Reforming Russia?

[The Natural]

I understand and agree with Chivo here. It might not be a police state like Nazi-Germany or Stalin-Russia, yet, but we must realize this is a process, small steps and finally one day, we're firmly living in a police state. And this isn't only in USA, it's also creeping closer and closer in western Europe. Let's take the latest from Denmark for example. Now hotels and so on are required to keep track of their visitors phone calls and e-mails and store them for 13 years! So write an e-mail to someone from a hotel and write one of the code words in the subject field and risk a visit from the police.
 

[BC]

Just skimmed the last few pages of this thread.

Relevant or not.......

One has to remember that Russia is quite young in political terms.  Yes some criticize Putin and his crowd, but I think the overall feeling is that Putin 'fills the bill' in this stage of development.

I am quite confident that within the next decade or so that RU will transform to a nation that can live and even thrive without him.

US democracy has evolved over hundreds of years into what it is today.. and as a long term expat I do not like what I see.  I think younger democracies will fare better in the long term.

As to the subjective term 'police state', unfortunately I do put the US at the top of that list especially recently with the reduction of what is called 'freedom'.  Long ago US citizens were proud to exclaim that the blood shed for those freedoms were worth it, but what I see today is that a rather selfish society bleeds for the wrong reasons and ends up being quite restrictive as far as individual freedom goes.

That also is a part of the evolution of politics.. a cycle if you will..  one that RU is beginning and the US is ending...

JIMHO.

[Daveman]

Just skimmed the last few pages of this thread.

Relevant or not.......

One has to remember that Russia is quite young in political terms.  Yes some criticize Putin and his crowd, but I think the overall feeling is that Putin 'fills the bill' in this stage of development.

I am quite confident that within the next decade or so that RU will transform to a nation that can live and even thrive without him.

US democracy has evolved over hundreds of years into what it is today.. and as a long term expat I do not like what I see.  I think younger democracies will fare better in the long term.

As to the subjective term 'police state', unfortunately I do put the US at the top of that list especially recently with the reduction of what is called 'freedom'.  Long ago US citizens were proud to exclaim that the blood shed for those freedoms were worth it, but what I see today is that a rather selfish society bleeds for the wrong reasons and ends up being quite restrictive as far as individual freedom goes.

That also is a part of the evolution of politics.. a cycle if you will..  one that RU is beginning and the US is ending...

JIMHO.

+1 ... nice summation. 

[erikmagenta]

While not a police state yet, I agree with the Natural that our liberties are being chipped away bit by bit.  Since september 11 the searches of grandmothers and children at airports  is over the top.  Google also stores all your searches.  Facebook is allegedly a product of the CIA.  many cities have cameras giving people tickets (a machine) instead of a human being.

[calmissile]

Quote from Noelscot

In Robert Kaplan's The Coming Anarchy, he has an article, "Was Democracy Just a Moment?"
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/12/was-democracy-just-a-moment/6022/

That was some pretty heavy reading. Good article.

I have to agree that our personal liberties are being whittled away a little at a time.  Years ago I remember reading about how democracies fail and this was one of the key points in the article.  It can takes generations, but if it is done a little at a time, eventually you have no liberties.  The problem is that one generation gets used to the status quo and does not miss what it did not experience during their life.  Then more gets whittled away and the next generation does not miss it or know any better.

This has also happened to our constitution.   We now have the revisionist sector of the Supreme Court that believes it is their responsibility to 'make law'  vs. the constructionist sector of the court that believes if it is not specifically addressed in the constitution it is up to the states to make the law.  As we have seen over the past 50 years, the Supreme Court has largely replaced Congress in making the law of the land.  Most recently, the president thinks he has the power to make law rather than congress.

Someone wrote a great book or article on the history of democracies.  Can't remember who it was, but it describes the history and sequence that all democracies go through from beginning to end.  If someone remembers the author, you might post it.  When you compare America's history with his theory, it appears that we are definitely on the downside of the curve.

What caught my attention in the thread was chivo's comment that California is a police state.  The statement was ridiculous, and that is why I responded.

The post by LivefromUkraine was also interesting.  He posted this link to bolster chivo's statement.

"Pretty sad you need to be protected from criminals like this."

http://news.sky.com/story/925707/california-to-hurl-fines-at-frisbee-throwers

At first glance you might think, yea that is pretty stupid.  However if you took the time to read past the sensational headline, you will probably form a different opinion.  I don't think it supports chivo's argument at all.

The article addresses a long standing law about prohibiting 'airborne projectiles' on our crowded beaches in L.A. and is only in affect a few months of the year.  Crowded sunbathers do not want to be trampled over by frisbee chasers, nor do they want to get hit in the face by an errant frisbee.  It is also noted that specific areas of the beach are set aside for frisbee and other similar activities.  Seems like a logical law to me!

The same people that would argue with this law are probably the same ones that protest about the restriction of skateboards in malls, etc.  Little old ladies do not like getting run over or knocked down by kids on skateboards.

With our younger generations not even realizing the freedoms we have already lost, it is unlikely they will wake up or get educated on the topic until something affects them directly such as some new prohibition that affects them personally.  Unfortunately, I do not see any light at the end of the tunnel that would change the direction we are taking toward the continued loss of our liberties.
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Quote from Noelscot

In Robert Kaplan's The Coming Anarchy, he has an article, "Was Democracy Just a Moment?"
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/12/was-democracy-just-a-moment/6022/

That was some pretty heavy reading. Good article.

I have to agree that our personal liberties are being whittled away a little at a time.  Years ago I remember reading about how democracies fail and this was one of the key points in the article.  It can takes generations, but if it is done a little at a time, eventually you have no liberties.  The problem is that one generation gets used to the status quo and does not miss what it did not experience during their life.  Then more gets whittled away and the next generation does not miss it or know any better.

This has also happened to our constitution.   We now have the revisionist sector of the Supreme Court that believes it is their responsibility to 'make law'  vs. the constructionist sector of the court that believes if it is not specifically addressed in the constitution it is up to the states to make the law.  As we have seen over the past 50 years, the Supreme Court has largely replaced Congress in making the law of the land.  Most recently, the president thinks he has the power to make law rather than congress.

Someone wrote a great book or article on the history of democracies.  Can't remember who it was, but it describes the history and sequence that all democracies go through from beginning to end.  If someone remembers the author, you might post it.  When you compare America's history with his theory, it appears that we are definitely on the downside of the curve.

What caught my attention in the thread was chivo's comment that California is a police state.  The statement was ridiculous, and that is why I responded.

The post by LivefromUkraine was also interesting.  He posted this link to bolster chivo's statement.

"Pretty sad you need to be protected from criminals like this."

http://news.sky.com/story/925707/california-to-hurl-fines-at-frisbee-throwers

At first glance you might think, yea that is pretty stupid.  However if you took the time to read past the sensational headline, you will probably form a different opinion.  I don't think it supports chivo's argument at all.

The article addresses a long standing law about prohibiting 'airborne projectiles' on our crowded beaches in L.A. and is only in affect a few months of the year.  Crowded sunbathers do not want to be trampled over by frisbee chasers, nor do they want to get hit in the face by an errant frisbee.  It is also noted that specific areas of the beach are set aside for frisbee and other similar activities.  Seems like a logical law to me!

The same people that would argue with this law are probably the same ones that protest about the restriction of skateboards in malls, etc.  Little old ladies do not like getting run over or knocked down by kids on skateboards.

With our younger generations not even realizing the freedoms we have already lost, it is unlikely they will wake up or get educated on the topic until something affects them directly such as some new prohibition that affects them personally.  Unfortunately, I do not see any light at the end of the tunnel that would change the direction we are taking toward the continued loss of our liberties.

I am simply amazed at what people think is acceptable.  Cal you started off very good with your post then resorted back to why democracy won't work.  It is acceptable to limit behavior if you don't care or are in the majority. 

A lot of people think NDAA isn't a big deal because it won't affect them.

IMBRA is cool also since majority doesn't have arrest warrants.  It isn't like it will affect the majority of people so why not jump through some hoops to make the government happy.

Now we will be taxed with a penalty if we don't carry health insurance.  Companies will be taxed more if they don't provide health care for their employees.

The government should take away cars. Those are the most lethal projectiles out there.

Sorry, when you start picking and choosing what freedom is "ok" to take away you already lost.  If you are saying some stuff is ok to take away then you are part of the problem and shouldn't complain when something you enjoy or like is taken away from you.

I guarantee you, eventually, you will have something you enjoy taken away.  So don't bitch about it when it happens.

[GQBlues]

I suppose in some ways one can look at California as a police state. For instance, you can no longer smoke in your own dwelling if you lived in an apartment complex. You can't smoke on beaches, restaurants, buildings, offices, etc...or anywhere there's gathering of the public.

You must stop for pedestrians, etc...

Yeah...I could go on and on but I think there's valid point to be made that freedom certainly had wither away in California.

 

[LiveFromUkraine]

I suppose in some ways one can look at California as a police state. For instance, you can no longer smoke in your own dwelling if you lived in an apartment complex. You can't smoke on beaches, restaurants, buildings, offices, etc...or anywhere there's gathering of the public.

You must stop for pedestrians, etc...

Yeah...I could go on and on but I think there's valid point to be made that freedom certainly had wither away in California.

 

GQ, I think if there was enough skateboarders, they could ban little old ladies from malls so they don't get in their way.   

[JayH]

GQ, I think if there was enough skateboarders, they could ban little old ladies from malls so they don't get in their way.   

Hell no-- it would be boring without them !!

[mendeleyev]

From the Mendeleyev Journal:
A trial balloon perhaps?
Akado Telcom, in a move that mirrored current legislation regarding Internet and  TV channels, announced on Thursday morning that they were dropping the popular CNN, BBC, and Bloomberg news channels. The move set in motion a day of speculation about censorship with viewers swamping station switchboards from all over the country.
In the evening however those channels were back on the air. Officials at Akado Telcom avoided media contact for most of the day but later tried to feed the media a story about the need for broadcast licenses for cable channels. Truth is, the cable system already has the required operational licenses. Tag on Twitter have included messages about President Vladimir Putin and one can simply write "Curtain" in place of the former iron curtain.
Most viewers are just glad to have the services back on.
                     

[Faux Pas]

From the Mendeleyev Journal:
A trial balloon perhaps?
Akado Telcom, in a move that mirrored current legislation regarding Internet and  TV channels, announced on Thursday morning that they were dropping the popular CNN, BBC, and Bloomberg news channels. The move set in motion a day of speculation about censorship with viewers swamping station switchboards from all over the country.
In the evening however those channels were back on the air. Officials at Akado Telcom avoided media contact for most of the day but later tried to feed the media a story about the need for broadcast licenses for cable channels. Truth is, the cable system already has the required operational licenses. Tag on Twitter have included messages about President Vladimir Putin and one can simply write "Curtain" in place of the former iron curtain.
Most viewers are just glad to have the services back on.
                     

Perhaps a trial balloon, perhaps not. Cable channels periodically raise their rates to select cable outlets to which most just refuse to pay until they get outcry from subscribers. It would be worth watching though

[BC]

http://www.voanews.com/content/russian-activists-criticize-kremlin-over-ngo-law/1442526.html

Russian activists are criticizing the Kremlin for a new law that labels non-governmental organizations (NGO's) receiving financial support from abroad as "foreign agents."

The new measure has taken effect a month after President Putin signed a bill imposing huge fines for participating in unauthorized demonstrations

I can't say I disagree with the first part.  Economics have become a major 'tool of war' nowadays.  Just look at the financial harm Bin Laden and his small crew did.  Along with national sovereignty I think it is prudent to address political sovereignty by limiting available economic tools from foreign sources.

As far as limitations on demonstrations, I would hope that once foreign influence is tempered a bit that permits will be more freely available.

Not that the Russian's aren't worried about Syria because they are concerned. At Friday's meeting of the President's Security Council the Syrian situation took up a great deal of the discussion ending with a strongly worded statement by President Putin that any attempts to bypass the UN Security Council will be ineffective and lead to undermining the authority of the United Nations. Frankly, that is a bit self-serving given the fear of the Kremlin for a similar revolution on Russian soil.

The Mendeleyev Journal agrees with the Russian position on Syria. From Europe to Iraq and Afghanistan, etc, every time the Americans rush in to topple some despot, we somehow end up on the wrong side of the issue. Middle East and European Christians, natural US allies, have suffered greatly with thousands being killed while the Muslim populations we've "liberated" invariably turn on us in short order.

Message to Obama: Stay out of Syria.
   

Putin's message seems to be quite constant...  Obama/Clinton: Stay out of Russian politics also..

Now some may thing all this is leaning towards oppressing RU citizens and/or going back to the old ways, but consider those thoughts as collateral damage.  Putin is simply drawing lines in the sand during a period of relative economic strength that provides him with the power and popular support to do so.

I've also noticed over the years that the common man (and esp. women), both in the East and West, do seem to admire leaders that are able to wield their powers vs ineffective, watered down political systems that will not allow a leader to go as far as Putin can and does.. -unless a war is involved.

[mendeleyev]

Mendeleyev Journal:

Is is "payback time" for regions that didn't support United Russia in the election?

Russian prosecutors are on the prowl for leaflets which claim that the Kremlin is punishing the residents of regions where vote totals for United Russia were low this past December and March. One might wonder if it is payback time, but don't do so too loudly because the government says that the leaflets detailing examples of "payback" for those failing to vote for the majority party are "extremist" and those caught posting one online or distributing them in public could face prison time under the just signed new law on extremism.

One leaflet in circulation across Russia compares utility rates for regions that supported Mr. Putin's party as opposed to those that didn't and the facts don't seem to paint a very rosy picture. For example, the region of Vologda managed just a 33% vote for United Russia. Does that matter today to Vologda families? Are residents of Vologda being punished for their failure to vote for Mr. Putin and the United Russia party?

Well, apparently a resident of the Vologda region pays 1228 rubles per Gigacalorie (Gcal) for heat but over in Ingushetia where the vote for United Russia was much higher, the Gcal rate is just 905 rubles. What about another basic utility, like water? Dagestan households, with a high vote for United Russia, receive water at 7.30 rubles per cubic meter while Vologda homes are charged 21 rubles per cubic meter for water, almost 3 times the rate for Dagestan.

The pamphlet appears to make a good case but one must also take into consideration the delivery of utilities and cost of production in each region. Even so, the disparities in prices are cause for concern. Just don't get caught with one of the leaflets in your possession or post one online, else you may find yourself sitting next to someone famous--like Mikhail Khordorksky.
               

[mendeleyev]

(Opinion from the Mendeleyev Journal)

Pardon us for being moved by this poster from Moscow's "New Times" newspaper. It shows свобода, the word for FREEDOM in Russian, being crushed by current events and the current government. Yet, the phrase "... and we grow stronger" ("... а мы крепчаем") is testimony to the constant and abiding hope of so many of the Russian people.

[Muzh]

The Post’s View
 
Take that, Mr. Tandem

 
By Editorial Board, Published: August 12

WHEN HE TOOK office as Russian president for a third term in May, there was a bit of uncertainty about the course Vladimir Putin would choose. The streets were packed with angry protesters. Might he take a modernizing path, or would he stick to the authoritarian prickliness of his earlier years as president?

Each week, Mr. Putin demonstrates anew that he is locked in his old ways. In response to the demonstrations, he rammed through legislation sharply increasing fines for violation of the public order. Then came a law requiring nongovernmental organizations that get money from abroad and engage in political activity to register as “foreign agents.” Opposition leaders were harassed.

Now comes a sign that Mr. Putin is preparing to turn his back on his onetime protégé, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, who served as president in between Mr. Putin’s terms. The iPad-toting Mr. Medvedev had come to symbolize hopes for a more open and liberalizing Russia. But the “tandem,” as his partnership with Mr. Putin was once called, seems to be unraveling.

The latest evidence is a video posted Aug. 5 on YouTube. No one knows exactly who made the video, part of a longer film titled “A Lost Day,” but the message is unvarnished: Mr. Medvedev was a coward at the outset of war with Georgia in 2008, when he was president. The criticism comes from, among others, a former chief of the general staff, Yuri Baluyevsky, a retired general who says Mr. Medvedev dithered and refused to give the proper orders until Mr. Putin delivered a “kick” in the pants. At the time, Mr. Putin was prime minister and attending the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Mr. Baluyevsky is biased; he was forced into retirement by Mr. Medvedev before the war. But after the clip appeared, Mr. Putin dignified it with a public response. Mr. Medvedev has repeatedly insisted he acted alone in the early hours of the Georgia conflict. But Mr. Putin flatly contradicted him, saying that he telephoned Mr. Medvedev twice from the Olympics to discuss the war. The implication is that Mr. Putin had to tell him what to do. Mr. Putin is attempting to demonstrate — should there be any doubts — who is the tough guy.

In his remarks about the video, Mr. Putin also reignited the long dispute about who started the war. Russia says that Georgia started shooting first. Georgia says that Russia provoked the conflict. Putin acknowledged approving a war contingency plan for Georgia in 2007, a year before hostilities began. He also confirmed that Russia trained separatist fighters in the breakaway enclave of South Ossetia, where the conflict first broke out, while also stationing peacekeeping forces there. While Mr. Putin’s remarks settled nothing, he seemed to be saying that Russia was eager and ready to give a bloody nose to Georgia, which had become a major recipient of U.S. aid.

Mr. Putin’s direction bodes ill for Russia and for Russians. The country desperately needs modernization, both political and economic, but Mr. Putin is going backward. There will probably be more bloody noses before he is finished.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/take-that-mr-tandem/2012/08/12/7052e03e-e32a-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html

[mendeleyev]

In today's Mendeleyev Journal:

Less than two years after then-President and current Prime Minister Medvedev ordered charges delayed for an executive review of a prior court verdict, Judge Yevgeny Dvoryanchikov of the Zadneprovsky Smolensk regional court today sentenced "Other Russia" party activist Taisiya Osipova (Таисия Осипова) to eight years in prison on drug possession charges even though state prosecutors had asked the court for a  four year sentence.

 
Taisiya Osipova, Smolensk jail, 2011. (photo: lentu.ru)

The primary defense witness Anton Mandrik had told the court that he'd received threats from police not to testify and passed a lie detector test after the claims were challenged by the prosecution.

Osipova, who is diabetic and the mother of a 6 year old daughter, has been remanded to a low security prison colony. Her attorneys pledged to begin immediate appeals. The court rendered the verdict despite the fact that the prosecution's chief witnesses are alleged to have ties to the Kremlin and United Russia party. She has been in jail since November 2010. Ms. Osipova has been represented by local Smolensk attorney Natalya Shaposhnikova and attorney Svetlana Sidorkina from the human rights association Agora.



(Agora human rights.)

There have been prior claims even from liberal sources that she was a drug user including during an "Echo Moscow" radio show last year hosted by journalist Yulia Latynina who said that Osipova was a drug addict, a charge her husband denied.
 
Osipova's attorneys say that the drugs found in her apartment were planted by officers in an illegal search in retaliation for her refusal to provide information on her husband, Sergei Fomchenkov, who lives in Moscow and is an activist with the unregistered Other Russia opposition party associated with Eduard Limonov, Sergei Aksenov and Sergei Udaltsov.

Osipova first made headlines in 2003 for smacking then-governor Viktor Maslov in the face with a bouquet of carnations. She was given a one-year suspended sentence for that incident. In 2011 she was sentenced by the same judge to ten years for possession and sale of drugs under Article 228.1, Paragraph 3 of the Criminal Code, however Russia's President at the time, Dmitry Medvedev, immediately ordered the sentence vacated and reviewed because of glaring illegalities in the prosecution's case.


 
(What will happen to Osipova's daughter, Katarina Fomchenkova?)

The World Organization Against Torture had twice asked authorities to release Osipova. The traditional "Strategy 31" opposition rally at Triumfalnaya Square on December 31 in 2011 was dedicated to Taisiya and other political prisoners in Russia.
             

[mendeleyev]

In another thread, Ed asked:

Hey Jim,
how would you describe the attitudes of Russians around you toward Putin these days? He used to enjoy popularity, but now more and more I hear the voice of discontent with his power grab "for life", and some people are even talking of the possibility of civil war. It's probably "just talking" but still...

There are reports of a recent polling that says his popularity has dropped substantially but I've not seen it.

He is making the man on the street very nervous. The government is moving to control the internet by making online opposition to the government a crime, and he's about to be sued by the European Courts over issues regarding Gazprom and making prior and future foreign deals with Gazprom subject to Kremlin approval, and there are rumours of big shakeups coming to the Prime Minister's office in October.

Moscow city hall just approved a permit for another protest march to be held this Saturday, the 15th.

A major Duma member who has opposed Mr. Putin is up for expulsion because of the "crime" of running a business while being a member of parliament (you'd have to expel ALL ministers of parliament if that were a crime) so the average Russian may be seeing a side of the tough Putin that makes them uncomfortable.

His old ally, former Minister of Finance/Treasury and well-respected member of the opposition Alexi Kudrin has just called for a new political party to be formed to represent the business community and middle class so life is not all that peachy for V.P. at the moment.

So, to answer your question, yes it may appear that he is losing popularity. Right now he is trying to manage a war against Moscow and St Petersburg residents by pitting them against rural and less educated Russians where his power base is strongest. Truth is, all change has and will come from the two capitals.

[mendeleyev]

If you're looking around Russia for signs of how everyday Russians are feeling regarding the state of politics in Russia, discontent is easy to spot.



Ruling party United Russia's bear isn't doing too well in this sign.

From apartment floor garbage chutes to graffiti, it would seem that anti-Putin sentiment is growing. 



Moscow City Hall has approved this coming Saturday's permit for a protest March.



Due to restrictive new laws designed to punish protesters, organizers are asking participants to act calmly and not provoke police. Plans call for speeches and music performances in addition to a show of strength to the authorities.

[Eduard]

The voice of discontent... A very famous Russian performer from the band "Time Machine" that has been around since the 70s wrote a song "Vanya puknul v hrame" {Ivan farted in church} to protest the government's harsh crack down on the all female punk band the members of which were sentenced to 2 years in prison.
http://tv.mk.ru/video/3822-makarevich-spel-pesnyu-vanya-pnul-v-hrame.html

[ML]

MOSCOW — Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has called for three members of the punk band Pussy Riot to be freed, saying further prison time would be "unproductive."
Medvedev's comments on Wednesday could signal the band members' imminent release as their case comes up for appeal on Oct. 1.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/medvedev-calls-for-pussy-riot-to-be-freed-312867.html

[mendeleyev]

ML, perhaps you are right. However there is a growing distance between Medvedev and Putin these days with rumoured big changes coming to the PM's office in October as dictated from above. Medvedev also hinted at an early release for Mikhail Khodorkovsky last year and that never happened.

Medvedev is younger and more open to reforms than the older Putin and he understands the incredible damage that the botched elections in December and then March had on freedom minded middle class Russians. The Pussy Riot affair has taken on an amazing life of its own and found support in the oddest of places. It is no longer about "Pussy Riot" as much as the idea of opposing the idea of government shoved down the throat of citizens and as such the Pussy Riot idea has found support over a wider age and class structure than Putin realizes.

[mendeleyev]

In the Mendeleyev Journal today...

When it comes to this Saturday's call for a protest march in Moscow and other cities, we have no idea how many souls will brave the draconian new laws expressly designed to intimidate and limit political protests, but if one thing is certain it is this: the staff at the Mendeleyev Journal loves gadgets. We found this one on the blog site of opposition figure Aleksei Navalny.





In fact the male members of the editorial staff seem to have found it so intriguing that they've pretty much just sat there all day watching that little dial, heads jerking left to right in synch with the needle.

It is a sight to behold--the staff that is. But perhaps that is what makes the little tool so effective because they may not have paid attention to much else for the last 8 hours, but can tell you that Всероссийский день протеста (All-Russian Day of Protest) is set for this Saturday (15 сентябрь) 15 September.

In that sense, the little gadget is truly quite effective.

[mendeleyev]

PS...do you recognize anything about the other numbers on the dial?

[Faux Pas]

PS...do you recognize anything about the other numbers on the dial?

Is it a Geiger counter?

[mendeleyev]

Is it a Geiger counter?

Good try, but no. The number combinations are the dates of previous important protests going back to the December DUMA elections.