Ice Cube's Chance in Hell ...

[SFandEE]

BTW - anybody with worthy good information on Poltava TELL ME.  Here or on PM.  I don't want to waste any time with half truths!
I am leaving by train tomorrow.
 seriously.

Sounds like Poltava is going well other than perhaps an intimidating late night arrival.  My first day there I found myself turned around a bit.  My experience with Poltava was mostly positive with a lot of well-educated, friendly, sincere people.  I am glad you are having a good start too.  It really sounds like you have a practical plan and are getting some good experiences.


Some of the expenses that you incur are going to result in nothing, perhaps experience.  I think it is entirely possible to work with someone with less than sincere intentions and get a good outcome.  It's dating after all. 


Continued good success and I look forward to hearing more.  The first time I visited Ukraine was during May and I found it to be a great time with festivals and celebrations.

[IAmZon]

==== The MOB Agency "Industry" ====

Well, there is more than meets the eye here, and none of it is particularly good.

On Friday, I found myself in a 2nd rate office pit (by Ukrainian standards), surrounded by 10 computers and translators, busy writing letters for women.  Hmmmm, where is fat Yuri. Or, is THIS fat Yuri?   Then, I used my contacts, and contacts of contacts, to meet with 3 agency owners and managers in Poltava.  It turns out that this little, nice city is a hot bed for MOB stuff.

I hear the same names and complaints from everybody - this is a soap-opera of which I want no part LOL

And, make NO mistake, the average MOB client is not respected by the agency owners / managers.  Do you think they should be?  I have heard every story under the sun about foreign women and gringos, so I was not surprised.  Suffice to say, that REGARDLESS of your particular situation, an agency girl / or, perhaps most girls from this country, are, and should be, more than a little leery of a foreigner's intentions. The waters are muddy.

Those tours are really the kiss of death because they create such a feeding frenzy mentality within the local service providers.  When a group of 10 guys comes to town and each guy has 10 "dates" with translator (they prefer to have a translator for the first meeting whether it is necessary, or not), that is 3 - 4 THOUSAND DOLLARS. A huge chuck of money for small Ukrainian company.  Also, it is impossible for a quality woman not to feel disenchanted by the whole experience.

Always, only a handful of ladies have the magic pictures to stimulate foreigners to travel on her account.  What do you think a lady thinks who has received 3 - 5 men to travel to the middle of no-where basically for her?

And, then there is financial incentives that client's interest.  Pay the pretty girl some money to show up and be nice.   Smooze the client with a recommendation for a special recommendation for one more meeting.  There is an endless set of scenarios where the client is at a disadvantage.

And, then there are the portals - the large web sites like AFA, CharmingBrides, etc.. just BS internet businesses - that charge a middle man fee ( or two, or three) and want to keep the hood on the client.  Assume an AFA has a client that is scheduled to meet 20 girls in two or three cities (and they make a little cut on everything), how happy are they going to be if a guy says I like number 3, please cancel the remainder? FURIOUS.  They will tell you, "This is BAD.  It is not fair to the woman who has agreed to meet you, and who now is dreaming of meeting you with an open heart, and will cry for 2 months upon hearing the news that the man in the photo has changed his mind.  She is so delicate, and was so hopeful!  Although she has grown up in Ukraine, I do not know if she can survive this!"

Now I have been lucky (I think).   I have not spent too much money or too much time to get where I am.  But, I have seen enough to believe that the title of this thread is more accurate than I first imagined - it really is an ICE CUBE'S CHANCE IN HELL.

There is only two solutions to this: 1, TIME 2, LUCK

[ECOCKS]

And verily I say unto thee....

that indeed the sun shall rise and by its light you shall see the charlatans in their true form.

For just as the prophets must search the wastelands and encounter temptation in its own den to understand the truth, thou must wander the land for [almost] 40 days and 40 nights that these things will be revealed unto thee.

Hold fast to thy bosom your beliefs and the teachings we have imparted to thee, continuing on the journey towards true enlightenment!

[noelscot]

==== The MOB Agency Industry ====

Well, there is more than meets the eye here, and none of it is particularly good.

On Friday, I found myself in a 2nd rate office pit (by Ukrainian standards, surrounded by 10 computers and translators, busy writing letters for women.  Hmmmm, where is fat Yuri. Or, is THIS fat Yuri?   Then, I used my contacts, and contacts of contacts, to meet with 3 agency owners and managers in Poltava.  It turns out that this little, nice city is a hot bed for MOB stuff.

I hear the same names and complaints and angles from everybody - this industry is a soap-opera. And, make NO mistake, the average MOB client is not respected by the agency owners / managers.  Do you think they should be?  I have heard every story under the sun about foreign women and gringos, so I was not surprised.  Suffice to say, that REGARDLESS of your particular situation, an agency girl / or, perhaps most girls from this country, are and should be more than a little leery of a foreigner's intentions.

Those tours are really the kiss of death because they create such a feeding frenzy mentality within the local service providers.  When a group of 10 guys comes to town and each guy has 10 "dates" with translator (they prefer to have a translator for the first meeting whether it is necessary, or not), that is 3 - 4 THOUSAND DOLLARS. A huge chuck of money for small Ukrainian company.

Always, only a handful of ladies have the magic pictures to stimulate foreigners to travel on her account.  What do you think a lady thinks who has received 3 - 5 men to travel to the middle of no-where basically for her?

And, then there is financial incentives that are not in the client's interest.  Pay the pretty girl some money to show up and be nice.   Smooze the client with a recommendation for a special recommendation for one more meeting.  There is an endless set of scenarios where the client is at a disadvantage.

And, then there are the portals - the large web sites - that charge a middle man fee and want to keep the hood on the client.  Say AFA has a client that is scheduled to meet 20 girls in two or three cities (and they make a little cut on everything), how happy are they going to be if a guy says I like number 3, please cancel the remainder? FURIOUS.  They will tell you, "This is BAD.  It is not fair to the woman who has agreed to meet you, and who now is dreaming of meeting you with an open heart, and will cry for 2 months upon hearing the news that the man in the photo has changed his mind.  She is so delicate, and was so hopeful!  Although she has grown up in Ukraine, I do not know if she can survive this!"

There is only one solution to this - TIME.

A village girl I met used to live in Poltava. After she graduated from university she translated for MOB socials.  She told me two things she did not like about the foreign men. First, she did not like how they thought all Ukrainian women were poor and needed rescuing. Second, she thought it was absurd to see huge age gaps. (But generally, there was a taint associated with being one of the tour guys.) Anyway, it was like talking to a magician's assistant, because the veil was pulled back.

You have been there about a fortnight now, I guess, and reached the same conclusion(s) that I did--being viewed as a "tourist" adversely affects your chances of finding sincere women and time starts working against you.

My trip was only 16 days, and you have a LOT more time. I hope you can use time to your advantage and make some lasting friendships and maybe find a special lady.

I see a business visa for Ukraine in your future...after your exfiltration from Ukraine, of course. 

[IAmZon]

Just about time for me to start using my "grown-up" voice?


I have been fun-loving and "nice" since I have been in Ukraine - very respectful and gentle.  OK, I get it!  Most business people are out to screw me. I went to drop off my laundry today.  If I was not in the shoe store to buy shows, nobody could help me.  If I was not in the telephone store to buy telephones, nobody could help me.  I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars)  OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS 


(Side Rant.  So, let me get this straight!   I have just bounced around South America, and in the beginning I was totally lost.  I was in jungles, drug lords homes, etc...    AND just when I become competent at Spanish and am able to climb the social ladder there, I come to Ukraine?!?!?    There is something wrong with all of us.     Funny, every time I begin to struggle with communication here, I speak in English, then Spanish - both are usually useless)

[Hammer2722]

I have been fun-loving and "nice" since I have been in Ukraine - very respectful and gentle.  OK, I get it!  Most business people are out to screw me. I went to drop off my laundry today.  If I was not in the shoe store to buy shows, nobody could help me.  If I was not in the telephone store to buy telephones, nobody could help me.  I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars)  OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS 

This is why I always made sure that the apartments I rented always had a working washer in it. Unfortunately, you will sometimes run into some Ukrainians that will try to screw you if they can......

[Gator]

  I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars)  OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS 

I have been with RW who took their clothes to a dry cleaner.  The prices charged to them were higher than what I pay in Tampa, even though dry cleaning is a labor intensive business and Russian labor rates are low.   It made me think of two possible explanations:  "collusion" or "monopy."  Learn to wash your own clothes, or ask "I" to help you.   
 

AND just when I become competent at Spanish and am able to climb the social ladder there, I come to Ukraine?!?!?    There is something wrong with all of us.   

Us?  Admittedly, we men are different for attempting this endeavor.  Some of us, however, are more different.  Maybe this time you will not ride the merry-go-round for years and years.

[Gator]

A village girl I met used to live in Poltava. After she graduated from university she translated for MOB socials.  She told me two things she did not like about the foreign men. First, she did not like how they thought all Ukrainian women were poor and needed rescuing.

Years ago a RWD committee of men and women wrote a set of guidelines for men's behavior when dating FSUW.   Daveman surveyed a number of FSUW who had dated foreign men .   The guidelines total a few pages yet can be summarized in one word, respect.
 
The guidelines are here:
 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=24
 
 

[Gylden]

LOL,
 
Sorry to hear, but honestly man you've been bopping around the world for how long now?
You've got to chock this one up as your own fault for not asking the price before you give them your clothes. It is a basic rule when out of your home base.
Don't ask......can be a surprise!
If you never experienced this sort of thing in SA, I would say you were incredibly lucky.
 
Anyway my advice is to shake it off, realise that it is mostly your own fault and get back to what is important. Make sure you are a little more on your toes next time.

[CanadaMan]

LOL,
 
Sorry to hear, but honestly man you've been bopping around the world for how long now?
You've got to chock this one up as your own fault for not asking the price before you give them your clothes...
Don't ask......can be a surprise!
...Make sure you are a little more on your toes next time.

Gylden, it is my understanding from what Riv wrote, that he did not have his clothes cleaned by the cleaners. He'll need to clarify.

[Gylden]

Could be, I wasn't sure myself, but I figured he did or why be upset?
After all this sort of thing happens around the world. When someone gives you such a "deal" because of your accent, then it is just to say no and try another cleaners. Not to mention it can be very positive to ask pone of the beautiful ladies to assist you in finding a cleaner who won't take you to the cleaners!
 

[Hammer2722]

My understanding also was that he did not use their services and "kindly" asked for his clothes back. lol

[Gylden]

You guys are probably right, but if so then what I said needs to be applied in a double dose. No harm, no foul. Why get upset?
 
Why the cleaner issue hit me was as follows.
 
Last year my wife and I bought a sailboat in Athens. Our first cruise was for six weeks and when we were finished we decided to put some things in storage there, so we would not have to cart them back and forth. There were quite a few clothing items which we needed to clean before we put the to storage. We had to go to 3 shops before we found someone who would give us a "normal" price. We didn't get angry, just understood that it is normal in most places. We laughed and actually enjoyed the character of the proprietor who finally gave us the "local" price.
 
I think Rivardco is just upset with the fact that he put himself in the position of being used by the agencies and lost a bit of control.
 
I just wanted to call attention to it and of course it is just from my view.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars)  OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS 

Ukrainians have a certain "greed" stigma.  haha

I was renting an apartment for over a year and a half.  I believe it was an apartment that was mainly rented out during the summer months since it was somewhat close to the beach.  Basically she made most of her money during the peak season.  She wanted someone in more long term and I was the person for the job.

Towards the end of my tenure there, she tried to raise the rent 200 USD.  Her dad lived next to us and we were giving him the money as she wanted.  Apparently, he never passed on the rent or only partial amounts.

She decided that we should give her the rent and she would need to make up for her losses by charging us 200 more.  We ended up moving out and spending 4 months in India.  She made our vacation decision for us.

She probably lost a lot more money because of an empty flat.  Tourist season was about 5 months away. 

That type of logic was pretty common there.

[IAmZon]

77 dollars WITHOUT dry cleaning, actually.  I asked politely for directions several times.  I asked politely for clarification on the price, at least.  Get mad?  Loose Control?  You have to be referring to somebody else.  I just gave her my ""this aint my first time to the rodeo" face.  Then, the good news to please go get my cloths now.  Chau!

It's all good to me!  I am not an a$$.  I do not mind getting bumped around.  But, I know where I stand now.  From here on out, I will certainly be friendly and respectful; but, it is time for me to get respect too!  So that part of the game is over ...

[calmissile]

rivardco

Your 'on the ground' reporting is very valuable to many of us that will going to Ukraine this summer.  Keep up reporting the details.
I plan to be following in your footsteps in a couple months and plan on staying for 2-3 months.  I also plan to 'set up shop' in several cities and stay for a week or so in each one.

The difference is that I have been to Ukraine before, however I was tethered to my G/F the entire time.  As I read your posts, this was a huge advantage for me for many reasons.  I am not surprised by any of your experiences.  It is very clear that most merchants, taxis, etc. are going to take advantage of you.  I saw the same thing when I would walk into a store alone and see the $$$ light up in the merchants eyes.  When she was with me it happened rarely and she would put them in their place very quickly!

In order to avoid this sort of thing, I am going to try a similar approach on my trip this summer.  The difference is that instead of having a G/F at my side, I plan to find a interpreter/guide that will take care of any business transactions and clearly be expected to operate in my best interests.  She could also accompany me to any social events so that I am not uncomfortable or taken advantage of.  She might even have local friends to introduce me to for dates, etc.

I am wondering if you have had any luck in meeting women in stores, restraints, waitresses, etc. that have any interest in dating you?  I can understand your disdain for the 'marriage agencies' now that you have had a look inside them and discovered their motives and how they work.  That is why I think it might be a better for me to develop some local friends and meet other locals through networking with a few that might be friendly.  Like I mentioned earlier in another post, if you are interested in the culture and want to experience it, you need to find a friend that will invite you to the homes of some locals.  Usually only a small gift is appropriate to take with you.  In my previous experiences in Ukraine, families are very friendly and once in their homes they are very curious about me and America and have questions that can last for hours.  There is nothing like a comfortable setting in the homes of locals.  They seemed to want to do everything they can to be great hosts.  It is entirely different than the lack of respect and greed that you experience with the merchants.

Keep the info coming.

[Eduard]

A village girl I met used to live in Poltava. After she graduated from university she translated for MOB socials.  She told me two things she did not like about the foreign men. First, she did not like how they thought all Ukrainian women were poor and needed rescuing. Second, she thought it was absurd to see huge age gaps. (But generally, there was a taint associated with being one of the tour guys.) Anyway, it was like talking to a magician's assistant, because the veil was pulled back.

You have been there about a fortnight now, I guess, and reached the same conclusion(s) that I did--being viewed as a "tourist" adversely affects your chances of finding sincere women and time starts working against you.

My trip was only 16 days, and you have a LOT more time. I hope you can use time to your advantage and make some lasting friendships and maybe find a special lady.

I see a business visa for Ukraine in your future...after your exfiltration from Ukraine, of course. 

Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?

[Admin]

Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?

Knock it off Ed. Your attempts at 'digging' are transparent and I am in no mood.

- Dan

[Gator]

I am wondering if you have had any luck in meeting women in stores, restraints, waitresses, etc. that have any interest in dating you?

I am not sure Tim is into S&M. 

[Gator]

 

In order to avoid this sort of thing, I am going to try a similar approach on my trip this summer.  The difference is that instead of having a G/F at my side, I plan to find a interpreter/guide that will take care of any business transactions and clearly be expected to operate in my best interests.  She could also accompany me to any social events so that I am not uncomfortable or taken advantage of.  She might even have local friends to introduce me to for dates, etc.

Doug, now I am serious.
 
I found it best to visit just one women per city.  I have done this several times.  Two times I encountered a "no show."  All other times were ideal. 
The woman happily showed me her city, made sure I could find my apartment, researched "What to Do" regarding concerts, restaurants, etc., translated, and attended to any needs of local services (camera battery, pharmacy, etc.).   It required communication and interaction as if we were a couple.  Very revealing.  And it was free, in a sense.  I always left them with a nice present. 
 
3-4 days is enough.   You can part ways, and each of you can think about the experience.    Also, there is the possibility that the woman is not as compatible as you believed when making the date so you do not want to schedule a week.   Along this line, this approach requires having a high degree of confidence in the intentions and compatibility of the host woman, i. e.,  spend much time on the phone before making the trip.

[Vinnvinny]

In my previous experiences in Ukraine, families are very friendly and once in their homes they are very curious about me and America and have questions that can last for hours.

I think I would be tempted to interrupt a question that was lasting more than an hour and request that they get to the point more quickly. You're too polite Doug. 

[calmissile]

I am not sure Tim is into S&M. 

Must have picked the wrong choice in spell checker.   

[Gator]

I think I would be tempted to interrupt a question that was lasting more than an hour and request that they get to the point more quickly. You're too polite Doug. 

Time flies when papa is pouring the vodka,  asking the questions, and showing his gold-tooth smile.

[calmissile]

Gator,

Your description in the first paragraph is ideal if you have met someone that speaks English and you are a 'couple'.  There is no need for an interpreter or guide at this point.

I think you may not understand fully my intentions and expectations for my summer trip.  I am not taking the trip 'wife hunting'.  Previously, I really enjoyed the culture of the Ukrainian people once away from the dating and 'wife hunting' environment.  From what I read on the forum this seems to be something not experienced very much by those men that are out to seek a wife in a aggressive manner.  I understand the limited time men have and why many of them do not have time to 'slow down and smell the roses' of what the Ukrainian people have to offer.  I was very lucky in a sense that I was able to live on a Ukrainian farm and meet many of the neighbors and interact with them.  It allowed me the experience to learn what real life is like among the Ukrainian people.  It is soooooo  different than what you experience as someone that is holed up in an apartment or having limited contact with the locals.

I decided to make this trip different from my previous trips for several reasons.  I am going without any serious ties to any one woman.  I am going on a vacation to further enjoy the culture and experience more of the 'real' Ukraine.  I have no expectations of finding a FSU wife.  If it happens, it happens but if not, then I will not be angry at myself for a wasted trip.  I already have friends from my previous trip that have invited me to stay with them.  They have already indicated that they have some potential dates for me.  It is a middle aged couple and a wonderful family and I had a ball at their place last year which included going to their dacha and hunting mushrooms.  For me, this is much more interesting than going to marriage agencies or trying some artificial method of meeting women.  Once you have friends that are locals, networking seems to be something I want to try as an experiment and see how it goes.

Your advice about getting to know each other very well on Skype, etc before my trip is something I am NOT going to do.  There are several women that want to meet when I am in Ukraine.  I do not want to create expectations from either side prior to meeting.  Some of them I can eliminate due to incompatibility issues in advance (such as adult children that are mama boys that must come with mama to the US).  For those that seem to be compatible, I will visit and see if chemistry is mutual.  If lightning strikes, I can always change my schedule and spend much more time with one lady.  I realize my approach this time is much different than most men are choosing as a strategy.  It is OK.  I already tried the conventional approach and wish not to repeat it.

I am interested in our current 'man on the ground' because one thing I never had the opportunity to discover is how difficult it is to meet women that you would find as casual customers at a restaurant or pub, etc. in the villages or smaller cities.   Hence, it seems that there may be two avenues for meeting women or getting dates (for me).  One is through causal meeting in public places and the other is through networking.  If nothing else, I expect to have a very nice, relaxed vacation.

[noelscot]

Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?

I did not go on any tours in Ukraine, nor did I use agencies. I employed the services of Jack Bragg and his associate Val for apartments, travel arrangements, etc. I think very highly of Jack and Val. Both of them are trustworthy in my book.