrounding folks, or at the BARE MINIMUM, certainly not below them. Now, in this context, does any of her "spoiled" behavior make more sense?

 

[BillyB]

Good Point Jet. Personally I think $400 a month is too generous to the point a man would be leading with his wallet.

ccdr14, you need to keep all records of your money wired to her to prove you are indeed a generous person instead of being a tightwad as accused. Obviously someone is lying between you and your wife. Nearly everything you said you did for the wife is provable.  Not being able to prove what you've said here will make people here, and the judge believe you didn't buy the wife anything.

[mischief]

Success of marriage/business/anything is predicated on making intelligent decisions and THEN acting upon them…  It requires commitment, hard work, sacrifice…

It doesn't matter who is lying here… to my mind they both get what they deserve… and they should figure out what were the reasons of their failure...

Though I do tend to side with a woman and I don't believe that any normal woman would walk away on a man if she can see even a slight effort on his part to make the things work…

[jb]

[size="4"]

is predicated on making intelligent decisions

[/i][/b][size="3"]
This is one of the more insightful comments I seen in a while.  I don't think this marriage is salvageable, but I think others could learn something from it.

I don't know what's going on behind closed doors in this, or any other marriage, but I do know something about human nature.  We each have our own brand of "crazy", some is easy to live with, some is not.  Every one of us is born basically equipped the same,  However, the character flaws of a missguided parent, differing economic situations, influences from peer groups, diet,  education achieved, local climates, national political events, wars, and [/size][/size][/font][size="4"][size="3"]even [/size][/size][size="4"][size="3"]natural disasters all are among the many things which shape who we ultimately become.   This individuality trait explains why one person can be a thrill seeking skydiver and his neighbor is mild mannnered and timid.  Some take things to the extreme, while others are harder to notice.  In other words, not all crazy people appear to be sick.

Guys, let us be clear about this, what many of you are doing is simply crazy.  Charging off to a far distant land for a week to meet and marry a woman you cannot communicate with is just plain "nuts".  The ultimate "crazy" is when people do the same thing again and again and again, and each time expect a different outcome.  How do they figure that?  Like the man who is only attracted to a certain type of woman, yet never succeeds with them.  Well, friend, if you can't make it work with the blonds, perhaps you need to throw a brunette into the mix for a change. If you have failed the throughout dozens of romantic encounters you've had with women of your own country, why do you expect a different outcome with a RW?  In other words, if what you are doing isn't yeilding the results you want, you are probably going to have to change something fundamental about yourself before the desired results will appear.  Divorce is a terrible price to pay for being stubborn.






[/size]
[/size]

[Vaughn]

Well written, jb - glad to see you're still around. Jet mentioned "managing expectations" as crucial to the issue - that facet proved my highest hurdle after two failed marriages. I had to quit blaming, and begin to make real measureable changes not only in how I thought, but in my actions - taking ownership of all failures set me free.  

Divorce is a terrible price to pay for being stubborn.

Sure is. The discontentment and frustration taste awful, too. I think we might add "complacency" as well - some here really believe there's a lady out there somewhere who'll just adore his every dysfunctional quirk, and he's contentedly in denial about his need for real change.

Besides going through the motions of transitioning your RW, guys, she really wants to sense your enthusiasm for her presence, and not just at bedtime.

Vaughn

[BillyB]

mischief,

Lying does matter now as the judge will have to determine what's going on. In a domestic divorce that lasted only months, the judge may not award any maintenence to the wife but because the wife is foreign, she said it's ccrd14's fault for not taking care of the paperwork and now she's not legally able to work and the judge could feel pity for her and award maintenence. I know a case where it happened. ccrd14 will need to prove what he done for the wife in the marriage by submitting the dates of documents he filed with government agencies to show he acted in a timely manner and proof he took care of her. Your credibility counts in court. The marriage is over at this point.

I don't think everyone deserves what they get. There are good people getting hurt everyday because they make bad choices. I'm a lot smarter now than I was 10 years ago and I was just a good a person then as I am now. Sh!t happens, but not everyone "deserves" it.

Yes we all have crazy in us but some crazy is extreme but controllable. If ccrd14 said is true what his wife did then put yourself into his shoes. Would any of you put up a temper tantrum if you don't get your way in a store and hit and kick your spouse? Would it cross any of your minds to be happy and joke around with your spouse and daughter one day and then the next, move out forever with claims of possible abuse? That's not normal and possibly planned. I like to hear from woman and the people sheltering this woman for aiding/assisting in the destruction of a marriage. I know they are reading this. Next time any of you wants to interfere with someone's marriage, TRY TO MAKE THE MARRIAGE BETTER BEFORE MAKING IT WORSE. There was never a chance for counseling to take effect in this case.

I tend to believe the husband for the most part because most people don't tend to self destruct on their own in public or at least plan on gettting caught lying. He being 51 years old and should know everything he writes here could be used against him unless he has proof to back himself up. If he doesn't have proof, then his life gets harder for lying and then he gets what he deserves.

 

 

 

[Daknack]

Dont waste your time BillyB, Hes already admitted his prejudice against men and his bias in favor of women.  Its pointless to talk to people like that who make a decision based on sex.

Everyone gets what they deserve?  Where was that attitude when you were screaming this woman was abused?  Doesnt she deserve to be abused for making a mistake?? (I dont agree with that but Im just following your "flawless logic").

[catzenmouse]

Things that have been ignored by or misconceived by posters  in this discussion here at RWD:
       
      - That my wife and I know either one of the separating  couple personally    
      - That my wife and I are in direct contact with either one  of the separating couple    
      - The original post was from another list    
      - It was posted here for the sole purpose of being able to  give options to the original poster of the post on the other list (who does  know them and is involved in the situation) if the situation was/is an actual  abusive situation    
      - My wife and I have no idea if the information is even  being read or given to the woman in question    
      - That my wife and I have made any judgment for or against  either party involved    
      -  And finally,  that my wife and myself care one iota what the opinions are of those who are  quick to judge others and spout off their beliefs/opinions as if they are the  greatest of all truths in life and any who dare to question their righteousness  are to be spat on and kicked to curb as not being worthy of their notice.

[Son of Clyde]

Ken,

I agree with what you are saying and I believe that the responsibility lies with the men when they bring the women here. If they deny her anything she is entitled to, like a work permit, drivers license or SSN, they are at fault. Without these things she has no independence.

Monetary things are up for debate and the guy can always say no.

I still think he needs to let her go and find a way she can remain here and continue her life elsewhere. She needs to be enabled with the things she will need to start over. 

[mischief]

Dont waste your time BillyB, Hes already admitted his prejudice against men and his bias in favor of women.  Its pointless to talk to people like that who make a decision based on sex.

Everyone gets what they deserve?  Where was that attitude when you were screaming this woman was abused?  Doesnt she deserve to be abused for making a mistake?? (I dont agree with that but Im just following your "flawless logic").

Daknack…please, don't embarrass yourself…

for your information I'm not He, I'm a RW.  I'll always side with a woman I know something about them and how hard it is to start from scratch in a foreign country with no place to go to… and I still think it was emotional abuse on the guy part - I wish I could see you living in another country with no rights, no documents, no money (yeah, you have to beg your wife for some cash for socks or any time friends take you out), no means to get around and promises that one day your wife will file your papers and you can work…

People might be poor on the territory of the FSU but they are in control of their lives, they depend on themselves and work hard to survive. They are not animals you can bring here and do whatever you want!

 

Billy, by my line I didn't mean that sh*t happens only to bad ppl…I was talking about relationships and unintelligent decisions people make (like marring a guy she doesn't know and coming to the country with no English and no people to go to in case something happens) …when there are situations like this there is nobody to blame but yourself…. All you can do is  learn from your mistakes (since you are not smart enough to learn from the others) and go forward…