Possible Abusive Situation

[acrzybear]

[glow=yellow] A man can get thrown in jail if a woman makes a 911 call about a domestic dispute.[/glow] It doesn't matter if she's telling the truth or not. It's an uphill battle to be a man these days but the best solution for a man who gets friction from his woman is to walk away and never look back. The same for a woman getting abused. Leave the man forever. [/font]

 

 One of the biggest mistakes people make are that a guy can get thrown in jail for what someone says, I've been a cop in California and Texas and have buddies that work in other states.  The one common denominator in all the states that I am aware of is that there has to be some sign of physical abuse or credible third party to substaniate what happened (children are great for this).  I've run into situations where one party was emotionally hurt and wanted the other to pay so they came up with a story and some even hurt themselves:shock:.

Now if only others had the ability to think as you do and just walk away from the situation:D 

 

 

[Daknack]

the guy you discribe might be a jerk, he might be a controlling a$$hole, but hes not an abuser.  You claim that it is "most of the time" coupled with physical.  When its physical its abuse.  REAL ABUSE.  When its not its being an A$$hole.  Not that being as a$$hole is that much better, but lets call things what they are.

Every marriage has control issues.  Every single one.  Question is a matter of degree.

[Turboguy]

My own two cents worth is that it does not have to be physical to be abuse.  I think you can be what some people consider an emotional abuser, and really be just a jerk.  I think there is such a thing as emotional and mental abuse. 

[catzenmouse]

There has been quite a discussion going on here lately. I continue to forward on the responses to the couple who originated this topic for their friend. Just so you know, I send ALL the responses both positive and negative. The only change I make is to put XXXXX where anyone uses a specific name. Don't know if anyone has any concern about this or not but I figured I would err on the privacy side just in case.

acrazybear is right (as many others of you have pointed out as well) this is coming third party to this board and one way or the other we are not getting all the facts. I do believe that there is a LOT of good information here and I find it to be a most interesting topic. Below is a note sent by the couple with the title "Clarification"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just want to let you know that XXXXX and I did not create the issue between XXXXX and XXXXX.  They need to work out whatever they are going to work out, or not.  My wife only helped XXXXX communicate with XXXXX, and he with her.  I personally did not care for getting in the middle of it, but someone asked for our help.
   
  XXXXX is still interested in any help or advice in this matter.  Anyone wanting details, just get in touch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as abuse is concerned: When I was doing some psychology classes I saw first hand several situations where the woman was never touched physically but was quite scarred emotionally. In one case there was deeply ingrained fear and a noticeable flinch just at the voice of the man involved. She was close to being completely non functional on her own and would only act at the direction of the man.

If you think abuse comes only with bruises then you are sadly mistaken.

Ken

[Jet]

  When its physical its abuse.  REAL ABUSE.  When its not its being an A$$hole. 

 

You must subscibe to the Soviet Socialist School of Family Law :?

This comment reminds me of some reasearch I did back in 2002 on DV in Russia, where I found out that rape cases are classified in 2 seperate catagories:

"real" rape - Where the offender is a stranger to the victim, with a 98% coviction rate and long prison sentences.

and

"unreal" rape - Where the victim knows the offender (usually related by blood or marriage) with a conviction rate hovering around 1% of REPORTED crimes.

Abuse often, but not always leaves marks, and sometimes those marks don't show up until years later, so don't give us this horsesh!t that if there are no visible bruises, there is no abuse, because sometimes bieng an A$$hole is a crime. 

[Jet]

My personal take on the situation as described so far is that this is a couple where both parties are having some difficulty managing expectations vs the reality of the difficulties specific to cross cultural relationships, and neither are equipped, at this time, to deal with those difficulties. If I were to speculate, my guess is that a brief conversation with the man would go something along the lines of "I'm bending over backwards killing myself for that ungrateful b!tch and she can't even have the decency to show some appreciation for all I've done for her!". Sometimes through hard work by both parties, these relationships can be saved, but often enough they are either too far gone, or the man and woman just don't feel the need to work that hard. Several people have suggested marriage counselling. While it can be worthwhile, this is an area where Russians and Americans have opposite views regarding effectiveness, and if the wife doesn't believe counselling will help, which she most probably doesn't, then it certainly won't help.

[BillyB]

[user=60]acrzybear[/user] wrote: 
 "One of the biggest mistakes people make are that a guy can get thrown in jail for what someone says, I've been a cop in California and Texas and have buddies that work in other states.  The one common denominator in all the states that I am aware of is that there has to be some sign of physical abuse or credible third party to substaniate what happened (children are great for this). "

Acrzybear, Most of what I know comes from what people say. Maybe the laws in my State are different and I don't believe everything I hear but I do believe men get thrown in jail for the night without any sign of physical abuse based on the words from a woman true or not. If the woman says the man will hurt her after the cops leave and she's scared of her man, the cops will take the man in jail. Do you know what the financial award would be in a lawsuit against the police department if the cops leave the man with the woman in the same house and then she gets beat or ends up dead the next day? It's safer for the woman and wise for the police to let the man cool down in jail no matter how unfair as the man may think it is. That's why I make it a point to stay away from trailer trash women and wacked men. Some people just can't get along with anybody.
 

 

[Daknack]

Real rape is where the person does not consent, or is forced via physical force or threat of physical force.  Thats the kinda crap Im talking about.  All these candya$$ over psychologized terms take away something from the real form.  Date rape??  What the hell is that?  If its rape its rape it doesnt matter who did it or where.

Im not impressed Cat that you learned that in Psych class, I did too.  You were taught what the establishment wanted you to know, and the establishment is decidedly feminist.  85% of college faculty is liberal so what side do you think your going to hear there?  No one knows for sure what goes through peoples minds.

If someones noting being harmed physically how can you prove that someone is abused?  Some so called expert?  As someone who actually thinks men are innocent until proven guilty, how someone makes someone else feel is not abuse.  You cant see it, you cant touch it, you cant take a xray of it.  Problem is our society today is filled with wimps, cowards, sissys, and men with no emotional strength anymore.  We are all so quick to run to someones ais when someone isnt Mr. Nice guy.  Being and A$$ might be grounds for divorce, but its not abuse.  If someone is mentally abused its because they dont have the capacity to survive in the real world.  "my boss yelled at me so im gonna cry."  "My husband frowned at me and it made me sad"  What the hell happened to the days of "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent"?  Have we become like France and dont know how to handle adversity anymore?  Like it or not we have a god given right to be A$$holes.  Hell I deal with them on a daily basis.  Maybe, we should take a good look at these so called "victims" of psuedo abuse, and put them in a zoo or something because life is hard.  Life is rough and tumble.  If they cant hack it its their own problem.  You all feel so sorry for them you cant bear to tell them the fault for howthey feel, or think  lies with one person.  THEM.  Its like these idiots that do bad in school and complain about the quaility of education.  So we blame the government, lack of funds, teachers, schools, when we should be saying "READ YOU DUMMY".  Sometimes the "victim" is the solution to the problem not the resultant to the problem

[Daknack]

  When its physical its abuse.  REAL ABUSE.  When its not its being an A$$hole. 

 

You must subscibe to the Soviet Socialist School of Family Law :?

Abuse often, but not always leaves marks, and sometimes those marks don't show up until years later, so don't give us this horsesh!t that if there are no visible bruises, there is no abuse, because sometimes bieng an A$$hole is a crime. 
[/quote]
 

We should all hope being an A$$hole isnt a crime.  If it were 99% of the nation would be on death row.

[Turboguy]

Daknack,  I understand your point and your views on it, but as everyone else is saying, you are wrong!

[catzenmouse]

Daknack,  I understand your point and your views on it, but as everyone else is saying, you are wrong!

TG,

 When someone is so convinced that they know everything about  everything they who are we (apparently just a bunch of pu$$y whipped  whimps) to tell them that they could ever be wrong about anything. Just  ain't worth the effort.

Ken

[Daknack]

Actually everyone else is not saying that.  Im just the most vocal on my position.  to be said I think your position outnumbers mine by about 5:3 but that hardly makes me a lone voice. 

I understand your position are well.  I simply disagree with it, and I dont think we will be able to reach a middle ground.

To Ken, Im fully capable of being convinced I am wrong on issues (Though I admit it rarely happens).  I just feel that no arguement is convincing enough on your position.  The two most articulate debates came from Jet (a position opposed by me) and BillyB (a position supported by me)  Both positions are fairly moderate I would say.  As for myself I would be more convincing I think if I were not so outraged about the state of masculinity today and went on rants a bit less, but then ranting is within my nature.  Perhaps I have abused member od this board :?

[acrzybear]

  Its like these idiots that do bad in school and complain about the quaility of education.  So we blame the government, lack of funds, teachers, schools, when we should be saying "READ YOU DUMMY".  Sometimes the "victim" is the solution to the problem not the resultant to the problem

[glow=yellow]This point I could not agree with you more, I don't know how many times I've run into situations where the person that screwed up stated that it wasn't their fault. If your kids are doing poorly in school, take action and get involved.  We are all responsible for the decisions we make in life and no one else [/glow]

[Daknack]

I wouldnt try to prove Love in a court.  Legal standing IMO demands something more concrete when peoples lives, freedom, reputation, jobs, and family is on the line.

Although were I to attempt to prove love legally I might analize the brain chemically.

[Son of Clyde]

Daknack and Ken are both people I have spoken with on the phone or met in person and I like them both. Ken knows the man in question and I have no reason to disbelieve anything Ken would post here.

On another web site this man has defended himself so I have read his side. In many ways there are similarities to what I experienced in the begginning and my wife accepted some things she had done wrong and still holds firm to her passion (shopping). She has learned that money does not grow on trees and that you can't buy everything you see. She accepts the role as housewife but hopes for a job some day. I give her love and some freedom although I worry when she is gone from home and has not contacted me. I have accepted she has faults and she has accepted that I have faults.

The alleged abuser made a very self righteous post making his wife appear to be some kind of a monster. I saw their pictures and she looks quite normal to me.

I think we should stand back and realize that there are couples who are just not meant for each other. I am hoping the guy will just let her go on with her life and that she be able to remain in the US and adjust on her own.

[al-c]

Whether or not this woman is being abused is not for us to decide.  If the law is on her side and she wants to use it, that is all she needs.  If one of you thinks the law should be other than what it is, write to your congressperson and ask them to change the law, but for now the law is the law.

She needs an attorney, period.  Since she does not have the means to pay for one, she should look for the nearest legal services project.  I don't know what is in her area, but there are several here in New York and likely one or more where she lives too.

[Turboguy]

Good post al.  I think everywhere there is free legal services available for women in that situation.  Even here in our little place their is one guy whose whole business is pro-bono work for the women who are in this situation.  (by pro-bono I don't mean he does not get paid, just that the women don't pay him)  

You also make a good point about whatever we think about what is and is not abuse does not matter a bit and your solution is the right one.

[Rando]

Turboguy

I dont see the disagreement with Daknack as you suggest....you are being as realistic about this thread as you are with a search for a RW....

I just love the leap many have made now to the emotional abuse theory.....hell Ive seen more men be emotionally abused by women than visa verse! Probably alot right here on this site ...looking for the "pasive", "traditional" RW becasue they have had their guts ripped out by some local princess.

Nothing but a bunch of whining liberal crap! You guys make these situations possible by pussy footing past one sides mistakes in favor of the other side....in this case you believe every word of this womans story ....even suggesting she needs a lawyer at this point ...when a lawyer should always be the last step...

I still think she is simply a typical RW ...they stretch the truth to help win an argument...this is a part of russian culture...they like to argue and they like to win....Id be willing to bet he buys her underwear and kotex....

The fact that some guy doesnt like what this guy said ignores what was going on in the instant situation....maybe they were having an argument and the man didnt feel like speaking highly about his wife...it doesnt make him a jerk or an abuser...although he might be both....there is simply not enough info to give any real advice..

My experience has shown me that a RW will use a situation to win an argument...no matter what...it must be someting in the culture...they will say almost anything just to be pronounced correct....reality is unimportant....

Just listen to Helen ...I think shes here too....this is the typical RW....she is never wrong...she will use false logic ...and when she is still losing she will tell you that you are not smart enough to understand her orginal point....she will say one time that blue is red and the next time that red is black....

I honestly think this is the case with this woman...just listen to her logic about returning to Ukraine or Russia or where ever shes from....

You guys simply want to jump to the defense of the poor RW....just wait until you see a RW in action and you are on the wrong end of the stinky stick...:-) Im betting shes a big girl with a plan...

Maybe her hubby is an a$$hole....and shes trying to change him....it happens....

I dont see abuse and a lawyer is bad advice at this point. We all agree that she already holds all the legal cards...if anyone needs the lawyer its probably the guy...:-)

 

 

 

 

[Elen]

[user=456]Rando
Just listen to Helen ...I think shes here too....this is the typical RW....she is never wrong...she will use false logic ...and when she is still losing she will tell you that you are not smart enough to understand her orginal point....she will say one time that blue is red and the next time that red is black....
[/quote]

As far as I recall Rando you NEVER managed to prove that I was wrong with some agruments on discussed sucbjects  except your posts a-ka "Helen is ..... blah-blah-blah"

[Leslie]

Al-c - like many New Yorkers I know you summarize this situation very succinctly!

As outsiders we will never know the details of this relationship and quite frankly it is none of our business.  A steady stream of guys open sob threads on the boards and I am usually tough on them.  The fact they need to air their private business on a public forum looking for sympathy and support tells me a lot about their character right from the begining....

There is a simple fact here.  As the law stands now once you are married, if your wife WANTS to stay she can.  A guy can only get hurt trying to prevent this.

If you have been smart a divorce after a short marriage is not going to be ruinously expensive.  You can offer a one off payment in full and final settlement if she returns voluntarily.  Eastern Europeans are grnerally hard working so you are not going to be paying alimony for years and years.

NEARLY ALL THE PROBLEMS ARISE WHEN THE GUY IS CHEAP AND CONTROLLING AND TRIES TO DIVORCE AND SEND HIS EX-WIFE BACK WITH VIRTUALLY NOTHING.

Rando you display this attitude real well !  Some times the woman is ignorant of her rights and this might work.  However if she finds out about her true situation the guy's ass will be toast. 

There is someone far more vindictive than a woman scorned. 

It is a Russian or Ukrainian woman scorned :hairraising:

So guys forget about annulments.  Appeals to the USCIS that your wife is a scammer.  None of them work.

The best defense to all of this sh*t is not to marry a stranger. 

I have been posting this advice for over 6 years now but there will always be guys who won't listen.  The type of guy who marries a stranger won't take responsibility for the consequences of his stupid behavior....

[Rando]

My goodness Leslie...you must be the dumest man on earth....!

You are still trying to convince me that a woman can stay if she wants to....and I agree....what part of that dont you understand....I AGREE....I also know the law is on the womans side....again......I agree....can you read....or do you always make up arguments for people and then answer the argument yourself?

OTOH...A person who commits fraud in order to obtian a visa..... and if that fraud is proven will be returned....unless you know something the whole rest of immigration literate know.........Im sure there are 10's of thousands of Mexicans who would love to talk to you and learn your method.

Are you really Andrew???? or are you at least brothers?

Hellen...errrr Ellen How could I prove you are wrong about anything...you have never been wrong...:-)

 

[BC]

Quite right on all counts Leslie.

Hey Rando.. married over three years now to a RW with permanent Euro greencard for the last two.. haven't seen the stinkystick or anything resembling a plan yet.  You seem to bear some kind of grudge against RW and mention the argumentative qualities and methods of RW.. interesting that I note similar qualities in your own rebuttals.  Did something rub off?  Care to describe any personal experiences that may have warped you?

[Elen]

Hellen...errrr Ellen How could I prove you are wrong about anything...youhave never been wrong...:-)

You could try (for once at least) to prove that you were right using some agruments about discussed subjects but not only giving your descriptions to my personality

[Jet]

 

OTOH...A person who commits fraud in order to obtian a visa..... and if that fraud is proven will be returned....unless you know something the whole rest of immigration literate know.........Im sure there are 10's of thousands of Mexicans who would love to talk to you and learn your method.

We all know the way the law SHOULD work, unfortunately that is not the reality. Maxx's case is a stirling example, where fraud was proven without question, and yet his Ex. is currently residing somewhere in the DC area with a shiny new greencard. This is something that, sadly, far too many of the "immigration literate" have discovered the hard way. What is law and What is are often two vastly different things.

[Daknack]

See jet that is what is bothering Rando and I.  These people seem more concerned with if she can divorce her husband, then if she should.  Further more they seem adamant that she get a green card when they know nothing of the situation and label any opposition as "abuse".  This is why we have the problem with false charges that we do because idiots are all too willing to line up to assist someone that isnt really abused simply because the person claims abuse.  This kind of behavior is why some men wouldnt want thier wives associating with other RW, because thier husbands have been taken to the "vet" so to speak and cant say "Hey this is crap you cant just support this person and divide her against her husband simply because you come from the same nation".  These are the types of people that divide a marriage, and have a subtle insidious intrusion in a marriage that can poison it.  People like that shouldnt be let into your home, or even spoken too in a civil manner as it is best to discourage contact with thim.  Couples that with a willingness to take her side with little information, assigning the name of "abuser" to someone thats never abused is a major problem.  People like this are part of the problem with why things dont work how they should work.

As for rando's spelling, there isnt a single poster here (myself included) that doesnt mispell words, or mistype letters, or use grammer incorrectly.  Rather then looking at someones grammer as a case for his proposition, you should look at the construction of the proposition itself.  I also never thought I would see the day that I was defending Rando's position.  He is abrasive... but hes not wrong here.  Wait... is that abrisive, or abusive?