Ice Cube's Chance in Hell ...

[Gator]

Here in these places, the outcome IS ALMOST  ENTIRELY IN MY HANDS ( or yours). 

 
 
Henley penned it better in Invictus:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.       
 

You are writing after an evening with a lovely, intriguing woman.  Relax.  There will be many more such evenings now that you got off your ass and did something. 

 

[noelscot]

  These girls have a depth and intelligence that I have not seen anywhere else. 

Idealizing these women and treating them like princesses is the road to hell. Please write that down on a napkin or something. You're older than me and have a lot of life experiences and wisdom, but please don't drink the Kool Aid. It's laced with borsch and probably smetlana. They're just the same as all other women, except it's arguable that they are superior dissimulators and ballroom dancers.    


Anyway, I've been reading your trip report with much interest, because you're a worldly protagonist on an adventure. Hope it gets better and better!

[ECOCKS]

So I met a Dave at 8:00 PM and was supposed to meet "I" at 9:00 PM.   Had two beers and showed up at 9 till.  I waited until 5 after, and was ready to say let's party / chicks suck RAAAAA!   And, then, 'I said, let me check one more time.  And then I saw a woman MUCH MORE BEAUTIFUL AND TENDER than her photos would suggest. 

I prematurely held her and said, "Baby, I was waiting for 15 minutes, but I am happy to meet you".   I got the cold Russian thing at first.  Then,  she said ... I want to know you better.  So ... Four hours later, and some surgical dialogue; I have to say, NICE.  VERY NICE!  I enjoyed the process. I enjoyed that she surprised me with questions and critical evaluation.  I especially enjoyed the subject matter.  Early in the evening, I said "give me your hands"  She said why?  I said, "things like this can be read like a book. We already know we like each other.  I want to know how much.  Give me your hands now."  And, she did. 

I just put her in a taxi and called to make sure she got home OK. She will meet me tomorrow after work without delay.  And, IF I ONLY MET HER I would be happy with this trip. Does that mean I am easy?  I think not.  These girls have a depth and intelligence that I have not seen anywhere else. 

Do you want to know more about this relationship, or any other I might have?  It depends 90% on ME, not the environment, or the woman. Here in these places, the outcome IS ALMOST  ENTIRELY IN MY HANDS ( or yours). 

It is somewhat gluttonous to go on a "tour" that is full of these experiences. If I do not keep my wits about me, this could do me no good.

Oh boy........

Good luck Tim, hopefully a good night's sleep will bring you down to where your feet touch the ground.

[IAmZon]

Oh boy........
Good luck Tim, hopefully a good night's sleep will bring you down to where your feet touch the ground.

Oh no.   This girl is not for me!  I just enjoyed our time together ...
- she is agnostic
- she does not want to have children
- she is not close with her parents and sister.  Hmmm
- and, I really do not know anything about her (obviously)

What I do know is this
- she is very beautiful
- she is very intelligent
- she has a refined manner
- and she speaks her mind very directly

So, I was able to have a very intelligent / frank discussion ... I got farther in 30 minutes than I would have gotten with a Colombian woman in 5 weeks, in terms of developing an understanding (that is not an exaggeration).  WELL, IT WAS MORE THAN THAT ACTUALLY.

If I was excited, it was not this woman specifically, but an affirmation about my hopes about Eastern European / RW GENERALLY.  Last night reminded me of my first date with "O" - the woman that started all this for me 4 years ago - THAT is a very good sign.

And, the other point I made is important and has to do a little with gender and a little with self determination ... like Colombia (unlike the USA) this culture appears to yield to a man with confidence and a clear mind. That is all.

[Patagonie]

Oh no.   This girl is not for me!  I just enjoyed our time together ...
- she is agnostic
- she does not want to have children
- and, I really do not know anything about her (obviously)

What I do know is this
- she is very beautiful
- she is very intelligent
- she has a refined manner
- and she speaks her mind very directly

So, I was able to have a rather intelligent / frank discussion ... I got farther in 30 minutes than I would have gotten with a Colombian woman in 5 weeks, in terms of developing an understanding (that is not an exaggeration).  If I was excited, it was not this woman specifically, but an affirmation about my hopes of Eastern European women generally.  Last night reminded me of my first date with "O" - the woman that started all this for me 4 years ago - THAT is a good sign.

And, the other point, that is rather unlike the USA, is much of this IS WHAT YOU make it. 

That is all.

You are touching now the "soul" of FSU women. I am absolutely not the guy who puts a woman on a pedestal (just a little if she really desserves).
I have found them more intelligent than in my coutry, and also in many cases i have been sensitive to this refined manner. If you are easy with women you can open quiclky a special pipe that you usually hardly find in others places : a special male/female way to be, way to speak, way to stand, way to to express without speaking, something classy, something sweet but directly connected with testosterone also.

When you have a high sensitivity those women can provide you a high emotionnal flight.
Welcome in FSU.

[chivo]

Idealizing these women and treating them like princesses is the road to hell. Please write that down on a napkin or something.  They're just the same as all other women, except it's arguable that they are superior dissimulators and ballroom dancers.      

Bro, you recently had a bad first experience in Ukraine and, as such, are somewhat jaded at this time because of what you dealt with.
 
While I agree not to put these women on a pedestal, I do think you're missing the point. And that point is this...
 

You are touching now the "soul" of FSU women. I am absolutely not the guy who puts a woman on a pedestal (just a little if she really desserves).
I have found them more intelligent than in my coutry, and also in many case i have be sensitive to this refined manner. If you are easy with women you can open quiclky a special pipe that you usually hardly find in others places : a special male/female way to be, way to speak, way to stand, way to to express without speaking, something classy, something sweet but directly connected with testosterone also.

When you have a high sensitivity those women can provide you a high emotionnal flight.
Welcome in FSU.

Well said Pat.
 

You're older than me and have a lot of life experiences and wisdom, but please don't drink the Kool Aid. It's laced with borsch and probably smetlana.

This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana  .
 
Anyhow, I appreciate your effort to learn the language.

[chivo]

To the OP. Why do I get the impression that the woman you're looking to spend the rest of your life with doesn't exist?

[IAmZon]

To the OP. Why do I get the impression that the woman you're looking to spend the rest of your life with doesn't exist?

Because
I have had too much fun living as a bachelor, and it probably shows.
I am more picky than any man rightly deserves to be.
I am patient and have taken my time - much more time than most.
I am not manipulated by physical beauty.


And, I am Lazy in developing relationships.  For example, I should go buy an Ukrainian phone. But, when I do, the damn thing is going to ring all the time.  Some guys want it to ring.  I would rather place the call.


But, let's not write off my romantic aspirations just yet.  I deserve another couple weeks

[chivo]

Because
I have had too much fun living as a bachelor, and it probably shows.

I, probably more than anyone on this forum, understand what you're going through. I mean I have spent the last 8 years in Russia and I'm about your age. Nevertheless, I fear that you won't give anyone the real justice they deserve because of this fact not to mention your time constraints.
 
.

I am more picky than any man rightly deserves to be

No doubt, and I feel your pain. We want what we want but, I still can't help thinking that you've already met this lady, but something keeps telling you that an even more perfect one is still out there. Maybe, maybe not, but keep thinking this and you'll end up somewhere you really don't want to be. And that is "I should have..." land.
 

I am patient and have taken my time - much more time than most.

No, you just like the variety of young attractive women, I get it. Plus freedom is a tough thing for certain men to let go of, especially when you're knee deep in young attractive women.
 

I am not manipulated by physical beauty.

Yeah, me neither  . I mean how can one be manipulated by beauty in a place where it's so readily available to you. Again, I completely understand.
 
Thing is I live here, you don't.

And, I am Lazy in developing relationships.  For example, I should go buy an Ukrainian phone. But, when I do, the damn thing is going to ring all the time.  Some guys want it to ring.  I would rather place the call.
But, let's not write off my romantic aspirations just yet.  I deserve another couple weeks

Well, the first thing to figure out is yourself, so good for you.
 
And yes being inundated with calls from beautiful women is a nightmare, really, I'm serious. It f*cks with your head in all different kinds of ways that makes it hard to concentrate on what is important.
 
You seem to think that you have plenty of time, or that time is on your side. I, however, disagree. Good luck.

[calmissile]

 rivardco,

You definitely have the right attitude.  Do what's best for you!  Don't put up with any $hit from the pre-madonas and take your time to find one that is into you.... not anything else.  We admire your courage to stay the course and stay strong to your convictions.  Beauty may be only skin deep, but your long term goals seems to be under conrol.  Keep us posted on your impressions.

[IAmZon]

You seem to think that you have plenty of time, or that time is on your side. I, however, disagree. Good luck.

Interesting point.  Time is a stubborn thing

If I wanted more of a "young love" and a child rearing model where the whole family was "growing up together" ... well, that is gone.   And, if I wanted to force a square peg into a round hole with a rather young woman, 20 - 25 ... that is a challenge too.  BUT, as long as I stay in the correct age and league I am in now, and as long as I correctly understand what my next 25 years look like (and so does my prospective mate), well then, the sky is the limit:)   

It is too late for me to feel the need to "beat of the clock".  I know several guys - 5 - 10 years older than I (some from this board) that married fine RW 29 - 33, had babies, and are living very happy lives.

[Gator]

Rivardco,
 
You seem fixated on the age of 28.  Yes, the age lends itself better to conceiving children; however, I get the impression that such is not your primary reason for setting your sights at 28. 
 
You say you date women in the 20s because you can, and that is exactly what you have been doing for your adult life.  I have no propblem with that, and in fact I tip my hat to your ability.  You have been dating such women for a long, long time, and I imagine the total number is very large.    I find it odd that of these hundreds (maybe thousands) not one was suitable to think about marriage.  You say that is because of you.  However, could it also be because something is missing in that age group?   If yes, I don't know if the same age group in Ukraine will have what is missing in Colombian and American women.

[Eduard]

This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana  .

funny, this is exactly what I thought when I saw "smetlana" 

[IAmZon]

You seem fixated on the age of 28.  Yes, the age lends itself better to conceiving children; however, I get the impression that such is not your primary reason for setting your sights at 28. 

I looked for ages 28 - 34.  After that, there were slim pickens.   So, yes, 28 - 32 seems to be a place where the youth is not gone, and the maturity level is there in the age group too.

OF COURSE, I have dated some women over these last years.  However, I have not prioritized it.  Rather, I have prioritized experiences over romance.  Life Hunter more than Wife Hunter.   Some of the girls have been nice, but most have been a little on the "not wife material" side of things - if you know what I mean

[Kuna]

Oh no.   This girl is not for me!  I just enjoyed our time together ...
- she is agnostic
- she does not want to have children
- she is not close with her parents and sister.  Hmmm
- and, I really do not know anything about her (obviously)

I love this...  I really do.

Tim,

I hope you've written down the things you are looking for in a new life (and yes, a better life) because I suspect you'll have times during your trip where you will lose perspective and will need to remind yourself.

If you felt great about meeting this lady (even though you've been able to "stay rational") it's possible after two, three or thirty of these meetings you'll be absolutely bamboozled.

I had a list and I had to refer back to it on occasion because it gets confusing (not because I met many, but I met two really lovely girls - and married one)...  but your list can be your stake in the ground... somewhere to come back to that reminds you of what you were REALLY looking for.

The list I had wasn't really about the qualities I was looking for in a girl - but rather the things I was seeking in myself AND a future relationship.

Your list may refer to her qualities, but the something I tried to consider was "How she would be with me",  and then "How we would be together". 

The woman is only part of the equation - we will (and should) change in a relationship and therefore we should be introspective before deciding what we want out of our future (better) life.

Before we marry some of us live "inappropriate" lives... for whatever reason - and therefore the girls we met were suitable for those times but not suitable for a life-long relationship, and maybe just not the type of girl we imagined would be the mother of our children. 

Those things in your past are not YOU, even if you're capable of them...  YOU are who you are capable of being when in the right relationship.  I think it's important to acknowledge it's time to move on and look for MORE out of life.

Now trust me... the shitty nappies and the sleepless nights don't seem fun at the time... but for me, I couldn't have had a better life without them.

I don't mean to lecture you but if you would have asked my friends/associates/ girlfriends or anyone who knew me before marriage they would never have believed I could be settled in a family with two children just a few years later.

The point is this... when you're thinking about a future relationship try not to measure girls by what you're use to...  try to measure yourself by what you want to become and then decide on who would fit that best.

I'm sure you've done this...  I'm sure you're not looking for just another girl that you could have met in the past... but I guess I'm advising you to stay a bit flexible on the "criteria" but be certain about what you're trying to find in yourself at the same time.

Finally,  I liked the fact that religion seems to be a part of your criteria... it was one of mine too - not so much that Church every Sunday was essential for me... but a shared Faith is a good basis for a marriage.

I'm enjoying your TR thus far...  don't listen to the amateurs who are here for a thrill...  you'll decide what you write and what you won't write...  but always remember my email address!   

All the best mate!

[IAmZon]

Gracias Kuna,  points well made. Futuristic visualization.  I have not approached this trip to Ukraine as a contest TO FIND.  It is to familiarize myself, and, of course lighting COULD strike (but, not in Kiev I doubt)

Actually, I am finding hay poco problema con mi programa.  Quality women seem to object to me taking a trip around Ukraine.  They seem to thing nothing is out there except more women.  And, that has thrown a monkey wrench in several otherwise promising relationships.

And, so this morning I further constricted my list of "meetings" ... I think I am around 6 - 8 now!   It is starting to seem both funny and natural to me that I am taking a "tour" and purposefully trying to meet less and less woman.  I value honesty an sincerity mostly these days.  And, it is funny to remind myself that this is not a stamp collection contest!  In the best of worlds there is only one that matters.

And there is "S" from Colombia, my young love, on my SKYPE being consistent day and night, showing me constant attention.

[Gator]

I hope you've written down the things you are looking for in a new life (and yes, a better life) because I suspect you'll have times during your trip where you will lose perspective and will need to remind yourself.

If you felt great about meeting this lady (even though you've been able to "stay rational") it's possible after two, three or thirty of these meetings you'll be absolutely bamboozled.

I had a list and I had to refer back to it on occasion because it gets confusing (not because I met many, but I met two really lovely girls - and married one)...  but your list can be your stake in the ground... somewhere to come back to that reminds you of what you were REALLY looking for.

The list I had wasn't really about the qualities I was looking for in a girl - but rather the things I was seeking in myself AND a future relationship.

Your list may refer to her qualities, but the something I tried to consider was "How she would be with me",  and then "How we would be together".

Excellent Kuna, and what I would expect given your analytical skills.
 
I had suggested something similar:
 

Before you take your trip I suggest that you develop a comprehensive set of criteria about what you want in a woman.   Ignore physical features.   The list should be long and detailed.  A criterion should not be "compatible personality" and instead break this down into various aspects of personality.  Consider all criteria that are important to your long and short-term happiness.
 
 

I further suggested that he leave this list at home, projecting he would return with a long list of women..  However, you are correct.  He should refer to it frequently throughout his trip.  Already he is spending a second date with a woman who he knows is not for him.   

[Gator]

And there is "S" from Colombia, my young love, on my SKYPE being consistent day and night, showing me constant attention.

Didn't you write a month or so ago that after years in Colombia you determined all women there were rotten?
 
Give me an H
Give me an O
Give me a   P
Give me an  E     
Give me a    L
Give me another E
Give me an S
Give me another S.
 
 
What do you have?

[noelscot]

Bro, you recently had a bad first experience in Ukraine and, as such, are somewhat jaded at this time because of what you dealt with.
 
While I agree not to put these women on a pedestal, I do think you're missing the point. And that point is this...
 Well said Pat.
 This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana  .
 
Anyhow, I appreciate your effort to learn the language.

Hm, maybe I am jaded. Da, nyet, ya ne znayu. 


This is the distilled version of what I'm trying to say: Familiarity doesn't breed contempt, it IS contempt. We enshrine FSUW because they are unfamiliar and novel, and we have contempt for local women because they are familiar. Then when the superiority and uniqueness of FSUW is questioned, we employ the "Russian soul" argument. I argue that yes, FSUW have different cultural traits and different languages, but they are essentially the same as all other women. Human nature is universal.  I like FSUW, too, but at the end of the day, I have not seen anything to indicate that they are any worse or better than, say, a French woman or an Italian woman. Now, if a man has a fetish for foreign women, then more power to him.  But it is blinkered selectivity to take an encounter with a small sample of FSUW, either good or bad, and ascribe negative or positive traits to ALL FSUW. Judge FSUW as individuals, not as a group.


In the main, I hope Tim has a great trip and I'm sure he will.  

[Daveman]

Hm, maybe I am jaded. Da, nyet, ya ne znayu. 


This is the distilled version of what I'm trying to say: Familiarity doesn't breed contempt, it IS contempt. We enshrine FSUW because they are unfamiliar and novel, and we have contempt for local women because they are familiar. Then when the superiority and uniqueness of FSUW is questioned, we employ the "Russian soul" argument. I argue that yes, FSUW have different cultural traits and different languages, but they are essentially the same as all other women. Human nature is universal.  I like FSUW, too, but at the end of the day, I have not seen anything to indicate that they are any worse or better than, say, a French woman or an Italian woman. Now, if a man has a fetish for foreign women, then more power to him.  But it is blinkered selectivity to take an encounter with a small sample of FSUW, either good or bad, and ascribe negative or positive traits to ALL FSUW. Judge FSUW as individuals, not as a group.


In the main, I hope Tim has a great trip and I'm sure he will.

I agree with you in principle here.  Women are women. FSUW are neither better nor worse than AW, or WhomeverW.  There is, however, differences in mentality between specific subgroups even when group is group.  I think this mentality does touch ALL RW while individually varying to greater or lesser degree. This mentality is neither good nor bad but simply is.


That being typed, IMO, you are almost correct with the bold statement.  Try it this way:


But it is blinkered selectivity pretty damned stupid to take an encounter with a small sample of FSUW, either good or bad, and ascribe negative or positive traits to ALL FSUW.

[Doll]

 .  This mentality is neither good nor bad but simply is.


 

Huge improvement! Before you said RW were weird.

[Daveman]

Huge improvement! Before you said RW were weird.

LoL..  I happen to like weird. It's my normality.    You obviously know that by now. 

[IAmZon]

Didn't you write a month or so ago that after years in Colombia you determined all women there were rotten?

Often times we speak in generalities here.   Colombianas that most gringos are likely to meet - online; popular tourists destinations; agencies - tend to (strongly tend to) be "looking for something" and advantage - son interesadas.  More disturbing is that 90% lie straight forwardly, or they are very reluctant to speak directly and proactively ... so there are lies of omission.   


As a result of spending MUCH time in Colombia, certainly I have met some good people, and women too.


I know other men, BTW, that simply "got lucky" with online dating and using agencies in Colombia - more than I would have guessed.

[Misha]

I would say that luck is irrelevant. Perhaps they were not just "lucky" but simply put the time and effort into wooing a woman when they found a keeper 

[IAmZon]

I will leave Kiev today.  I never prefer Capital cities, and this experience did nothing to change that position. The last 5 days allowed me to catch up on work and rest.

I have been in a couple apartments, restaurants, churches, small food stores ect...  I have met a couple girls.   I have had a maid come to my apartment to take my laundry.  Admittedly, I have had limited experience.  But, the service seems to be on the low side.  There is a weight on most people here and you can see it in their eyes.  Quality of life in the center of the city would be hard to tolerate for longer than a week, or two. 

Is there not another area of the city where the normal, middle / upper class (non criminal) element live - or is this it?

I have 1 (one) agency meeting in Kharkov; 4 (four) in Poltava.  I will be in those cities for 6 days. 
===