Ice Cube's Chance in Hell ...

[IAmZon]

yep, I get it.  I will let the tide take me for a while, rather than paddle.  I think anything I do before my little tour is taboo.  Afterwards I will know much more - hell, I could even get "lucky."


BUT HERE IS A QUESTION:  What is so bad and sinister in Ukraine that gives apparently ALL the motivation to leave the country, and hold it in such low regard?  Colombian girls do not have it any better ... but they love their country and family and friends.  They would greatly prefer to NOT leave.

[Faux Pas]

yep, I get it.  I will let the tide take me for a while, rather than paddle.  I think anything I do before my little tour is taboo.  Afterwards I will know much more - hell, I could even get "lucky."


BUT HERE IS A QUESTION:  What is so bad and sinister in Ukraine that gives apparently ALL the motivation to leave the country, and hold it in such low regard? Colombian girls do not have it any better ... but they love their country and family and friends.  They would greatly prefer to NOT leave.

What have you seen in your few days that make you think they do? Life in Ukraine as in Russia I presume can be a hard scrabble life but nothing to make ALL or most want to leave. They love their country very much, most of them and have no desire to leave. The hard scrabble life is a way of life that they are most familiar with. How it appears to you is of no consequence to them. Any women willing to hitch her wagon to a man for escape is a woman to be avoided anywhere.

[IAmZon]

What have you seen in your few days that make you think they do? Life in Ukraine as in Russia I presume can be a hard scrabble life but nothing to make ALL or most want to leave. They love their country very much, most of them and have no desire to leave. The hard scrabble life is a way of life that they are most familiar with. How it appears to you is of no consequence to them. Any women willing to hitch her wagon to a man for escape is a woman to be avoided anywhere.

Point well taken!  Let's change this from a statement to a question ...


Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example).  By comparison, a Colombian woman certainly would believe this, and would take it as a compliment.   I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.   


So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

[Kuna]

Point well taken!  Let's change this from a statement to a question ...


Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example).  A Colombian woman certainly would believe this.   I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.   


So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

Tim,  the one best to answer that question would be Lily as she's the only one in here that I can think of that has left her country under her own steam. Everyone else is likely to sugar coat it.

[Eduard]

 

[CanadaMan]

...where their' routes are.

Cute combination!
... their roots... would work better though. 

[ECOCKS]

Point well taken!  Let's change this from a statement to a question ...


Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example).  By comparison, a Colombian woman certainly would believe this, and would take it as a compliment.   I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.   


So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

Still high. Maybe as high as it ever was since 20 years have taught a little more subtlety to those who are trying.

I am a little shocked in talking to some of those in my present location as I keep hearing them voice a long-term, discouraged POV on the state of affairs in their country.

Keep your radar turned on at high gain. Better to put up with some squawks from feedback and static bursts than to risk noticing something just under the surface.

[Faux Pas]

So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

100 women would likely have 100 different answers. The only perspective I could offer is that of a WM who has went to Russia which, offers little insight at all. But, from my standpoint I see only two sets and many subsets. The two sets are sincere and insincere. The subsets are too many to mention. The WM wish it is only one set and is only for love. Reality says this isn't true. The numbers of both are infinite.

The one we marry of course, is for romance, until it isn't  at which point, it is too late to matter. IIRC, we only have one member here at RWD who has reached an 11 year high water mark. A few that have made a 10 year mark and fizzled. It's a crap shoot and the odds are not in your favor regardless.

To your question, there is no answer. We (the men here) believe or want to believe it is the romance and you are the white knight in shinning armour. Many of the women on RWD have another completely different take. None of this matters, any of it. It's what you find with the one woman from FSU.

Man, I love talking in circles. 

[noelscot]

Not my experience, but just my own viewpoint - maybe I just got luckier.  I saw far more in Moscow. 
 
Any particular reason you "hated" Kyiv?  I can't remember how clearly you explained it in your own thread, unless it was simply "the girl."
 
Pardon?  Where were you (seriously)?  The only real "labyrinth" I saw at a street crossing was outside the main bus station.  Even most of the metro stations seem to come up for air in a fairly logical way (apart from the one where I tried to get out into the mall at the Maidan, and ended up halfway up Kreschatyk, not knowing which way to turn!).  All the other street crossings I saw were light-controlled - maybe we were just in different parts of the city?  FWIW, I only saw one labyrinth in Odessa - opposite the main railway station.  Moscow, on the other hand, does have a LOT!
 
Seems a bit jaded to me  , but I'm sure he'll pick up once Jack has him under his wing.
 
Just keep the reports coming, Tim - they're certainly "different."

Seeing as how I've never visited Moskva, ya ne znayu.


In Kyiv, I was on Kreshchatik at the corner of Schevchenko (directly across from Universal Bank) the first three days, then off Bessina the last day. Believe you me, there were many underground crossings.  The metro was no problem, except for the signs not being in English, but I knew enough Cyrillic to go through the motions. I did not have a good time there, suffice it to say.


I am rooting for Tim's trip report to be the trip report to end all trip reports. I.e., ochen horosho.

[alex330]

You'll see more eye candy in Odessa than Kyiv. I hated Kyiv.

My experience as well. Only been to Kiev twice but went out everywhere; lounges, nightclubs, restaurants, subway, etc. I did not see very many great looking women in Kiev to be honest. They were strutting all over Odessa. Kiev was a large sprawling city and people kept to themselves. Can't say I hated it, but very different feel.

So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

I think FP answers the question well. Many are not looking to get out. Those that may be looking for a WM may have had bad experiences at home and may be trying an alternative to the local scene like many of the guys here. Some with a child or bad situation may just want a more secure future.

[JohnDearGreen]

What have you seen in your few days that make you think they do? Life in Ukraine as in Russia I presume can be a hard scrabble life but nothing to make ALL or most want to leave. They love their country very much, most of them and have no desire to leave...

A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
would rather be somewhere else:


If you could live anywhere in the world, would you choose:
Ukraine 24.86%
Russia 2.16%
America 31.89%
Great Britain 9.73%
Another country 31.35%

[alex330]

Interesting poll. I did meet many guys while out with my wife that did express the desire to move to the US for work .
One Ukrainian guy I met was moving to Poland after a failed attempt at a better life here in the US. It was not what he had envisioned.

[Eduard]

Canada seems to be one of the top choices for Ukrainians who want to split. There is a very large Ukrainian community in Canada and even during Soviet times some immigration was allowed. I have worked with Canadian clients and Ukrainian women seem to be more positive about getting to know them than Americans.

[Boethius]

There was only a short period of reunification of families during Khrushchev's "thaw".  Even then, only very select Ukrainians were allowed to emigrate.  Before and after that, there was little emigration from the USSR to Canada.  However, Soviet Jews were allowed to emigrate, and where they ended up often depended on what countries were, at a particular time, willing to take them.

Here's a good book on the subject -

http://www.quillandquire.com/reviews/review.cfm?review_id=7147

[calmissile]

A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
would rather be somewhere else:


If you could live anywhere in the world, would you choose:
Ukraine 24.86%
Russia 2.16%
America 31.89%
Great Britain 9.73%
Another country 31.35%

Interesting poll.  I am curious about the demographics of the audience.  Can you post the link to the poll?

[IAmZon]

I will be honest with my prejudices and suppositions here.   I do not have any sacred cows.  Ukraine MAY BE Heaven or Hell, or both to different people.  HOWEVER, my "spider senses" tell me that this country is structurally F$cked - like most deep Eastern European countries.  The elites steel (and I mean HUGE amounts), and leave the citizens to fight for scraps.  There are few smiles on people's faces here!  Not socially scientific, but very telling

Comparatively, the government of the Dominican Republic is 100% more noble.  This country has invested vasts amounts in infrastructure, public transportation, and especially education for the young.  Hell, Colombia seems to have  a leg-up, because the middle class is growing and foreign investment is flooding in because of a much improved judiciary.

= So there is my prejudice. It is not firm =

Gonna meet a woman I met online tonight for diner.  ( Just in case some of you were beginning to worry about me ).   I expect her to be very suspicious of why I am here, and what I will be doing.  Learning from yesterday, I will not lie - I will just NOT tell the truth:)  I met her on Elenas Models.   I have not found other sites to be particularly responsive, and I am tired of online BS.

It looks like I have a whopping 10-12 dates lined up through agencies!  If one is to believe profiles, they are all remarkable women with English and no children.  That is a pretty LIGHT wife-hunter schedule.  But, increasingly, I do not want to meet many many women through agencies.  I will take a couple shots at the women that appeal to me very much, and then be as careful with them as they will be with me.  I assume I will meet other women along the way. 

In another 2 weeks, I will have my sea legs, and be an old salt

[calmissile]

rivardco,

 I will be curious if you meet any friendly UA guys in your travels, perhaps at a bar.  If so, please provide some details.

Your perception of Ukraine is pretty much what we have read from those that know the cutlure well.
In addition to the oligarchs being crooks, there seems to be a criminal mentality among a lot of young men as well.  Some have expressed that it is part of the culture to be clever to pull one over on someone or the government.  I only had one contact with someone that I thought was probably 'connected' but being a customer, I had no problem with him.

I had an intersting short conversation in the US a few days ago at a coffee shop.  The guy was Mexican with all the tattoos, etc and looked like a gang banger.  We were chatting about women and when I mentioned Ukraine he stated that he knew several local Ukraine men and advised me to stay away from them.  He said that they are all into criminal activity and are rather brutal.  Funny coming from a guy that looked like he could handle nearly anyone.   

When you have time you might enlighten us in some details on how you are able to get around from place to place without an interpreter.

[IAmZon]

I had an intersting short conversation in the US a few days ago at a coffee shop.  The guy was Mexican with all the tattoos, etc and looked like a gang banger.  We were chatting about women and when I mentioned Ukraine he stated that he knew several local Ukraine men and advised me to stay away from them.  He said that they are all into criminal activity and are rather brutal.  Funny coming from a guy that looked like he could handle nearly anyone.   
When you have time you might enlighten us in some details on how you are able to get around from place to place without an interpreter

Oh, I am pussy ... I have a guide here in the beginning of my trip.    But, to underscore the difference. I will say that I am a gringo that went deeper into the underbelly of Colombian night life than any one I know.  I handled myself very well.  Yeah, I was courageous AND stupid - LUCKY ACTUALLY. I became a little cocky as a result.   A couple weekends ago in Prague, I was in a similar situation - late night house club (who is in a club at 7:00AM in the morning except for bad girls, bad men, and me?!?)    That night I held stares that were not friendly; big, nasty, scary guys, and they were all in groups.  I realized this is a place not to be messed with ... a little caution please. 

Since then, I have made some phone calls with guys who used to live here - not wife hunters - and they say the same thing:
- turn down the volume. 
- Watch out/ avoid for the police. 
- Stay in a crowd. 
- Be a pussy. 

NOW I AM SURE that walking in the mall or park in the middle of the day is a different story!   But, we are talking about what the environment, in total, is REALLY like.

[Belvis]

A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
would rather be somewhere else:


If you could live anywhere in the world, would you choose:
Ukraine 24.86%
Russia 2.16%
America 31.89%
Great Britain 9.73%
Another country 31.35%

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

[Belvis]

   That night I held stares that were not friendly; big, nasty, scary guys, and they were all in groups.  I realized this is a place not to be messed with ... a little caution please.

Big, nasty, scary guys are not those who pose a real danger in FSU. You can have some troubles with drunken folks, but I don't think you are in position to run the risk of being attacked. Unless you want strongly the adventures, of course

[Kuna]

and they say the same thing:
- turn down the volume. 
- What out for the police. 
- Stay in a crowd. 
- Be a pussy. 

This is good advice...  if you turn down the volume and smile less they won't think you're a crazy man or loopy...  BUT, I challenge you to do this:

Go to a shop 3 days in a row... buy something - anything small, hand the money over with a completely straight face and when receiving your change pause for just the shortest moment, look them in the eye, and say thank you in Russian like you really mean it, turn and walk off.

You're very unlikely to get any reaction at all on the first day... the second day you may get a small reaction,  but eventually they will actively seek you out when they see you and they WILL be friendly.



When in Dnepropetrovsk last time I would take our eldest boy for a VERY early morning walk while Mama was still sleeping...  after a week my wife was asking, "Where are you going for so long?"  I told her I'd made friends with some of the old babushka's and shop keepers and she just didn't believe me.

The next morning she came on our morning walk with us and by the time we got home she said, "Everyone has turned just as crazy as you are.  First,  I don't know why you talk to them... now I don't know why they talk to you...  and most of all you're all crazy because none of you speak the same language."

I was having a ball breaking down those social barriers. 

I really believe those straight faced Ukrainians WANT to smile and feel happiness but they're all afraid everyone else will think they are crazy.  If you just "connect with them" - even strangers - you will really enjoy their company, and they will enjoy yours.

Have fun there Tim - this is a new world and there are many fun games an independent traveler can play!   

[JohnDearGreen]

Interesting poll.  I am curious about the demographics of the audience.  Can you post the link to the poll?

http://www.kievpost.net/votes/page/21/

[Shadow]

Point well taken!  Let's change this from a statement to a question ...


Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example).  By comparison, a Colombian woman certainly would believe this, and would take it as a compliment.   I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.   


So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?

Many people in the FSU underestimate their country and what is has to offer. It is part of the mindset. And as 99% of the non-FSU foreigners they meet are either hunting brides or doing business it will take a long time to change that.
But that does not mean they do not love their country or are looking for a way out.

[Eduard]

Tim,  the one best to answer that question would be Lily as she's the only one in here that I can think of that has left her country under her own steam. Everyone else is likely to sugar coat it.

I'm not nearly as smart or as pretty as Lily but I'll share my insight on this with you.


In my experience, in Russia, you will not meet many women who actually are looking to or are considering leaving Russia for another country if you take love and romance out of the equation. I can think of 3 reasons for this:

1. They love their country, their family and friends.
2. They usually enjoy their career and basically live a full, interesting life enjoying things like theater, movies, museums, bowling, pool, art, nature and travel.
3. Economy is in decent shape in Russia so many women who get their university degree or two (and a lot of them do) have relatively high paying jobs that afford them the opportunity to enjoy the things mentioned above, plus a car and even ownership of an apartment.
Things really did change tremendously in Russia compared to the 90s and early 2000s when many women would do anything to get out of there to have a chance at a decent life in the West. Those days are long gone, so get used to it.

I find that the only thing that really frustrates women who are not in a good relationship with a man is the fact that it is so hard to find a decent, non-drinking, non-cheating man in Russia and Ukraine who would like to be in a serious, monogamous relationship/marriage. Some Russian women will give a Western man a chance if they find him attractive, intelligent and interesting... they may even agree to leave everything behind and move to another country with him if they can envision having a solid relationship and kids with him.

I find that in Ukraine things didn't progress as nicely politically and economically speaking for general population compared to Russia. It's not as bad as it used to be in the 90s off course but still for most common folk life isn't as good as in Russia. many people are very frustrated with ramped corruption and the government led by an ex con. The bottom line is that many Ukrainians just don't see a bright, prosperous future in Ukraine for themselves no matter how hard they try because of the outside factors they can't control, hence you will find more people there who do want to "get out" and move to the West. Still I think that the majority would prefer to make a life at home where their' roots are.

[Gator]

The opinions vary among women about leaving their country.  And for those who do wish to emigrate, their reasons differ. 
 
My Cossack woman is happy with Mother Russia and that is why she turned down my marriage proposal years ago.   Reluctantly I then accepted the proposal from another RW who was eager to leave Russia.  Failing that, the Cossack woman and I renewed our relationship.  This time I insisted that she visit me,  She has several times.  She is ready, yet has concerns about starting a new life.

Rivardco, if you encounter a woman whom you like but moving from the FSU poses a challenge, I suggest you continue to pursue her.   It will take time, but you have time.   A "challenge" woman is good.